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Thread: Rapturous Samadhi?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Andrew,

    Have we not tried to answer in some detail?

    We don't worry about, yet very much welcome, such Blissful moments. Kensho as well. These are treasured.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SaTTodayLAH
    Yes, and between the variety of responses here and your dharma talk I'm pretty happy about it.

    Gassho,

    -Andrew-

    Satlah
    Last edited by A.J.; 08-09-2020 at 06:36 PM.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc View Post
    It's not that there is a work that someone might have a mystical moment - or a kensho experience - it's just that in this specific flavor of Zen, we don't chase after such experiences. We accept them, and then move on. They aren't signs that we're somehow achieving anything, because the only achievement we seek is to sit and accept what arises.

    Gassho,

    Kirk
    I understand not chasing. I wonder about the concept of "cultivation" popular in meditative traditions and whether Zen ever intentionally "cultivates" anything since it does seem there is a difference between overt chasing and cultivation of qualities. The highest achievement being to accept and let go of whatever arises also sounds like a sort of cultivating... say... the cultivation of divine indifference.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  3. #53
    Member Onka's Avatar
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    Hi Andrew
    My first reply to you was a bit dismissive and I apologise for that however I didn't lie, Shikantaza is very physically painful for me.
    I've been quite unwell this year and sat a LOT in hospital on the four occasions I ended up there. I didn't mention it in my initial response to you because you were asking about rapturous samadhi but yes I have had a Kensho experience but I didn't really know it. It was only after describing it to Jundo privately that he named it for me. My reaction, which I'm sure he expected was "oh well, I'll just keep sitting" or something similar. Yes, it has had a profound impact on me. Yes, I would say that it changed me permanently in a positive way, but in no way would I describe it as rapturous or blissful. I don't chase it, I still find Shikantaza extremely painful, and I'm sure I still annoy my partner just as much as before.
    I didn't want to divulge this publicly but as the topic has come up in the Zazenkai as well I thought that you needed a reply that wasn't too "Zenny".
    Be well my friend
    Gassho
    Onka
    ST
    穏 On (Calm)
    火 Ka (Fires)
    They/She.

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Onka View Post
    Hi Andrew
    My first reply to you was a bit dismissive and I apologise for that however I didn't lie, Shikantaza is very physically painful for me.
    I've been quite unwell this year and sat a LOT in hospital on the four occasions I ended up there. I didn't mention it in my initial response to you because you were asking about rapturous samadhi but yes I have had a Kensho experience but I didn't really know it. It was only after describing it to Jundo privately that he named it for me. My reaction, which I'm sure he expected was "oh well, I'll just keep sitting" or something similar. Yes, it has had a profound impact on me. Yes, I would say that it changed me permanently in a positive way, but in no way would I describe it as rapturous or blissful. I don't chase it, I still find Shikantaza extremely painful, and I'm sure I still annoy my partner just as much as before.
    I didn't want to divulge this publicly but as the topic has come up in the Zazenkai as well I thought that you needed a reply that wasn't too "Zenny".
    Be well my friend
    Gassho
    Onka
    ST
    Thank you for your thoughts.

    Gassho,

    -Andrew-

    Satlah

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I understand not chasing. I wonder about the concept of "cultivation" popular in meditative traditions and whether Zen ever intentionally "cultivates" anything since it does seem there is a difference between overt chasing and cultivation of qualities. The highest achievement being to accept and let go of whatever arises also sounds like a sort of cultivating... say... the cultivation of divine indifference.
    From what I've read, Rinzia tends to cultivate these experiences, and expects them to occur as stages along the path. But this is just what I understand from reading, most recently, Peter Matthiesen's Nine-Headed Dragon River, when he got into Rinzai zen early on. (He later switched to Soto zen.)

    I wouldn't use the term "indifference;" that sounds a bit judgmental. I'd say simply acceptance of what happens, without giving it any special value.

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat
    流文

    I know nothing.

  6. #56
    I understand not chasing. I wonder about the concept of "cultivation" popular in meditative traditions and whether Zen ever intentionally "cultivates" anything since it does seem there is a difference between overt chasing and cultivation of qualities. The highest achievement being to accept and let go of whatever arises also sounds like a sort of cultivating... say... the cultivation of divine indifference.
    It is more of a dropping away of chasing rather than cultivating.

    Other aspects of Zen practice do talk about cultivating, such as the cultivation of compassion. Shikantaza, not so much.

    I came to Treeleaf from Tibetan Buddhism and found I had to drop a lot of what I thought I knew about meditation in order to appreciate Zen practice.


    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-

  7. #57
    Cultivating, "becoming better", "moving towards a goal"; I understand these concepts make sense in other traditions including Theravada. In Soto zen though, the non-evaluating, goallessness aspects of practice are vital. It is not like people are not open to discussing experiences but more like trying to point you to the right teaching from Zen perspective

    There's plenty here if you are open to learning: https://antaiji.org/en/services/kodo-to-you/

    Gassho,
    Sam
    ST
    Last edited by shikantazen; 08-09-2020 at 10:37 PM.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    In Soto zen though, the non-evaluating, goallessness aspects of practice are vital. It is not like people are not open to discussing experiences but more like trying to point you to the right teaching from Zen perspective
    Gassho2, meian st lh


    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    My life is my temple and my practice.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc View Post
    From what I've read, Rinzia tends to cultivate these experiences, and expects them to occur as stages along the path. But this is just what I understand from reading, most recently, Peter Matthiesen's Nine-Headed Dragon River, when he got into Rinzai zen early on. (He later switched to Soto zen.)

    I wouldn't use the term "indifference;" that sounds a bit judgmental. I'd say simply acceptance of what happens, without giving it any special value.

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat
    From what I've read related to the history of Zen at one time these schisms according to school did not exist and Zen was even mixed with Pure Land practices but as schools emerged they became politicized emphasizing differences in competition for adherents. I think possibly some of what is specifically Soto might not have developed if it wasn't for antagonism with Rinzai.

    "Divine indifference" sounds similar to "acceptance without special value" to me but nevertheless, no judgement, just bouncing off ideas and trying to learn something.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah
    Last edited by A.J.; 08-10-2020 at 01:57 AM.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    It is more of a dropping away of chasing rather than cultivating.

    Other aspects of Zen practice do talk about cultivating, such as the cultivation of compassion. Shikantaza, not so much.

    I came to Treeleaf from Tibetan Buddhism and found I had to drop a lot of what I thought I knew about meditation in order to appreciate Zen practice.


    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
    I spent a few years going to a Soto temple regularly when I lived near one, checked out Shambhala for a year before they had their scandal, as well as dabbled in Tibetan Buddhism and Vipassana. My reading has been pretty broad but I don't necessarily think I know much about meditation. I just explore perspective, practice and see what comes up.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    It is more of a dropping away of chasing rather than cultivating.

    Other aspects of Zen practice do talk about cultivating, such as the cultivation of compassion. Shikantaza, not so much.
    And, of course, we goallessly go step by step, staying in healthful directions (sitting, avoiding excess desire, anger etc.), moving along the path. The raw beginner is as much "Buddha" as the fellow practicing 30 (or 30,000) years. We encounter all we encounter along the path, then bow and keep moving. There is no place to "go" because the whole path and every step is Buddha too.

    And yet, and yet ... it's likely that the fellow who has been walking 30 years is better skilled at realizing the meaning of "all Buddha," more understanding of "no place to go," and more experienced in keeping in healthful directions step by step than the fellow who has only been practicing for a day.

    There is "no place to go," but that does not mean we don't get some place.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-10-2020 at 06:13 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    Cultivating, "becoming better", "moving towards a goal"; I understand these concepts make sense in other traditions including Theravada. In Soto zen though, the non-evaluating, goallessness aspects of practice are vital. It is not like people are not open to discussing experiences but more like trying to point you to the right teaching from Zen perspective

    There's plenty here if you are open to learning: https://antaiji.org/en/services/kodo-to-you/

    Gassho,
    Sam
    ST
    I'm checking out your link.
    I don't have a particular goal or end in mind when I meditate so my inquiry isn't quite that but...

    might not one run into: the goal of not having a goal, achieving the goalless, cultivating goallessness?

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    And, of course, we goallessly go step by step, staying in healthful directions (sitting, avoiding excess desire, anger etc.), moving along the path. The raw beginner is as much "Buddha" as the fellow practicing 30 (or 30,000) years. We encounter all we encounter along the path, then bow and keep moving. There is no place to "go" because the whole path and every step is Buddha too.

    And yet, and yet ... likely that the fellow who has been walking 30 years is better skilled at realizing the meaning of "all Buddha," more understanding of "no place to go," and more experienced in keeping in healthful directions step by step than the fellow who has only been practicing for a day.

    There is "no place to go," but that does not mean we don't get some place.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    I found this reply pretty poetic.
    No goal but still steps.

    Gasho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    From what I've read related to the history of Zen at one time these schisms according to school did not exist and Zen was even mixed with Pure Land practices but as schools emerged they became politicized emphasizing differences in competition for adherents. I think possibly some of what is specifically Soto might not have developed if it wasn't for antagonism with Rinzai.
    I am not sure that this is a the whole story historically. It is true that in China, Korea and Vietnam, Zen and Pure Land (as well as other practices from esoteric Buddhism and elsewhere) are more mixed together than in Japan. For various historical reasons, Rinzai, Soto and Pure land schools tended to go their own way more in Japan, although there was certainly a lot of mixing and matching in old Japan too (I was just reading yesterday about several lesser known Soto figures in the first generations after Dogen who mixed many traditions into their Soto Zen such as Shingon esoteric practices and Pure Land, and even some modern teachers like Uchiyama Roshi sprinkled in some chanting to Amida and such). Some of the differences among "schools" in Japan was exactly as you say, politics and the need to develop a "brand." That is true.

    However, in fact, since the time of the Buddha, it has been more a matter that individual teachers and other practitioners went their own ways even within the same "schools." Theravada Buddhists, Pure Land folks, Rinzai folks and even modern Soto teachers all have their own styles, mixing this and that, and can be rather critical of some others that they disagree with even in the same "school" or lineage. Each is a "mini-schism" , and thus we have the 10,000 (more like 1,000,000) flavors of "Buddhism." It is just human nature. No two chefs cook the chicken soup exactly the same way, and different tongues have different tastes.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I am not sure that this is a the whole story historically. It is true that in China, Korea and Vietnam, Zen and Pure Land (as well as other practices from esoteric Buddhism and elsewhere) are more mixed together than in Japan. For various historical reasons, Rinzai, Soto and Pure land schools tended to go their own way more in Japan, although there was certainly a lot of mixing and matching in old Japan too (I was just reading yesterday about several lesser known Soto figures in the first generations after Dogen who mixed many traditions into their Soto Zen such as Shingon esoteric practices and Pure Land, and even some modern teachers like Uchiyama Roshi sprinkled in some chanting to Amida and such). Some of the differences among "schools" in Japan was exactly as you say, politics and the need to develop a "brand." That is true.

    However, in fact, since the time of the Buddha, it has been more a matter that individual teachers and other practitioners went their own ways even within the same "schools." Theravada Buddhists, Pure Land folks, Rinzai folks and even modern Soto teachers all have their own styles, mixing this and that, and can be rather critical of some others that they disagree with even in the same "school" or lineage. Each is a "mini-schism" , and thus we have the 10,000 (more like 1,000,000) flavors of "Buddhism." It is just human nature. No two chefs cook the chicken soup exactly the same way, and different tongues have different tastes.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    I didn't think about how there could be some significant differences even within the same lineage. That adds some perspective.

    For some reason I can't quite put my finger on imaging people mixing and using what works as they interact with each other's practices seems more lively and dynamic whereas paring it all down to a particular school with only certain official teachings within that school feels ossified.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post

    For some reason I can't quite put my finger on imaging people mixing and using what works as they interact with each other's practices seems more lively and dynamic whereas paring it all down to a particular school with only certain official teachings within that school feels ossified.
    One can mix baseball with soccer and get the wonderful "kickball" that my daughter loves in elementary school. As well, football is a lovely sport, tennis is a lovely sport, baseball is a lovely sport and perhaps suited to different players to whom each calls. But here, I teach baseball. We don't play baseball with a football and a tennis racket.

    (By the way, some sports are no good for anybody: Soccer with bowling balls perhaps , especially in heading).



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    One can mix baseball with soccer and get the wonderful "kickball" that my daughter loves in elementary school. As well, football is a lovely sport, tennis is a lovely sport, baseball is a lovely sport and perhaps suited to different players to whom each calls. But here, I teach baseball. We don't play baseball with a football and a tennis racket.

    (By the way, some sports are no good for anybody: Soccer with bowling balls perhaps , especially in heading).



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Yeah, I came here because in the Buddhist world I've had the most direct contact with Soto, so I appreciate that. I'm also interested in the Buddhist tradition more broadly and sometimes I find some tensions in the points of view so I try to make some sense of it.

    Speaking of religion in general, their origins and syncretisms are usually more creative but as time goes on the various needs of becoming more of an establishment have a tendency to squelch some of the spirit of what actually moved people in days of yore.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  18. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    Speaking of religion in general, their origins and syncretisms are usually more creative but as time goes on the various needs of becoming more of an establishment have a tendency to squelch some of the spirit of what actually moved people in days of yore.
    Here too, I am going to say that people are people and have always been. We tend to romanticize the past and the "good old days." I think that Buddhist folks of the past were of all kinds, some very inspirational and many not so much, many in between. You might be pretty disappointed sometimes at how human and ordinary folks of the past where, even some of the folks around whom legends were built, if you ever climbed in a time machine and actually went back. On the other hand, these days I know A LOT of Zen and other Buddhist folks who "have the spirit." Some "mix and match" more than others, some stick more to one game.

    I could name the late, great Zen teacher and social activist Bernie Glassman Roshi, from a mixed Rinzai-Soto line, or Shunryu Suzuki who was a pretty straight Soto guy, or Okumura Roshi and his teachers "Homeless Kodo" Sawaki and Uchiyama (apart from his little Pure Land and Christian seasoning) who are all pretty straight Soto, and frankly, 10,000 more.

    Some mix and match, some play one game, all try to avoid heading bowling balls.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Here too, I am going to say that people are people and have always been. We tend to romanticize the past and the "good old days." I think that Buddhist folks of the past were of all kinds, some very inspirational and many not so much, many in between. You might be pretty disappointed sometimes at how human and ordinary folks of the past where, even some of the folks around whom legends were built, if you ever climbed in a time machine and actually went back. On the other hand, these days I know A LOT of Zen and other Buddhist folks who "have the spirit." Some "mix and match" more than others, some stick more to one game.

    I could name the late, great Zen teacher and social activist Bernie Glassman Roshi, from a mixed Rinzai-Soto line, or Shunryu Suzuki who was a pretty straight Soto guy, or Okumura Roshi and his teachers "Homeless Kodo" Sawaki and Uchiyama (apart from his little Pure Land and Christian seasoning) who are all pretty straight Soto, and frankly, 10,000 more.

    Some mix and match, some play one game, all try to avoid heading bowling balls.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    I don't intend to romanticize the past but whether it's an art movement or a religion it seems like the creativity is in the burgeoning origins and then to a greater or lesser degree degrades with institutionalization.

    But, here I'm speaking in very broad generalities and I'm sure access to a time machine would accrue many a' disappointment.

    I'll have to look more into some of those teachers you cited, more homework

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    Cultivating, "becoming better", "moving towards a goal"; I understand these concepts make sense in other traditions including Theravada. In Soto zen though, the non-evaluating, goallessness aspects of practice are vital. It is not like people are not open to discussing experiences but more like trying to point you to the right teaching from Zen perspective

    There's plenty here if you are open to learning: https://antaiji.org/en/services/kodo-to-you/

    Gassho,
    Sam
    ST
    I liked your link. I have enjoyed some writings of "homeless Kodo" before. Thanks for the cool find.

    Gassho,

    Andew,

    Satlah

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I don't intend to romanticize the past but whether it's an art movement or a religion it seems like the creativity is in the burgeoning origins and then to a greater or lesser degree degrades with institutionalization.

    But, here I'm speaking in very broad generalities and I'm sure access to a time machine would accrue many a' disappointment.

    I'll have to look more into some of those teachers you cited, more homework

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah
    I would say that western, modern Zen is a hotbed of creativity. People are taking the traditions and bringing them forth in new and innovative ways. I mean, ya even have this Treeleaf online place with their Jukais and Angos.

    The only question is which are kickball and which are bowling-soccer.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I would say that western, modern Zen is a hotbed of creativity. People are taking the traditions and bringing them forth in new and innovative ways. I mean, ya even have this Treeleaf online place with their Jukais and Angos.

    The only question is which are kickball and which are bowling-soccer.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    An online Sangha is a creative modern concept and part of what makes it creative is how it steps outside the bounds of what has been the official status quo of things in a way that people wouldn't off the bat have thought of as a legitimate form of Zen. By combining a novel approach with an ancient tradition it succeeds at innovation.

    I can't think of a version of Buddhism I'd say is the equivalent of soccer with a bowling ball, can you?

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I can't think of a version of Buddhism I'd say is the equivalent of soccer with a bowling ball, can you?
    Oh my gosh, don't get me started. (I remind our future Jukai-ees that the "Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists" does not include sincere, constructive criticism meant to point out real problems). The first two are actually ethical and structural (cult) issues rather than doctrinal, but the first group is also prone to strange and harmful beliefs ...

    There is the Shambhala cult, led by the brilliant but mentally unstable and abusive Trungpa, his successor who actually murdered people by spreading AIDS during sex with students while knowingly infected, Trungpa's son who proved a chip off the old block, with all the abuses and weirdness there ...
    https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/enco...dhist-america/

    In Zen, the cultish atmosphere that surrounded Eido Shimano, facilitating his sexual and psychological abuse of students ...
    https://www.theatlantic.com/national...t-side/383831/

    Turning from ethical and cult issues to more doctrinal points, some of the California "psycho-babble pop-psychology" that has crept into some corners of Zen really bothers me. On the other side, although one could call it "traditional," some Zen and other Buddhist groups are far too superstitious for my tastes, making all kinds of doubtful and bizarre other-worldly claims.

    The Koan Introspection Zazen folks who think that their way is the only way, and advocate an intense "Sweat until ya pop" kind of practice are, I think, misguided for most folks ... and it is more likely to bring someone to a nervous breakdown than "Enlightenment." (This is not meant as criticism of all "Koan Introspection Zazen," only this one sub-group that is just over the top. That "Three Pillars of Zen" book is my usual target of criticism.)

    There are a few credentialed teachers out there who are selling, not Zen or Buddhism, but snake oil and Zennish double-talk.

    I also get on the folks who teach what they term "Shikantaza" as some kind of milk-toast, just breathe and let thoughts go, relaxation technique. That is all too common in the Soto world.

    WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...A-EXPLANATIONS

    Basically, Jundo Cohen is the only one who has got it right! Don't listen to those other folks.

    Gassho, Jundo Cohen

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-11-2020 at 01:08 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Oh my gosh, don't get me started. (I remind our future Jukai-ees that the "Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists" does not include sincere, constructive criticism meant to point out real problems). The first two are really ethical and structural (cult) issues, but the first group is also prone to strange and harmful beliefs ...

    There is the Shambhala cult, led by the brilliant but mentally unstable and abusive Trungpa, his successor who actually murdered people by spreading AIDS during sex with students while knowingly infected, Trungpa's son who proved a chip off the old block, with all the abuses and weirdness there ...
    https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/enco...dhist-america/

    In Zen, the cultish atmosphere that surrounded Eido Shimano, facilitating his sexual and psychological abuse of students ...
    https://www.theatlantic.com/national...t-side/383831/

    Turning from ethical and cult issues to more doctrinal points, some of the California "psycho-babble pop-psychology" that has crept into some corners of Zen really bothers me. On the other side, although one could call it "traditional," some Zen and other Buddhist groups are far too superstitious for my tastes, making all kinds of doubtful and other-worldly claims.

    The Koan Introspection Zazen folks who think that their way is the only way, and advocate an intense "Sweat until ya pop" kind of practice are, I think, misguided for most folks ... and it is more likely to bring someone to a nervous breakdown than "Enlightenment." (This is not meant as criticism of all "Koan Introspection Zazen," only this one sub-group that is just over the top. That "Three Pillars of Zen" book is my usual target of criticism.)

    There are a few teachers out their who are selling, not Zen or Buddhism, but snake oil and Zennish double-talk.

    I also get on the folks who teach what they term "Shikantaza" as some kind of milk-toast, just breathe and let thoughts go, relaxation technique. That is all too common in the Soto world.

    WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...A-EXPLANATIONS

    Basically, Jundo Cohen is the only one who has got it right! Don't listen to those other folks.

    Gassho, Jundo Cohen

    SatTodayLAH
    Ah, that explains the bowling ball part of the metaphor.
    Maybe the source of creativity here is that it's actually Jundo-ism, joking

  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    Ah, that explains the bowling ball part of the metaphor.
    Maybe the source of creativity here is that it's actually Jundo-ism, joking
    Any Buddhist group has always been through the lens of whoever the teacher was, just as any good restaurant kitchen is always through the eye and taste of whoever the chef is in the kitchen, or any orchestra is in the hands of whoever is the conductor on the podium. Many ways to cook good soup, make nice music ... also many ways to serve slop, be out of tune.

    Gassho, J

    STLah

    PS - I am going to post this again because this caused me to remember my dear Uncle Robert who died already a few months ago, age 90, of Covid-19. I miss him. He was an assistant conductor to Leonard Bernstein, then with the BBC for some time, and he taught me a lot about how the conductor forms the sound of the orchestra, and is not merely a guy keeping time waving a stick.

    Last edited by Jundo; 08-10-2020 at 05:01 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  26. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Any Buddhist group has always been through the lens of whoever the teacher was, just as any good restaurant kitchen is always through the eye and taste of whoever the chef is in the kitchen, or any orchestra is in the hands of whoever is the conductor on the podium. Many ways to cook good soup, make nice music ... also many ways to serve slop, be out of tune.

    Gassho, J

    STLah

    PS - I am going to post this again because this caused me to remember my dear Uncle Robert who died already a few months ago, age 90, of Covid-19. I miss him. He was an assistant conductor to Leonard Bernstein, then with the BBC for some time, and he taught me a lot about how the conductor forms the sound of the orchestra, and is not merely a guy keeping time waving a stick.

    ... Sorry about your uncle.

    As someone who enjoys cooking I wonder if their might actually be more potential ways to serve slop than to serve a good meal.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  27. #77
    One time I got stuck in samatha meditation in a barren place without thoughts, without any joy, and since I've just recovered from depression, I explained the "lack of progress" due to the low serotonin levels. Then one day, during ordinary morning, while having ordinary breakfast , I suddenly and deeply realised :what if this is IT, this ordinary life Is It! What if there's nothing else, nothing more to it and all this worry about low serotonin, access to Jhanas, all this tension was just a craving for something better than what was in front of me? Peace, happiness and gratitude filled my eyes with tears. After that bliss naturally happens during sittings, but it's not a focus anymore, there's so much more to ordinary life than bliss...

    Gassho
    Sat
    Last edited by Inshin; 08-10-2020 at 07:56 PM.

  28. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    One time I got stuck in samatha meditation in a barren place without thoughts, without any joy, and since I've just recovered from depression, I explained the "lack of progress" due to the low serotonin levels. Then one day, during ordinary morning, while having ordinary breakfast , I suddenly and deeply realised :what if this is IT, this ordinary life Is It! What if there's nothing else, nothing more to it and all this worry about low serotonin, access to Jhanas, all this tension was just a craving for something better than what was in front of me? Peace, happiness and gratitude filled my eyes with tears. After that bliss naturally happens during sittings, but it's not a focus anymore, there's so much more to ordinary life than bliss...

    Gassho
    Sat



    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  29. #79
    I've experienced the "bliss" of the Jhanas, as well as what they give away to, the happiness and then serenity and then that ... non-abiding? I'm not sure how to describe it, but it was a dropping of the subject/object dualism and it was very nice (then it was over and the appearance of a separate self arose again). Most of the time when I sit I don't experience jhanic bliss, but sometimes I'll catch a whiff of it before it vanishes and, still, I keep sitting and I've learned to really appreciate just sitting more than I enjoyed the bliss.

    Gassho
    Kyōsen
    Sat|LAH
    橋川
    kyō (bridge) | sen (river)

  30. #80
    First started meditating 50 years ago and then not so much until the last 20 years when I entered a Zen path. Have not experienced the things described in thread other than a mellow in the present feeling. Must be doing it wrong

    Doshin
    St and mellow

  31. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    One time I got stuck in samatha meditation in a barren place without thoughts, without any joy, and since I've just recovered from depression, I explained the "lack of progress" due to the low serotonin levels. Then one day, during ordinary morning, while having ordinary breakfast , I suddenly and deeply realised :what if this is IT, this ordinary life Is It! What if there's nothing else, nothing more to it and all this worry about low serotonin, access to Jhanas, all this tension was just a craving for something better than what was in front of me? Peace, happiness and gratitude filled my eyes with tears. After that bliss naturally happens during sittings, but it's not a focus anymore, there's so much more to ordinary life than bliss...

    Gassho
    Sat
    Ania, thank you for sharing that. You also posted a very lovely story elsewhere around here yesterday, and I hope it is okay if I retell it.

    I used to "bliss out on breath" using Samatha meditation, headphones on, zero distractions, perfect concentration. Then I've started learning Zazen in on of the centers. The energy in the room, the group of like minded people, the intention, all conditions were perfect. Once I was having a really good Zazen. I was not only able to arrive at the still quiet spot, but also to witness gratitude and joy arising. And then suddenly a group a youth must have stopped outside the building. They were talking very loudly about hassling and money, laughing and swearing. It was as if they were in the room with us. With that distraction the joy faded. Oh no! How I wanted to hang a little longer to that feeling! Frustration arose. And then I have remembered Thay's quote : "it's not the impermanence that makes us suffer. What makes us suffer is wanting things to be permanent when they are not." So I let the joy go. I sent a little metha to those loud guys. I focused on the sound of their voices, the cheerful laughter. Frustration dissappeard, there were only sounds. There was laugher, there was swearing, there was a siren in the distance, there was breathing, there was wind, there was in and out, and there's no in and out. There simply IS. And it felt like I could sit for hours with this ever-changing IS. Zen opens us up in mysterious ways...

    May You be well
    Gassho


    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Doshin View Post
    First started meditating 50 years ago and then not so much until the last 20 years when I entered a Zen path. Have not experienced the things described in thread other than a mellow in the present feeling. Must be doing it wrong

    Doshin
    St and mellow
    hahaha well then I don’t wanna be right lol

    gassho

    rish
    -stlah

  33. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    hahaha well then I don’t wanna be right lol

    gassho

    rish
    -stlah


    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  34. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    hahaha well then I don’t wanna be right lol

    gassho

    rish
    -stlah
    Risho, I am good with not being right, I am sure it is not the first time! Whatever it is, it has worked for me so far. .I’ll just keep sitting, maybe if not this time, then the next

    Doshin
    St

  35. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    One time I got stuck in samatha meditation in a barren place without thoughts, without any joy, and since I've just recovered from depression, I explained the "lack of progress" due to the low serotonin levels. Then one day, during ordinary morning, while having ordinary breakfast , I suddenly and deeply realised :what if this is IT, this ordinary life Is It! What if there's nothing else, nothing more to it and all this worry about low serotonin, access to Jhanas, all this tension was just a craving for something better than what was in front of me? Peace, happiness and gratitude filled my eyes with tears. After that bliss naturally happens during sittings, but it's not a focus anymore, there's so much more to ordinary life than bliss...

    Gassho
    Sat
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by you got stuck in samatha meditation since my understanding is that samatha merely means calm abiding and in early Buddhist traditions is used as a foundational place of peaceful practice. I'm glad you found some closure after your depression.

    Gassho,

    Andrew

    Satlah

  36. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyōsen View Post
    I've experienced the "bliss" of the Jhanas, as well as what they give away to, the happiness and then serenity and then that ... non-abiding? I'm not sure how to describe it, but it was a dropping of the subject/object dualism and it was very nice (then it was over and the appearance of a separate self arose again). Most of the time when I sit I don't experience jhanic bliss, but sometimes I'll catch a whiff of it before it vanishes and, still, I keep sitting and I've learned to really appreciate just sitting more than I enjoyed the bliss.

    Gassho
    Kyōsen
    Sat|LAH
    At first mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers, then mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers, then finally mountains are once again mountains and rivers are once again rivers. Fat Buddha returns to the market place with a jug of wine.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Doshin View Post
    First started meditating 50 years ago and then not so much until the last 20 years when I entered a Zen path. Have not experienced the things described in thread other than a mellow in the present feeling. Must be doing it wrong

    Doshin
    St and mellow
    I wouldn't say there's a wrong for something like this. People have different kinds of experiences and just try to make sense out of them.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  38. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    .... and in early Buddhist traditions is used as a foundational place of peaceful practice ...
    Yet there is some evidence that samatha may not have been interpreted as it later became. Some interpret samatha as leading to deep concentration states, and some emphasize its root meaning of compose, unify, calm, allow to settle the mind. It seems to be much as Ania describes at the end as well, although a different kind of composition, settling and calm than she first sought.

    This is at the heart of Shikantaza too, as well as insight which arises thereby in heart and mind, much as the insights described by Ania through these experiences and, no less, insight to leap beyond self and other, birth and death, as afforded by Zen practice too.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-11-2020 at 06:44 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  39. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yet there is some evidence that samatha may not have been interpreted as it later became. Some interpret samatha as leading to deep concentration states, and some emphasize its root meaning of compose, unify, calm, allow to settle the mind. It seems to be much as Ania describes at the end as well, although a different kind of composition, settling and calm than she first sought.

    This is at the heart of Shikantaza too, as well as insight which arises thereby in heart and mind, much as the insights described by Ania through these experiences and, no less, insight to leap beyond self and other, birth and death, as afforded by Zen practice too.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    The gist of the idea of samatha seems like it is a calmness of mind in order to work in conjunction with vipassana, the gist of which would just be insight into one's own mind. I know the systematizers get all elaborate with it later but that basic formulation doesn't seem particularly contrary to shikantaza. Doesn't shikantaza also have a tendency for concentration (focusing on just sitting is focusing on something), which calms the blender of the mind and allows you to have some insight into those waters?

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  40. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yet there is some evidence that samatha may not have been interpreted as it later became. Some interpret samatha as leading to deep concentration states, and some emphasize its root meaning of compose, unify, calm, allow to settle the mind. It seems to be much as Ania describes at the end as well, although a different kind of composition, settling and calm than she first sought.

    This is at the heart of Shikantaza too, as well as insight which arises thereby in heart and mind, much as the insights described by Ania through these experiences and, no less, insight to leap beyond self and other, birth and death, as afforded by Zen practice too.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Is the scruple primarily with the systematic stages that developed later?

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  41. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    I'm not quite sure what you mean by you got stuck in samatha meditation since my understanding is that samatha merely means calm abiding and in early Buddhist traditions is used as a foundational place of peaceful practice. I'm glad you found some closure after your depression.

    Gassho,

    Andrew

    Satlah
    Sorry Andrew for confusion, I'm still learning all the terminology. What I meant was Ānāpānasati, the method when one just focuses on the point between the mouth and the nose where breath enters and leaves. I guess Samatha has much broader application.

  42. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J. View Post
    The gist of the idea of samatha seems like it is a calmness of mind in order to work in conjunction with vipassana, the gist of which would just be insight into one's own mind. I know the systematizers get all elaborate with it later but that basic formulation doesn't seem particularly contrary to shikantaza. Doesn't shikantaza also have a tendency for concentration (focusing on just sitting is focusing on something), which calms the blender of the mind and allows you to have some insight into those waters?

    ...

    Is the scruple primarily with the systematic stages that developed later?
    I might describe Shikantaza as a light and easy settling and calming of thoughts as we disentangle from engaging with them, so one might call that some small "concentration." However it is not the deep levels of concentration that some forms of meditation seek (although, as we have been discussing, such happens in Shikantaza too sometimes, amid all that happens).

    As well, in Shikantaza, we do not emphasize stages ... and only just this, and just this, and just this ...


    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  43. #93
    Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat
    流文

    I know nothing.

  44. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc View Post
    Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat
    tell that to dogen let alone every other zen teacher on the planet :-p

    gassho

    risho
    -st

  45. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc View Post
    Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat

    Meitou
    Sat lah
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  46. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc View Post
    Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat
    Yes, maybe time to give it all a rest, what needs to be said being said.

    Gassho, J

    ST+lah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  47. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc View Post
    Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat
    I was thinking the same.


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Ania View Post
    Sorry Andrew for confusion, I'm still learning all the terminology. What I meant was Ānāpānasati, the method when one just focuses on the point between the mouth and the nose where breath enters and leaves. I guess Samatha has much broader application.
    No worries, I'm just trying to understand the distinctions and similarities being drawn.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  49. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I might describe Shikantaza as a light and easy settling and calming of thoughts as we disentangle from engaging with them, so one might call that some small "concentration." However it is not the deep levels of concentration that some forms of meditation seek (although, as we have been discussing, such happens in Shikantaza too sometimes, amid all that happens).

    As well, in Shikantaza, we do not emphasize stages ... and only just this, and just this, and just this ...


    Gassho, J

    STLah
    I wonder if the meditative stages in the Theravadan traditions belong to a later stratum. Just concentrating, being calm and allowing insight doesn't sound like that big of a deal. Shikantaza sounds like a broad form of concentration.

    Gassho,

    Andrew,

    Satlah

  50. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by kirkmc View Post
    Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...

    Gassho,

    Kirk

    sat
    Shobogenzo is a lot of words. Tao Te Ching is a lot of words. Come to think of it, Sutras are just a lot of words

    Gassho,

    Satlah,

    Andrew

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