Translation and suffering

[Kyoshin]

I've been thinking a bit recently about translation, since I've noticed that translations seems to vary quite widely for Buddhist texts, more than I'm used to in other traditions. For example, if I read a few of the various reputable English translations of the Christian Bible, I get the sense that they're all pretty much saying the same thing, just with different style. However, I've seen English versions of the Heart Sutra that were so different that you might never have guessed that they were translations of the same source text. I imagine this is partly because Buddhists are not so very concerned about the "one and only corrrect interpretation" of any text, and maybe also because some of the Buddhist texts can get pretty darn "out there." How do you translate a koan that doesn't make sense even in the source language? That's why I think it's good to look at different translations; you get a few different ideas of what's going on.

But one area I've noticed that there's a lots of consistency is that the word dhukka seems to always be translated into English as "suffering." But I recently encountered a translation that rendered it as "stress," the first time I've personally seen another translation of that word. My first reaction was to dislike it, just because it's not what I'm used to, and also because "stress" seems to be less serious than suffering. But it's started to grow on me; for one thing, my previous work as an acupuncturist has me convinced that the biggest threat to our collective health in the developed world is, in fact, stress. It also does a better job of getting at the point of dhukka than does "suffering." Jundo can probably attest that every zen teacher has had to say something like the following at least a million times: "The suffering we're talking about isn't, say, the pain you feel when you stub your toe. It's the pain you feel when you get all worked up about stubbing your toe and let it ruin your day even after the physical pain has faded." I think using the word stress can help us make than fine distinction: stubbing your toe will always hurt, but it need not be stressful. You can just shout a couple curse words, then shrug and limp for a couple of minutes as you go about your day. I feel like the it's easier to understand the finer points of the concept when it's translated as stress.

What do you folks think?

Gassho,

Kyoshin

Sat/Lah

[Junkyo]

I really like the description given by Kusala Bhikshu in one of his Podcasts. He was giving a talk to a world religions class and he asked if any of the students could describe what suffering is, of course he got many good answers, but none of them quite hit the mark completely.

Eventually one student said "suffering is not pain, rather it is when you don't want the pain".

That really resonated with me personally. He eventually went on to say that perhaps "unsatisfactoryness" could be a better term.

I like that!

I have found that as I learn to sit with what ever arises I have much less "unsatisfactoryness". So instead on trying to find the right word to describe what I am feeling, I just try to sit with it and become good friends.

Gassho,

Junkyo

SAT

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

I've been thinking a bit recently about translation, since I've noticed that translations seems to vary quite widely for Buddhist texts, more than I'm used to in other traditions. For example, if I read a few of the various reputable English translations of the Christian Bible, I get the sense that they're all pretty much saying the same thing, just with different style. However, I've seen English versions of the Heart Sutra that were so different that you might never have guessed that they were translations of the same source text. I imagine this is partly because Buddhists are not so very concerned about the "one and only corrrect interpretation" of any text, and maybe also because some of the Buddhist texts can get pretty darn "out there." How do you translate a koan that doesn't make sense even in the source language? That's why I think it's good to look at different translations; you get a few different ideas of what's going on.

Oh, as a translator, I actually disagree with the above very much. Most of the Heart Sutra translations that I am familiar with, with a couple of exceptions, track the original Chinese-Japanese pretty closely, with small quibbles here and there. On the other hand, it has long been know that Christian Bible translation has been a historical minefield working from a variety of imperfectly understood ancient and often partially lost languages. I could link to countless sources on that.

But one area I've noticed that there's a lots of consistency is that the word dhukka seems to always be translated into English as "suffering." But I recently encountered a translation that rendered it as "stress," the first time I've personally seen another translation of that word. My first reaction was to dislike it, just because it's not what I'm used to, and also because "stress" seems to be less serious than suffering. But it's started to grow on me; for one thing, my previous work as an acupuncturist has me convinced that the biggest threat to our collective health in the developed world is, in fact, stress. It also does a better job of getting at the point of dhukka than does "suffering." Jundo can probably attest that every zen teacher has had to say something like the following at least a million times: "The suffering we're talking about isn't, say, the pain you feel when you stub your toe. It's the pain you feel when you get all worked up about stubbing your toe and let it ruin your day even after the physical pain has faded." I think using the word stress can help us make than fine distinction: stubbing your toe will always hurt, but it need not be stressful. You can just shout a couple curse words, then shrug and limp for a couple of minutes as you go about your day. I feel like the it's easier to understand the finer points of the concept when it's translated as stress.

I feel that "suffering" was always a very imperfect translation, but that the modern sense of "stress" is even worse. "Unsatisfactoryness" comes much closer to the mark.

After having looked at this question of the translations and uses of "Dhukka" over the years, I came up with the following ...

No one English word captures the full depth and range of the Pali term, Dukkha. It is sometimes rendered as “suffering,” as in “life is suffering.” But perhaps it’s better expressed as “dissatisfaction,” “anxiety,” “disappointment,” “unease at perfection,” or “frustration” — terms that wonderfully convey a subtlety of meaning.

In a nutshell, your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X. The mental state that may result to the “self” from this disparity is Dukkha.
.
Shakyamuni Buddha gave many examples: sickness (when we do not wish to be sick), old age (when we long for youth), death (if we cling to life), loss of a loved one (as we cannot let go), violated expectations, the failure of happy moments to last (though we wish them to last). Even joyous moments — such as happiness and good news, treasure or pleasant times — can be a source of suffering if we cling to them, if we are attached to those things.

In ancient stories, Dukkha is often compared to a chariot’s or potter’s wheel that will not turn smoothly as it revolves. The opposite, Sukkha, is a wheel that spins smoothly and noiselessly, without resistance as it goes.
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...y-Dooby-Dukkha

...

In life, there’s sickness, old age, death and loss… other very hard times… But that’s not why ‘Life is Suffering‘. Not at all, said the Buddha.
.
Instead …

... it’s sickness, but only when we refuse the condition …
…old age, if we long for youth …
… death, because we cling to life …
… loss, when we cannot let go …
... violated expectations, because we wished otherwise …

Our “dissatisfaction,” “disappointment,”‘ “unease” and “frustration” — Dukkha — arises as a state of mind, as our demands and wishes for how things “should be” or “if only would be for life to be content” differ from”the way things are.” Your “self” wishes this world to be X, yet this world is not X. That wide gap of “self” and “not self” is the source of Dukkha.
.
Our Practice closes the gap; not the least separation.

What’s more, even happiness can be a source of Dukkha if we cling to the happy state, demand that it stay, are attached to good news, material successes, pleasures and the like, refusing the way life may otherwise go. That is also the “self” placing judgments and demands on life.
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...7-Noble-Truths

The above is from our "Buddha-Basics" series ...
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...-Buddha-Basics

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Shinshi]

Jundo has already nailed it. But I'll just add my little view of this.

To me Dukkha is: What I have is not what I want.

But of course it is the wanting the world to be as you want it to be - that is the first step down the slippery slope.

The world is just perfect as it is, but we want it to be different.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Kyoshin]

Oh, as a translator, I actually disagree with the above very much. Most of the Heart Sutra translations that I am familiar with, with a couple of exceptions, track the original Chinese-Japanese pretty closely, with small quibbles here and there. On the other hand, it has long been know that Christian Bible translation has been a historical minefield working from a variety of imperfectly understood ancient and often partially lost languages. I could link to countless sources on that.



I feel that "suffering" was always a very imperfect translation, but that the modern sense of "stress" is even worse. "Unsatisfactoryness" comes much closer to the mark.

After having looked at this question of the translations and uses of "Dhukka" over the years, I came up with the following ...



The above is from our "Buddha-Basics" series ...
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...-Buddha-Basics

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Oh Biblical translation is a minefield for sure. I'm also not questioning the skill or validity of any translator. I just meant that, with my untrained eye, I read the same passage of two different Bible translations and say "Yeah, that's more or less the same" whereas I read two different Heart Sutra translations and go "wow, those are pretty different!" Maybe its just because as a Buddhist I'm more interested in the fine nuances of what the Buddhist texts have to say!

I'd forgotten about that breakdown of dhukka you gave in Buddha basics, thanks for the reminder. Though I still like stress better than suffering. In fact re-reading that breakdown of dhukka makes me like "stress" even more. I suppose this means you'll have to challenge me to a duel....

Gassho,
Kyoshin
Sat/Lah

[Jundo]

If you show me the ones the Heart Sutra Translations that look different, I would be interested.

TNH and Upaya Zen Center worked up some rather original and creative versions, as I recall. I don't recall huge differences in the others, although maybe find points of distinction.

The Tibetans tend to use a longer version then Zen folks, because it includes an opening and closing scene. The rest is about the same although, as a translation, it is phrased here in English to be a bit more prosaic. Also, once again it could be phrased in somewhat different ways in moving from Tibetan to English.

Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was dwelling in Rajagriha at Vulture Peak mountain, together with a great gathering of the sangha of monks and a great gathering of the sangha of bodhisattvas. At that time the Blessed One entered the samadhi that expresses the dharma called "profound illumination," and at the same time noble Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, while practicing the profound prajnaparamita, saw in this way: he saw the five skandhas to be empty of nature. Then, through the power of the Buddha, venerable Shariputra said to noble Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, "How should a son or daughter of noble family train, who wishes to practice the profound prajnaparamita?" Addressed in this way, noble Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, said to venerable Shariputra, "O Shariputra, a son or daughter of noble family who wishes to practice the profound prajnaparamita should see in this way: seeing the five skandhas to be empty of nature. Form is emptiness; emptiness also is form. Emptiness is no other than form; form is no other than emptiness ...

They have a little more at the end too, after the GATE GATE ...

GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA
Thus, Shariputra, the bodhisattva mahasattva should train in the profound prajnaparamita. Then the Blessed One arose from that samadhi and praised noble Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, saying, "Good, good, O son of noble family; thus it is, O son of noble family, thus it is. One should practice the profound prajnaparamita just as you have taught and all the tathagatas will rejoice." When the Blessed One had said this, venerable Shariputra and noble Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva mahasattva, that whole assembly and the world with its gods, humans, asuras, and gandharvas rejoiced and praised the words of the Blessed One.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyoshin]

If you show me the ones the Heart Sutra Translations that look different, I would be interested.

TNH and Upaya Zen Center worked up some rather original and creative versions, as I recall. I don't recall huge differences in the others, although maybe find points of distinction.

The Tibetans tend to use a longer version then Zen folks, because it includes an opening and closing scene. The rest is about the same although, as a translation, it is phrased here in English to be a bit more prosaic. Also, once again it could be phrased in somewhat different ways in moving from Tibetan to English.



They have a little more at the end too, after the GATE GATE ...



Gassho, J

STLah

I think alot of it is subjective, because the dictionary meanings of the words chosen are indeed very much the same. But for me at least, the "between the lines" character, the feel of the language varies quite a bit. Despite the similarities, I've just never been able to shake the feeling that each translation was trying to tell me something different. I can't quite put my finger on it.

When I wrote the original post, I had in mind particularly 3 different versions of the Heart Sutra: the one we use for Treeleaf zazenkai, the one from the Zen Mountain Monastery Liturgy Manual ( https://zmm.org/teachings-and-traini...y/heart-sutra/ ), and Thich Nhat Hanh's version ( https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-n...a-translation/ ). I would love to hear your thoughts as a professional translator; you obviously know more than I about both zen and translating documents.

Gassho,
Kyoshin
Sat/lah

[Jundo]

I think alot of it is subjective, because the dictionary meanings of the words chosen are indeed very much the same. But for me at least, the "between the lines" character, the feel of the language varies quite a bit. Despite the similarities, I've just never been able to shake the feeling that each translation was trying to tell me something different. I can't quite put my finger on it.

When I wrote the original post, I had in mind particularly 3 different versions of the Heart Sutra: the one we use for Treeleaf zazenkai, the one from the Zen Mountain Monastery Liturgy Manual ( https://zmm.org/teachings-and-traini...y/heart-sutra/ ), and Thich Nhat Hanh's version ( https://plumvillage.org/news/thich-n...a-translation/ ). I would love to hear your thoughts as a professional translator; you obviously know more than I about both zen and translating documents.

Gassho,
Kyoshin
Sat/lah

i recite the Heart Sutra in Japanese most days, so have a good recollection of the actual Kanji there. The ZMM translation does have some phrases that are a bit unusual to me. For example ...

"thus completely relieving misfortune and pain"

The word 苦厄 could be "misfortune" and, as we discussed, "pain", but the point is really the suffering (Dukkha) about the pain and misfortune, not the pain and misfortune itself. Realizing emptiness cures "Dukkha" thus frees from the suffering about pain and misfortune.

"Sensation, conception, discrimination, awareness"

One could debate the best words to render these mental Skandhas.

http://thezenuniverse.org/the-five-skandhas/

Otherwise, i don't see much that is more than a quibble.

Thich Nhat Hanh's version is creative, as i mentioned. The "Ill-being" for "misfortune and pain" or "suffering" is interesting.

His "this Body" may actually be right historically because it is the "body" Skandha which is also empty like the other Skandhas, but it is usually taken as the more general "form" which is what the mental Skandhas contact.

When he says:

The Eighteen Realms of Phenomena
which are the six Sense Organs,
the six Sense Objects,
and the six Consciousnesses
are also not separate self entities.

Well, this is not literally in the original, but is implied and really does not differ from other translations except to say it more explicitly. The Skandha operate, for example, from the eye organ, what the eye sees, and the visual consciousness that results, and the same for the other senses and mind. His "not separate self entities" is just a fancy way to say "empty," but a little materialistic in the way TNH is sometimes.

"The Twelve Links of Interdependent Arising and their Extinction" which is also in all versions although not so explicit. This is also empty.

The "no more obstacles in their mind" is not different from "hindrances" as in our version, but i don't find that it flows musically as well.

None of these versions are really that different, apart from that.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyoshin]

Thanks, Jundo!
Gassho
Kyōshin
Sat

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Red Pines' book is probably the most readable explanation as to meaning and translation questions ...

https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Sutra-R.../dp/1593760825

Tanahashi Sensei has a book on the Heart Sutra meaning, but i don't think it as comprehensive or interesting if you don't read Chinese or Japanese.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1611803128...8-7eff3394b224

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyoshin]

Red Pines' book is probably the most readable explanation as to meaning and translation questions ...

https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Sutra-R.../dp/1593760825

Tanahashi Sensei has a book on the Heart Sutra meaning, but i don't think it as comprehensive or interesting if you don't read Chinese or Japanese.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1611803128...8-7eff3394b224

Gassho, J

STLah

Good to know; I've been wondering which of those to put higher on the infinite reading list.

Gassho
Kyōshin
Satlah

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Shinshou]

I, too, think of dukkha as dissatisfaction. Each experience, no matter how enjoyable, contains dissatisfaction, if for no other reason than the deep-down knowledge that it is temporary. Your ice cream cone, your children, your life, no matter how pleasing, will come to an end. I think this is why impermanence is stressed so much, as, in my view, it's the ultimate root of dissatisfaction.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

[Junkyo]

Hi Shinshou!

Yes I agree very much with what you have said! However I think it is our attachment to the impermanent that would be the root cause of suffering, not the impermanence itself. All things are impermanent, that is just a statement of fact, but when we attach to them and treat them as though they are permanent then we suffer when we discover that they are in fact not.

Perhaps Jundo can elaborate and clarify!

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[Tai Do]

This discussion on impermanence and dukkha reminded me of a concept I learned while studying Japanese Philosophy a while ago: mono no aware. Seeing the beauty in impermanence.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/j...NoAwarPathThin

I don’t know if it’s relevant, but I linked it here just in case someone finds it interesting.

Gassho,
Mateus
Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

I, too, think of dukkha as dissatisfaction. Each experience, no matter how enjoyable, contains dissatisfaction, if for no other reason than the deep-down knowledge that it is temporary. Your ice cream cone, your children, your life, no matter how pleasing, will come to an end. I think this is why impermanence is stressed so much, as, in my view, it's the ultimate root of dissatisfaction.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

I think you and Junkyo are really saying the same thing. Yes, impermanence is one root of suffering when we resist and our attachment causes us to so resist. So, much of our practice is learning to flow with the changes, and let change just change. This may actually be an area where Daoist wisdom had some positive effect on Buddhism as it came to China and the two blended a bit.

I often describe that realization of "Emptiness" as something like the "Flowing Wholeness," and we just come to flow along. That does not mean that we life passively and simply adrift, because we try to work our plans and fight impermanence too in life (I go to the gym to preserve my aging body just a little, do not let termites into my wooden house). However, at a deep and overriding place in my heart, I just let age be age, impermanence just impermanence.

As a side note, the Japanese concept of "mono no aware" (the pathos of [the impermanence of] things) probably predated Buddhism coming into Japan. Buddhism helped the Japanese come to grips with their pathos.

Let me borrow from Kakunen and the Wisdom of 80's big hair band Zen ... The "lady" here, of course, represents Satori (the break we are on the brink of) and Emptiness which enters one's "cup" on the table.



Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Do]

I didn’t knew that. Thank you, Jundo. Sometimes it’s difficult to see the impermanence as beautiful, sometimes it’s difficult to let go of dukkha. The Heart Sutra hits the mark on it.
By the way, I loved the Tibetan version and the context it gives to the sutra.

Gassho,
Mateus
Sat/LAH

[Getchi]

I love RedPines HeartSutra.

Unless one loves the six dusts, Mahayana illumination may not appear.

Tricky, profound.

Gassho!

SatToday
LaH - everyday.

I thank us all for our practice.