How to deepen our practice?

[Hoseki]

Hi guys,

I would like to try and deepen my practice. Sometimes I feel like I'm just going through the motions. I currently sit 27 minutes a day (22 + 5 for ango) and I plan on bumping it up to 30 soon. I was also thinking about trying to keep up some of the commitments like the meal gatha. But I was wondering what else I could do to try and let zen get into my bones so to speak. I'm thinking I should try to sit every Zazenkai as I've been somewhat lax with that in the past.

What do you folks think?

Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki

[Kokuu]

Hi Hoseki

As you doubtless know by now, it is the regular activities that get into our bones and sitting every Zazenkai (which was a core Ango commitment for everyone) is definitely one of those things, as is daily sitting.

Aside from that, I think that the meal gatha is a great thing to add in (I think that was also recommended for Ango) and the metta verses are also a very lovely daily practice.

In addition, listening to one or two podcasts a week can keep your Zen motor running, as can some supplementary reading. There are extensive ideas for both on the Treeleaf suggested book and media list.

It is, however, not how much we do, but how wholeheartedly we do it. Better to do less formal practice but with more heart, than try to cram in lots and end up going through the motions. The key elements are daily sitting, sitting the weekly/monthly Zazenkai and paying attention to your life. We are fully and completely whole just as we are, but regular practice helps us to realize that.

In two weeks we will all be deepening our practice together with the two-day annual Treeleaf Rohatsu retreat. I hope you can join us for that!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Horin]

I think it's not about to deepen it, in my opinion. To run behind some depth is idealistic and not helpful I think. The approach to sit for longer duration of zazen sounds fine, but as jundo is emphazising "more is not in every case more" (I remember the wonderful sit a long with jundo, I think it has the title "what's next", also "watching the clock") . I think it's about the way we sit and practice in daily, with our whole heart, with he right intention and not to expect anything out of the deepening of a practice. Imo, we should try to keep the precepts, follow the eightfold path and embody the paramitas every moment as best as we can and return to it when we fail. So we can only embody the Dharma this present moment. This way our live will change and become deeper rather as a byproduct. But that's only my opinion. I'm curious what others will respond


Gassho

Ben

Stlah

Enviado desde mi PLK-L01 mediante Tapatalk

[Hoseki]

Hi Hoseki

As you doubtless know by now, it is the regular activities that get into our bones and sitting every Zazenkai (which was a core Ango commitment for everyone) is definitely one of those things, as is daily sitting.

Aside from that, I think that the meal gatha is a great thing to add in (I think that was also recommended for Ango) and the metta verses are also a very lovely daily practice.

In addition, listening to one or two podcasts a week can keep your Zen motor running, as can some supplementary reading. There are extensive ideas for both on the Treeleaf suggested book and media list.

It is, however, not how much we do, but how wholeheartedly we do it. Better to do less formal practice but with more heart, than try to cram in lots and end up going through the motions. The key elements are daily sitting, sitting the weekly/monthly Zazenkai and paying attention to your life. We are fully and completely whole just as we are, but regular practice helps us to realize that.

In two weeks we will all be deepening our practice together with the two-day annual Treeleaf Rohatsu retreat. I hope you can join us for that!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Hi Kokuu,

I've been doing OK with this set of Ango zazenkai's but its been tough. That's been the hardest part of the Ango commitments for me. I've been doing metta regularly and recently (earlier this week) decided to randomly recite the a verse (silently) periodically for strangers I see during the day. I work in a Med school which is located/attached to the local hospital so I often see patients through out the day.

My kids are almost 6 and almost 4 so when I'm home I'm more or less engaged with them so it makes it hard for me to get time away from them. My wife is pretty supportive but does kind of give me the side eye when I tell here the zazenkai is 4 hours

I was also going to ask for some advice with the Rohatsu retreat. My wife really doesn't want me to disappear to the basement for the weekend. So I'm hoping to take the Monday and Tuesday after the weekend as vacation days. That will give me most of the day to attend the recordings but I will need some advice on how to approach practicing when my family is home as I will undoubtedly be called up the stairs to help out.

When you said you paying attention to your life would you mind giving me an example?

Thank you for your help!


Gassho
Hoseki
sattoday

[Myoku]

Hi Hoseki,
I'm with Kokuu here, just go with the treeleaf flow and with Hishiryo, the deepening happens all by itself. However, I can much relate to your question, your wish to intensify as well as the obstacles you face, e.g. not joining every zazenkai (before ango i not did one for really long) or the 2 days vanishing from family life. About this two days, it should however be possible, think of if you need to travel for your job for a week, or being in hospital, it (almost) always also runs without us
Gassho
Myoku
sat

[Hoseki]

Hi Hoseki,
I'm with Kokuu here, just go with the treeleaf flow and with Hishiryo, the deepening happens all by itself. However, I can much relate to your question, your wish to intensify as well as the obstacles you face, e.g. not joining every zazenkai (before ango i not did one for really long) or the 2 days vanishing from family life. About this two days, it should however be possible, think of if you need to travel for your job for a week, or being in hospital, it (almost) always also runs without us
Gassho
Myoku
sat

Hi Myoku,

Its funny you mentioned going with the flow. One of the things I noticed during this ango was how my mind just kind of slows down during a sitting. I just have to keep letting go and eventually the thoughts become fewer and softer/quieter. When Jundo speaks of the softening of the boarders between us and other things I can't say I've experienced that and I want to. Maybe that desire is an obstacle but maybe its also what can motivate me to practice. I"m not sure. My wife's father was recently diagnosed with cancer so I can't push it with her. I havn't mentioned it earlier because we didn't know the diagnosis until yesterday and I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with my own grief. Until yesterday it didn't seem real you know. Anyway, I won't say any more about this at the moment. If I start to cry at work I will be asked questions I don't really feel like answering.

I appreciate your advice and to everyone at Treeleaf thank you for being here. It really does feel like a refuge at times.

Gassho
Hoseki
sattoday

[Kokuu]

My kids are almost 6 and almost 4 so when I'm home I'm more or less engaged with them so it makes it hard for me to get time away from them. My wife is pretty supportive but does kind of give me the side eye when I tell here the zazenkai is 4 hours

I get that, Hoseki, and think the four hour Zazenkai is a hard window to find for those with full-time work and family responsibilities.

It is fine to sit it (and the 90 minute one) in smaller bites.

Paying attention to being with your wife and children is, in my opinion, more important in those circumstances than necessarily ticking off each Zazenkai.

And, as both Hishiryo and Myoku point out, focusing on depth can be an unhelpful way of looking at things. You may not be able to engage in as much formal practice as you would like at the moment (and I have been there when I had smaller children) but you can be fully present for life just as it is now, in all of the joy, mess, struggles and frustration.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Hoseki]

I get that, Hoseki, and think the four hour Zazenkai is a hard window to find for those with full-time work and family responsibilities.

It is fine to sit it (and the 90 minute one) in smaller bites.

Paying attention to being with your wife and children is, in my opinion, more important in those circumstances than necessarily ticking off each Zazenkai.

And, as both Hishiryo and Myoku point out, focusing on depth can be an unhelpful way of looking at things. You may not be able to engage in as much formal practice as you would like at the moment (and I have been there when I had smaller children) but you can be fully present for life just as it is now, in all of the joy, mess, struggles and frustration.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday

[Meian]

for what it's worth, this is how i see deepening my practice ..... and i am working on this now.

yes, i have been trying to sit zazenkai in smaller chunks -- and the reclining zazenkai was a huge help for me, has improved my practice.

i have a daily practice already, so i adjust and add to that sometimes. and i read zen books, i read here, and i research on my own because i like to.

But ..... something i have really been working on, two things --

- applying what i learn and practice "on the cushion" to accepting my life and struggles as it is -- slow-going, but moment by moment

- applying what i learn and practice to building bridges and making peace with my relatives (estranged and otherwise). making peace -- they are angry and hurting over decades of ...???.... i am not. i tend to be the peacemaker and "rabbit chaser" in my family.

it's the second one that i am working harder on at this time.

what good is it to work at this, read, practice, reflect, learn -- if i don't apply it to my life and the relationships and circumstances in my life? to ease suffering and hardship in my life, by reaching out to the people i impact in my life (or can impact in my life). otherwise i'm just studying and practicing empty words, because i'm not applying them.

i need to put it into practice -- especially with the people in my life who are suffering the most. not preaching, but seeing where i can help, or just listen.

one relative who refuses to interact with anyone actually left a voice message today (she returned my phone call from a few days ago), so I am gathering my low energy and calming my mind.

this is just me and how i see things. i personally need my practice to help relieve the suffering of others, or to be of some help to others. i realized this should start in my own family. i want to help the wider world also, but my own relatives are toughest to reach (not by my choice).

of course, this may not be a correct definition of "deepening practice" -- but it's how i understand it in my life.

gassho
kim
rt lh

[Jundo]

I second so much of the advice here.

Life in a monastery is so mind numbingly dull, limited, sheltered and hyper-repetitive. Same old same old, day in day out for years. Talk about ruts! I am often somewhat skeptical about whether that is the best way to "deepen" one's practice, or better to be out in the chaos and tumult of the world and our day-to-day lives, simply applying this Practice and Teachings to life in "samsara" ... the doctor's visits, the shopping, the sick kids, the wars in the news. That is where the rubber of Buddha meets the road of the Way! I sometimes argue that folks fled to monasteries and isolation who could not handle the hard training in the outside, dusty world, and monasteries are for the folks who need protection. Buddha and young Dogen never said that practice happens only in monasteries, and both said that the outside world is the harder place where there are true challenges. Monasteries are traditionally the easier path, more sheltered, with worldly ties cut and family responsibilities left behind. With warm meals each day and a dry place to sleep, I would rather have been in a 15th century monastery than have been living as a 15th century peasant for sure! (That does not mean that monasteries are bad, and they are tough places to practice too ... and we all benefit from being in such a setting sometimes if we can manage it ... but simply that we tend to romanticize them a bit or consider them the only "real" place of practice. They never were.)

In other words ... the wife, the kids, the job, the sick in laws, your own problems ... are the place to "deepen" one's practice. They are your "monastery" and place of practice when the heart knows so.

Next, as was pointed out, there are always a few things to add like a meal chant, another book to read or podcast. But there is also going deep deep deep into what one is already doing, and that involves ... not quantity ... but relaxing one's heart and mind and simply being fully present with what one is doing. So, if even just taking a single bow, lighting one candle, reciting a vow for 10 seconds ... do so with nothing else in the universe for that 10 seconds. That 10 seconds is timeless and boundless, holding all the time and space of the universe, if you make your heart as timeless and boundless as all time and space. Strange as it sounds, one sometimes goes deeper by just being smaller, then dropping all thought of "big and small." Then get back on the clock, running to the doctor and feeding the kids. Repeat as needed.

Finally, as was mentioned, our's is a very strange-wise Path that is the medicine for the Dukkha (Buddhist Suffering) arising from our very human need for more more more, need need need, keep me entertained! Yes, these are two old talks that I hope folks really listen to ...

SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: WHAT's NEXT!?!
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-s-NEXT%21-%21

Watching The Clock Rackin Up Points
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ckin-Up-Points

Finally finally, yes, our practice is a hike through the mountains where every step by step is its own total arrival. The foot of the mountain or the heights, each twist and turn, smooth walking or falling in the mud, is ALL "Buddha Mountain." Each step or stumble is its own Total Arrival with no place else to be. We sometimes sit and sometimes walk, but we keep going. No place to seek, but we keep moving forward. Stumbling, we get up and keep going again and again. Mud puddles and poison ivy sacred and also part of "Buddha Mountain" ... yet we try to avoid them. Walk walk with each step the finish line. Do so for some months or years and then, one day, one sees that such walking has become second nature and one has truly gotten somewhere ...

Gassho, J
STLah

[Jakuden]

I second so much of the advice here.

Life in a monastery is so mind numbing dull, limited, sheltered and hyper-repetitive. Same old same old, day in day out for years. Talk about ruts! I am often somewhat skeptical about whether that is the best way to "deepen" one's practice, or better to be out in the chaos and tumult of the world and our day-to-day lives, simply applying this Practice and Teachings to life ... the doctor's visits, the shopping, the sick kids, the wars in the news. That is where the rubber of Buddha meets the road of the Way! I sometimes argue that folks fled to monasteries and isolation who could not handle the hard training in the outside, dusty world, and monasteries are for the folks who need protection. Buddha and young Dogen never said that practice happens only in monasteries, and both said that the outside world is the harder place. Monasteries are traditional the easier, more sheltered, worldly ties cut place for practice. (That does not mean that monasteries are bad, and they are tough places to practice too ... and we all benefit from being in such a setting sometimes if we can manage it ... but simply that we tend to romanticize them a bit or consider them the only "real" place of practice. They never were.)

In other words ... the wife, the kids, the job, the sick in laws, your own problems ... are the place to "deepen" one's practice. They are your "monastery" and place of practice when the heart knows so.

Next, as was pointed out, there are always a few things to add like a meal chant, another book to read or podcast. But there is also going deep deep deep into what one is already doing, and that involves ... not quantity ... but relaxing one's heart and mind and simply being fully present with what one is doing. So, if even just taking a single bow, lighting one candle, reciting a vow for 10 seconds ... do so with nothing else in the universe for that 10 seconds. That 10 seconds is timeless and boundless, holding all the time and space of the universe, if you make your heart as timeless and boundless as all time and space. Strange as it sounds, one sometimes goes deeper by just being smaller, then dropping all thought of "big and small."

Finally, as was mentioned, our's is a very strange-wise Path that is the medicine for the Dukkha (Buddhist Suffering) arising from our very human need for more more more, need need need, keep me entertained! Yes, these are two old talks that I hope folks really listen to ...

SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: WHAT's NEXT!?!
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-s-NEXT%21-%21

Watching The Clock Rackin Up Points
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ckin-Up-Points

Finally, yes, our practice is a hike through the mountains where every step by step is its own total arrival. The foot of the mountain or the heights, each twist and turn, smooth walking or falling in the mud, is ALL "Buddha Mountain." Each step or stumble is its own Total Arrival with no place else to be. We sometimes sit and sometimes walk, but we keep going. No place to seek, but we keep moving forward. Stumbling, we get up and keep going again and again. Mud puddles and poison ivy sacred and also part of "Buddha Mountain" ... yet we try to avoid them. Walk walk with each step the finish line. Do so for some months or years and then, one day, one sees that such walking has become second nature and one has truly gotten somewhere ...

Gassho, J
STLah

Thank you Jundo Roshi.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Tairin]

Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Onka]

Kyonin's words during the 4 hour opening ango zazenkai still remain at the forefront of my brainz. Essentially he said that during each ango period something new 'sticks' in terms of daily practice.
This really resonated with me.
I'm not deluded to think that every commitment I've tried to adhere to during this period will stick but I know some things will. Kyonin said that each ango period he participated in he added something new to his practice or something new stuck. That's how I see my practice deepening in terms of day to day stuff. In terms of philosophical understanding and historical knowledge, I'm sure they're deepening organically each day I read the forums and interact with the sangha and our readings.
Gassho
Anna
stlah

[Hoseki]

Thanks folks.

Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday


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[shikantazen]

I have done or am doing the below recently to "deepen" my practice

- Increased my sit time from 30 to 40 min
- Attending the local zen center sittings every morning at 5:30 am
- Committed to following the precepts; Being honest in every small thing in life
- Realized I have this habit of cutting unkind jokes (although harmless). I also get a lot of unkind prank thoughts to mind (that I never implemented). I learnt about compassion and why it matters (we are all one, there is no division). I'm trying to put this in practice in life by meeting each person with kindness and trying to check none of my jokes or thoughts are unkind
- I used to slack at work (IT, Coding) and realized that is breaking the precept of not stealing in a way (Taking employer's money without giving them what is promised). So trying to put in my hours with as much sincerity as possible
- Trying not to expect anything from the practice: Working on it

Gassho,
Sam
Sat2day

[Jundo]

I have done or am doing the below recently to "deepen" my practice

- Increased my sit time from 30 to 40 min
- Attending the local zen center sittings every morning at 5:30 am
- Committed to following the precepts; Being honest in every small thing in life
- Realized I have this habit of cutting unkind jokes (although harmless). I also get a lot of unkind prank thoughts to mind (that I never implemented). I learnt about compassion and why it matters (we are all one, there is no division). I'm trying to put this in practice in life by meeting each person with kindness and trying to check none of my jokes or thoughts are unkind
- I used to slack at work (IT, Coding) and realized that is breaking the precept of not stealing in a way (Taking employer's money without giving them what is promised). So trying to put in my hours with as much sincerity as possible
- Trying not to expect anything from the practice: Working on it

Gassho,
Sam
Sat2day

Lovely. Although there is not anything to expect or do ... that does not mean that we should not be diligent in doing it!

Increasing sitting time is often good, sitting every morning is always good (both on the days when it feels good and those days while it does not) ... all while droppiing all thought while sitting of time measures, clocks and calendars, good and bad.

This is our Koan of Shikantaza.

No Precept can ever be broken ... yet the Precepts can be broken, so we try our best not to break the Precepts.

This is our Koan of the Precepts.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - While I support honesty in every thing, I still tell my wife that I like her new dress even if not so crazy about it. Even the Buddha believed in "expedient means."

[Hoseki]

Hi folks,

I rewatched the video Jundo posted and I've given the topic some time. One of things I deal with is the tendency to want to run away from everything. Some might call this cowardice and they would be right Its like how our usual way of going about the world has us grasp at things that are pleasurable, push away things that are unpleasant and ignore things that are neutral. Of the three I find my behavior dominated by trying to push unpleasant things away. When I reflect on my past I see a series of events I didn't attend or usually joyous events as more like relief.

When I wrote the initial post I was processing some grief and a sense of impending loss. So I think my longing for something else was in a way an attempt to avoid those feelings. I still want to deepen my practice but I think it might be better to phrase it as just learning to be with what is.

Thank you for advice and thoughts.

Gassho
Hoseki
sattoday

[Myoku]

Sounds like you are on he right way, actually I feel you deepen your practice with this thread, by being so open (thats how I perceive it, as I'm rather not writing much about me) and by your awareness of your tendencies (which I'm also bad at ...), just keep going (though ups an downs),
Gassho
Myoku
sat

[Seiryu]

One of things I deal with is the tendency to want to run away from everything.

I understand that because that's how I moved through most of my life.

Recently during my sitting practice, from the moment the bell rang, it was like I entered a hell realm. I wanted to be anywhere but there.

I fought myself a bit to sit with it but it wasn't helping. Then, right before I was to give up, by just leaving the room, a question bubbled out from, seemingly the depths of my core,

"Where will you go?"

For me all that time I thought it was a external situation that was causes me issues, but it was just me not wanting to be with myself during it.
-----------------
When feelings of wanting to run come, maybe considering

Where can you run to where you will not be?

Might help....


Sat

Seiryu


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[Kyonin]

Kyonin's words during the 4 hour opening ango zazenkai still remain at the forefront of my brainz. Essentially he said that during each ango period something new 'sticks' in terms of daily practice.
This really resonated with me.
I'm not deluded to think that every commitment I've tried to adhere to during this period will stick but I know some things will. Kyonin said that each ango period he participated in he added something new to his practice or something new stuck. That's how I see my practice deepening in terms of day to day stuff. In terms of philosophical understanding and historical knowledge, I'm sure they're deepening organically each day I read the forums and interact with the sangha and our readings.
Gassho
Anna
stlah

Did I say that? Don't mind me. I'm innocent!

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Kyonin]

Hi Hoseki,

I guess you deepen your practice by dropping the idea of there's something to go deep to. You are already where you need to be. Your practice is already what it needs to be.

Just go about life sitting zazen and living by the Precepts. The rest will come in time.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Rich]

You can meditate anytime. You can just be. You don’t have to do anything. That’s about as deep as it gets

Sat/lah


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[Jundo]

Hi folks,

I rewatched the video Jundo posted and I've given the topic some time. One of things I deal with is the tendency to want to run away from everything. Some might call this cowardice and they would be right Its like how our usual way of going about the world has us grasp at things that are pleasurable, push away things that are unpleasant and ignore things that are neutral. Of the three I find my behavior dominated by trying to push unpleasant things away. When I reflect on my past I see a series of events I didn't attend or usually joyous events as more like relief.

When I wrote the initial post I was processing some grief and a sense of impending loss. So I think my longing for something else was in a way an attempt to avoid those feelings. I still want to deepen my practice but I think it might be better to phrase it as just learning to be with what is.

Thank you for advice and thoughts.

Gassho
Hoseki
sattoday

It is human to run from the unpleasant and toward the pleasant. We are not stones.

However, if we are prisoners of our likes and dislikes, or do so to excess in a way that causes harm ... well, that is a problem.

Our Buddhist way teaches us an abiding equanimity that we can know even as we keep our human likes and dislikes. I compare it to choosing chocolate ice cream because we don't like strawberry (or cancer!), yet also knowing an abiding equanimity if life hands us strawberry (or cancer!). As well, we are mildly attracted to our like so that, even if we work hard for chocolate, we do not feel decimated if we don't get it.

We also learn to manage our likes and dislikes better so that, if faced with a task we do not wish to do, we can overcome the mental resistance better. I still struggle with resistance when life hands me a task I do not want to do in that moment ... from picking weeds on a hot day to medical tests I would rather not face ... but I am better at turning the mind around to acceptance and non-resistance.

Yes, working with all this mental resistance and such is our practice, and we do get better at it.

....

Recently during my sitting practice, from the moment the bell rang, it was like I entered a hell realm. I wanted to be anywhere but there.

I fought myself a bit to sit with it but it wasn't helping. Then, right before I was to give up, by just leaving the room, a question bubbled out from, seemingly the depths of my core,

"Where will you go?" ...

When feelings of wanting to run come, maybe considering

Where can you run to where you will not be?

Nice.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS-Metta for your grief and loss, Hoseki.

[Meian]

Metta for you, Jundo. And I also prefer chocolate ice cream! (But my kids usually eat it first.)

Gassho2
Kim
St / Rt / lh

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[Hoseki]

Thank you everyone. Lots to think about and then let go

Gassho
Hoseki
Sattoday/lah