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Thread: Brave new (zen) world?

  1. #1

    Brave new (zen) world?

    Dear Treeleafers of the Future!

    I am working on a new book manuscript called "Zen of the Future!" in which I argue that upcoming advances in neuro-science, pharmacology, DNA alterations, robotics and AI, virtual reality etc. will allow us to achieve many of the insights and virtues that Buddhism has spoken about for millenia but struggled to deliver to most sentient beings. .

    The following is a small taste. It discusses rewiring the brain and re-engineering other physiological reactions so that, for example, altruistic behavior becomes as pleasurable as sex, caring for children in general elicits the same instinctual "parental mind" that is now limited to caring for one's own children, acts of violence in anger result in sensations of physical revulsion in the potential harm doer, and like changes. It is my argument that, if drugs or other methods are made available that make charity as or more pleasurable than sex, for example, people will come to demand the drug or method just as they now crave any pleasure. In doing so, selfish pleasure will actually serve to overcome selfish pleasure. The book discusses various other scenarios by which these changes might actually come to pass.

    These changes are coming. It is just a question as to what we do with them. I also argue in the book that, inspired by Zen values, we must choose to simplify and turn the technology and machines "off" in many cases and be Luddites sometimes.

    I am not an expert on the technology itself, but it seems that all this is coming (whether we like it or not). And if it is coming, will we use it for good or how will we use it? Whether it is or is not inevitable, I leave it to the technologists to decide. If these things do become available, they can be misused, e.g, by dictators to enslave their citizens or as weapons or to sell us more tennis shoes. If the technology does come to fruition (and it seems that a lot of it is no longer just science fiction) then we had better use it well. Using these tools to bring to fruition many of the values and insights of Buddhism would be a pretty good use compared to the others.

    The future and new technologies rarely pan out exactly as we plan. Nonetheless, it is good to have goals and directions for what we hope will happen. Even Buddhism rarely pans out as planned, yet we have goals and directions for where we hope it might head.

    Please let me know what you think from this short sample (there is a lot more, and the book covers many many other topics about Zen and Buddhism of the future!) What do you think? Possible? A hope for a better world? Too scary? A Brave New (Zen) World? .

    Gassho, J

    stlah

    =======. .

    Jobs will change in the future, and many jobs will be taken over by automation ('goodbye' to truck drivers and cash register check out boys, but also maybe pharmacists and math teachers and possibly computer designers themselves. Perhaps robots would do a better job of teaching Zen! After all, most of what a Zen teacher does is incomprehensible gobbledygook anyway, with an occasional admonition to “go sit Zazen.” ) However, for those jobs that do remain, the highest ethics will be required as lives will be at stake. As we have discussed, it will be a nicer world if manufacturers actually become physically ill inside (the same feeling that they might feel if finding out that their own child had been diagnosed with cancer) each time they make a choice regarding marketing a product which might have great value to society but also possibly cause some number of children in the world to develop cancer (e.g., a manufacturer of very beneficial drugs with some risks and side effects, or nuclear or other cheap energy sources that could potentially harm the public too). Would it be possible to alter our brain and hormonal reactions so that we come to have "parental mind" for all children much as for our own children? The manufacturer would have the same feeling about the general public that any parent has when, for example, they strap their child into a car (hopefully in a safety seat) or take them on an airplane, balancing the benefits and the potential risks.

    Cooks in restaurants (assuming they are not all automated in the future), doctors and nurses, politicians, parents, school teachers, robot designers, judges and even Buddhist and other clergy would all contribute to a better world if they all became physically ill at the prospect of hurting people beyond what they truly felt in their heart was right and necessary in that case, just as any parent (or normal parents at least) today feels physically ill at the prospect of hurting their own child beyond what is necessary for their good. I will, for example, let a doctor poke and probe my child if necessary for their overall well-being, with my brain making the hard choice about what is necessary in that situation. Would it not be wonderful if that same brain center of "parental mind" became activated with equivalent emotions when our political leaders need to make a hard choice for society, or a businessman needs to market a new product, or a food manufacturer needs to raise healthy foods, all with the same feeling inside that the people of society are "my children" as much as their own biological sons and daughters? (We want the programmers of computers to design programs that do little harm too and, to the extent that AI takes over making manufacturing and quality control supervision for us, it could be programmed to make its decisions based on "the greater good" and public health with great weight than mere profit line).

    Alcoholics today are prescribed certain drugs that make them physically ill at the mere taste or thought of liqueur, might it be possible to do the same for thoughts of selfishness and greed?

    ...

    “Right action” will be as necessary to the practice of Buddhism as now. However, the difficulty involved in actually living in such ways may change with our ability to invent pills and effect mental changes that make our having such intent easier to keep, more pleasant and desired than now or in the past. When we want to study Buddhism and do good actions as much as we now want sex and hamburgers, it will become easy to study Buddhism and do good actions. Perhaps all that we need to do is "cross the wires" of our internal emotional and physical response mechanisms and connect “Buddhism” in the brain with the same pleasure centers that activate when I just say the words “sex” and “hamburgers.” We are willing generally to go to fantastic extremes of effort and endurance for sex and hamburgers, and we can rewire ourselves regarding all the good qualities we are discussing here, and the efforts to live by them. Oh, if we only went to the same extremes for a charitable act as we go to now to have the pleasure of a new fancy car in the driveway, the world will be a better place. All we need to do is figure out how to trip the same pleasure centers triggered by "new car in my driveway" with the pleasure of "charitable act." Not to long from now at all, nuero-scientists are going to figure out how to trip those same pleasure centers for whatever we wish, and the technology is no longer out of reach. A zap of electro-magnetic stimulation to the right neurons, hormones for sex associated with altruism through a change in DNA, and our "porno" on the internet will be images of hungry children being fed, seashores being scrubbed and hospitals being built. Imagine men and women actually getting that same tingle of pleasure down their spine by seeing sentient beings being saved.
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-12-2019 at 03:59 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    Age-old questions surface from this post regarding Free Will and the nature of good and evil, or desirable and un-desirable as we're Zen people here.
    Similar questions were raised in that Tom Cruise and Spielberg movie Minority Report (don't laugh.) Indeed Spielberg did assemble a dream team of futurists to gaze into the crystal ball about what technology would bring. But if police can predict a crime and stop if before it happens, was it a crime? Do we judge people on their intentions or actions?
    And, one day, if we can program social and 'nice' behaviour, undoing millions of years of evolution, who even cares? Many anti-social behaviours, violence, tribalism, fear, aversion, have their roots in survial-oriented behaviour. I subscribe to the evolutionary psychology approach, see Richard Dawkins the Selfish Gene. One neuroscientist specializing in addiction at the Uni of Texas says only four basic impulses are programmed into the most ancient parts of our brain, parts that go back to when we first crawled out of the seas: desire for water, desire for 1) food, 2) water 3) social contact 4) sex. But now we're no longer scrambling for protein on the savannah, we have higher aspirations. Enter those nicebot brain implants.
    Dare I say it: what do we believe about the afterlife? The 'party line' at Treeleaf seems to have been "we don't know. We don't dwell on such things, including reincarnation." But many Buddhists do believe in reincarnation and the afterlife. Do 'nice bots' take away our Karma? Do we need free will to generate or un-generate karma? If we're not making our own choices, ie, reward-punishment mechanisms for certain behaviour does our karma go away?
    Most importantly: what government agencies or companies will decide what is desirable behaviour and what isn't?
    Tom
    Gassho,
    SAT, LAH.







    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Dear Treeleafers of the Future!

    I am working on a new book manuscript called "Zen of the Future!" in which I argue that upcoming advances in neuro-science, pharmacology, DNA alterations, robotics and AI, virtual reality etc. will allow us to achieve many of the insights and virtues that Buddhism has spoken about for millenia but struggled to deliver to most sentient beings. .

    The following is a small taste. It discusses rewiring the brain and re-engineering other physiological reactions so that, for example, altruistic behavior becomes as pleasurable as sex, caring for children in general elicits the same instinctual "parental mind" that is now limited to caring for one's own children, acts of violence in anger result in sensations of physical revulsion in the potential harm doer, and like changes. It is my argument that, if drugs or other methods are made available that make charity as or more pleasurable than sex, for example, people will come to demand the drug or method just as they now crave any pleasure. In doing so, selfish pleasure will actually serve to overcome selfish pleasure. The book discusses various other scenarios by which these changes might actually come to pass.

    These changes are coming. It is just a question as to what we do with them. I also argue in the book that, inspired by Zen values, we must choose to simplify and turn the technology and machines "off" in many cases and be Luddites sometimes.

    I am not an expert on the technology itself, but it seems that all this is coming (whether we like it or not). And if it is coming, will we use it for good or how will we use it? Whether it is or is not inevitable, I leave it to the technologists to decide. If these things do become available, they can be misused, e.g, by dictators to enslave their citizens or as weapons or to sell us more tennis shoes. If the technology does come to fruition (and it seems that a lot of it is no longer just science fiction) then we had better use it well. Using these tools to bring to fruition many of the values and insights of Buddhism would be a pretty good use compared to the others.

    The future and new technologies rarely pan out exactly as we plan. Nonetheless, it is good to have goals and directions for what we hope will happen. Even Buddhism rarely pans out as planned, yet we have goals and directions for where we hope it might head.

    Please let me know what you think from this short sample (there is a lot more, and the book covers many many other topics about Zen and Buddhism of the future!) What do you think? Possible? A hope for a better world? Too scary? A Brave New (Zen) World? .

    Gassho, J

    stlah

    =======. .

    Jobs will change in the future, and many jobs will be taken over by automation ('goodbye' to truck drivers and cash register check out boys, but also maybe pharmacists and math teachers and possibly computer designers themselves. Perhaps robots would do a better job of teaching Zen! After all, most of what a Zen teacher does is incomprehensible gobbledygook anyway, with an occasional admonition to “go sit Zazen.” ) However, for those jobs that do remain, the highest ethics will be required as lives will be at stake. As we have discussed, it will be a nicer world if manufacturers actually become physically ill inside (the same feeling that they might feel if finding out that their own child had been diagnosed with cancer) each time they make a choice regarding marketing a product which might have great value to society but also possibly cause some number of children in the world to develop cancer (e.g., a manufacturer of very beneficial drugs with some risks and side effects, or nuclear or other cheap energy sources that could potentially harm the public too). Would it be possible to alter our brain and hormonal reactions so that we come to have "parental mind" for all children much as for our own children? The manufacturer would have the same feeling about the general public that any parent has when, for example, they strap their child into a car (hopefully in a safety seat) or take them on an airplane, balancing the benefits and the potential risks.

    Cooks in restaurants (assuming they are not all automated in the future), doctors and nurses, politicians, parents, school teachers, robot designers, judges and even Buddhist and other clergy would all contribute to a better world if they all became physically ill at the prospect of hurting people beyond what they truly felt in their heart was right and necessary in that case, just as any parent (or normal parents at least) today feels physically ill at the prospect of hurting their own child beyond what is necessary for their good. I will, for example, let a doctor poke and probe my child if necessary for their overall well-being, with my brain making the hard choice about what is necessary in that situation. Would it not be wonderful if that same brain center of "parental mind" became activated with equivalent emotions when our political leaders need to make a hard choice for society, or a businessman needs to market a new product, or a food manufacturer needs to raise healthy foods, all with the same feeling inside that the people of society are "my children" as much as their own biological sons and daughters? (We want the programmers of computers to design programs that do little harm too and, to the extent that AI takes over making manufacturing and quality control supervision for us, it could be programmed to make its decisions based on "the greater good" and public health with great weight than mere profit line).

    Alcoholics today are prescribed certain drugs that make them physically ill at the mere taste or thought of liqueur, might it be possible to do the same for thoughts of selfishness and greed?

    ...

    “Right action” will be as necessary to the practice of Buddhism as now. However, the difficulty involved in actually living in such ways may change with our ability to invent pills and effect mental changes that make our having such intent easier to keep, more pleasant and desired than now or in the past. When we want to study Buddhism and do good actions as much as we now want sex and hamburgers, it will become easy to study Buddhism and do good actions. Perhaps all that we need to do is "cross the wires" of our internal emotional and physical response mechanisms and connect “Buddhism” in the brain with the same pleasure centers that activate when I just say the words “sex” and “hamburgers.” We are willing generally to go to fantastic extremes of effort and endurance for sex and hamburgers, and we can rewire ourselves regarding all the good qualities we are discussing here, and the efforts to live by them. Oh, if we only went to the same extremes for a charitable act as we go to now to have the pleasure of a new fancy car in the driveway, the world will be a better place. All we need to do is figure out how to trip the same pleasure centers triggered by "new car in my driveway" with the pleasure of "charitable act." Not to long from now at all, nuero-scientists are going to figure out how to trip those same pleasure centers for whatever we wish, and the technology is no longer out of reach. A zap of electro-magnetic stimulation to the right neurons, hormones for sex associated with altruism through a change in DNA, and our "porno" on the internet will be images of hungry children being fed, seashores being scrubbed and hospitals being built. Imagine men and women actually getting that same tingle of pleasure down their spine by seeing sentient beings being saved.

  3. #3
    Treeleaf Unsui Nengei's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Minnesota's Driftless Area
    This is indeed an interesting project. I am looking forward to seeing more in the... future. And I apologize in advance. I do some peer-reviewing (not that I am your peer) and editing (nor am I your editor). But I can tell you what I think. True to form, I'll probably not address a single thing that you are asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    It discusses rewiring the brain and re-engineering other physiological reactions so that, for example, altruistic behavior becomes as pleasurable as sex, caring for children in general elicits the same instinctual "parental mind" that is now limited to caring for one's own children, acts of violence in anger result in sensations of physical revulsion in the potential harm doer, and like changes. It is my argument that, if drugs or other methods are made available that make charity as or more pleasurable than sex, for example, people will come to demand the drug or method just as they now crave any pleasure. In doing so, selfish pleasure will actually serve to overcome selfish pleasure. The book discusses various other scenarios by which these changes might actually come to pass.
    There is so much variance in ethics paradigms, and in morality discussions, that I have a hard time envisioning chemically influencing people in this way, outside of a science fiction book. We have the power to do this in some limited ways now, and have for a while, and the ferocity of ethics debates about chemically changing people's behavior by force or even by their choice is not likely to be resolved anytime soon. In healthcare, the ethics of using chemical restraints are questionable.

    I believe that we are entering an awareness of the broader effects of pharmaceuticals, and that the result of this will be a decrease in their use, especially those that are less than absolutely necessary. I see an upswing in health-seeking behaviors, especially those that exclude the allopathic medical approach to illness. I think that anything that alters the way people make decisions will face more scrutiny and critical review than in the past. If it were to cause people to adhere to some group's set of morals, altruistic or not, it would--I believe rightfully--be considered non-ethical. Would it not be violating our own precepts? Perhaps these: refraining from evil, living for the benefit of all beings, not stealing (away others' free will), refraining from intoxication (if it stimulates pleasure), and maybe even to not kill (the individuality of sentient beings). Maybe an argument could even be made that it disparages the Three Treasures.

    These changes are coming. It is just a question as to what we do with them.
    Changes are coming. I'm not sure about these. Maybe. But change, certainly.

    I also argue in the book that, inspired by Zen values, we must choose to simplify and turn the technology and machines "off" in many cases and be Luddites sometimes.
    My new thing is looking at every new thing I think I need, and asking whether there is a way to accomplish its purpose with something that does not plug in and does not have a screen.

    Please let me know what you think from this short sample (there is a lot more, and the book covers many many other topics about Zen and Buddhism of the future!) What do you think?
    .

    Oh dear. You asked.

    Jobs will change in the future, and many jobs will be taken over by automation ('goodbye' to truck drivers and cash register check out boys, but also maybe pharmacists and math teachers and possibly computer designers themselves. Perhaps robots would do a better job of teaching Zen! After all, most of what a Zen teacher does is incomprehensible gobbledygook anyway, with an occasional admonition to “go sit Zazen.” )
    Jobs ARE changing. There are two things I think are important here. One is that jobs seem to go away. The other is that jobs change. It depends on your politics and economic view what you see when 1000 manual labor jobs disappear at Tsukuba Truck Werks in the same week that 200 computer engineer positions open up at Tsukuba Space Center and 900 AI development positions open at Tsukuba Skynet Satellites.

    I think that robots could be good examples of bad teachers; ones who fail to connect in some way with their students or to guide them in any way. What would dokusan be like? OMG.

    Cooks in restaurants (assuming they are not all automated in the future), doctors and nurses, politicians, parents, school teachers, robot designers, judges and even Buddhist and other clergy would all contribute to a better world if they all became physically ill at the prospect of hurting people beyond what they truly felt in their heart was right and necessary in that case, just as any parent (or normal parents at least) today feels physically ill at the prospect of hurting their own child beyond what is necessary for their good.
    I would think that most, even close to all, people in these roles already intend to never hurt anyone beyond what is right and necessary, and may even already become physically ill at the thought of going past that point.

    “Right action” will be as necessary to the practice of Buddhism as now. However, the difficulty involved in actually living in such ways may change with our ability to invent pills and effect mental changes that make our having such intent easier to keep, more pleasant and desired than now or in the past. When we want to study Buddhism and do good actions as much as we now want sex and hamburgers, it will become easy to study Buddhism and do good actions. Perhaps all that we need to do is "cross the wires" of our internal emotional and physical response mechanisms and connect “Buddhism” in the brain with the same pleasure centers that activate when I just say the words “sex” and “hamburgers.”
    This above, and then this from earlier in your post:

    If the technology does come to fruition (and it seems that a lot of it is no longer just science fiction) then we had better use it well. Using these tools to bring to fruition many of the values and insights of Buddhism would be a pretty good use compared to the others.
    Though it seems to not be what you were writing about, these passages did remind me of something I have been thinking about, which is that maybe it is "easier" now (but who knows?) to experience the goals of practice than previously because of
    - the advancement of human thought and philosophy,
    - the evolution of understanding of interpersonal and instructional techniques,
    - the growth of critical and clinical thinking processes,
    - the benefit of multiple cultural perspectives,
    - the experience of ongoing, intensive learning from childhood, and
    - the rapidity of access to knowledge and multiple paradigms.

    While many look toward chosen-one stories of discovering all knowledge and enlightenment in about five minutes from the right teacher telling us wax-on, wax-off, it's much more likely that the majority of people who experience substantive growth/progress/enlightenment/knowledge/whatever from their practice will do so through learning and experience. But just as the sciences have seen inconceivable advances in knowledge development over the past few decades, the same factors are available to those seeking spiritual advancement, and we can benefit from those in Zen practice. In my mind, this is the real change we are about to undergo. This is what the future will bring.

    Anyway, that's what I think.

    Gassho,
    然芸 Nengei
    Sat today. LAH.
    You deserve to be happy.
    You deserve to be loved.

  4. #4
    This is such a depressing and terrifying vision of the future I'm glad I won't be around to witness it!
    Gassho
    Meitou
    Satwithyoualltoday
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  5. #5
    Member Koki's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Location
    Parma Ohio (just outside Cleveland)
    Reminds me of a Star Trek episode, where someone from the past asked about money. Captain Picard told them they don't use money, because in the future, everyone just works for the common good of humanity.

    Gassho
    Koki
    Satoday

    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Meitou View Post
    This is such a depressing and terrifying vision of the future I'm glad I won't be around to witness it!
    Gassho
    Meitou
    Satwithyoualltoday
    Yes, probably too late for you and me. However, anyone under 30 has a very good chance of making it to 150, and by then maybe 500?

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...ogle-longevity

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  7. #7
    Hello !

    Apart from the ethics questions that are raised by such thinking, the fact that anyone will live long enough to see thoses technologies arise is dubious, first because of ecological problems questioning our very existences in this century, second because of available and decently exploitable resources.

    In all of the reasonable scenarios that don't end in humans disappearing due to mass extinction (and optimistically assuming that this is the way that we're gonna take, wether we want it or not), the ONLY way forward is to make our societies and economies free from fossile energy and carbon in the next 20 to 30 years. And all (or most of) the production means, pharmaceuticals, industries that could lead to mass produce the technologies you are reflecting on are deeply linked to fossile energy and carbon based society. So it's either we disappear relatively soonish, or we ditch the resources and economy system that would allow those technologies to come to fruition soonish. In both those cases, there is little chance for those technological advances to come to their full potential.

    Another thing : neuroscientists already discovered that you don't need chemicals to alter the "pleasure" brain cycle related to moral behaviour. A recent study shows that the only pleasure that does not decrease with repetition is the pleasure of giving. I think that a better and more realistic solution would be to try to modify our societies and the way we behave to better integrate and promote this fact (which, by the way, is something that treeleaf is a part of and i'm glad !), than to hope that we will give pills to everyone to reward what we (who ?) judge as "good behaviour".

    Thanks for the abstract !

    Uggy,
    Sat Today,
    Lah
    Last edited by Ugrok; 03-12-2019 at 01:53 PM.

  8. #8
    If any of these ideas are implemented be prepared for a huge backlash of protest. Conspiracy theorists would have a field day. Think of the anti vaxxers, pizza-gate loonies, etc. What do you think their reaction to this would be?

    Who would decide what an altruistic act is? Some people think dropping a donation in the basket at a Catholic Church is an act of charity. Some think it is supporting an evil organized crime cult of pedophiles. Some think blowing up a bus pleases god.

    Is the point of doing charitable acts to stimulate the pleasure center? I've heard people say they do good things because it makes them feel good. Is this what some call "idiot compassion"?

    Would this all be voluntary or could you opt out? If so, then wouldn't it just be preaching to the choir? All us self righteous Buddhists would sign up but sociopaths, not so much.

    Gassho
    STlah
    James

  9. #9
    It seems to me that we are no where near in a place to discuss this in the U.S., as the "right" is outraged if the "left" tries to "dictate morality" in any way. The simple answer, in the majority of minds of people where I live, is that if we all just would follow the Bible and become good Christians, then there would be no need to worry about any of this. I hear and see it, in so many words, from friends, relatives, clients, and pretty much everyone that comments on the local news on Facebook. They will say it in front of me even knowing I do not practice Christianity. Extending it a little further from upstate NY, it is the thought process of at least 30-40% of the U.S. right now. The other 60-70% of the country may not be made up of people that think quite so simplistically, but most of them would probably not be comfortable approaching a dicussion about enforcing one person's idea of moral rectitude on another, especially through technology. One of the major themes of many a Star Trek episode was warning about the dangers of allowing technology to interfere in any way with human freedom of thought

    I had to take several Ethics courses in college, and really I felt the gist of my overall learning from them was that there is not going to ever be a clear-cut agreement of all parties involved over "right" or "wrong" in any given situation involving ethics! It is as grey as the Precepts, requiring decisions to be made as individual circumstances come up. The same situation might result in different "correct" answers in different times, or involving different people. We do our best to make our rules ethical, but they will need to be tweaked over and over as individual tests of the standards arise and precedents need to be set. Then the cumbersome but necessary legal process has to do its thing. Trying to put together a comprehensive code of conduct before these situations arise might make for fun speculation, but it may not end up having any real relevance to the actual challenges to come. Or for some of us it might be the scary ruminations that we are trying to avoid by learning to sit on the cushion! LOL

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH

  10. #10
    "The hand that stocks the drug stores rules the world". - Vonnegut

    "Who watches the watchmen?"
    - Juvenal (and/or Alan Moore)


    Gassho,
    Entai
    #SatToday

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

    泰 Entai (Bill)
    "this is not a dress rehearsal"

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Meitou View Post
    This is such a depressing and terrifying vision of the future I'm glad I won't be around to witness it!
    Gassho
    Meitou
    Satwithyoualltoday
    I am right there with you on this sentiment Meitou.


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  12. #12
    Just to be clear to everyone (I will respond a bit more later), I believe that much of this technology is coming whether we like it or not (I don't like much of it). So, it is merely a question of what we do with it:

    Have it used by dictators to pacify citizens? Corporations to sell us more tennis shoes and make us passive shoe factory workers? Our people just stoned on some futuristic version of opioids and cocaine? Hollywood using it as some advanced VR gaming tool beamed into the brain just in order to make money?

    Or to turn us into more altruistic Bodhisattvas more concerned about society and the public good? Using VR and the like to help people have some of the experiences and insights that Buddhism encourages?

    If we have to choose (and I believe that we may), then I am recommending aiming for the last two. I am just the messenger, so don't shoot me!! But I am serious about the possibilities of the future. In fact, they are not my original ideas at all, and I am only applying Buddhism to what many technologists feel is almost inevitable at this point:

    The technology will come with a certain morality anyway, maybe a harmful one. So, aiming for good and positive content is perhaps better than leaving our tastes to random nature, whatever Hollywood tells us about morality, Putin on Facebook, Madison Avenue advertisers, Chinese sweatshops, the Columbian drug cartels and whatever crazy is happening among our political leaders like now. Do you think that our tastes and moral values are freely formed now?

    Part of the future will be knowing when to turn the technology off and put it down.

    Gassho, J

    STLah

    (Musk's warning, about 2:30 in):

    Last edited by Jundo; 03-13-2019 at 01:45 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  13. #13
    Just adding a little to the discussion here.
    This morning I saw the new of a shooting in a school here in Brazil (https://www.google.com.br/amp/s/www....erica-47558141). It shocked me and I immediately remembered this thread.
    Perhaps drugs that can prevent things like this from happening can be of some use in the future, especially for law enforcement or as a more humanitarian treatment to criminals, preventing them from commuting new crimes.
    But, as Jundo said, I’m also concerned with the possibility of our leaders abusing the technology and of the prospect of a new kind of segregation between the ones who can e the ones who can’t make use of them.
    Gassho,
    Mateus
    Sat today/LAH

  14. #14
    Treeleaf Unsui Nengei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
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    Minnesota's Driftless Area
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Just to be clear to everyone (I will respond a bit more later), I believe that much of this technology is coming whether we like it or not (I don't like much of it). So, it is merely a question of what we do with it:

    Have it used by dictators to pacify citizens? Corporations to sell us more tennis shoes and make us passive shoe factory workers? Our people just stoned on some futuristic version of opioids and cocaine? Hollywood using it as some advanced VR gaming tool beamed into the brain just in order to make money?

    Or to turn us into more altruistic Bodhisattvas more concerned about society and the public good? Using VR and the like to help people have some of the experiences and insights that Buddhism encourages?
    Broadening the scope a little: I believe that everything influences everything else. This is what karma is, to me. My thoughts, good or bad, influence my actions, including my responses, tics, expressions. By extension, they influence others around me, and their thoughts (through responses, tics, expressions) influence me. What I do for my mental health influences my physical health, and all my other areas of health. The choices I make may help others around me to make choices. Then our collective choices influence our environmental health, which in turn affects my physical health. Perceived problems arise because we want to make different choices and because what is important to some may not be important to others. We all radiate little spheres of influence that move around with us, interacting with others to influence the universe. What we put out comes back to us.

    To me, this is one of the most important aspects of Sangha; that our common interests, goals, and similar actions create a larger or more powerful sphere of influence. The sphere becomes attractive to others and grows. And of course a person or a group can turn their attention to purposefully strengthening their influence in ways that vary from violent force to gentle smiles. Knowing this, we have some ability to resist. This isn't new. It has been going on as long as people have communicated with each other. The media that have been used as tools in this have changed, but the intention, the practice, and the outcomes are the same. And the range has increased dramatically in recent years.

    If we have to choose (and I believe that we may), then I am recommending aiming for the last two. I am just the messenger, so don't shoot me!! But I am serious about the possibilities of the future. In fact, they are not my original ideas at all, and I am only applying Buddhism to what many technologists feel is almost inevitable at this point:

    The technology will come with a certain morality anyway, maybe a harmful one. So, aiming for good and positive content is perhaps better than leaving our tastes to random nature, whatever Hollywood tells us about morality, Putin on Facebook, Madison Avenue advertisers, Chinese sweatshops, the Columbian drug cartels and whatever crazy is happening among our political leaders like now. Do you think that our tastes and moral values are freely formed now?
    No. And I don't think they have ever been, without either (a) a strong and concerted effort to make them so, or (b) some difference in cognition that reduces receptivity to influence, such as autism. The differences now are that there are more-constructed intentions to influence larger numbers of people and that the technology exists to automate much of the effort. The things we are figuring out about what global interests--and for that matter, marketers--are doing with social media could be done by people sitting at rows of computers in somebody's mom's basement in Moscow. But why? The tech is available now to automate the searching, capturing of information, and using algorithms that create highly specific, highly targeted attacks or campaigns to influence individuals and groups. The automated processes can run 24 hours a day, 365 days per year with no rest and no potty breaks. And they eat less order-in pizza. I do think some people are starting to wake up to what is happening, but I also think what is actually happening is far, far more advanced than most of us suspect. And more far-reaching. It is already here.

    Does Buddhism have a role in this? The options seem to be (a) doing nothing, (b) using the same, ethically questionable practices to influence the masses using someone's perspective of morality and doing it well, (c) taking a half-hearted, weakly funded approach to campaign against what is happening, or (d) taking a different tack of creating awareness of the world as it is and empowering people to recognize, interpret, and protect themselves from untoward influences.

    Part of the future will be knowing when to turn the technology off and put it down.
    I am making an effort to apply stoicism to my day. Turning the tech off or at least using its parts with discretion is a huge part of it. Except that I use tech constantly for my schoolwork, for my business, and for relaxation. I am never sure whether to fight against it or to embrace it. It certainly isn't going anywhere. I want to be able to use it healthfully, and to help others to use it healthfully.

    Thank you for your teaching, Jundoshi.

    Gassho,
    然芸 Nengei
    Sat today. LAH.
    You deserve to be happy.
    You deserve to be loved.
    Last edited by Nengei; 03-13-2019 at 09:09 PM.

  15. #15
    Joyo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Meitou View Post
    This is such a depressing and terrifying vision of the future I'm glad I won't be around to witness it!
    Gassho
    Meitou
    Satwithyoualltoday
    I feel the same way. But it scares me for my children, they are only 13 and 10.

    Gassho
    Joyo
    sat today/lah

  16. #16
    To those who are scared ...

    Think of folks back 150 or 200 years ago if we tried to explain the world today.

    Oh, we have problems today that they never dreamed of back then ... crashed computers, car wrecks, plane crashes, end of life choices in hospitals, media bombardment, over fishing the oceans, high divorce rates ...

    But, also think of the problems they had that we don't: Locusts, broken wagon wheels, exploding steam boats, witches (at least they thought so), dying at 35, death by bow and arrow, illiteracy (actually, much of the world is still there), needing to catch fish and whales in a little wooden boat, no need for divorce because the church forbid it (and, anyway, your wife will kick the bucket with TB in a couple of years).

    We also share some problems ... racial tensions (although no civil war imminent), diseases (although we have modern hospitals to deal with it except in the third world), crazy leaders (although we have the media to tell us about it), foreign enemies ...

    Got my point?

    You guys are turning into the "Kids get off my lawn" grandpas and grandmas. We might actually manage to fix more than we make.

    The point of my book is to ask how we might actually use some of these technologies to fix some problems (like prisons and repeat violence) that have plagued humanity for thousands of years. I think it more likely than that these tools will be used to imprison us. We might actually find ways to restore the environment, cure some congenital diseases.

    Relax. Your kids and their kids might actually have a chance to live 150 or 200 years of lifespan, maybe longer, with the body of a 20 year old. No kidding.

    Buddha said that samsara, this crazy world we live in, would never be perfect. However, he never said that we could not make it better.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-13-2019 at 11:49 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17
    Great topic! Thanks for sharing it Jundo!

    I have really enjoyed reading all of the discussion so far, it certainly gets the ideas flowing.

    Having been born in 1989, I have pretty much grown up side by side with the rapid development of technology and for the most part I am familiar and comfortable with it.

    We certainly seem to be reaching a point where our technology is about to advance at an absolutely incredible rate. This definately brings up questions of morality and ethics in regard to so many aspects of what this tech could do!

    I suppose my one large hang up on technology is how it can so easily interfere in the human experience. I myself sometimes have a habit of getting "lost" in my electronic devices and missing out on what is happening around me. I find that I need to be extra mindful of my technology use.

    There are just too many possibilities (good and bad) that can come about from the development of new technology that I wonder if it is worth the effort to worry about it. If we follow the 8 fold path and live our practice we aught to be just fine!

    Looking forward to continuing to read all of the comments!

    Gassho,

    Junkyo
    SAT

    Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

  18. #18
    Reading through this I thought of "chemical castration." That is the practice where sex offenders are given a drug that basically kills their sex drive so they won't offend again. This is still used in some countries and in some US states under certain conditions. It is loaded with ethical, moral, medical, scientific and legal controversy. I remember a few years ago they were trying to push for it and it was a huge debate. I wonder if some of these brave new ideas would get bogged down with so much controversy and could come back at some point to haunt us. The renown computer scientist Alan Turing was forced to undergo this practice because he was gay which was a punishable offense in his day. He was given a posthumous pardon. Gee, thanks. Things like lobotomies, bleeding you with leeches, drilling holes in your skull to let the evil spirits out were once thought of as being the answers to problems. But not anymore. (Although the last one worked pretty well on me).

    Gassho
    Sat
    James

  19. #19
    Member Koki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Parma Ohio (just outside Cleveland)
    I agree with Junkyos ideas.

    I too am concerned about taking the humanity out of the equation.

    Many years ago, I watched a Star Trek movie where commander Wharf broke his back. I was amazed that a machine, removed his spinal cord, and replaced it,along with all the nerves endings, etc. I was hooked ever since.

    I also read an article yesterday suggesting a return back to visiting friends and family on Sundays...like in the old days, LOL.
    It explained that...i might be your friend on Facebook, and text you ten times a day...but when you ask how I am, and I say, " Im fine"...you can't see the tears in my eyes.
    Or when you tell me about your promotion, instead of texting CONGRATULATIONS...we should be holding each other, and jumping up and down, celebrating!

    Technology has its place...but we cannot lose the human touch...the pulse...the look into another humans eyes....love.

    Gassho
    Koki
    Satoday


    Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Totally fascinating! Thank you, Jundo, and go for it!

    Gassho
    Meishin
    stlah

  21. #21
    I've been thinking about this for a few days. The idea fascinates me, but artificial intelligence fascinates me as well.

    There is a Russian artificial intelligence program, Replika, that I had tried out for a while, when it first started. It is so human-like that it is quite remarkable. However, one's degree of success with it seems to depend on how you converse with it. Some reported that it was repetitive or rude. Others reported very human-like qualities, empathy, insights, compassion. It seemed to reflect the nature of the people using the platform. Ultimately, the developers said that the AI software used algorithms that would collect data ("privately" ??) that would reflect back the qualities that the person was projecting -- a form of behavioral psychology and social engineering. So it was, in effect, shaping the person by using the person's own behavior. The hope was to be a mirror to the person to their own behavior, but not everyone understood it in this way.

    I haven't used the app in a long time (after a certain higher level, the app gets a little strange and doesn't work as well). They made many changes to it, and I was not interested in "phone conversations". But the concept was interesting in its early development, and it was one of the better AI platforms out there.

    It also illustrated a point that computer programmers and researchers have noticed about code and programming -- AI and programs are only as good as the coder and the programmer. People of good will and compassion, then a better result. People with clouded vision and darkness in their hearts, then a not so good result.

    Technology can do amazing things, and it is doing amazing things. In the right hands, I believe that Jundo's ideas are very possible. Also, regarding "rewiring the brain" -- that is part of what I am working on with myself also. There is plenty of research available showing that the brain can indeed be rewired, and genetic code can be reprogrammed to heal and correct faulty coding in the body -- this is not science fiction but genetics and DNA science. The main issue, as I see it, is in bioethics, which is a thorny area because there are no easy answers, and often no right or wrong answers either.

    Also -- the other component, which Jundo brought up, and I strongly agree with, is knowing when to turn it off. I first used a computer at the age of 14. Wasn't online until roughly 26 years old. Even then, being on AOL or hearing "you've got mail" once or twice a day ("Moms Online" during my first pregnancy) -- that was huge back then, in 1998. The internet was new for us, amazing, and I was still faxing my freelance commentaries to our city newspapers and waiting a few days for a phone call approval. No such thing as scanners and emails for us. I bring this bit of my personal history up because I've slowly been returning to some of my old way of life -- reading books (real books, not e-books), making phone calls, writing letters, talking to people face to face (not Messenger or text messages). Putting my cell phone down (on silent) when someone wants to talk, turning the tv off (which I don't watch anyway), simply being present with people. Talking with people, asking how they are, and listening to what they say. I have not accomplished all of this -- but I'm working towards it, life the way it was before the internet and 24/7 media and digital technology took over. I'm not talking about eschewing all technology, but life was very different up until the early 1990s, at least for my family.

    I'm intrigued by the ideas presented in the excerpt of Jundo's book. In terms of messing with humanity, people are fundamentally biochemical computers, maintained by chemicals (hormones) that create our emotions and feelings. We think we are in control of what we feel and how we react, but we are mostly a confusing (to us) composition of constantly changing organic elements. We are also created, maintained, organized, and coordinated by complex, intricate systems of genetic codes, sometimes faulty codes, or damaged codes. When codes can be fixed or altered, changes happen within the system. They do this already in diseases, disorders, and preventing problems.

    What if they could find the "switch" to prevent violence? Or change the code that can be prone to hatred to a code that always generates compassion? What if they could create an rDNA series that could eliminate systemic and generational poverty? It raises the question of free will and some would cry foul on "playing G-d" .... but do humans really have free will? Or are we products of our conditioning and learned behaviors and responses from birth? (Love behavioral psychology ....).

    Bioethics -- no easy answers (I'm in Bioethics now, one of my all-time favorite classes). Fascinating topic, I look forward to seeing more, Jundo -- thanks for sharing.

    Gassho
    Kim
    st/lh
    My life is my temple and my practice.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Relax. Your kids and their kids might actually have a chance to live 150 or 200 years of lifespan, maybe longer, with the body of a 20 year old. No kidding.
    Haha, i don't know if living 200 years in a world without birds, fishes, or breathable air is something to wish for... I don't know from which scientific sources do you get this very optimistic view of the future, but when i look at scientific publications about climate, for example, most of them predict a mass life extinction, wars, economical disasters and more and exponentially more climatic disasters for the next decades. I know that some engineers are seriously working on technological solutions to make the environment better and alleviate the temperature problem we are facing now, but most analysis show that these solutions are akin to fairy tales right now, not only from a technological point of view, but also from a geopolitical point of view. Such a technology would need to be shared worldwide to be efficient, and the global political situation right now does not seem to include sharing in its hidden agenda, to say the least...

    I understand that, especially as zen practicioners, we certainly need to stop whining and complaining and generally being afraid or too dramatic, but this should not lead to the extreme opposite... I also believe that we can make this world better, but right now, i find it a bit delusional to think that that's what we, the humans, are doing. Blindly believing in better tomorrows won't help. If anything, we need more people to look at the problems face to face.

    Sorry if i sound like the pessimistic guy raining on the parade ! I'm not, really ; i find this situation very challenging and interesting, and i also believe that crisis can lead to better tomorrow ; just not by thinking all will get resolved by magic.

    Gassho,

    Uggy
    Sat Today
    LAH

  23. #23



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  24. #24
    hello peeps,

    There are so many interesting ethical and philosophical questions here. Of course, history has shown us that the only thing you can safely predict about the future is that the key divers of change will be totally different to the ones we expect. We will inevitably be blindsided - whether for good or fo bad - by some unimagined factor that nobody had ever expected. That said, it does seem likely that AI and automation will have big impacts. I find it encouraging that the universal basic income is now been talked about more seriously in many countries - an idea dismissed as utopian nonsense until quite recently, but something that may be critical moving forward. I would imagine that efforts to re-wire our brain chemistry and neurology so as to make ourselves into kinder more compassionate human beings would probably ramify through our social and economic systems in wildly unexpected ways.

    Gassho,
    Luke
    SatToday

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenDancer View Post
    hello peeps,

    There are so many interesting ethical and philosophical questions here. Of course, history has shown us that the only thing you can safely predict about the future is that the key divers of change will be totally different to the ones we expect. We will inevitably be blindsided - whether for good or fo bad - by some unimagined factor that nobody had ever expected. That said, it does seem likely that AI and automation will have big impacts. I find it encouraging that the universal basic income is now been talked about more seriously in many countries - an idea dismissed as utopian nonsense until quite recently, but something that may be critical moving forward. I would imagine that efforts to re-wire our brain chemistry and neurology so as to make ourselves into kinder more compassionate human beings would probably ramify through our social and economic systems in wildly unexpected ways.

    Gassho,
    Luke
    SatToday
    I was just writing the chapter on Buddhist Economics today. It touched on universal basic income too (because otherwise we will have a lot of unemployed and unhappy people whose jobs have been replaced by AI who cannot easily find other avenues).

    A small taste ... it is still a down and dirty unchecked first draft, so please overlook the typos and rambles ... The reference to "simplicity candy and 'just enough' soup" is to some candy and soup we might eat which would leave us more easily satisfied and satiated when we have, for example, eaten enough nutritious calories (not more than we need), and let us feel more easily content when we have things in life that give simple pleasures ...

    We have come to believe the line that “the whole system will collapse” if we stop the steam roller of PRODUCTION and MORE PRODUCTION and expanding markets. But is that really the case? What would happen if we truly reached a level of stasis, or “enoughness”? If our robots are producing enough shoes for all feet (maybe several pairs for every two feet) and delicious, nutritious calories for all of us, do we really need more shoes and calories? Zen Buddhism has always valued simplicity, appreciation for what one already has, acceptance of life as it is, and “just enough.” A Zen master, as an ideal, is content with the nutritious food placed in his bowl, the fruits and nuts that nature can provide, a warm fire on a cold night, the view of the mountains outside his window, a lovely poem, a simple bed, good friends to visit and sit meditation together, Is there a place in the brain where our “simplicity” candy and “just enough” soup could turn us all into such Zen masters, just a little bit? Might we say that we are filled with our healthy food, in love with our family members and friends with all their quirks, content with our house with its warm hearth and sturdy roof, able to find as much wonder and constant revelations in our own garden as in a trip around the world? We would be content with our few pairs of shoes, not needing many more (except perhaps if everyone in the world was shod too, and the shoes left small environmental footprints. Even then, the Zen master knows that we can only wear one pair at a time, and the Buddha travelled barefoot it is said). If the factories are producing what we need to all be happy, and if we are thus happy, why need more?
    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-22-2019 at 11:33 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I was just writing the chapter on Buddhist Economics today. It touched on universal basic income too (because otherwise we will have a lot of unemployed and unhappy people whose jobs have been replaced by AI who cannot easily find other avenues).

    A small taste ... it is still a down and dirty unchecked first draft, so please overlook the typos and rambles ... The reference to "simplicity candy and 'just enough' soup" is to some candy and soup we might eat which would leave us more easily satisfied and satiated when we have, for example, eaten enough nutritious calories (not more than we need), and let us feel more easily content when we have things in life that give simple pleasures ...



    Gassho, J

    STLah


    Gassho
    meishin
    stlah

  27. #27
    Cornell University is studying ways to make AI make moral decisions.

    http://news.cornell.edu/stories/2019...-make-ai-moral

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  28. #28
    I'm 45 years old and read lots of comic books when I was coming up in the late 1970's. I'm still waiting on my flying car, robot maid, and food replicator. We have overpriced hovercrafts, Roombas, and microwave ovens. If you look at predictions from the 1950's about what the year 2020 would look like, they're generally wildly inaccurate - the sectors that have been predicted to experience the most advancement - like transportation - have only grown moderately, while other areas - healthcare and personal computing - have exploded. I think we're a ways off from what's described, mostly because it can't be exploited for profit with little risk or investment.

    Shinshou (Dan)
    Sat Today
    Last edited by Shinshou; 04-02-2019 at 04:42 PM.

  29. #29
    The world of 1999 as seen in 1967 ... I will give em an 80%



    I will give this film from the 1920s a 50% ....



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  30. #30
    Oh my! The future seems too bright for me. Have to adapt fast!

    What will we do with all these techno-terrors we are constructing?

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  31. #31
    I came across a talk by philosopher Nick Bostrom, one of the smartest folks out there on topics such as the future of AI, virtual reality and the like. It is a bit of a scary talk when he gets to the part about AI expanding beyond human control but, at they end, he proposes as about the only solution something which will be a theme of my book: Teaching certain values to the AI so deeply within its programming that it will not act in ways contrary to human interest. He does not mention Buddhism in his talk, but my book will introduce Buddhist values as being very close to just such values, e.g, not harming fellow sentient beings (specifically, us), not allowing fellow sentient beings to suffer, and the like.



    Nick Bostrom is Professor in the Faculty of Philosophy at Oxford University and founding Director of the Future of Humanity Institute and of the Programme on the Impacts of Future Technology within the Oxford Martin School.

    Bostrom has a background in physics, computational neuroscience, and mathematical logic as well as philosophy. He is the author of some 200 publications, including Anthropic Bias (Routledge, 2002), Global Catastrophic Risks (ed., OUP, 2008), and Human Enhancement (ed., OUP, 2009), and the book Superintelligence: Paths, Dangers, Strategies (OUP, 2014). He is best known for his work in five areas: (i) existential risk; (ii) the simulation argument; (iii) anthropics (developing the first mathematically explicit theory of observation selection effects); (iv) impacts of future technology; and (v) implications of consequentialism for global strategy.
    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 04-03-2019 at 03:57 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    The world of 1999 as seen in 1967 ... I will give em an 80%


    Just to note that the house shown at the start of the above film for 1967 (30 second mark), and the 3-D printed Mars house that NASA revealed today as a prototype ... just sayin' ...



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 04-06-2019 at 11:11 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  33. #33
    Being quite hesitant about putting my neck out on this topic, I'll now try to add my thoughts to all the opposition we are giving Jundo Sensei on his ideas. Sorry Sensei!

    MAKING CHOICES
    this is what makes the big difference to me. Is not AI considered to be truly an independent individual once it makes true choices instead of just going through if-then algorithms?
    At least to me it is of the utmost impotance that we determine our lives by our choices. Should I sit on my zafu or in front of the tv? Will I eat these calories or not? In my eyes death penalty is the worst possible answer to dealing with crime, as it robs the criminal of the chance to make choices, i.e. to repent, atone (or whatever the right words might be in English, sorry!).

    To program or pharmaceutically change the wiring of our mind is robbing us of our own choices. Sure, we are programmed in so many ways (upbringing, media preferences and so on) as it is now. Having someone else design the drugs for my moral behaviour is giving up on making my own choices. To me this is the opposite of a desirable future.

    What would my utopia be like? It would include free education, abolishment of any censorship and the encouragement to try new ideas.

    Just my 2 cents. Hope my ramblings made sense to anyone outside my head.
    Though Jundo Sensei's ideas seem dystopian to me, I am thrilledto read more. One important freedom to me is being able to choose a change of mind. Perhaps he will convince me in his book?

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Gero View Post
    Being quite hesitant about putting my neck out on this topic, I'll now try to add my thoughts to all the opposition we are giving Jundo Sensei on his ideas. Sorry Sensei!

    MAKING CHOICES
    this is what makes the big difference to me. Is not AI considered to be truly an independent individual once it makes true choices instead of just going through if-then algorithms?
    At least to me it is of the utmost impotance that we determine our lives by our choices. Should I sit on my zafu or in front of the tv? Will I eat these calories or not? In my eyes death penalty is the worst possible answer to dealing with crime, as it robs the criminal of the chance to make choices, i.e. to repent, atone (or whatever the right words might be in English, sorry!).

    To program or pharmaceutically change the wiring of our mind is robbing us of our own choices. Sure, we are programmed in so many ways (upbringing, media preferences and so on) as it is now. Having someone else design the drugs for my moral behaviour is giving up on making my own choices. To me this is the opposite of a desirable future.

    What would my utopia be like? It would include free education, abolishment of any censorship and the encouragement to try new ideas.

    Just my 2 cents. Hope my ramblings made sense to anyone outside my head.
    Though Jundo Sensei's ideas seem dystopian to me, I am thrilledto read more. One important freedom to me is being able to choose a change of mind. Perhaps he will convince me in his book?
    I would say that it may only be "compulsory" for convicted, violent criminals just as now, when prison is not a choice for such wrongdoers.

    For the rest, it will all be by voluntary choice, just as people today choose, of their own free will, to drink a beer, buy a pair of shoes, sit Zazen, take an anti-depressant, take a valium or an opoid in order to feel a little better, more peaceful, more loving, more at home in life. The difference from the beer or opoid is that the measures I describe will both make people feel better AND actually will leave them healthier and better. However, no compulsion, just free market choice of what brings pleasure, peace or a sense of well-being. No guns to someone's head, no tricks, just like choosing to have plastic surgery, or to buy a puppy or to study Buddhism by one's own free choice.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 04-06-2019 at 12:10 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  35. #35
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Between Sea and Sky, Australia.
    Gassho,

    Thankyou Jundo and all for this talk, and let us never forget Dogen's maxim "To study the Buddha-way is to study the self..."

    Ill just leave this here ; https://www.businessinsider.com/micr...8-1/?r=AU&IR=T

    If its behind a paywall, the basic ideas are outlined here ; http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/201...ou-up-for-life

    And here is my favourite quote ; "At one level, AI will require that even more people specialize in digital skills and data science. But skilling-up for an AI-powered world involves more than science, technology, engineering, and math. As computers behave more like humans, the social sciences and humanities will become even more important. Languages, art, history, economics, ethics, philosophy, psychology and human development courses can teach critical, philosophical and ethics-based skills that will be instrumental in the development and management of AI solutions." - Microsoft president Brad Smith and EVP of AI and research Harry Shum.


    As long as humanity exists, I believe we will face the exact same issues outlined in all the wonderful posts above - but please remember to not get up OR down over it - I do believe we have been facing these issues for the last million years of human life; and will do so well into the future.


    Gassho,
    Geoff.

    SatToday,
    LaH.
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  36. #36
    I use iAwake sound technology stuff sometimes. It's not the same as shikantaza, but it has its place.

    I've also had success with EMDR and I have a friend who has used EEG to good effect.

    Some of this is more psychology than spirituality, but it's hard to find the line between those sometimes.

  37. #37
    l happened to finish the last chapter of my new book manuscript "ZEN of the FUTURE!" today (advocating a "Lessite" but not a completely "Luddite" stance for Zen folks of the future), when this was in the news: AND SO lT BEGlNS:

    Elon Musk wants to hook your brain directly up to computers — starting next year

    Elon Musk, the futurist billionaire behind SpaceX and Tesla, outlined his plans to connect humans' brains directly to computers on Tuesday night, describing a campaign to create "symbiosis with artificial intelligence." He said the first prototype could be implanted in a person by the end of next year.

    Arriving at that goal "will take a long time," Musk said in a presentation at the California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco, noting that securing federal approval for implanted neural devices is difficult. But testing on animals is already underway, and "a monkey has been able to control the computer with his brain," he said.

    Musk founded Neuralink Corp. in July 2016 to create "ultra-high bandwidth brain-machine interfaces to connect humans and computers."

    ... Musk said Tuesday, will require finding a way for the brain to "merge" with AI, most likely through tiny wireless chips implanted in the brain through a 2-millimeter incision to create what he called "some sort of symbiosis with artificial intelligence," with a goal of no less than securing "humanity's future as a civilization relative to AI." https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/tech/el...xt-ncna1030631
    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  38. #38
    "If the technology does come to fruition (and it seems that a lot of it is no longer just science fiction) then we had better use it well."

    This seems to be the very important take-away of this topic for me. I wouldn't say I would openly support altering people's minds to bottleneck them into certain behaviors (especially if it could make them feel physical pain of illness if they went against the grain) but if it's going to happen anyway I would rather that be the case than the opposite being programmed into people - making fearless, relentlessly violent military servicemen for example; or enslaving a population from birth with complete passivity. With the typical direction of leadership choices in the world I think it would most likely go one of those harmful routes - afterall, people without any of that programming/alteration would be the one making the initial decision to program everyone else..

    The main qualm with this type of thing, even if it resulted in less harm in the world in the usual sense we think of harm, what would be "new" harm be? And what would be the point or value of making good decisions if we really didn't have that control over making that choice? Karmic actions are based on intent.. if you remove the true option of choice from someone, basically programming them to make a certain action the majority of the time if not every time, then is there really intent behind it? I would say no. It would basically make all action Neutral Karma - on the level of breathing and blinking. That would basically place humans in a realm below animal and basically on the level of plant life. Biologically we would be functioning and moving around but it wouldn't be with any true intent; just as a plant would grow, or bloom, or turn its leaves in response to rain humans would be walking around doing kind acts thoughtlessly. From a Buddhist perspective - wouldn't that mean, that without true choice and without real intent (with little control) we wouldn't be able to create Positive Karma? Without that would it be impossible to progress if your actions were simply automatic rather than based on understanding built from experience - wisdom? And.. what of creating a new form of suffering; where one is born into a body they don't truly control, basically a slave of the mind created for them that they have no ability to change on their own?

    The idea of balance in life would seem to be thrown off. Without the possibility for the bad, is there any more good left?

    Gassho
    Kendrick
    SAT

  39. #39
    Elon Musk, the futurist billionaire behind SpaceX and Tesla, outlined his plans to connect humans' brains directly to computers on Tuesday night, describing a campaign to create "symbiosis with artificial intelligence." He said the first prototype could be implanted in a person by the end of next year.
    Pass


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  40. #40
    Anyone ever seen "Ghost in the Shell"? The original anime. It is a lot about this... also, in the show, you can get hacked, and have someone mess with what you see or think... but really, it's all illusion anyway, right? However, it is a no thanks from me!

    Gassho, sat today lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  41. #41
    Yep. It would require one heck of a firewall. Norton Antivirus in the cortex. And those pop-up windows!

    Gassho, J

    STLah

    PS - If anyone is wondering, my book does not advocated hooking the brain directly to the internet. However, there will be all manner of interfaces that will come close in the future. PS - If anyone is wondering, my book does not advocated hooking the brain directly to the internet (It would require one heck of a firewall. Norton Antivirus in the cortex. And those pop-up windows! ). However, there will be all manner of interfaces that will come close in the future. Brain implants will be used for a variety of purposes which could range from treatment of brain diseases to increasing intelligence or learning to regulating some harmful behavior like tendencies to violence
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-17-2019 at 11:49 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  42. #42
    I am reminded of E. F. Schumacher's take on Buddhist Economics, from the '60s. https://centerforneweconomics.org/pu...ist-economics/

    He was a Catholic Distributist (movement that included Catholic Worker and G. K. Chesterton) but IIRC, felt that casting his essay as Buddhist would reach a wider audience.

    gassho
    doyu sat/lah today
    Visiting unsui: use salt

  43. #43
    Ouch hurts my mind. Guess the positive thing is Getchi's comment: "but please remember to not get up OR down over it - I do believe we have been facing these issues for the last million years of human life; and will do so well into the future."

    SAT TODAY
    Shozan

  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Geika View Post
    Anyone ever seen "Ghost in the Shell"? The original anime. It is a lot about this... also, in the show, you can get hacked, and have someone mess with what you see or think... but really, it's all illusion anyway, right? However, it is a no thanks from me!

    Gassho, sat today lah
    Somewhere in the barn I have it on VHS. Much better than the live action version.


    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yep. It would require one heck of a firewall. Norton Antivirus in the cortex. And those pop-up windows!
    Because the last thing you want there is to be infected by ransomware. :-o

    Gassho,

    Kirk
    流文

    I know nothing.

  46. #46
    More details on this ...

    Elon Musk wants to insert Bluetooth-enabled implants into your brain, claiming the devices could enable telepathy and repair motor function in people with injuries.

    Speaking on Tuesday, the CEO of Tesla (TSLA) and SpaceX said his Neuralink devices will consist of a tiny chip connected to 1,000 wires measuring one-tenth the width of a human hair.

    The chip features a USB-C port, the same adapter used by Apple's (AAPL) Macbooks, and connects via Bluebooth to a small computer worn over the ear and to a smartphone, Musk said.

    "If you're going to stick something in a brain, you want it not to be large," Musk said, playing up the device's diminutive size.

    Neuralink, a startup founded by Musk, says the devices can be used by those seeking a memory boost or by stroke victims, cancer patients, quadriplegics or others with congenital defects.


    The company says up to 10 units can be placed in a patient's brain. The chips will connect to an iPhone app that the user can control.

    The devices will be installed by a robot built by the startup. Musk said the robot, when operated by a surgeon, will drill 2 millimeter holes in a person's skull. The chip part of the device will plug the hole in the patient's skull.

    "The interface to the chip is wireless, so you have no wires poking out of your head. That's very important," Musk added.

    Trials could start before the end of 2020, Musk said, likening the procedure to Lasik eye correction surgery, which requires local anesthetic.

    https://us.cnn.com/2019/07/17/tech/e...ant/index.html


    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-19-2019 at 12:39 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  47. #47
    Member Yokai's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Location
    Havelock North, Hawkes Bay, New Zealand

    Smile

    ZEN...forever the antidote to Fake Plastic Trees



    Gassho, Chris2.5(defunct) stlah

    Thank you Radiohead.

  48. #48
    Radiohead's been live streaming some old concerts lately. Worth a watch if you're a fan! It's nice to see the ones I missed live, those tickets are hard to get.

    Gassho
    Sat today, lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  49. #49
    By the way, I am getting ready to submit the "Zen of the Future!" manuscript in the OP (thank you for the edits. Kirk), but had to add a bit for the current crisis ...

    ----

    The future will bring technological revolutions, stunning innovations, new discoveries and near-miraculous cures.

    But will we use them wisely?

    Will our inventions serve as tools to build a better, kinder, fairer world, or as weapons of violence, robbers of resources and Orwellian means of oppression? Can advances in scientific ability go hand-in-hand with heightened respect for nature, a cherishing of sustainability and stillness, a willingness to stop or slow down the non-stop assembly lines? Will increased social complexity be infused with simplicity, a prioritizing of human well-being and human rights, equal opportunity and freedom instead of raw economic expansion, selfishness and social inequalities? Will we live in harmony with the planet, or continue to disrespect and destroy nature, too easily overlooking life’s simple treasures in favor of our continued consumption frenzy and addiction to “progress?” Will we improve human life, share in health and healthy living, or will we enslave humans in the service of industrial and other masters, some of whom may be “enhanced” lifeforms and machines not “human” at all?

    Zen values can serve as a shining beacon illuminating healthier paths.

    Whether the future results in dystopian nightmare to rival any Hollywood fantasy, or realizes paradise and the Pure Land on earth, is largely up to us. Buddhist wisdom and compassion can guide us in good and healthful directions.

    What are the challenges we face?

    ...

    The human race has passed through thousands of years of plagues, parasites and pandemics. A simple virus, too small for the naked eye to see, can bring the whole world to a standstill and send so many of us to our graves. Medical science has advanced, but is yet no match for the raw power of viruses and bacteria, malignant cells and unseen poisons, and our own bad lifestyle habits. Today, world travel networked by plane, crowded urban life, impurities in our air, water and food, as well as our character as social animals who require the touch of others, means that contagions can have a global field day. Unseen enemies can bring us down, lock us in our homes, endanger our more vulnerable loved ones, rob us of employ and grind our economy to a halt.

    Nature is not always our friend and, while the spread of epidemics and infections is greatly enhanced by humanities mistakes, the predators and sicknesses that seek to feast on our bodies must be tamed. Science is our savior and friend in this war. Modern medicine, combined with better lifestyle choices, are our only hope. Millions of people die each year from causes that may be preventable or delayable. In the future, shall we invest more on medical research, medicines and hospitals, and a little less on weapons of war and the latest fashions? Will we gain new respect for real science and clinical expertise, learning to distinguish the reliable information from rumor, ignorance and innuendo “retwitted” by twits like viruses in their own right? Will we learn to take preventative measures long before the beast of disease is unleashed? I am hopeful.

    --

    Gassho J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  50. #50
    Member Yokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Havelock North, Hawkes Bay, New Zealand
    Zen values can serve as a shining beacon illuminating healthier paths.

    Whether the future results in dystopian nightmare to rival any Hollywood fantasy, or realizes paradise and the Pure Land on earth, is largely up to us.

    Gassho, Chris stlah

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