Teachers and Lineages

[Bearshirt Buddhist]

How important, in the long run, is it to have a personal relationship with a particular teacher, and to be attached to a particular lineage?

And what to do if you don't 'click' with any teachers you have access to?

Sat today

[Juki]

Not a teacher here, so everything I tell you is based on personal experience.

In my experience, we definitely need both a teacher and a Sangha. The teacher to show us the way, give us instructions in the basics and then occasionally gently remind us of things we might have misunderstood. The Sangha to keep us honest (so to speak), by which I mean only to support us in our practice. But it can also be said that after we receive fundamental information and instructions, and while we are part of the Sangha, much of the time, it seems like we are teaching Zen to ourselves through sheer repetition. But you don't want to keep repeating a mistake, which is why you need the teacher.

As to not clicking with a teacher, that happens. And you need to do some due diligence on your teacher, to make sure they are from an established lineage and credentialed. There are many teachers who have been involved in scandals, and you need to know that. But, if you have gone through many teachers, checked them all out and verified their credentials and you are still not "clicking," maybe you need to ask if it's you. Maybe you're not looking for a teacher, or you have a "romanticized" idea of what a teacher should be like, or maybe you're just not ready yet.

Just thinking out loud.

Gassho,
Juki

Sat today and lah

[Geika]

It is very important to my practice to have anchored here. I think it is good to stay in one place and go deep, to borrow a phrase from Michael Wenger of Dragon Sangha in San Francisco.

A good teacher will get to know you, and push you against your own grain sometimes. Dropping the self to become part of a group taught me a lot about my own ego, and what it thought it was getting from Zen practice.

I stopped jumping from one spiritual practice to the next, and abandoned all of the what if's around the corner, and instead just to gave this one thing my full attention.

Perhaps trying to "click" with a teacher is not the right way to look at it? Better to find someone who is kind, cares about their work and students, and does not seek out fame, adoration, or sexual favors from their students.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Juki]

It is very important to my practice to have anchored here. I think it is good to stay in one place and go deep, to borrow a phrase from Michael Wenger of Dragon Sangha in San Francisco.

A good teacher will get to know you, and push you against your own grain sometimes. Dropping the self to become part of a group taught me a lot about my own ego, and what it thought it was getting from Zen practice.

I stopped jumping from one spiritual practice to the next, and abandoned all of the what if's around the corner, and instead just to gave this one thing my full attention.

Perhaps trying to "click" with a teacher is not the right way to look at it? Better to find someone who is kind, cares about their work and students, and does not seek out fame, adoration, or sexual favors from their students.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

This is what I was trying to say. Wish we had a "like" button. Thank you, Geika

[Kyotaku]

I had several teachers. Also some famous ones. But it must feel good for you. Don't give yourself away. Stay alert. You don't have to accept certain behaviour from your teacher. Respect yourself. Some teachers start with : it is your ego etc. Keep honest to yourself and your teacher. I happened to learn a lot by having several teachers from different traditions. But if you have a good one around that's good. And find out what works for you. I was very much in love with koan work but shikantaza appears to be my way.

Edit : I also had much from sidetracks like Advaita, Taoïsm and Emptiness Teachings


Gassho
Hosei
Sat today

[Bearshirt Buddhist]

Thanks for the responses, though none of them really hit the nail on the head. I have been with the same zen center and the same teacher for some years and while I love my zen center I feel I have learned as much as I can from the main teacher there, at least for now. For the record he is a thoroughly decent and honest man, and has his bona fides as a teacher.

I am not sure that I can be entirely clear about my dissatisfaction because it is not entirely clear even to me, but here is a part of it: I am unclear about the goal. Zen discusses Nirvana little if at all in my experience. I know we are dealing with things that resist accurate formulation in language, and that are in constant danger of becoming reified, but still - can we not talk about this? Here is another part: on the few occasions I have tried to raise these and other questions - such as the meaning of anatta/anatma - I have been shut down. Teachers and other sangha members have made me feel that these questions are irrelevant, idle intellectualizing, and should not be asked. But they matter, at least to me. For me it is not idle. Given my psychological make-up, mental inclinations and life experience, intellectual understanding is a part of my path. Where do I go for this?

Don't get me wrong. I am profoundly grateful for my zen center. It has given me so much. But I also feel either I don't quite fit it, or it doesn't quite fit me.

[Jundo]

Hi Bear (Might I trouble you to sign a human first name to your posts, and put a human face photo? Thank you. It helps keep things a little warmer and more human around here.)

Zen discusses Nirvana little if at all in my experience.

Hmmm. I would say that is the central point of what most Zen folks talk about and, more vitally, practice about. If you mean "Nirvana" in the South Asian sense of something which is an escape from this world and the cycle of rebirth, than perhaps it is a little different in Zen groups. Zen folks are more about realization/satori/kensho and such, which is an "escape" while still in this life up to our necks. (The question of "rebirth" in traditional or modern Zen is itself a big question wherein Zen folks have various ways of expressing).

I have tried to raise these and other questions - such as the meaning of anatta/anatma - I have been shut down.

Every group and teacher is different, and there are also Soto and Rinzai approaches that are a bit different, but we address this all the time too. Here is one example:

Buddha-Basics (Part XIII) — No Self, No Problem!
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-No-Problem%21

Feel free to ask and discuss these or any matters here ... although, after the discussing, put down the pondering and get to sitting!

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Doshin]

Bearshirt

You said...

“Don't get me wrong. I am profoundly grateful for my zen center. It has given me so much. But I also feel either I don't quite fit it, or it doesn't quite fit me”

When I reached that point I moved on. Right or wrong it is what I did.

Doahin
St

[Jundo]

Bearshirt

You said...

“Don't get me wrong. I am profoundly grateful for my zen center. It has given me so much. But I also feel either I don't quite fit it, or it doesn't quite fit me”

When I reached that point I moved on. Right or wrong it is what I did.

Doahin
St

Ya know, it is a bit like a marriage, career or other long term relationship or commitment. There is no single right answer about when to "move on" to something new.

Sometimes people move on too early or easily, just because they are bored or impatient, barely waiting for the honeymoon to be over.

Sometimes it is very clear that someone should move, because the situation is really abusive or unhealthy.

Sometimes having a teacher or partner who is not "perfect" or who sometimes is bothersome is good, because we learn that true acceptance and equanimity is between our own ears. The teacher/partner/job is just the teacher/partner/job, but the "I don't like" is often more subjective than we know, and we have some control. It is good to be "bothered" by the teacher. It is when then honeymoon turns into the long haul "in sickness and health, for richer or poorer" of marriage. The most difficult teachers can sometimes be the best although, in other cases, bad teachers are just bad.

Sometimes the chemistry really is not right, and it is better to move one to some place/person with better chemistry. Sometimes the relationship really is not good, a lost caused and not fruitful, and that is clear after a sufficient number or months or even years have passed. (However, don't be one of those folks who just runs from teacher/wife to teacher/wife and never can be quite satisfied anywhere).

Hard to say which case is which, and you just has to decide by your own feeling.

Gassho, Jundo (who likes to drive folks crazy)

SatTodayLAH

[Kokuu]

Zen discusses Nirvana little if at all in my experience

Dōgen mentions it a fair bit in the Shōbōgenzō fascicle Genjokōan:

To carry the self forward and illuminate myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and illuminate the self is awakening.

To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly. When you first seek dharma, you imagine you are far away from its environs. At the moment when dharma is correctly transmitted, you are immediately your original self.

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

As Jundo says, it is rarely referred to as Nirvana/Nibbana as in Theravada Buddhism, and satori and kensho are discussed far more in Rinzai Zen.

I am not sure that I can be entirely clear about my dissatisfaction because it is not entirely clear even to me, but here is a part of it: I am unclear about the goal.

It is not a good sign if your questions are shut down. Even if it is an inopportune time, a teacher can say we can talk about this later. I don't mean to criticise your Zen centre though as don't know the full story but questions should be welcomed.

Dōgen talks about practice-enlightenment. Of Zazen he says:

Even though it may be merely for a moment, when someone, whilst sitting upright in meditation, puts the mark of the Buddha seal upon his three types of volitional actions—namely, those of body, speech and thought—the whole physical universe and everything in it becomes and is the Buddha seal; all of space, throughout, becomes and is enlightenment.

-- Bendōwa

So, essentially the goal is to drop all notions of good and bad, self and other, enlightenment and non-enlightenment and just sit directly with experience. If we drop our concepts of how life should be, there is just experience and no friction between your mind and reality to cause suffering. Things just are.

However, the paradox is that the more we strive for this, the further away it gets. Instead, we focus on practice both on and of the cushion and do not talk about enlightenment so much as people can have a tendency it make it into a thing, something else to obtain, another craving, another thing to desire.

Any help?


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Geika]

Thanks for the responses, though none of them really hit the nail on the head. I have been with the same zen center and the same teacher for some years and while I love my zen center I feel I have learned as much as I can from the main teacher there, at least for now...

I am not sure that I can be entirely clear about my dissatisfaction because it is not entirely clear even to me, but here is a part of it: I am unclear about the goal.

Is there, perhaps, a feeling that there is something to reach? A step further to go? When I am in a rut sometimes I look for a piece of inspiration to keep me going, and as I search I realize that I've read it all before. Sometimes, these things come on their own, but whenever I search I find nothing. In this practice of life-as-it-is-ness, it can sometimes feel like there should be something more-- but then it wouldn't be life-as-it-is.

Gassho
Sat today, lah

[Seikan]

In this practice of life-as-it-is-ness, it can sometimes feel like there should be something more-- but then it wouldn't be life-as-it-is.

Geika,

So well said! That one sentence was exactly what I needed to hear today myself. Thank you.

Gassho,
Rob


SatToday


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