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Thread: Breath as practice versus plain sitting

  1. #1

    Breath as practice versus plain sitting

    Why are most zen teachers using counting breath and following breath as a practice instead of the plain sitting way explained in "Opening the hand of thought"?

    They mix it up with things like goalless practice, not to expect anything while on one hand you clearly have a goal to get better at staying with breath longer. This makes it confusing

    Also plain sitting seems to be (I know this is banned word, but still) faster method compared to spending several years of counting prior. It also seems true to what dogen was teaching too

    What are your thoughts on this.

    Gassho,
    Sam
    stlah

  2. #2
    I remember counting breaths when ifirststarted meditating. Was so attached and habituated tothinking and dreaming and the counting at least differentiated from that. I think when you drop all the methods and techniques it’s just sitting in a relaxed awareness with no goal. Sometimes when I get caught up in shit I ask what is this. That usually makes me smile

    Sat/lah




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    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

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  3. #3
    Hi Sam,

    Well, personally, I do believe that some teachers and students do use Zazen and the breath as a tool to attain deep concentration states. That becomes the central emphasis and goal in some kinds of Zazen, and I feel that it is not really Shikantaza (even if called so). On the other hand, a little breath following or counting, or having some other place where to rest the attention (Uchiyama Roshi encouraged placing the attention on the posture, and some teachers speak of focusing on the "Hara" region below the navel or the palm of the hand in the Zazen Mudra) is a good way to focus and settle the mind a bit. That is a good thing.

    I also encourage folks to follow the breath gently, especially when new to Zazen or on those days when the mind is really storming. Some settling of the mind, letting thoughts go and relaxing the mind, is a good thing in Shikantaza. Then, when someone has more experience in Zazen, and the mind is pretty settled, I encourage transitioning to "open spacious awareness" focused on everything and nothing in particular (I have sometimes compared this to the experience of driving, relaxed yet alert, looking out the wind screen and seeing the whole road and surroundings, but not being grabbed by any one thing in particular ... like the radio or smart phone ... nor lost in thought and daydreaming) ...

    Drivin' Dogen - Understanding "Open Spacious Awareness"
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ious-Awareness

    However, even then, notice that there is a focus of attention: The open road. Everything and nothing in particular. It is just not a "one pointed" focus like sticking with the breath or the Hara. I simply encourage this because I believe it is easier to take off the cushion into life, and I believe that doing so emphasizes the equanimity and acceptance of the whole world that is vital to Zazen. In Zazen (whether in "open spacious awareness" or following the breath, posture etc.) one also sits in radical goallessness, radical equanimity. with Zazen as a perfect doing ... the mere act of sitting without grabbing thoughts as itself a pristine act with nothing lacking. Concentration states and other experiences of various kinds may come and go, but they are not sought after or the goal (some teachers may do so, but I believe that misunderstands Shikantaza). The radical equanimity and dropping of need and judgement is the point. The hard borders of friction between oneself and the world will soften, perhaps sometimes drop away.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-18-2019 at 03:31 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    Why are most zen teachers using counting breath and following breath as a practice instead of the plain sitting way explained in "Opening the hand of thought"?

    They mix it up with things like goalless practice, not to expect anything while on one hand you clearly have a goal to get better at staying with breath longer. This makes it confusing

    Also plain sitting seems to be (I know this is banned word, but still) faster method compared to spending several years of counting prior. It also seems true to what dogen was teaching too

    What are your thoughts on this.

    Gassho,
    Sam
    stlah
    I will sometimes count. It depends on my state of mind. It is not something that needs to be done for a certain amount of time before attempting shikantaza, but just a tool for those times that the mind will not settle. After some rounds of counting, I soon find that it can be dropped off and remain open. Sometimes, I count the whole time because every time I stop I start going through an entire scenario in my head and pop back to reality suddenly, wondering how much time I just spent somewhere else. I am quite prone to vivid daydreams.

    There are other times I simply sit on the cushion and, a-ha! No need to count. Sometimes I just focus on the breath. Sometimes, I focus on my posture, or simply the feeling of my body. Over time, I stopped picking and choosing methods and instead see it as more like tools in the tool box.

    Gassho
    Sat today, lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  5. #5

    Breath as practice versus plain sitting

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    ...I encourage transitioning to "open spacious awareness" focused on everything and nothing in particular...
    Like a cat!

    Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    I ask what is this. That usually makes me smile


    Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

  7. #7
    I understand using them as a tool when needed but in most zen schools the instruction is to first develop this joriki or power of concentration to be with the breath before just sitting. When I shared my practice with few teachers earlier they even warned me saying if I don't follow breath first I'm wasting my time. We certainly don't do that here and I don't think any of the teachers in kodo sawaki's lineage either.

    This breath focus seems to be something inherited from theravada or vipassana style rather than something dogen taught? Should I just assume those teachers (who warned me) just didn't try this way and hence are not aware it works too?

    Gassho
    Sam
    st

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Geika View Post
    I will sometimes count. It depends on my state of mind. It is not something that needs to be done for a certain amount of time before attempting shikantaza, but just a tool for those times that the mind will not settle.
    A general curious question to people who have been sitting for a while. How often do you get caught up and how quickly do you come back on the average? What is the freq is considered to be unsettled mind (that needs counting or other technique)

    Gassho,
    Sam
    st

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    A general curious question to people who have been sitting for a while. How often do you get caught up and how quickly do you come back on the average? What is the freq is considered to be unsettled mind (that needs counting or other technique)

    Gassho,
    Sam
    st
    It doesn’t matter to me. It’s 100% my practice whether caught up or not.

    In stressful or emotional times practice can be difficult just like life

    Sat/lah


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    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    I understand using them as a tool when needed but in most zen schools the instruction is to first develop this joriki or power of concentration to be with the breath before just sitting. When I shared my practice with few teachers earlier they even warned me saying if I don't follow breath first I'm wasting my time. We certainly don't do that here and I don't think any of the teachers in kodo sawaki's lineage either.

    This breath focus seems to be something inherited from theravada or vipassana style rather than something dogen taught? Should I just assume those teachers (who warned me) just didn't try this way and hence are not aware it works too?

    Gassho
    Sam
    st
    Six of one, half a dozen of the other, not one not two ...

    Folks who say that would tend to emphasize Zazen as meditation to attain some kinds of samadhi as states of deep concentration. I do not think it limited to Theravada and Vipassana, but is a typical emphasis of many kinds of meditation, including by some Chan and Zen folks, that seeks for samadhi states.

    Those in the "Zen is good for nothing" flavor of Shikantaza and Master Dogen's Zen samadhi may emphasize the radical goallessness, wholeness, equanimity and fulfillment of the simple act of sitting itself, and all of life. Yes, runaway thoughts and judgments can hide that from our eyes, as can running after goals and seeking special states. We also follow the breath or the posture or sit in open awareness as all that drops away. Various states of concentration come and go, different days of sitting present changing scenery like changing weather, yet the clarity of the open sky is never obstructed.

    A general curious question to people who have been sitting for a while. How often do you get caught up and how quickly do you come back on the average? What is the freq is considered to be unsettled mind (that needs counting or other technique)
    We may come back and forth 10,000 times and 10,000 times again. Sometimes deep deep samadhi states, sometimes a stormy day, sometimes body and mind soften, sometimes dropped away or solid as a stubborn rock. All changing weather. People in meditation sometimes think that the "truth" is only the clear days without a cloud in the sky. Those times are lovely too. However, to know that the sky is always present, seen or unseen, is our Practice.

    Count when you wish to count, sit in open awareness and deep equanimity as it strikes one ... no rules.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-19-2019 at 11:51 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    A general curious question to people who have been sitting for a while. How often do you get caught up and how quickly do you come back on the average? What is the freq is considered to be unsettled mind (that needs counting or other technique)

    Gassho,
    Sam
    st
    A lot...

    Doshin
    St

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    A general curious question to people who have been sitting for a while. How often do you get caught up and how quickly do you come back on the average? What is the freq is considered to be unsettled mind (that needs counting or other technique)

    Gassho,
    Sam
    st
    Hi,

    I can't give you a direct answer to how often I get caught up. But I do a couple of things. When my mind is really active I will try to just feel what's going on in my shoulders or back. Maybe just tighten my focus a little bit. Its like having just a toe touching the bottom of a swimming pool. Just enough to stay ground.

    But if my mind is relaxed I try to just lightly be aware of my breathing and posture and just let things come and go. My attention will focus then I relax again. I think getting caught up in though involves a tightening of attention. But then I try to let it relax again which basically means I get out of my own way.

    I think another way to look at it would be letting your eyes go ever so slightly out of focus. You still see everything but your vision isn't locked onto an object.

    Does that make sense?

    Gassho
    Sattoday
    Hoseki

  13. #13
    Just sit. If counting the breath, just sit counting the breath.
    If not, just sit.

    Not a question of this or that.

    Sat

    Seiryu

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    Humbly,
    清竜 Seiryu

  14. #14
    I don't want to count breath, just don't like it. Very hard to catch where my breath is, whether it is in breath or out breath, starting or ending. Just sitting is best for my lazy self.

    I have sat a 2.5 day rohatsu and then a 1 day last weekend. I will sit another four day retreat next week. I am noticing with these retreats my focus is improving greatly (not during but post retreat). I am noticing I am being bought back from caught up thought several times (probably almost once every minute or even better (on good days)). You guys will have the frequency even higher I suppose. Will continue sitting.

    zen seems just hard work (sit more), masochism (for pain during retreat) and compassion (giving it back to the world)

    Gassho,
    Sam
    stlah
    Last edited by shikantazen; 12-19-2019 at 09:07 PM.

  15. #15
    Over the years several friends asked me questions like "How much progress have you made with meditation?" or statements like "I guess you must be very good at meditating", etc.

    Usually I don't bother to tell them that Zazen is not the same as meditiation, but what I try to explain them:
    - It is not about making progress.
    - I do not make any progress.
    - There is no better or worse - and I do not care. It is like it is.

    Zazen is about "not-judging", and as soon as you start to evaluate your practice in some way, you miss the whole point of it.
    Practice is just about practice. That's the whole point.

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu

    #sat2day
    no thing needs to be added

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by shikantazen View Post
    I don't want to count breath, just don't like it. Very hard to catch where my breath is, whether it is in breath or out breath, starting or ending. Just sitting is best for my lazy self.

    I have sat a 2.5 day rohatsu and then a 1 day last weekend. I will sit another four day retreat next week. I am noticing with these retreats my focus is improving greatly (not during but post retreat). I am noticing I am being bought back from caught up thought several times (probably almost once every minute or even better (on good days)). You guys will have the frequency even higher I suppose. Will continue sitting.

    zen seems just hard work (sit more), masochism (for pain during retreat) and compassion (giving it back to the world)
    Still seems like perhaps you are trying too hard, and measuring too much.

    I recommend that you just follow the breath, forgetting "in," "is" or "out," startings and endings or anything to catch. Buddha cannot be caught, and is out, is, is not and in, coming and goings and a leap through all such. Engage in nice natural breathing from the diaphram, but then ... forget about all measures.

    Sit a retreat of 1 day or 4 days, but also put down all measures of time, burn the calendar and smash the clock.

    "Bring back" your caught up thoughts exactly once every 2.6375 thoughts (just kidding! ).

    In fact, do not latch on, do not measure, do not be concerned as one releases 10,000 times again ... if finding oneself tangled or grabbing thoughts, merely let go and sit again. Be in the space between thoughts, then repeat. Nothing to measure. Thoughts and emotions are not our enemy, are only Buddha in disguise. Thoughts are just the space between thoughts as thoughts, the space between thoughts is the other clear face of thoughts. It is like saying that the cloudy or cloudless sky is all the sky. Nonetheless, we just sit and do not stir up the clouds.

    If you are working hard like a giving masochist, you are doing that to yourself. In sitting Zazen or engaging in other activities on retreat, drop from mind as best you can all ideas of "hard" or "easy," judgments of pain (I know, it is hard and impossible sometimes ... so when feeling like crap if there is no way to escape, just feel like crap and moan) or anyone to "give" or "be given."

    Good sitting!

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-19-2019 at 11:54 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17
    Thank you Daitetsu and Jundo. I will get there some day . i.e., Will progress to not thinking about progress

    Gassho,
    Sam
    stlah

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Geika View Post
    I will sometimes count. It depends on my state of mind. It is not something that needs to be done for a certain amount of time before attempting shikantaza, but just a tool for those times that the mind will not settle. After some rounds of counting, I soon find that it can be dropped off and remain open. Sometimes, I count the whole time because every time I stop I start going through an entire scenario in my head and pop back to reality suddenly, wondering how much time I just spent somewhere else. I am quite prone to vivid daydreams.

    There are other times I simply sit on the cushion and, a-ha! No need to count. Sometimes I just focus on the breath. Sometimes, I focus on my posture, or simply the feeling of my body. Over time, I stopped picking and choosing methods and instead see it as more like tools in the tool box.

    Gassho
    Sat today, lah
    How do you count your breath? Do you count the inhalations or the exhalations?

    Raymund
    Sat/Lah

  19. #19
    You coukd count exhalations to 10 and start over




    Sat/lah


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    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by theagnosticseeker20 View Post
    How do you count your breath? Do you count the inhalations or the exhalations?

    Raymund
    Sat/Lah
    I would recommend referring to Jundo's advice above. I don't recommend breath counting to replace shikantaza, and should not necessarily be practiced unless one is having immense trouble settling the mind and recommend by one's teacher. Even so, gently concentrating on the in breath and out breath, not forcing it and not counting, is a good way to settle a restless mind into the open awareness of shikantaza. But focusing on the breath, or any object, is not shikantaza.

    Gassho
    Sat, lah

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Geika View Post
    I would recommend referring to Jundo's advice above. I don't recommend breath counting to replace shikantaza, and should not necessarily be practiced unless one is having immense trouble settling the mind and recommend by one's teacher. Even so, gently concentrating on the in breath and out breath, not forcing it and not counting, is a good way to settle a restless mind into the open awareness of shikantaza. But focusing on the breath, or any object, is not shikantaza.

    Gassho
    Sat, lah

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Noted

    Raymund
    Sat/Lah

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    It doesn’t matter to me. It’s 100% my practice whether caught up or not.

    In stressful or emotional times practice can be difficult just like life

    Sat/lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




    Juki
    sat today and lah
    "First you have to give up." Tyler Durden

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich View Post
    You coukd count exhalations to 10 and start over

    Rich, sorry, we do not count here in our Sangha, except as Geika described just above.

    It is recommended to follow the breath at first, without counting, then when you can, I recommend that you transition to goalless, "open spacious awareness".

    Raymund, have you had a chance to go through our "We're All Beginnners" series? Some sections cover breathing ...

    - Zazen for Beginners (11) - The Breath
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...094#post189094

    If you have some question about that, after you watch the whole "Beginners" series, please post and we can discuss it.

    I recently posted elsewhere:

    As to Dogen, all he advises (in Fukanzazengi and elsewhere) is to "take a breath and exhale fully", and then turn to "thinking not thinking non thinking". In a section of Eihei Kokoru he is extremely and explicitely critical of breath counting or following (p 114 here https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...nayana&f=false ), calling it a "Lesser Vehicle" practice. He also is not too keen on the "Mahayana" way of breathing from the Hara either, seeming to say "long breaths are long, short are short" not coming or going to anywhere. In my opinion, modern teachers who instruct in counting breath might be helping newcomers get settled a bit (I tell newcomers to follow the breath for awhile or when the head is really running wild), but if they leave students doing so for years,or leave them with the impression that such calming is the point of Shikantaza, they are doing them a disservice. That IS NOT Shikantaza. I am not sure where the breath counting was reintroduced historically, but it is not really introducing students to the power of Shikantaza.
    Gassho, Jundo
    Last edited by Jundo; 02-19-2022 at 11:43 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  24. #24
    In 390 Dharma Hall Discourse Dōgen is critical of Abhidharma Kośa school of counting the breath and contemplating on body's impurities. However I don't really see there criticism of Mahāyāna's (the great vehicle) of tnaden breathing. Dogen explains : " Although exhale and inhale differ, both of them occur depending on the tanden. Impermanence is easy to clarify, and regulating the mind is easy to accomplish. " I cannot find any criticism in that. Dogen would have been trained in tanden breathing. What he does however in this Dharma Discourse, is leaping through the duality making it into a sort of koan.
    I guess...


    In the
    Mahayana there is also a method for regulating breath, which is knowing that one breath is long, another breath is short. The breath reaches the
    tanden and comes up from the tanden. Although exhale and inhale differ both of them occur depending on the tanden. Impermanence is easy
    to clarify, and regulating the mind is easy to accomplish.
    My late teacher Tiantong [Rujing] said, “Breath enters and reaches the
    tanden, and yet there is no place from which it comes. Therefore it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tanden, and yet there is
    nowhere it goes. Therefore it is neither short nor long.”
    My late teacher said it like that. Suppose someone were to ask Eihei,
    “Master, how do you regulate your breath?”
    I would simply say to him: Although it is not the great vehicle, it differs from the lesser vehicle. Although it is not the lesser vehicle, it differs
    from the great vehicle.
    Suppose that person inquired again, “Ultimately, what is it?”
    I would say to him: Exhale and inhale are neither long nor short.
    Someone asked Baizhang, “The Yogacara Sutra and the Jewel
    Necklace Sutra contain the Mahayana precepts. Why don’t you practice
    according to them?”
    Baizhang said, “What I take as essential is not limited to the greater or
    lesser vehicles, and does not differ from the greater or lesser vehicles. I
    condense and combine the extensive scope [of regulations] to establish
    standards for appropriate conduct.”

    Baizhang said it this way, but Eihei is certainly not like this. It is not
    the case that it is not limited to the great or small vehicles, or not different from the great or small vehicles. What is this small vehicle? The affairs
    of the donkey are not complete. What is this great vehicle? The affairs of
    the horse have already arrived. Not the extensive scope means the
    extremely great is the same as the small. Not condensed means the
    extremely small is the same as the great. I do not combine, but gallop
    over and drop away great and small. Already having accomplished this,
    how shall we go beyond?
    After a pause Dogen said: When healthy and energetic we do zazen
    without falling asleep. When hungry we eat rice, and know we are fully
    satisfied.
    Gassho
    Sat
    Last edited by Inshin; 02-20-2022 at 10:55 AM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Inshin View Post
    In 390 Dharma Hall Discourse Dōgen is critical of Abhidharma Kośa school of counting the breath and contemplating on body's impurities. However I don't really see there criticism of Mahāyāna's (the great vehicle) of tnaden breathing. Dogen explains : " Although exhale and inhale differ, both of them occur depending on the tanden. Impermanence is easy to clarify, and regulating the mind is easy to accomplish. " I cannot find any criticism in that. Dogen would have been trained in tanden breathing.
    No criticism, but breathing deeply from the tanden (hara) is not counting breaths.

    Also, whatever Dogen was trained in, I personally do not believe in the "ki" system or that the tanden is some magical center of energy, as it has not physiological basic. So, I ask folks just to breathe deeply from a diaphragm.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  26. #26
    Hi Sam,

    You have gotten really good advice here. I will add that sort of a breakthrough moment for me when it comes to sitting was when I stopped trying hard to do it right.

    I would sit but I would sort of be waiting for that thought to bubble up so that I could send it away like a good zen student. Like a cat ready to pounce on a mouse, I would be coiled and ready to go. But it was exhausting. Being on guard all the time. Working hard at sitting.

    Jundo's teaching really opened my eyes. I started to stop. I just sat in awareness. Not working to do something, not trying to do it right. Just sitting in awareness of the moment. And it all just settled. Just be like water, reflecting the awareness of the moment. If thoughts come up, just let them go. Don't go here and there. Don't track how it is going. Just sit in awareness. It is just so wonderful.

    Don't know if that helps at all.

    -sorry to run long

    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  27. #27
    I find that when I meditate on the breath, I reach a very relaxed yet alert state. But during my day-to-day activities, I find that I end up getting caught up in desire. I wish to feel as relaxed as I did with the morning meditation. And then I start to think, what if I started to cut out other regular activities to meditate MORE to achieve MORE peace and relaxation?

    This has changed since switching to Shikantaza. When I sit Shikantaza the trauma, pain, uneasiness is all accepted and embraced. And when things come up in my day, it is all accepted and embraced, as part of the path, as part of life, nowhere to go, nowhere to arrive.

    Sorry to run long,

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomás ESP View Post
    I find that when I meditate on the breath, I reach a very relaxed yet alert state. But during my day-to-day activities, I find that I end up getting caught up in desire. I wish to feel as relaxed as I did with the morning meditation. And then I start to think, what if I started to cut out other regular activities to meditate MORE to achieve MORE peace and relaxation?

    This has changed since switching to Shikantaza. When I sit Shikantaza the trauma, pain, uneasiness is all accepted and embraced. And when things come up in my day, it is all accepted and embraced, as part of the path, as part of life, nowhere to go, nowhere to arrive.

    Sorry to run long,

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH


    And that "accepted and embraced" just "as it is" makes it all quite different than it was.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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