Daily dukkha as a motivator to see through illusion

[Tom A.]

In Vipassana, the daily round of disappointment and dissatisfaction (dukkha) due to greed, anger, and ignorance in life is a powerful motivator to see disillusionment (literally to see through the illusion that things should be or are permanent, that there is a self, and that life is all rainbows and unicorns) and practice from that wisdom and escape attachment and aversion. This is (at the risk of oversimplification) the path of Vipassana, progressing in stages until the final goal of Nibbana.

Is it fair to say we Soto Zen practitioners use the same dukkha for motivation and aim for the same disillusionment in practice to escape from attachment and aversion?

Yet at the same time leap clear of all goals?

My source for these ponderings and questions is the opening of Genjokoan:

As all things are buddha dharma, there are delusion, realization, practice, birth [life] and death, buddhas and sentient beings. As myriad things are without an abiding self, there is no delusion, no realization, no buddha, no sentient being, no birth and death. The buddha way, in essence, is leaping clear of abundance and lack; thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, sentient beings and buddhas. Yet in attachment blossoms fall, and in aversion weeds spread.

[Jundo]

Hi Tom,

Would you mind to sign your posts with a human name and "sat today" ... it helps keeps us human and practicing.

Yes, Dukkha ("suffering in Buddhist terms, but perhaps better translated as disappointment or tension between conditions as they are vs. how we desire them to be) is a central teaching of Zen Buddhism too. Our Shikantaza and general practice allow us to leap through this gap of desire vs. conditions.

As Master Dogen teaches in the passage from the Genjo, in my interpretation, first we experience a realm of birth and death, me and you, desires and conditions, ups and downs ... then one drops all that separate and divisions so as to taste this flowing wholeness at free of birth and death, me and you, anything to rate and measure, with all things just as they are ... then we encounter the world both views at once, each illuminating the other ...

Two eyes open together

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?17962-Two-eyes-open-together

... and so, though there is never death and loss, yet there is sometimes death and loss and we sometimes cry.

A bit more on "Dukkha" in Buddhist terms here:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7720-Buddha-Basics-%28Part-I%29-%C2%97-Scooby-Dooby-Dukkha

and

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7719-Buddha-Basics-%28Part-II%29-%C2%97-Noble-Truths

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodatLAH

(Pardon my stepping a bit past three sentences)

[Tom A.]

I think I'm having trouble asking my question,I'll try to ask it in another way. My question is: in the Soto Zen way and Mahayana in general, do we ever awknowledge that existence completely sucks through and through? Is there anything reminiscent of Theravada's dependence on becoming free from what sucks, as thinking on how much things suck is a powerful motivation to be disappointed and change, as well as to escape what sucks. In Theravada Buddhism, as I understand it, there one tends to seek out how much life sucks and the specific ways it sucks and awknowledge that it is one festering pile of suck, then disillusionment happens, then a powerful desire to get lost in jhanas, then give up anything hindering, and then give up the self...

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

[Geika]

Yes, we accept that life sometimes sucks, and that there is a way to get out of that suffering. Despite the teachings that there is nothing to change, if there are things you don't like about your life, it is best to work on changing some things if you can.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Kyoshin]

I think I'm having trouble asking my question,I'll try to ask it in another way. My question is: in the Soto Zen way and Mahayana in general, do we ever awknowledge that existence completely sucks through and through? Is there anything reminiscent of Theravada's dependence on becoming free from what sucks, as thinking on how much things suck is a powerful motivation to be disappointed and change, as well as to escape what sucks. In Theravada Buddhism, as I understand it, there one tends to seek out how much life sucks and the specific ways it sucks and awknowledge that it is one festering pile of suck, then disillusionment happens, then a powerful desire to get lost in jhanas, then give up anything hindering, and then give up the self...

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

In my experience, we neither dive into Dhukka, as you seem to be describing, nor try to run away. We acknowledge what sucks, and enjoy what doesn't, and do what we can to improve our lives without getting hung up on either.

Nanrin might have some insights into these questions; in addition to zen he works with a Theravada teacher in Thailand, and would likely be able to speak to differences in the two ways.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[Jundo]

I think I'm having trouble asking my question,I'll try to ask it in another way. My question is: in the Soto Zen way and Mahayana in general, do we ever awknowledge that existence completely sucks through and through? Is there anything reminiscent of Theravada's dependence on becoming free from what sucks, as thinking on how much things suck is a powerful motivation to be disappointed and change, as well as to escape what sucks. In Theravada Buddhism, as I understand it, there one tends to seek out how much life sucks and the specific ways it sucks and awknowledge that it is one festering pile of suck, then disillusionment happens, then a powerful desire to get lost in jhanas, then give up anything hindering, and then give up the self...

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

My impression these many years, studying Chinese and Japanese Buddhism and culture, is that generally the Chinese and Japanese are more accepting and loving of life. Thus, no, there is not generally a tendency in Zen Buddhism that this life is totally beyond redemption, and thus our goal is not to totally turn out backs on the world, hopefully never having to be born in it again. Rather, the tendency in Zen is to be totally free of samsara (this ordinary and often difficult world of division) while yet up to our necks in samsara, and I am personally in such camp too.

By the way, modern Western "insight" meditation and Vipassana also seems much more life embracing than traditional Theravada Buddhism from South Asia.

In my experience, we neither dive into Dhukka, as you seem to be describing, nor try to run away. We acknowledge what sucks, and enjoy what doesn't, and do what we can to improve our lives without getting hung up on either.

Dukkha (the sticky wheel of friction and resistance) does Suck-a, but Sukkha (the wheel that spins freely) no Suck-a.

Our "trick" in Zen, if ya ask me, is to see through Dukkka ... to the wholeness and flowing reality without division in which no friction and resistance is possible ... even while and as we are still caught in life's ordinary Dukkha with its natural frictions, divisions and resistance. Cake and eat it too. (Or, as our Mexican friend Yaxkin phrased it with me during our Zazenkai yesterday, "Two sides of the no sided Tortilla that rolls up as the Whole Enchilada" ).

We experience that wholeness so whole and undivided that even the terms and comparison of "Dukkha vs. Sukkha" (Suck-a vs. No Suck-a ) are dropped away, thus leaving a kind of Super Sukkha! (need to copyright that)

In the meantime, while here in Samsara, we do as Kyoshin says and try to be moderate, not getting too trapped in the dangers of Samsara. We experience Dukkha, avoid the excesses of Dukkha, try to change what we can while accepting the parts of life we cannot change, AND see right through "Dukkha/No Dukkha" and all divisions all at once!

Gassho, J

STLah

(Alas, more than three sentences again. It is a kind of Dukkha too).

[Jakuden]

I think I'm having trouble asking my question,I'll try to ask it in another way. My question is: in the Soto Zen way and Mahayana in general, do we ever awknowledge that existence completely sucks through and through? Is there anything reminiscent of Theravada's dependence on becoming free from what sucks, as thinking on how much things suck is a powerful motivation to be disappointed and change, as well as to escape what sucks. In Theravada Buddhism, as I understand it, there one tends to seek out how much life sucks and the specific ways it sucks and awknowledge that it is one festering pile of suck, then disillusionment happens, then a powerful desire to get lost in jhanas, then give up anything hindering, and then give up the self...

Gassho,
Tom
Sat/Lah

Acknowledging that "existence completely sucks through and through" is discriminatory thinking that we try to drop in Soto Zen. Using this as a motivation to escape what sucks is craving and attachment, which we also try to drop in Soto Zen. In other words, while many of us probably end up in this practice because we are seeking to escape Dukkha, there's a subtle difference from what you are talking about in the actual practice itself, which teaches us that the relief doesn't come until we learn to drop all the seeking!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Kyoshin]

My impression these many years, studying Chinese and Japanese Buddhism and culture, is that generally the Chinese and Japanese are more accepting and loving of life. Thus, no, there is not generally a tendency in Zen Buddhism that this life is totally beyond redemption, and our goal is to totally turn out backs on the world, hopefully never having to be born in it again. Rather, the tendency in Zen is to be totally free of samsara (this ordinary and often difficult world of division) while yet up to our necks in samsara, and I am personally in such camp too.

By the way, modern Western "insight" meditation and Vipassana also seems much more life embracing than traditional Theravada Buddhism from South Asia.



Dukkha (the sticky wheel of friction and resistance) does Suck-a, but Sukkha (the wheel that spins freely) no Suck-a. [emoji14]

Our "trick" in Zen, if ya ask me, is to see through Dukkka ... to the wholeness and flowing reality without division in which no friction and resistance is possible ... even while and as we are still caught in life's ordinary Dukkha with its natural frictions, divisions and resistance. Cake and eat it too. (Or, as our Mexican friend Yaxkin phrased it with me during our Zazenkai yesterday, "Two sides of the no sided Tortilla that rolls up as the Whole Enchilada" ).

We experience that wholeness so whole and undivided that even the terms and comparison of "Dukkha vs. Sukkha" (Suck-a vs. No Suck-a ) are dropped away, thus leaving a kind of Super Sukkha! (need to copyright that)

In the meantime, while here in Samsara, we do as Kyoshin says and try to be moderate, not getting too trapped in the dangers of Samsara. We experience Dukkha, avoid the excesses of Dukkha, try to change what we can while accepting the parts of life we cannot change, AND see right through "Dukkha/No Dukkha" all at once!

Gassho, J

STLah

Gassho, J

STLah

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji120]
Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

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[Kaiku]

[emoji120][emoji120][emoji120]

Ghasso
Bobby
SatTodayLAH


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[Tom A.]

Thank you for indulging my somewhat misplaced negativity! I've been having a hard time on my new medications. Now that I’m not in quite so much pain as yesterday I realize that my question didn’t make very much sense as problems such as suffering are always situational and have different remedies (changing ones behavior, changing ones thinking or accepting) The remedy of Dukkha, to have cake and eat it too, the whole enchilada is closer to a shift in perspective or something beyond perspective, “spiritual” and though the world isn't exactly beautiful right now, I'll continue to have trust that it is precious, beautiful in its many ugly facets, full and complete, beyond suffering and not suffering, beyond good and bad etc...

Gassho,
Tom

Sat/Lah

[Onka]

Gassho
Onka
st

[Tom A.]

This might be helpful for some people who are suffering intense feelings: I've been practicing just turning towards them and feeling them completely, not judging or indulging, just turning towards and awknowledging that the feeling is whole and complete in itself and there is nothing I need to do (a full acceptence?). It is easier to see through them like that, as if the feeling is both present and I have a need to act on it and its absent and there is complete peace at once. In the past, the more id try to push feelings away, the more id act on them and the more theyd come back. Im not an expert on/at this, its just some things Ive noticed that work for me.

Gassho,
Tom

Sat/Lah

[Kokuu]

This might be helpful for some people who are suffering intense feelings: I've been practicing just turning towards them and feeling them completely, not judging or indulging, just turning towards and awknowledging that the feeling is whole and complete in itself and there is nothing I need to do (a full acceptence?). It is easier to see through them like that, as if the feeling is both present and I have a need to act on it and its absent and there is complete peace at once.

This is what I do too, Tom.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Geika]

Something I do is try to make conscious decisions throughout the day to not bring my own suffering into the world. Even if it is inside me, I am still bringing it to this earth, so I try to choose not to, if that makes any sense. I don't reject their existence, I merely see it and plant a different seed, so to speak.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Jundo]

... The remedy of Dukkha, to have cake and eat it too, the whole enchilada is closer to a shift in perspective or something beyond perspective, “spiritual” and though the world isn't exactly beautiful right now, I'll continue to have trust that it is precious, beautiful in its many ugly facets, full and complete, beyond suffering and not suffering, beyond good and bad etc...

Alas, the Whole Enchilada sometimes contains both the sweet and the bitter, and some of our fellow human chefs sometimes ruin the cooking and recipe so that is turn to downright poison. There is much sadness in the world, some of it just nature and some of it of our own, needless human making.

Part of our work as Enchilada cooks is to make something as healthy and nutritious as we can.

Gassho, J

STLah