Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Versions of Shobogenzo and nine bows

  1. #1

    Versions of Shobogenzo and nine bows

    Some people here close their posts with nine bows and I wonder what that means. Secondly, is there a difference between Shobogenzo and Shobogenzo Zuimonki? You see, I looked up Shobogenzo and I found a free copy of Shobogenzo Zuimonki at the website of the official Soto Zen Buddhism website, but I also came across the four books of Nishijima Roshi's Shobogenzo, and the good thing is that they are available where I live. Would you recommend any specific translation of Shobogenzo?

    Gassho,
    Jack
    Sattoday/lah

  2. #2
    Hello kakedashi, i hope i can help you so far:

    To the Shobogenzo: the central teachings of master dogen and the foundament of soto school.. I like the nishijima/cross-translation, but work with another nishijima-based translation in german language.

    the Shobogenzo-zuimonki is a collection of informal dharma talks, very interesting stuff

    9 bows: afaik a way to express deepest respect

    Gassho,
    Ben

    Stlah

  3. #3
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by hishiryo View Post
    Hello kakedashi, i hope i can help you so far:

    To the Shobogenzo: the central teachings of master dogen and the foundament of soto school.. I like the nishijima/cross-translation, but work with another nishijima-based translation in german language.

    the Shobogenzo-zuimonki is a collection of informal dharma talks, very interesting stuff

    9 bows: afaik a way to express deepest respect

    Gassho,
    Ben

    Stlah
    Yuppers, I agree. =)

    Gassho, Deep bows, Nine bows ... all mean the same if done so from the heart, dropping the ego, and for the benefit of all sentient beings.
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Kakedashi View Post
    Some people here close their posts with nine bows and I wonder what that means. Secondly, is there a difference between Shobogenzo and Shobogenzo Zuimonki? You see, I looked up Shobogenzo and I found a free copy of Shobogenzo Zuimonki at the website of the official Soto Zen Buddhism website, but I also came across the four books of Nishijima Roshi's Shobogenzo, and the good thing is that they are available where I live. Would you recommend any specific translation of Shobogenzo?

    Gassho,
    Jack
    Sattoday/lah
    Hi Jack,

    Let me drop in some small things to what was said above.

    Nine Bows are a most formal greeting in Chinese and Japanese Buddhism for very formal times, such as when meeting a teacher that one highly respects, or when wishing to express special gratitude to such a teacher. We have the standing Gassho (which also has various degrees of formality, depending on how deeply one bows, and how rigidly the elbows are kept up at a proper 90 degree angle), and Three Prostrations (usually said to represent "Buddha, Dharma, Sangha"). Beyond that, Buddhists like multiples, so 9 is 3 x 3. I guess that it can go up to the "magic number" of 108, which is a multiple of 9 too, by the way. Many Korean Zen folks do a daily set of 108 bows.

    If you would like to really blow your mind, here is a list of some of the many meanings of 108, not only in Buddhism, but throughout Indian religions:

    http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia...the_Number_108

    A beautiful comment by Suzuki Roshi here on 9 bows (p 201)

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...ows%22&f=false

    By the way, yes, this is all Chinese and Japanese formal culture, from ancient times, while in the west and modern times we have become more "handshake" people. So, if you wish, I give you permission to shake hands with Buddha. It is okay. However, please read Suzuki's comment and you might see a benefit to bowing. It is a lovely practice of humility. Do you know that, as you go down to the ground in gratitude to the universe, the universe and earth might be simultaneously seen as raiding you up? Here is a talk and lesson on bowing for our annual Rohatsu retreat at Treeleaf:

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post233404

    However, I do not compel anyone to bow so, and leave it to each person's heart. Sometimes it is good to do what someone resists, however.

    As to your other questions:

    I am now, this year, going through my 4th cycle of reading everything written by Master Dogen back to back. I am very much enjoying the new full translation of Shobogenzo by Tanahashi Sensei (expensive, but the most popular portions have been available for years in his collections "Moon In a Dew Drop" and "Enlightenment Unfolds." I recommend those to start, and they can be easily found for purchase) Online as a PDF, my teacher Nishijima (with my Dharma Bro. Chodo Cross) are available fully online to download:

    http://www.bdk.or.jp/bdk/digital/

    and as PDF

    http://www.bdk.or.jp/english/english..._download.html

    I have been told by some Dogen scholars that the Nishijima-Cross is perhaps the most precise and faithful to Dogen's words of all the full translations, but the Tanahashi version is perhaps the most readable and best at capturing the poetry of the language so important to Dogen (although Tanahashi must sometimes paraphrase a bit in order to do so). Stay away from the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives/Shasta Abbey version by Rev. Hubert Nearman available as a PDF online (to make a long story short, he went for a King James-ish "Thou" and "Thine" kind of feeling in keeping with the Christian inspiration of the Order, and often really really deviates from what the original says when I have looked closely at it). Dharma Bro. Brad Warner has a couple of popular books where he tries to modernize Shobogenzo language, but I don't think it is seriously faithful to Dogen although lovely and fun in spirit (he does things like change Dogen's references to "rice and tea" to "chips and pepsi.") Brad's books are most fun, I found, for folks who are already familiar with the originals. The Soto Zen Text Project is a wonderful group of translations (with extremely helpful scholarly footnotes on Dogen's quoted sources) that were pulled down from online recently as the scholars behind it are getting their final publication ready.

    The Zuimonki is a short collection of Dogen's talks. It is available for free from Soto-shu with some other things. I recently reread it too. Here is my advice on that to help you understand Dogen: When he gave some of those talks, he had just gathered a bunch of monks in his Sangha from another Zen group that was outlawed and it seems those monks might have had low morale and were not sure that they wanted to be with Dogen. Also, Dogen was kind of an outcast in Kyoto at the time, which was dominated by older sects of Buddhism, so was struggling for money to support the temple. For that reason, a LOT of the talks in Zuimonki (and the Shobogenzo too) are Dogen giving locker room pep talks and chewings out like a football coach about how monks don't need money or popular recognition, and why the monks needs to buckle down and get serious. He could be a hard ass when he wanted to be. He also had a soft face when needed.

    https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng...nki/index.html

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-09-2019 at 12:28 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  5. #5
    Thank you all for your helpful and insightful comments, they help me develop and deepen my practice and I really appreciate this . Thank you Jundo for directing me to the available resources, recommendations, and for providing the cultural and historical significance/context. Now I got more reading material to add to my favorite reading list of all time . Yesterday I received and started reading Opening the Hand of Thought: the part about conceptions of time is mind-blowing.

    Gassho,
    Jack
    SatToday/lah

  6. #6
    We also have a couple of threads on how to read Dogen's jazzy, free rapping style, that may help (pending my book on Dogen being published by Wisdom Publications in Summer 2020 plug plug ) ...

    SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...A-Love-Supreme

    How to Read Dogen
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-to-Read-Dogen

    Gassho J

    stlah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  7. #7
    Sumimasen!

    I have been trying to find Gakudo Yojinshu/Guidelines for studying the way, is it in the Shobogenzo?

    3³ bows,
    Chishou


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

  8. #8
    Hello Chishou,
    No, the gakudo yojin shu is not part of the shobogenzo.
    i have found a version available online here:
    https://terebess.hu/zen/dogen/GakuDoYoJinShu.pdf

    Gassho,
    Ben


    Stlah

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by hishiryo View Post
    Hello Chishou,
    No, the gakudo yojin shu is not part of the shobogenzo.
    i have found a version available online here:
    https://terebess.hu/zen/dogen/GakuDoYoJinShu.pdf

    Gassho,
    Ben


    Stlah
    Thank you for this Ben.
    Gassho
    Meitou
    Satwithyoualltoday lah
    命 Mei - life
    島 Tou - island

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by hishiryo View Post
    Hello Chishou,
    No, the gakudo yojin shu is not part of the shobogenzo.
    i have found a version available online here:
    https://terebess.hu/zen/dogen/GakuDoYoJinShu.pdf

    Gassho,
    Ben


    Stlah
    Yes thank you!

    Gassho
    Jakuden
    SatToday


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    I think this is the same version from 'Moon in a Dewdrop' available on The Zen Site:

    http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachin...r_Studying.htm

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    I think this is the same version from 'Moon in a Dewdrop' available on The Zen Site:

    http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachin...r_Studying.htm

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    Thanks Kokuu. It is interesting to see a different translation.

    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinshi View Post
    Thanks Kokuu. It is interesting to see a different translation.

    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    I looked at these two versions of Gakudo Yojin shu today, and it was interesting.

    I would say that the version by Tanahashi, from Moon is a Dewdrop, is the most readable, and conveys a bit of Dogen's sense of the poetry in language. The Nishiijima-Cross version (I think everyone knows that Nishijima Roshi is my Teacher) is more literal in tracking the grammar. However, it makes it a bit clunkier to read, and also Nishijima Roshi had some phrases he liked to use that are a bit personal to him (e.g., "will to the Truth" while Tanahashi says "the thought of enlightenment.") On the other hand, Tanahashi is sometimes paraphrases a bit to keep it smooth, and papers over some ambiguities in the original, so is not quite as literal as Nishijima. This is true too for the respective Nishijima-Cross and Tanahashi versions of Shobogenzo.

    Overall, I would recommend the Tanahashi version for ease of reading, although it is always good to read 2 or 3 versions side-by-side to triangulate what the original might actually have said. HOWEVER, the Tanahashi version posted is only the first half, and the second half (6 thru 10) seems to be missing!

    So, here is a better link to the Tanahashi version that is complete, complements of Village Zendo ...

    https://villagezendo.org/wp-content/...guidelines.pdf

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-14-2019 at 10:42 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    Thank you Jundo.



    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  15. #15
    Mp
    Guest
    Thanks Jundo ... Dharma triangulation is always good thing. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I looked at these two versions of Gakudo Yojin shu today, and it was interesting.

    I would say that the version by Tanahashi, from Moon is a Dewdrop, is the most readable, and conveys a bit of Dogen's sense of the poetry in language. The Nishiijima-Cross version (I think everyone knows that Nishijima Roshi is my Teacher) is more literal in tracking the grammar. However, it makes it a bit clunkier to read, and also Nishijima Roshi had some phrases he liked to use that are a bit personal to him (e.g., "will to the Truth" while Tanahashi says "the thought of enlightenment.") On the other hand, Tanahashi is sometimes paraphrases a bit to keep it smooth, and papers over some ambiguities in the original, so is not quite as literal as Nishijima. This is true too for the respective Nishijima-Cross and Tanahashi versions of Shobogenzo.

    Overall, I would recommend the Tanahashi version for ease of reading, although it is always good to read 2 or 3 versions side-by-side to triangulate what the original might actually have said. HOWEVER, the Tanahashi version posted is only the first half, and the second half (6 thru 10) seems to be missing!

    So, here is a better link to the Tanahashi version that is complete, complements of Village Zendo ...

    https://villagezendo.org/wp-content/...guidelines.pdf

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Hi Guys,

    I went back to re-read Gakudo Yojinshu, as several folks had expressed an interest. I am re-reading all of Dogen's writings these days, so it fits right in. A few comments that may help with it:

    - I do endorse the Tanahashi version as the most readable, with a sense of Dogen's style of poetic expression.

    - In understanding the early sub-sections especially, I think it very important to keep in mind that Dogen's emphasis on arousing "the thought of enlightenment" means very clearly (Dogen makes says this many different ways throughout the essay) that the search is the arrival in Dogen's vision of ongoing "practice-enlightenment." Expressions like Nishijima's "Will to the Truth" sound like an effort to get to a goal, but it is actually more that the effort in practice is also the goal. When you understand that point, a lot of the essay falls into place and makes sense. It is a little hard to convey what Dogen means, but imagine a walk or hike up a mountain, diligently forward and forward, in which each step by step is itself its own total arrival and the whole mountain. It is not just the destination, but the whole trip is the destination. Thus he says things such as that practice is enlightenment even before one might understand how or feel the effects.

    - He emphasizes in many places throughout the essay that one should not practice with a gaining idea, and just practice for the sake of practice. However, one had best be diligent about it, not lazy. This is pushing ahead up the mountain, not being lazy or giving up, but there is really no place to get to because every step of the hike is the mountain realized in the walking.

    - Dogen had very little money to fund his struggling temple in those days, and was certainly trying to gather some students (this is a very early writing when Dogen first became an independent teacher). This is why he is so intense in emphasizing finding a good teacher, and criticized a lot of the other schools of Buddhism in Japan in those days as too academic or politically/socially power hungry (they were).

    - I noticed several passages very open to lay practice and women's enlightenment (very open minded for the 13th century). He also says several places that one must bust their butt for this practice but, later, makes it clear that he does not mean physical austerities or just punishing yourself. So, what he seems to be saying is that one should practice diligently and sincerely, but with a mind that makes the hard into something easy, and the diligence into a peaceful heart. In other words, the struggle is to stick with it, but in a way that one's body and mind are at ease, and the struggle is not a struggle.

    I hope these comments help with understanding some of this piece. Let me know if anyone has other more specific questions.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-19-2019 at 11:03 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17
    Thank you Jundo, that is really helpful.

    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Guys,

    I went back to re-read Gakudo Yojinshu, as several folks had expressed an interest. I am re-reading all of Dogen's writings these days, so it fits right in. A few comments that may help with it:

    - I do endorse the Tanahashi version as the most readable, with a sense of Dogen's style of poetic expression.

    - In understanding the early sub-sections especially, I think it very important to keep in mind that Dogen's emphasis on arousing "the thought of enlightenment" means very clearly (Dogen makes says this many different ways throughout the essay) that the search is the arrival in Dogen's vision of ongoing "practice-enlightenment." Expressions like Nishijima's "Will to the Truth" sound like an effort to get to a goal, but it is actually more that the effort in practice is also the goal. When you understand that point, a lot of the essay falls into place and makes sense. It is a little hard to convey what Dogen means, but imagine a walk or hike up a mountain, diligently forward and forward, in which each step by step is itself its own total arrival and the whole mountain. It is not just the destination, but the whole trip is the destination. Thus he says things such as that practice is enlightenment even before one might understand how or feel the effects.

    - He emphasizes in many places throughout the essay that one should not practice with a gaining idea, and just practice for the sake of practice. However, one had best be diligent about it, not lazy. This is pushing ahead up the mountain, not being lazy or giving up, but there is really no place to get to because every step of the hike is the mountain realized in the walking.

    - Dogen had very little money to fund his struggling temple in those days, and was certainly trying to gather some students (this is a very early writing when Dogen first became an independent teacher). This is why he is so intense in emphasizing finding a good teacher, and criticized a lot of the other schools of Buddhism in Japan in those days as too academic or politically/socially power hungry (they were).

    - I noticed several passages very open to lay practice and women's enlightenment (very open minded for the 13th century). He also says several places that one must bust their butt for this practice but, later, makes it clear that he does not mean physical austerities or just punishing yourself. So, what he seems to be saying is that one should practice diligently and sincerely, but with a mind that makes the hard into something easy, and the diligence into a peaceful heart. In other words, the struggle is to stick with it, but in a way that one's body and mind are at ease, and the struggle is not a struggle.

    I hope these comments help with understanding some of this piece. Let me know if anyone has other more specific questions.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Thank you Jundo. This reading is very grounding, and it's nice to have the context of an earnest Dogen doing his best to help students who need him find the Way. We may not practice with a goal, but we can still practice with passion, no?

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH

  19. #19
    I feel the urge to recommend Brad Warner's paraphrasings of Shobogenzo as a reading companion: "Don't Be a Jerk" and "It Came From Beyond Zen". The paraphrasing is intentionally very loose (The Mountain And Waters Sutra is rephrased the "Beer and Doritos Sutra"), but he also provides what are effectively very extensive footnotes and context which help with reading the source material. He also makes statements comparing the translations frequently, and sometimes picks a particular translation for a particular chapter (fascicle) as his favourite and explains why (he usually goes with Nishijima / Cross).

    He even wrote an entire chapter about it ("You Can't Say 'I Miss You' In Japanese"), and now that I'm re-reading it, I find this passage very pertinent:
    In fact, most Japanese people find Dōgen’s prose almost as confounding as we do. Pretty much the only significant difference is they don’t have to decode the Chinese and Japanese characters it’s written in. As Nishijima Roshi said, what first fascinated him about Shōbōgenzō was that it was a book that was written in his own language but that he could not understand at all. Most Japanese people interested in Shōbōgenzō turn to the various modern Japanese translations now available and rarely attempt to read the original.
    Also, when it comes to translations, remember...
    “The original is unfaithful to the translation.”
    ― Jorge Luis Borges
    Gassho,
    Kenny
    Sat Today

  20. #20
    To clarify something about the versions of Shobogenzo; Since the Tanahashi version seems to be the consensus preferred version, is it only available in the hardcover and the on-line version? I don't see a less expensive paperback version out there. Is the Tanashashi translation; "Treasure of the True Dharma Eye, Zen Master Dogen's Shobo Genzo" at $67. the complete works? Once obtained is the full Shobogenzo contained therein? Another volume is not needed to complete the works, correct?

    Is "Moon in a Dewdrop" more of a highlights/greatest hits of Shobogenzo and not the whole thing? Thanks.

    Gassho
    ST/LAH
    James

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    To clarify something about the versions of Shobogenzo; Since the Tanahashi version seems to be the consensus preferred version, is it only available in the hardcover and the on-line version? I don't see a less expensive paperback version out there. Is the Tanashashi translation; "Treasure of the True Dharma Eye, Zen Master Dogen's Shobo Genzo" at $67. the complete works? Once obtained is the full Shobogenzo contained therein? Another volume is not needed to complete the works, correct?

    Is "Moon in a Dewdrop" more of a highlights/greatest hits of Shobogenzo and not the whole thing? Thanks.

    Gassho
    ST/LAH
    James
    Hi James,

    I'll let others provide a definative answer but the edition of Treasure of the True Dharma Eye, Zen Master Dogen's ShoboGenzo at Amazon has the same number of chapters as the other editions. So it certainly looks complete. There is a slipcase version that is two volumes - but it is the same total content. The slipcase version is $200.00 - which makes the $67.00 version look like a good deal.

    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    Last edited by Shinshi; 03-25-2019 at 08:12 PM.
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  22. #22
    Shinshi,

    Thanks for the response. Yes, I like $67. better than $200.

    Gassho,
    ST/Lah
    James

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by James View Post
    To clarify something about the versions of Shobogenzo; Since the Tanahashi version seems to be the consensus preferred version, is it only available in the hardcover and the on-line version? I don't see a less expensive paperback version out there. Is the Tanashashi translation; "Treasure of the True Dharma Eye, Zen Master Dogen's Shobo Genzo" at $67. the complete works? Once obtained is the full Shobogenzo contained therein? Another volume is not needed to complete the works, correct?

    Is "Moon in a Dewdrop" more of a highlights/greatest hits of Shobogenzo and not the whole thing? Thanks.

    Gassho
    ST/LAH
    James
    Hi James,

    I just want to add that, for folks new to Dogen, and maybe all but the most serious Dogen readers, I do recommend Tanahashi's "Best of" collections. There are three, and they have been out for many years:

    Moon in a Dewdrop
    https://www.amazon.com/Moon-Dewdrop-.../dp/086547186X

    Enlightenment Unfolds
    https://www.amazon.com/Enlightenment...uaki+Tanahashi

    Beyond Thinking
    https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Thinki...s&sr=1-1-fkmr0

    The complete ""Treasury of the True Dharma Eye" is wonderful, and it is lovely to support Tanahashi Sensei's lifetime of effort, but I actually recommend the "Best Of" books because they highlight what are considered Dogen's signature and most representative works.

    Tanahashi's collection called "The Essential Dogen" is too short and abbreviated (just random quotes), so I do not recommend that either.

    If you want a complete Shobogenzo, the Nishijima-Cross is available online for download, for free too (PDF, in 4 Vol.) here.

    http://www.bdk.or.jp/english/english..._download.html

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 03-26-2019 at 09:32 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  24. #24
    Thank you, Jundo.

    Gassho
    S2D/Lah
    James

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •