Results 1 to 30 of 30

Thread: Unmodernising Buddhism

  1. #1

    Unmodernising Buddhism

    Very good and thought provoking article here by David Brazier, founder of the UK Pureland Buddhist group, Amida, who I have a connection with. I think something similar might have been touched on here before, as when I read this a phrase about not throwing Buddha out with the Bathwater came to mind, and I thought I could hear Jundo Roshi saying it.

    A long read, but interesting, as most of Brazier's writing tends to be.

    http://eleusis.ning.com/m/group/disc...ATopic%3A45972

    Gassho
    Meitou
    sattodaylah
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-13-2020 at 01:24 AM.
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Meitou View Post
    Very good and thought provoking article here by David Brazier, founder of the UK Pureland Buddhist group, Amida, who I have a connection with. I think something similar might have been touched on here before, as when I read this a phrase about not throwing Buddha out with the Bathwater came to mind, and I thought I could hear Jundo Roshi saying it.

    A long read, but interesting, as most of Brazier's writing tends to be.

    http://eleusis.ning.com/main/sharing...opic%253A45972

    Gassho
    Meitou
    sattodaylah
    Hi Meitou,

    I don't see a link to the actual essay. Might you check?

    Since you can't go outside today there in Italy, I suppose you have the time.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Nanrin View Post
    I think this is the essay:

    http://eleusis.ning.com/m/group/disc...ATopic%3A45972

    Gassho,

    Nanrin

    Sat today
    That's it thanks, I was on the wrong page, literally.
    Gassho
    Meitou
    Sattoday lah
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Meitou View Post
    Very good and thought provoking article here by David Brazier, founder of the UK Pureland Buddhist group, Amida, who I have a connection with. I think something similar might have been touched on here before, as when I read this a phrase about not throwing Buddha out with the Bathwater came to mind, and I thought I could hear Jundo Roshi saying it.

    A long read, but interesting, as most of Brazier's writing tends to be.

    http://eleusis.ning.com/m/group/disc...ATopic%3A45972

    Gassho
    Meitou
    sattodaylah
    Hi Meitou,

    I had time to read this (and I fixed your link ).

    Buddhists wanted to present their countries as “modern” and so injected a lot of Western rationalist prejudices into their culture and religion in order to make it look more compatible with science which was, in the West, becoming dominant over the established monotheistic religions. It became possible to say that Buddhism was the most scientific religion, or even that it was not a religion at all but rather a way of life, a philosophy and a science of the mind.... By deliberately playing to all the prejudices of Western culture, a new Buddhist product had been created that had direct appeal to Westerners alienated from their traditional faith traditions. In the process the modernisation went further and further. Buddhism was presented as a psychological technique leading to happiness, free from rituals, superstition, gods, priests and any kind of superstition. In other words, Buddhist modernism became, as many writers have now pointed out, a new fabrication that has precious little in common with Buddhism as practised for the twenty five centuries or so up to 1900, or, indeed, with Buddhism as still actually practised by ordinary folk in Thailand, Taiwan or Tokyo.
    Yes, this is true ... but so what? Mr. Brazier himself, as a Pure Land practitioner, is following a path that is likely a later creation and innovation to suit peoples' understanding of the world and psychological needs in a certain culture and age far removed from earlier flavors of Buddhism. All Mahayana and Zen Buddhists are as well (and so are Theravada Buddhists, in the sense that they have layered millennia of interpretations and cultural changes onto the original teachings). It may not be true that Buddhism in the past was necessarily more "scientific" than other religions, but for some of us, this is an effort to make Buddhism more relevant and consistent with modern understandings and culture, as has happened countless times in the past as Buddhism moved from India to other lands and times.

    Some people and groups have sought to extend Buddhism into or even identify it with current “progressive” Western concerns - ecology, psychology, gender equality, democracy, social justice, racial parity, and so on. Sometimes this is a bit of a stretch since traditional Buddhist texts do not mention most of these subjects.
    Why is it bad that it became so for some practitioners, while also bringing other positive innovations such as greater opportunities for practice for lay people including women? Some wish to focus more on our world without merely concern to escape it. (In fact, for some of us, nirvana and samsara need not be opposing things, and one can work to fix what can be fixed in this world, while also able to see beyond this world.) If there is room in Buddhism to make, for example, ecological and social justice concerns part of practice, why can we not do so? It is possible to find enough if ancient writings to assert that our Ancestors, alive in the closed and traditional societies of ancient Asia, might have done more on those fronts if they had the chance and freedom to do so?

    Some have taken techniques from Buddhism and applied them in the service of amelioration of contemporary ills. In the process, in order to make them acceptable to modern sensibilities, they have carried moderisation to an extreme, stripping out every trace of religiosity.
    One can be modern and skeptical of some traditional beliefs (e.g., that "Kannon" is an actual other worldly entity with 1000 hands looking down on us), and yet find a certain power and meaning in Kannon that retains her truth (e.g., that our acts of compassion are a real force in the world, so that we are the "hands of Kannon" when our hands work in compassionate ways). A symbol of a truth is just as true and powerful as that truth which it represents. We can chant and hold ceremonies because of the messages they contain, and the beauty and power of throwing oneself into their dance. Even a skeptic or atheist can still appreciate a beautiful wedding or child's graduation, and so for our meaningful ceremonies in Buddhism.

    To me, religion is not something to be rejected out of hand as old fashioned, nor is it a modern invention, as some have suggested. As I see it, people have a fundamental spiritual need and an unavoidable intuition of a beyond. ... My own approach therefore has been [] to not be afraid of ritual, symbolism, poetry, priestly roles and overt religious forms ... Modernist people are often completely cut off from their religious heart. They think in materialistic terms and lack a sense of spirit. Their world is disenchanted and they think that this is reality, whereas, in fact, it is a spiritual desert.
    If some of us want to modernize the teachings of Buddhism to make them more consistent with, for example, our current understanding of how the universe, time, atoms, our brains work than was known 1000 years ago, is that impossible, or necessarily always a bad thing? It is quite possible and, further, perhaps an abandonment of centuries of very questionable or superstitious beliefs in Buddhism ranging from the earth's being flat ...

    https://tricycle.org/magazine/first-...e-no-mountain/

    ... to belief in the efficacy (apart from psychological effects) or various chants, questionable medical and psychological treatments for the ill, amulets and magic spells to bring worldly results ... ultimately brings us to even more powerful and liberating truths.

    Now, there is nothing wrong, and much positive to be had, if someone gets comfort from lighting incense and praying to a Buddha, Bodhisattva or saint. I am not saying that their beliefs are fallacious if they find power and truth there: for their belief and their feeling about it is a fact. However, not all of us need to find our power and truth there. There are ways to experience a Buddhism more consistent with current understanding of how the world works, and modern democratic values, WHILE NONETHELESS preserving a sense of wonder, poetry, beauty and awe. For example, in our Zen school we tend to emphasize that all this world is sacred ... even so much that we take as ordinary. We encourage people to find their "Pure Land" on this earth and (although the task is endless) work to make it so. Such a path need not be cold, clinical and materialist. A scientist may have much to say on the mechanisms by which a flower germinates and grows, and the processing of photons and optical nerve signals by the eye and brain, or the heart rates and hormonal interactions when two persons communicate something meaningful ... yet never capture the richness and beauty of the simple experience of gazing upon a flower, offering one to a loved one, or the wordless experience of the Buddha’s holding up a flower before his disciple, Mahākāśyapa, who smiled.

    Many items ... a statue, beads, incense or robes ... can be kept for their artistic, psychological, mesmerizing, symbolic uses and meanings which move the heart and remind the mind of something important. They, even as art and image, are rich in meaning and the power they have upon the heart.

    All of this has been linked to an almost complete identification of Buddhism with the practice of meditation, especially three forms of contemplation: insight meditation, metta (loving kindness) practice, and choiceless awareness. Most Western people now assume that meditation and Buddhism are more or less synonyms.
    Well, all those images of the seated Buddha, cross legged, show that meditation has always been very important in our tradition. No, it was never the only thing ... and the Precepts, study, work practice and much more go hand in hand. Devotion to this Path has its place too. Unfortunately, until recently, it was very hard for lay people to have the opportunity to engage in any of that. Now they can.

    My own approach therefore has been ... to strip away the Western cultural accretions and try to find the true spirit
    Do not strip away the layers of a flower looking for the scent. To do so is an essentialist fallacy, or to believe that one has a monopoly on the only way to a "true spirit." David is just looking for the "true spirit" for David, and others can find the "true spirit" of Buddhism which resonates in other ways.

    Finding such a true refuge - nirvana - is the core of Buddhism. Modern Western Buddhism has lost this core. But if you take the heart out, the body no longer lives. At best you are left with a mechanism, a robot. Buddhist modernism is such a robot. It has no soul, no spirit, no religion.
    David, although he did write one of the books on the subject ...

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03..._bibl_vppi_i10

    ... really misunderstands many (not all) corners of Buddhist modernism. For many of us, the core and heart and body are still present and alive, even if we take soul (in Buddhism?) and spirit in a more poetic sense.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-13-2020 at 02:33 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  6. #6
    Just to make it clear, I have no opinions either way on the article and don't feel qualiified to have any, other than thinking it was interesting and thought provoking, just put it here as another pov and a subject of possible interest.
    Gassho
    Meitou
    sattodaylah
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Meitou View Post
    Just to make it clear, I have no opinions either way on the article and don't feel qualiified to have any, other than thinking it was interesting and thought provoking, just put it here as another pov and a subject of possible interest.
    Gassho
    Meitou
    sattodaylah
    Oh, I know.

    I wrote it to post on David's blog as a comment. He seems to say that it is okay if I do.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  8. #8
    Maybe I shouldn't have, but I laughed at this:

    I recently spoke at a conference. The speaker who followed after me was Chinese. He started his presentation by saying (and I paraphrase from memory) “Doctor Brazier and I are on opposite, perhaps complimentary, tracks. He is trying to remind Westerners that there was a perfectly good, functioning Buddhism before it got contaminated with modern Western culture and I am trying to persuade Easterners that Buddhism needs modernising and reforming to conform to the needs of the contemporary world.”
    I guess everyone really does suffer from dukkha--wanting things to be other than what they are--even Buddhist scholars.

    Gassho

    Nenka

    ST

  9. #9
    Hi Meitou

    Thank you so much for sharing this.

    I must say I have quite a lot of sympathy with what David Brazier has to say, but also agree with Jundo that he is presenting his own view of what Buddhism should look like, in just the same way as Stephen Batchelor does when he advocates for a more secular version of the dharma.

    Personally, I don't have a problem with either way but the issue I do take with Buddhist Modernism is that it often now seems to be, in the west, and on the internet, as the true form of Buddhism, stripped of all of that unnecessary woo-woo and Asian mumbo-jumbo. This position I dislike intensely as it ignores a lot of stuff that appears in the Pali Canon and Buddhism as it has been traditionally practiced in Asia. It is as if we are saying the the Buddhadharma had to wait for nearly 2500 years for western scientific materialism to appear so we could properly understand what the Buddha taught.

    As many wise people have pointed out, Buddhism has taken on different forms when its seed has fallen in different countries and in different hands and this I see as a strength. That Buddhism has drawn on psychology and neuroscience, gender equality and LGBTQI+ rights in the west has given rise to a vibrant new tradition of practice.

    However, putting that new form over and above how it has been practiced before is something I do not like.

    We are part of a new stream but doubtless the dharma will mutate again and take on new forms. I recently saw an invitation to submit to a haiku anthology about Buddhism which listed various traditions including Celtic Buddhism to which I raised an eyebrow!

    The quote that Nenka picked out is interesting and shows that there is a push-pull relationship between modernising Buddhism and maintaining extant traditions. I think this will continue to be the case for a considerable time and different sanghas in both west and east will fall in different places on that continuum.

    For me, Treeleaf gets the balance right but that will not be the case for everyone. It is good that we have David Braziers sticking up for the old, Stephen Batchelor looking at post-Buddhism and Jundo somewhere in between.

    There are plenty of Buddhisms to go around, and plenty of space to put our own point of view. Really, though, as long as how the teachings are presented maintains the essence of the Buddha's original teachings, I think that plurality is a good way to go. No one way is superior or the one true Buddhism for the age, but many have something to offer with their own particular flavour.

    As the Buddha himself is reputed to say:

    Just as the great ocean has one taste,
    the taste of salt,
    so also this teaching and discipline has one taste,
    the taste of liberation.


    -- Udana 5:5


    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    ------------------------------------
    Feel free to message me if you wish to talk about issues around practicing with physical limitations. This is something I have been sitting with for a fair while and am happy to help with suggestions or just offer a listening ear.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    It is quite possible and, further, perhaps an abandonment of centuries of very questionable or superstitious beliefs in Buddhism ranging from the earth's being flat ...

    https://tricycle.org/magazine/first-...e-no-mountain/
    Is it only me or anyone else got really interested in this Buddhist cosmology? I like to read about Buddhist philosophy and conceptual history, but never before got interested in these ancient descriptions of the world.

    Not that I will pledge my allegiance to the Flat Earth Society because of this, but people can also read Platoís descriptions of Atlantis and see in it a cautionary tale about the dangers of greed and arrogance; or they can spent all their money trying to find ruins of a continent under the ocean.

    Gassho,
    Mateus
    Sat/LAH

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mateus.baldin View Post
    Is it only me or anyone else got really interested in this Buddhist cosmology? I like to read about Buddhist philosophy and conceptual history, but never before got interested in these ancient descriptions of the world.

    Not that I will pledge my allegiance to the Flat Earth Society because of this, but people can also read Plato’s descriptions of Atlantis and see in it a cautionary tale about the dangers of greed and arrogance; or they can spent all their money trying to find ruins of a continent under the ocean.

    Gassho,
    Mateus
    Sat/LAH
    Me! I like mythology in general. I find Buddhist cosmology really interesting. Domyo Burk has some episodes on her podcast on cosmology.

    Additionally, I enjoyed the discussion above

    Gassho,
    Tyler

    SatToday

  12. #12
    Hi Tyler,
    Thank you for your suggestion. I will look at the podcast.
    Gassho,
    Mateus
    Sat/LAH

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Hi Meitou

    Thank you so much for sharing this.

    I must say I have quite a lot of sympathy with what David Brazier has to say, but also agree with Jundo that he is presenting his own view of what Buddhism should look like, in just the same way as Stephen Batchelor does when he advocates for a more secular version of the dharma.

    Personally, I don't have a problem with either way but the issue I do take with Buddhist Modernism is that it often now seems to be, in the west, and on the internet, as the true form of Buddhism, stripped of all of that unnecessary woo-woo and Asian mumbo-jumbo. This position I dislike intensely as it ignores a lot of stuff that appears in the Pali Canon and Buddhism as it has been traditionally practiced in Asia. It is as if we are saying the the Buddhadharma had to wait for nearly 2500 years for western scientific materialism to appear so we could properly understand what the Buddha taught.

    As many wise people have pointed out, Buddhism has taken on different forms when its seed has fallen in different countries and in different hands and this I see as a strength. That Buddhism has drawn on psychology and neuroscience, gender equality and LGBTQI+ rights in the west has given rise to a vibrant new tradition of practice.

    However, putting that new form over and above how it has been practiced before is something I do not like.

    We are part of a new stream but doubtless the dharma will mutate again and take on new forms. I recently saw an invitation to submit to a haiku anthology about Buddhism which listed various traditions including Celtic Buddhism to which I raised an eyebrow!

    The quote that Nenka picked out is interesting and shows that there is a push-pull relationship between modernising Buddhism and maintaining extant traditions. I think this will continue to be the case for a considerable time and different sanghas in both west and east will fall in different places on that continuum.

    For me, Treeleaf gets the balance right but that will not be the case for everyone. It is good that we have David Braziers sticking up for the old, Stephen Batchelor looking at post-Buddhism and Jundo somewhere in between.

    There are plenty of Buddhisms to go around, and plenty of space to put our own point of view. Really, though, as long as how the teachings are presented maintains the essence of the Buddha's original teachings, I think that plurality is a good way to go. No one way is superior or the one true Buddhism for the age, but many have something to offer with their own particular flavour.

    As the Buddha himself is reputed to say:

    Just as the great ocean has one taste,
    the taste of salt,
    so also this teaching and discipline has one taste,
    the taste of liberation.


    -- Udana 5:5


    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    There are indeed many tastes of Buddhism. After defending someone on Twitter I had a brief encounter with this person

    ALT BUDD.png

    Aware that there are probably more Buddhisms than I'll ever hear of, my interest was piqued enough to look up 'Evolian Buddhism'. Good grief, I rather wish I hadn't.
    Evolian Buddhism is an alt right style of Buddhism promoted by a very unpleasant Italian fascist called Julian Evola who would probably have considered Modern Buddhism to have started the moment Buddha died. He favoured a white aryan male only Buddhism as the only true form according to the Pali Canon.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola

    I found a modern take on his beliefs here
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AltBuddhism...s_altbuddhism/
    ,
    After reading this I realised I had already tangled with a couple of people who adher to the same kind of thing during a very lively exchange in the Xtinction Rebellion Buddhist Facebook group, when a couple of male commentators were promoting warrior action, not in the sense that we sometimes talk about warriors in the Buddhist tradition, but actual warriors, getting out there and taking violent action both online and in life. I made no comment on this at the time because I just couldn't grasp where on earth they were coming from. Now I think I do.

    Where does this kind of thing come from, who supports it and why? Who supports it seem to be ultra conservative, white, woman hating men who possibly fantasise about being
    Samurai warriors. Is that what attracts them to Buddhism? Have they seen too many Steven Seagal films and bought into his mythical past?
    Is it Modernism or Traditionalism, or a confused blurring of both?

    Gassho
    Meitou
    sattodaylah
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  14. #14
    Where does this kind of thing come from, who supports it and why? Who supports it seem to be ultra conservative, white, woman hating men who possibly fantasise about being
    Samurai warriors. Is that what attracts them to Buddhism? Have they seen too many Steven Seagal films and bought into his mythical past?
    Is it Modernism or Traditionalism, or a confused blurring of both?
    Hi Meitou

    I think it is a large case of Spiritual Bypassing in which parts of Buddhism, and fictional representations of it and Samurai culture, are used to feed into one's own beliefs and produce something that relates to Buddhadharma in name only.

    From the Wikipedia page:

    "Arthur Versluis [professor and Department Chair of Religious Studies at Michigan State University] stated that Evola's writing on Buddhism was a vehicle for his own theories, but was a far from accurate rendition of the subject, and he held that much the same could be said of Evola's writing on Hermeticism."

    As Jim Morrison once sang, people are strange!

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
    ------------------------------------
    Feel free to message me if you wish to talk about issues around practicing with physical limitations. This is something I have been sitting with for a fair while and am happy to help with suggestions or just offer a listening ear.

  15. #15
    Aye, there's nowt as queer as folks!
    Gassho
    Meitou
    sattodaylah
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Meitou View Post
    Aware that there are probably more Buddhisms than I'll ever hear of, my interest was piqued enough to look up 'Evolian Buddhism'. Good grief, I rather wish I hadn't.
    Evolian Buddhism is an alt right style of Buddhism promoted by a very unpleasant Italian fascist called Julian Evola ...


    Evola, or Ebola?
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17
    There was a link to this too. Terrible. I am almost thinking of joining as the Jewish heritage Zenguy anti-body to this Ebola ...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AltBuddhism/
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-16-2020 at 02:10 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    There was a link to this too. Terrible. I am almost thinking of joining as the Jewish heritage Zenguy anti-body to this Ebola ...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AltBuddhism/
    I watched a couple of minutes of the video with Brian Ruhe, which was more than enough, then checked out his Twitter. Vile Hitler lover. Ebola is right.

    Gassho
    Meitou
    Sattoday
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  19. #19
    After reading this thread,

    I really feel compelled to 'Just Sit'.

    Interesting ideas, however, just sitting will open my heart to Buddha's teaching. That for me, is different for David and everyone for that matter.

    I guess this is my response. I tend to resonate more Jundo and Kokuu on this......

    No thoughts to add

    Gassho,

    Ippo

    SatToday

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ippo View Post
    After reading this thread,

    I really feel compelled to 'Just Sit'.

    Interesting ideas, however, just sitting will open my heart to Buddha's teaching. That for me, is different for David and everyone for that matter.

    I guess this is my response. I tend to resonate more Jundo and Kokuu on this......

    No thoughts to add

    Gassho,

    Ippo

    SatToday
    David Brazier was kind enough to let me post my response as a comment on his blog thread.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  21. #21
    Speaking of reddit, the r/zen subreddit seems to be a really strange place too. They seem to be fundamentalist there. There is even a guy who wrote a book called "Not Zen: Dogen Buddhism". It seems anonymity brings out the worst in people..


    Gassho, Nikolas
    SatLah

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Speaking of reddit, the r/zen subreddit seems to be a really strange place too. They seem to be fundamentalist there. There is even a guy who wrote a book called "Not Zen: Dogen Buddhism". It seems anonymity brings out the worst in people..


    Gassho, Nikolas
    SatLah
    Oh, I just downloaded for $0.00. Sounds like what the book may be worth, but I should read it first before judging. I will report back.

    From the blurb ...

    Get to know real Caodong/Soto Masters like Dongshan and Wansong.Learn how churches calling themselves "Soto Zen" are really Dogen Buddhists, followers of a messianic guru called Dogen, with no historical or doctrinal connection to Caodong and Soto Zen. Learn how Dogen invented Zazen prayer-meditation and “practice-enlightenment" and lied about it.Learn how Dogen lied about what Rujing and Bodidharma teach.Learn how real Caodong and Soto Zen is about sudden and permanent enlightenment - no meditation required.
    Well, okay, we may have to close this place then!

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Oh, I just downloaded for $0.00. Sounds like what the book may be worth, but I should read it first before judging. I will report back.

    From the blurb ...



    Well, okay, we may have to close this place then!

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Learn how Dogen lied
    I'll be interested to learn how he knows that Dogen lied...
    Gassho
    Meitou
    sattoday
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Speaking of reddit, the r/zen subreddit seems to be a really strange place too. They seem to be fundamentalist there. There is even a guy who wrote a book called "Not Zen: Dogen Buddhism". It seems anonymity brings out the worst in people..


    Gassho, Nikolas
    SatLah
    l spent a few hours with this "book" today. Rambling, incomprehensible in much of it, page after page of axes to grind, no respect for history, misquoting of sources, poorly edited and poorly written, out of context nonsense, mad and angry, bigoted ... need l go on?

    Even as a Zen fellow who feels that no time can ever be wasted ... what a complete waste of my time!

    No Gassho for You!

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  25. #25
    Sorry for that Jundo! I should have warned you ...

    Can I ask your opinion on something? There are lots of people in r/zen who take the "book" and the author seriously, and I find myself going back there, again and again, trying to 'warn' them about him. On the one hand I feel like this is a responsibility I have, and on the other hand I want to run out of there and never return. I know there are more people like me who feel stucked in that position and some of them are people from Treeleaf. And then there is this part of me which feels guilty for not trusting people to find the truth like I did. Shall I trust my instincts and leave that place?

    Anyway, sorry for your time!
    Gassho (and another in hopes of redemption )
    Sat

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Sorry for that Jundo! I should have warned you ...

    Can I ask your opinion on something? There are lots of people in r/zen who take the "book" and the author seriously, and I find myself going back there, again and again, trying to 'warn' them about him. On the one hand I feel like this is a responsibility I have, and on the other hand I want to run out of there and never return. I know there are more people like me who feel stucked in that position and some of them are people from Treeleaf. And then there is this part of me which feels guilty for not trusting people to find the truth like I did. Shall I trust my instincts and leave that place?

    Anyway, sorry for your time!
    Gassho (and another in hopes of redemption )
    Sat
    Iím also on this subreddit and joined very early into my study of zen and for quite a while was concerned about the things he promoted. It took some time for me to be able to push it aside and be certain this was the path for me and itís relieving to see this addressed here.

    So I guess what Iím seeing is thanking for voicing an earlier concern that I didnít address!

    Gassho,
    Jonathan
    St


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsuru View Post
    Iím also on this subreddit and joined very early into my study of zen and for quite a while was concerned about the things he promoted. It took some time for me to be able to push it aside and be certain this was the path for me and itís relieving to see this addressed here.

    So I guess what Iím seeing is thanking for voicing an earlier concern that I didnít address!

    Gassho,
    Jonathan
    St


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    Sorry for that Jundo! I should have warned you ...

    Can I ask your opinion on something? There are lots of people in r/zen who take the "book" and the author seriously, and I find myself going back there, again and again, trying to 'warn' them about him. On the one hand I feel like this is a responsibility I have, and on the other hand I want to run out of there and never return. I know there are more people like me who feel stucked in that position and some of them are people from Treeleaf. And then there is this part of me which feels guilty for not trusting people to find the truth like I did. Shall I trust my instincts and leave that place?

    Anyway, sorry for your time!
    Gassho (and another in hopes of redemption )
    Sat
    There are toxic folks these days discussing politics, religion, all kinds of things. One can rarely convince them to change their minds. You may just become poisoned by it all. So, I advice to give it a small and reasonable, civil and soft spoken try then ... walk away. Maybe speak up again from time to time, but don't expect to convince anyone who does not want to be convinced.

    Please see our "Simple Living" lesson this week:

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ters-69-and-70

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  29. #29

  30. #30
    It's surprising to me how many people assume that Buddha was protected from cultural, social, and religious influence. Western society has infused Buddhism with psychology, rationalism, etc., as those are enmeshed in our culture. To suggest that the spiritualism, religion, etc., were infused into "original" Buddhism because they're irrefutably true, rather than because they were a part of that culture, is, I think, disingenuous. I, for one, don't believe that Buddha was infallible, nor was he immune to the influences of his surroundings.

    Shinshou (Daniel)
    Sat Today

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •