I understand not chasing. I wonder about the concept of "cultivation" popular in meditative traditions and whether Zen ever intentionally "cultivates" anything since it does seem there is a difference between overt chasing and cultivation of qualities. The highest achievement being to accept and let go of whatever arises also sounds like a sort of cultivating... say... the cultivation of divine indifference.
Gassho,
Andrew,
Satlah
Hi Andrew
My first reply to you was a bit dismissive and I apologise for that however I didn't lie, Shikantaza is very physically painful for me.
I've been quite unwell this year and sat a LOT in hospital on the four occasions I ended up there. I didn't mention it in my initial response to you because you were asking about rapturous samadhi but yes I have had a Kensho experience but I didn't really know it. It was only after describing it to Jundo privately that he named it for me. My reaction, which I'm sure he expected was "oh well, I'll just keep sitting" or something similar. Yes, it has had a profound impact on me. Yes, I would say that it changed me permanently in a positive way, but in no way would I describe it as rapturous or blissful. I don't chase it, I still find Shikantaza extremely painful, and I'm sure I still annoy my partner just as much as before.
I didn't want to divulge this publicly but as the topic has come up in the Zazenkai as well I thought that you needed a reply that wasn't too "Zenny".
Be well my friend
Gassho
Onka
ST
穏 On (Calm)
火 Ka (Fires)
They/She.
From what I've read, Rinzia tends to cultivate these experiences, and expects them to occur as stages along the path. But this is just what I understand from reading, most recently, Peter Matthiesen's Nine-Headed Dragon River, when he got into Rinzai zen early on. (He later switched to Soto zen.)
I wouldn't use the term "indifference;" that sounds a bit judgmental. I'd say simply acceptance of what happens, without giving it any special value.
Gassho,
Kirk
sat
流文
I know nothing.
It is more of a dropping away of chasing rather than cultivating.I understand not chasing. I wonder about the concept of "cultivation" popular in meditative traditions and whether Zen ever intentionally "cultivates" anything since it does seem there is a difference between overt chasing and cultivation of qualities. The highest achievement being to accept and let go of whatever arises also sounds like a sort of cultivating... say... the cultivation of divine indifference.
Other aspects of Zen practice do talk about cultivating, such as the cultivation of compassion. Shikantaza, not so much.
I came to Treeleaf from Tibetan Buddhism and found I had to drop a lot of what I thought I knew about meditation in order to appreciate Zen practice.
Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-
Cultivating, "becoming better", "moving towards a goal"; I understand these concepts make sense in other traditions including Theravada. In Soto zen though, the non-evaluating, goallessness aspects of practice are vital. It is not like people are not open to discussing experiences but more like trying to point you to the right teaching from Zen perspective
There's plenty here if you are open to learning: https://antaiji.org/en/services/kodo-to-you/
Gassho,
Sam
ST
Last edited by shikantazen; 08-09-2020 at 10:37 PM.
From what I've read related to the history of Zen at one time these schisms according to school did not exist and Zen was even mixed with Pure Land practices but as schools emerged they became politicized emphasizing differences in competition for adherents. I think possibly some of what is specifically Soto might not have developed if it wasn't for antagonism with Rinzai.
"Divine indifference" sounds similar to "acceptance without special value" to me but nevertheless, no judgement, just bouncing off ideas and trying to learn something.
Gassho,
Andrew,
Satlah
Last edited by A.J.; 08-10-2020 at 01:57 AM.
I spent a few years going to a Soto temple regularly when I lived near one, checked out Shambhala for a year before they had their scandal, as well as dabbled in Tibetan Buddhism and Vipassana. My reading has been pretty broad but I don't necessarily think I know much about meditation. I just explore perspective, practice and see what comes up.
Gassho,
Andrew,
Satlah
And, of course, we goallessly go step by step, staying in healthful directions (sitting, avoiding excess desire, anger etc.), moving along the path. The raw beginner is as much "Buddha" as the fellow practicing 30 (or 30,000) years. We encounter all we encounter along the path, then bow and keep moving. There is no place to "go" because the whole path and every step is Buddha too.
And yet, and yet ... it's likely that the fellow who has been walking 30 years is better skilled at realizing the meaning of "all Buddha," more understanding of "no place to go," and more experienced in keeping in healthful directions step by step than the fellow who has only been practicing for a day.
There is "no place to go," but that does not mean we don't get some place.
Gassho, J
STLah
Last edited by Jundo; 08-10-2020 at 06:13 AM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
I am not sure that this is a the whole story historically. It is true that in China, Korea and Vietnam, Zen and Pure Land (as well as other practices from esoteric Buddhism and elsewhere) are more mixed together than in Japan. For various historical reasons, Rinzai, Soto and Pure land schools tended to go their own way more in Japan, although there was certainly a lot of mixing and matching in old Japan too (I was just reading yesterday about several lesser known Soto figures in the first generations after Dogen who mixed many traditions into their Soto Zen such as Shingon esoteric practices and Pure Land, and even some modern teachers like Uchiyama Roshi sprinkled in some chanting to Amida and such). Some of the differences among "schools" in Japan was exactly as you say, politics and the need to develop a "brand." That is true.
However, in fact, since the time of the Buddha, it has been more a matter that individual teachers and other practitioners went their own ways even within the same "schools." Theravada Buddhists, Pure Land folks, Rinzai folks and even modern Soto teachers all have their own styles, mixing this and that, and can be rather critical of some others that they disagree with even in the same "school" or lineage. Each is a "mini-schism" , and thus we have the 10,000 (more like 1,000,000) flavors of "Buddhism." It is just human nature. No two chefs cook the chicken soup exactly the same way, and different tongues have different tastes.
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
I didn't think about how there could be some significant differences even within the same lineage. That adds some perspective.
For some reason I can't quite put my finger on imaging people mixing and using what works as they interact with each other's practices seems more lively and dynamic whereas paring it all down to a particular school with only certain official teachings within that school feels ossified.
Gassho,
Andrew,
Satlah
One can mix baseball with soccer and get the wonderful "kickball" that my daughter loves in elementary school. As well, football is a lovely sport, tennis is a lovely sport, baseball is a lovely sport and perhaps suited to different players to whom each calls. But here, I teach baseball. We don't play baseball with a football and a tennis racket.
(By the way, some sports are no good for anybody: Soccer with bowling balls perhaps , especially in heading).
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Yeah, I came here because in the Buddhist world I've had the most direct contact with Soto, so I appreciate that. I'm also interested in the Buddhist tradition more broadly and sometimes I find some tensions in the points of view so I try to make some sense of it.
Speaking of religion in general, their origins and syncretisms are usually more creative but as time goes on the various needs of becoming more of an establishment have a tendency to squelch some of the spirit of what actually moved people in days of yore.
Gassho,
Andrew,
Satlah
Here too, I am going to say that people are people and have always been. We tend to romanticize the past and the "good old days." I think that Buddhist folks of the past were of all kinds, some very inspirational and many not so much, many in between. You might be pretty disappointed sometimes at how human and ordinary folks of the past where, even some of the folks around whom legends were built, if you ever climbed in a time machine and actually went back. On the other hand, these days I know A LOT of Zen and other Buddhist folks who "have the spirit." Some "mix and match" more than others, some stick more to one game.
I could name the late, great Zen teacher and social activist Bernie Glassman Roshi, from a mixed Rinzai-Soto line, or Shunryu Suzuki who was a pretty straight Soto guy, or Okumura Roshi and his teachers "Homeless Kodo" Sawaki and Uchiyama (apart from his little Pure Land and Christian seasoning) who are all pretty straight Soto, and frankly, 10,000 more.
Some mix and match, some play one game, all try to avoid heading bowling balls.
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
I don't intend to romanticize the past but whether it's an art movement or a religion it seems like the creativity is in the burgeoning origins and then to a greater or lesser degree degrades with institutionalization.
But, here I'm speaking in very broad generalities and I'm sure access to a time machine would accrue many a' disappointment.
I'll have to look more into some of those teachers you cited, more homework
Gassho,
Andrew,
Satlah
I would say that western, modern Zen is a hotbed of creativity. People are taking the traditions and bringing them forth in new and innovative ways. I mean, ya even have this Treeleaf online place with their Jukais and Angos.
The only question is which are kickball and which are bowling-soccer.
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
An online Sangha is a creative modern concept and part of what makes it creative is how it steps outside the bounds of what has been the official status quo of things in a way that people wouldn't off the bat have thought of as a legitimate form of Zen. By combining a novel approach with an ancient tradition it succeeds at innovation.
I can't think of a version of Buddhism I'd say is the equivalent of soccer with a bowling ball, can you?
Gassho,
Andrew,
Satlah
Oh my gosh, don't get me started. (I remind our future Jukai-ees that the "Precept on not criticizing other Buddhists" does not include sincere, constructive criticism meant to point out real problems). The first two are actually ethical and structural (cult) issues rather than doctrinal, but the first group is also prone to strange and harmful beliefs ...
There is the Shambhala cult, led by the brilliant but mentally unstable and abusive Trungpa, his successor who actually murdered people by spreading AIDS during sex with students while knowingly infected, Trungpa's son who proved a chip off the old block, with all the abuses and weirdness there ...
https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/enco...dhist-america/
In Zen, the cultish atmosphere that surrounded Eido Shimano, facilitating his sexual and psychological abuse of students ...
https://www.theatlantic.com/national...t-side/383831/
Turning from ethical and cult issues to more doctrinal points, some of the California "psycho-babble pop-psychology" that has crept into some corners of Zen really bothers me. On the other side, although one could call it "traditional," some Zen and other Buddhist groups are far too superstitious for my tastes, making all kinds of doubtful and bizarre other-worldly claims.
The Koan Introspection Zazen folks who think that their way is the only way, and advocate an intense "Sweat until ya pop" kind of practice are, I think, misguided for most folks ... and it is more likely to bring someone to a nervous breakdown than "Enlightenment." (This is not meant as criticism of all "Koan Introspection Zazen," only this one sub-group that is just over the top. That "Three Pillars of Zen" book is my usual target of criticism.)
There are a few credentialed teachers out there who are selling, not Zen or Buddhism, but snake oil and Zennish double-talk.
I also get on the folks who teach what they term "Shikantaza" as some kind of milk-toast, just breathe and let thoughts go, relaxation technique. That is all too common in the Soto world.
WHAT's OFTEN MISSING in SHIKANTAZA EXPLANATIONS ....
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...A-EXPLANATIONS
Basically, Jundo Cohen is the only one who has got it right! Don't listen to those other folks.
Gassho, Jundo Cohen
SatTodayLAH
Last edited by Jundo; 08-11-2020 at 01:08 AM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Any Buddhist group has always been through the lens of whoever the teacher was, just as any good restaurant kitchen is always through the eye and taste of whoever the chef is in the kitchen, or any orchestra is in the hands of whoever is the conductor on the podium. Many ways to cook good soup, make nice music ... also many ways to serve slop, be out of tune.
Gassho, J
STLah
PS - I am going to post this again because this caused me to remember my dear Uncle Robert who died already a few months ago, age 90, of Covid-19. I miss him. He was an assistant conductor to Leonard Bernstein, then with the BBC for some time, and he taught me a lot about how the conductor forms the sound of the orchestra, and is not merely a guy keeping time waving a stick.
Last edited by Jundo; 08-10-2020 at 05:01 AM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
One time I got stuck in samatha meditation in a barren place without thoughts, without any joy, and since I've just recovered from depression, I explained the "lack of progress" due to the low serotonin levels. Then one day, during ordinary morning, while having ordinary breakfast , I suddenly and deeply realised :what if this is IT, this ordinary life Is It! What if there's nothing else, nothing more to it and all this worry about low serotonin, access to Jhanas, all this tension was just a craving for something better than what was in front of me? Peace, happiness and gratitude filled my eyes with tears. After that bliss naturally happens during sittings, but it's not a focus anymore, there's so much more to ordinary life than bliss...
Gassho
Sat
Last edited by Inshin; 08-10-2020 at 07:56 PM.
I've experienced the "bliss" of the Jhanas, as well as what they give away to, the happiness and then serenity and then that ... non-abiding? I'm not sure how to describe it, but it was a dropping of the subject/object dualism and it was very nice (then it was over and the appearance of a separate self arose again). Most of the time when I sit I don't experience jhanic bliss, but sometimes I'll catch a whiff of it before it vanishes and, still, I keep sitting and I've learned to really appreciate just sitting more than I enjoyed the bliss.
Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH
橋川
kyō (bridge) | sen (river)
First started meditating 50 years ago and then not so much until the last 20 years when I entered a Zen path. Have not experienced the things described in thread other than a mellow in the present feeling. Must be doing it wrong
Doshin
St and mellow
Ania, thank you for sharing that. You also posted a very lovely story elsewhere around here yesterday, and I hope it is okay if I retell it.
I used to "bliss out on breath" using Samatha meditation, headphones on, zero distractions, perfect concentration. Then I've started learning Zazen in on of the centers. The energy in the room, the group of like minded people, the intention, all conditions were perfect. Once I was having a really good Zazen. I was not only able to arrive at the still quiet spot, but also to witness gratitude and joy arising. And then suddenly a group a youth must have stopped outside the building. They were talking very loudly about hassling and money, laughing and swearing. It was as if they were in the room with us. With that distraction the joy faded. Oh no! How I wanted to hang a little longer to that feeling! Frustration arose. And then I have remembered Thay's quote : "it's not the impermanence that makes us suffer. What makes us suffer is wanting things to be permanent when they are not." So I let the joy go. I sent a little metha to those loud guys. I focused on the sound of their voices, the cheerful laughter. Frustration dissappeard, there were only sounds. There was laugher, there was swearing, there was a siren in the distance, there was breathing, there was wind, there was in and out, and there's no in and out. There simply IS. And it felt like I could sit for hours with this ever-changing IS. Zen opens us up in mysterious ways...
May You be well
Gassho
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
I'm not quite sure what you mean by you got stuck in samatha meditation since my understanding is that samatha merely means calm abiding and in early Buddhist traditions is used as a foundational place of peaceful practice. I'm glad you found some closure after your depression.
Gassho,
Andrew
Satlah
At first mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers, then mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers, then finally mountains are once again mountains and rivers are once again rivers. Fat Buddha returns to the market place with a jug of wine.
Gassho,
Andrew,
Satlah
Yet there is some evidence that samatha may not have been interpreted as it later became. Some interpret samatha as leading to deep concentration states, and some emphasize its root meaning of compose, unify, calm, allow to settle the mind. It seems to be much as Ania describes at the end as well, although a different kind of composition, settling and calm than she first sought.
This is at the heart of Shikantaza too, as well as insight which arises thereby in heart and mind, much as the insights described by Ania through these experiences and, no less, insight to leap beyond self and other, birth and death, as afforded by Zen practice too.
Gassho, J
STLah
Last edited by Jundo; 08-11-2020 at 06:44 AM.
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
The gist of the idea of samatha seems like it is a calmness of mind in order to work in conjunction with vipassana, the gist of which would just be insight into one's own mind. I know the systematizers get all elaborate with it later but that basic formulation doesn't seem particularly contrary to shikantaza. Doesn't shikantaza also have a tendency for concentration (focusing on just sitting is focusing on something), which calms the blender of the mind and allows you to have some insight into those waters?
Gassho,
Andrew,
Satlah
I might describe Shikantaza as a light and easy settling and calming of thoughts as we disentangle from engaging with them, so one might call that some small "concentration." However it is not the deep levels of concentration that some forms of meditation seek (although, as we have been discussing, such happens in Shikantaza too sometimes, amid all that happens).
As well, in Shikantaza, we do not emphasize stages ... and only just this, and just this, and just this ...
Gassho, J
STLah
ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
Wow, lots of words here to talk about just sitting...
Gassho,
Kirk
sat
流文
I know nothing.