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Thread: Where do your thoughts go during Zazen

  1. #1

    Where do your thoughts go during Zazen

    I love the analogy of "driving" shikantaza posited in current thread but, This morning, another aspect of zazen arose during our after-sitting discussion. Prior to sitting we had a brief review of how the transience of thoughts was a good motive to alleviate the fear of letting go (opening the hand of thought) during Zazen. When the bell rings indicating the end of sitting, we pass around a "talking stick" when members share any insights or highlights of their particular experience that session.
    Today, a lady who has been sitting Zazen for over thirty years (starting under the tutelage of a U of W Professor who had been a student of Shinryu Shizuki Roshi himself at the San Francisco Zen Center) asked how others drop thoughts, since most of her's are in pictures and take considerable time to dissipate.
    So, we asked around the circle as to the form of members thoughts that arise and the manner in which they dispurse. I have to admit I was surprised to see the expressions on faces as people explained how thoughts manifested as words, both seen or heard, pictures/ sketches, faces, voices, colors, tunes, sounds, songs (one young fellow told us how his thoughts came in the form of TV commercials). And, they were surprised when I shared that I had experienced most if not all, of these forms at one time or another.
    Needless to say, many went home afterward with a new perspective on the thinking processes of our minds.

    gassho, Shokai
    stlah
    Last edited by Shokai; 02-26-2019 at 01:09 AM.
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  2. #2
    Treeleaf Unsui Nengei's Avatar
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    I have often found myself thinking (!) about what constitutes thoughts that arise and pass, in the form of is that a thought, or not? The discussion you describe your group having is quite interesting, Shokai-san. I would say that I have experienced images, feelings, memories, imagined occurrences from the past and future, music, and conversations. I have only recently begun sitting facing a wall (I learned to sit facing out into the room and did that for 15 years). The wall I am facing is white with a texture, and as I sit my eyes begin to play tricks with swirls of pale colors: white and a couple of shades of gray, white and yellow white and light blue, earlier today it was white and pinkish. This isn't "seeing things" per se, just a product of my fixed, non-focus. A blink clears them up. It had not occurred to me that these colors were a thought, but of course I notice them and therefore there is a though there. I'm thinking of covering the wall with wainscoting, or at least painting it a different color.

    Where was I going with this... oh, yes. Now that I think about it, and have some idea of things experienced by others, I wonder if maybe I have been hoping for thoughts that come up and identify themselves. "Sir, I am a thought, and I want you to come with me." I don't want to give my thoughts too much thought, because then I will definitely be having thoughts.

    I have also been appreciating the driving analogy that Jundoshi described. It makes sense to me and has allowed me to be more in-touch with coming and going of thoughts. Thank you for this post.

    Gassho,
    然芸 Nengei
    Sat today. LAH.
    You deserve to be happy.
    You deserve to be loved.

  3. #3
    Interesting topic. For me I guess I’d characterize my thoughts during Zazen into three categories

    1. Narratives - basically my mind spinning a story about a person or event etc. This story could be about the past, present or future.
    2. Meta thoughts - basically thinking about thinking.
    3. Music - I have a pretty much continuous sound track going on in my head. In the absence of any other thoughts I almost always have that.


    Any thoughts I have during Zazen generally disperse when I catch myself being caught up in thought and bring myself back to some element of my pose. Generally I find that either my mudra has flattened or I’ve started to slouch a bit in my posture. Sometimes I don’t catch myself at all and it is some external sound that brings me back to the moment.

    How long I stay in the moment is very dependent on the day, how tired I am etc


    Tairin
    Sat today and lah
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  4. #4
    I think I read about that somewhere, Shokai, that some people do not think verbally, and I was surprised! My thoughts are definitely usually words, blah blah blah. But I do see images in the wall ( I remember thinking there must have been over 100 images in the wood grain of my wall section at ZMM over the course of a Sesshin ) but those seemed to float by without becoming attached.
    Anyway, stuff like this used to drive me a little crazy when I began sitting, but it’s been awhile, now I consider sitting itself the only action—and as was mentioned, if the mudra is right and there is no slouch than the mind is probably following
    Gassho
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH


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  5. #5
    Mine go to the same place that they came from.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  6. #6
    Treeleaf Unsui Nengei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakuden View Post
    But I do see images in the wall ( I remember thinking there must have been over 100 images in the wood grain of my wall section at ZMM over the course of a Sesshin )
    Heh! Those wooden floors in the Zendo have thousands of faces in them. I never saw the same one twice. They taught me to see the space, not the form.

    Gassho,
    然芸 Nengei
    Sat today. LAH.
    You deserve to be happy.
    You deserve to be loved.

  7. #7
    I can identify with you, Jakuden. My thoughts are almost always words. And more than that, usually about explaining some abstract concepts (I teach Philosophy, so that’s probably why). I have to make an effort to remember images, so when they appear in my zazen, I know I’m becoming sleepy.
    By the way, I also see circles of different colors in the wall sometimes. I find them funny but don’t usually pay them much attention.
    Thanks for this thread.
    Gassho,
    Mateus

    Sat today/LAH

  8. #8
    My thoughts are pretty much a repetition of words from whatever book I've been reading currently and for me also, it is usually a sound that brings me back

    Thank you for this thread

    Anant
    SaT

  9. #9
    Thanks for the very interesting thread!

    My thoughts are usually very mundane, often just revolving around the various things that need to be done day to day. Sometimes they are more emotionally charged if I am going through something stressful. Once in a while they may be thought of a reading, or perhaps something I listened to.

    Overall they are usually very boring haha. I just sit and let them float on by like a cloud.

    Gassho,

    Junkyo
    SAT

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  10. #10
    Mp
    Guest
    My 86,000 thoughts are just the recycling of the same 84,000 thoughts. They originate in the same place they fall away ... =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

  11. #11
    When I sit, my mind often remembers the window latch that I was facing for an hour at SFZC. I don't usually sit for that long of a period, and I was very tired that day. When I jerked upward from a sleep attack, the latch was always there! For some reason, that stuck with me, although I know I probably shouldn't have been focusing so much on that latch...

    Gassho, sat today, lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  12. #12
    I tend to think of it as when I sit on the cushion I'm immediately taken a back seat from consciously engaging with my thoughts. It's like walking into a mental cinema with shikantaza being a nice comfy seat and a bucket of popcorn as I sit back and watch and try not to engage with the show. But all too often I find myself shouting at the screen so have to constantly check myself and settle back in my seat again.

    The thoughts that arise seem totally random but there does seem to be a point where my (no) mind gets frustrated that I'm not playing along so throws things it knows I'm likely to engage with at me like to do lists and jobs I need to complete.

    Gassho,

    Neil

    SatToday

  13. #13
    Some words from the great Chinese Chan master Empty Cloud (Xuyun)

    “A traveler who stops at an inn may stay overnight or get something to eat. When he is finished or rested, he packs and continues his journey, for he does not have time to stay longer. If he were the host, he would have no place to go. Thus, I reason, he who does not stay is called a guest because not staying is the essence of being a guest. He who stays is called a host. Again, on a clear day, when the sun rises and the sunlight enters a dark room through an opening, one can see dust floating in empty space. The dust is moving but the space is still. That which is clear and still is called space and that which is moving is called dust because moving is the essence of being dust.” Guest and dust refer to deluded thoughts, whereas host and space refer to self-nature. That the permanent host does not follow the guest in his comings and goings illustrates that permanent self-nature does not follow the sudden arising and perishing of deluded thoughts.

    Gassho

    Sat Today

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Byrne View Post
    Some words from the great Chinese Chan master Empty Cloud (Xuyun)

    “A traveler who stops at an inn may stay overnight or get something to eat. When he is finished or rested, he packs and continues his journey, for he does not have time to stay longer. If he were the host, he would have no place to go. Thus, I reason, he who does not stay is called a guest because not staying is the essence of being a guest. He who stays is called a host. Again, on a clear day, when the sun rises and the sunlight enters a dark room through an opening, one can see dust floating in empty space. The dust is moving but the space is still. That which is clear and still is called space and that which is moving is called dust because moving is the essence of being dust.” Guest and dust refer to deluded thoughts, whereas host and space refer to self-nature. That the permanent host does not follow the guest in his comings and goings illustrates that permanent self-nature does not follow the sudden arising and perishing of deluded thoughts.

    Gassho

    Sat Today
    The one comment I would add to Master Xuyun comment is that Master Dogen, and many other Zen masters, were not really "anti-guest" or looking for a sterile clean room stripped of all dust. How to explain?

    The "host" needs the guests to be a "host" and, what is more, bring the inn to life. Otherwise, the inn is just an empty space (not "Empty" in a vibrant Buddhist sense, but just empty as in "barren"), bankrupt and lifeless. Of course, with only hosts or only guests, there is a problem too.

    A room piled high with too much dust is a filthy, corrupt and unhealthy place. On the other hand, a sterile space and blank air without some dust has no form, is also colorless and lifeless. Empty dark space without dusty planets is lifeless too.

    Host and guest must dance together, become one, and the light must shine on a little dust in the air to bring atmosphere. Something like that. Emptiness is not merely empty, but is that vibrant dance of dust as space and guest as host.

    Don't know only guests, or only hosts, but let them swirl in their dance where host is sometimes guest and guest just host. Thus the inn comes to life.

    Don't only know dust, or only dark and empty space, but know their dance as well.

    Something like that.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #15
    I guess this speaks to the point that in sitting zazen we are not looking to eliminate thoughts but to witness while not engaging them?

    Gassho,

    Neil

    SatToday

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by EnlistedHipster View Post
    I guess this speaks to the point that in sitting zazen we are not looking to eliminate thoughts but to witness while not engaging them?

    Gassho,

    Neil

    SatToday
    Yes, not stir up the dust nor let it pile up. Just find the space and light that shines through. Dust drifts in, dust drifts out the window of the mind. The clear air and space is just as present too. Something like that.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17
    My thoughts are most often music-based - reworking piano fingerings, thinking of how to phrase something differently, a different voicing, etc. I think my mind knows these things are important to me and so uses them to as an attempt to engage me in them.

    I would imagine they go to the same place as letters do when you type on your keyboard but you cursor isn’t at a place to type and they don’t appear anywhere. Where do those letters go, running off into nothingness? Transient. And of little consequence, if any at all.

    Shinshou (Dan)
    Sat today


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  18. #18
    Where do your thoughts go during zazen?

    Sounds like a koan.


    Sat/lah




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  19. #19
    I'm starting the Koan collection for the 93 generation of our lineage

    gassho, Shokai
    stlah
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  20. #20
    Great. Thanks



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  21. #21
    I'm starting the Koan collection for the 93 generation of our lineage
    Thank you, Shokai

    My thoughts are usually chaotic words and phrases popping up in mind. Sometimes they transform into
    ruminations and dialogues where I may start planning things, try to prove something to someone or even defend myself.
    Once I catch myself in doing this I gently let the stuff go and come back to my posture and breath.
    In earlier days I used the Hua-tou (from the Chan tradition) to return and concentrate on the now
    but I dropped this tenchique later.

    Where do my thoughts come from and where do they go? -- I don't know

    Gassho
    Washin
    ST
    Last edited by Washin; 03-07-2019 at 06:28 AM.
    Kaidō (皆道) Every Way
    Washin (和信) Harmony Trust
    ----
    I am a novice priest-in-training. Anything that I say must not be considered as teaching
    and should be taken with a 'grain of salt'.

  22. #22
    During Zazen my thoughts are mostly words, stuff from work, what food to cook etc.

    Sometimes i make an effort to be super attentive and catch every thought as soon as they become conscious,
    but after 10 mins it gets tiring.
    Also i can see that the effort and the noticing of thoughts are just another movement of mind similar to the thoughts themselves.

    Kind of confusing. lol


    sat today

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Alfaiate View Post
    During Zazen my thoughts are mostly words, stuff from work, what food to cook etc.

    Sometimes i make an effort to be super attentive and catch every thought as soon as they become conscious,
    but after 10 mins it gets tiring.
    Also i can see that the effort and the noticing of thoughts are just another movement of mind similar to the thoughts themselves.

    Kind of confusing. lol


    sat today
    Don't catch the thoughts, neither grab and hold on. Don't wallow in and play with thoughts of work and food, neither worry that they come and go.

    Middle Way.

    The result is not confusion, only clarity.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  24. #24
    "Open the Hand of Thought" is a concept I first stumbled upon here at Treeleaf - a great help for me, so once again I bow in gratitude to Treeleaf!

    It helps me to open the hand of thought when I (internally) smile to the thought. For example when I (typically) catch myself thinking about how a possible conversation at work might turn out, I do not berate myself for entertaining a thought. Instead I treat myself like I treat my cat, when she jumps from the floor up onto the table and right on my journal while I am writing in it: no use in getting angry about the agile feline, just giving her a short loving stroke while setting her back down and smiling. To have that loving acceptance of things not going as desired is much harder for me than I would wish for ... but my wandering thoughts while sitting give me lots of oppotunity to practice "loving acceptance".


    Gero (sat today and lah)

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gero View Post
    "Open the Hand of Thought" is a concept I first stumbled upon here at Treeleaf - a great help for me, so once again I bow in gratitude to Treeleaf!

    It helps me to open the hand of thought when I (internally) smile to the thought. For example when I (typically) catch myself thinking about how a possible conversation at work might turn out, I do not berate myself for entertaining a thought. Instead I treat myself like I treat my cat, when she jumps from the floor up onto the table and right on my journal while I am writing in it: no use in getting angry about the agile feline, just giving her a short loving stroke while setting her back down and smiling. To have that loving acceptance of things not going as desired is much harder for me than I would wish for ... but my wandering thoughts while sitting give me lots of oppotunity to practice "loving acceptance".


    Gero (sat today and lah)
    Now, if we can only learn to treat all the problems of life, big and small, like cats on tables ... ... ...

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  26. #26
    It would be nice, indeed, to have such a forthright thought. Mine tend to be sneaky: I'll be sailing along, open blue sky all around, and suddenly I'll "hear" a whisper, like a wisp of cloud in my blue sky. I've often heard that the surest way to get someone to listen to you is to speak quietly so that they have to make an effort to hear you. I've found it is true; those whispers are almost irresistible and I'm off chasing one before I've fully realized that it is a thought.

    Sara
    Sat today

  27. #27
    Hello everyone! I’m a newcomer here

    I tend to have verbal, narrative thoughts. The topics vary, but there’s one experience I’ve been having frequently lately: my vision will blur and I will the feel the need to refocus my eyes. Every time, I think to myself “your vision is blurring, refocus your eyes”. I’m trying to build a habit of simply doing it without the narrative element, but it’s very difficult to break that pattern of thinking.

    Gassho
    Rob

  28. #28
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by robdymondpittman View Post
    Hello everyone! I’m a newcomer here

    I tend to have verbal, narrative thoughts. The topics vary, but there’s one experience I’ve been having frequently lately: my vision will blur and I will the feel the need to refocus my eyes. Every time, I think to myself “your vision is blurring, refocus your eyes”. I’m trying to build a habit of simply doing it without the narrative element, but it’s very difficult to break that pattern of thinking.

    Gassho
    Rob
    Hey Rob,

    Awareness is the key to change, without it change cannot happen. So it sounds like you already know what you are doing ... so when you see that pattern arise, acknownledge it and then let it be.

    You cam do this by focusing on the breathe or say to yourself, "bring the kind home and letting it go" - and "home" is right here, right now in this very moment with whatever you are doing.

    Practice and time are your best friends ... =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

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