I think many of the forms and customs of Zen seem strange and off-putting (though for some they are alluring). ...
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There might be a parallel with Quakers - the UK version only meet to sit in silent meditation without guidance, liturgy, hymns etc. They also tend to be a fairly self disciplined bunch prone to commitment. That seems to have kept their numbers at about 20,000 (out of a population of 65 million) for a very long time.
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Another big issue of lack of sanghas attendance is many think they can buy a book and do it on their own. Also, the why isn't everything free generation does not support anything.
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Same reason relatively few people have black belts in a martial art despite the only real requirement at most schools being that you have to continue to pay and train for a number of years. Only a few people have what it takes to go for the top. Religion to many people is just a social thing. They want to meet up once week, gossip about people, have a play group for their children, and check a religion on their census.
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I think the bowing and chanting scare most visitors off. Seriously, ...
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I think one of the reasons that people don't stick with zen is that when it actually starts working its the opposite of what we had hopped to get out of it when we first stated.... We came into to practice to feel good but to realize that the lust for feeling good *is* the problem can be shocking. I think everyone's spiritual path is different and not everyone necessarily experiences this to the same degree but I think alot of people do and I think its at this juncture that some people just stop sitting. Its like the bad guy in the matrix who decides he would rather go back to matrix and forget he ever knew it wasnt real. We get into practice to make the self feel less pain but to find out that isn't what we really need can be disillusioning.
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Its just the way it is at this point in time and history.I practice and enjoy the practice,helping a few friends along the way and paying forward my teacher's kindness and guidance.That's good enough for me.
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I can say in Brazil is the same. I would also add that some people have this Hollywood zen view, thinking that they would find a Master Miagi kind of guy, who would walk with him in a Japanese garden saying some koan like bullshit and them wisdom all the way! Them they come and we say, sit, now drink tea, now wash your cup, see you next time! No Yoda, no puzzles, no garden!
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Because Zen involves facing things people don’t want to face. People come because they want to see reality or feel better. But depending on the person after a few hours or weeks or months or years something will come up they don’t want to deal with. Maybe it’s just zazen starts making them a bit scared or angry instead of making them feel better. Or it starts making them realise they are a jerk, or their partner is abusive, and they don’t want to know. Or the existential stuff gets a bit too intense. That’s on top of the knee pain! ... Most things that make us feel better in the West are escapism. Shopping. Cinema. Spas. Nightclub. Alcohol.
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If people want a benevolent god and a guaranteed happy ending, there are Buddhisms for them too.
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have experienced an attitude of elitism. The majority of attendees at one group were well educated psychologist and therapist, very few technically trained or labor class. There was a predominance of, white people and very few black, brown or for that matter, Asian. There is also a Cheshire cat manifesting grin, "I know something you don't know", which does very little to manifest an open inquisitive mind. ... And you begin to wonder, how many of these people have actually experienced what they speak of. And then you go silent, no need to engage, no need to justify, and occasionally you will run into someone who can meet their suffering with the grace of presence, and to manifest that space for others with compassion. And then you begin to relax about the arrogance, both your own and those around you. That then is Sangha. But it is not an easy arrival, so to speak.
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Self-identifying followers of ALL organized religions, including Christianity, have been steadily decreasing for decades in the West (Europe, the United States, Canada, etc.), but also self-identifying Zen Buddhists have been steadily declining in Japan during the exact same time, with the result that many Zen Buddhist monasteries and temples have been closing there as well. I think there’s in general a deep societal/cultural shift away from ALL kinds of formality, tradition, officiality, and organized institutions, not only religious ones. With the advance of science, technology has come to pervade nearly every aspect of our busy daily lives, vying for our precious attention, energy, and time. (Perhaps ironically I type this on my cell phone.) As the world seems to have shrunk and in many ways become more homogenous, maybe many people find themselves naturally drawn to the more secular by default. Of course Zen Buddhism can be radically non-traditional and radically secular, but often it’s not, which is how it probably often comes across to many very bright and intuitive people who might otherwise be more naturally drawn to it.
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I honestly believe that if you want to make zen popular, you have to churchify it. Can I get an “amen”?
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Although Zen is relatively simple & straightforward, it is also HIGHLY intellectual. It’s not coincidence that Zen in America spread through the college educated, Beatnik/ hippie crowd. Simply to be aware of Zen & what it is, requires a level of education that’s not common. To then engage in & practice Zen requires a level of philosophical introspection that is very rare. A therapist once [told] me that only about 5% of the population actually have any internal dialogue, or thought about themselves, life, meaning, or actions. Pretty much 95% of people are automatons just flowing along with whatever society tells them.
I never said Zen Practice is intellectual- only that FINDING it requires you be introspective & somewhat intellectual. I’ve never met a Western Zen Student who is not a reader, or deep thinker... & most are college educated.
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People often join a religious group for the communal fellowship aspect. I think this is a primary motivator for most people. In a culture that subverts community, churches offer a strong sense of connection with other people. Very few Zen groups offer this because their focus is almost exclusively on meditation which isn't very conducive to communal interaction.
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I think zen practice is not always about that 'feel good' factor. In fact, I think zen practice makes a habit, a vital one, of taking people out of their comfort zones - mental, physical and even spiritual.
If you're looking for one thing to hail as truth - the closest zen will likely give you is "not always so" - ... 'what's the most important thing?' someone once asked Shunryu Suzuki - "the most important thing.. is to find out what is the most important thing" . ... In some religious practices, pastors and clerics are very keen to tell you exactly what to do and how to do it and what exactly is right and what exactly is wrong. And if you believe in this one thing, in this one way, you are right, and good and saved. It FEELS SO GOOD TO KNOW YOU'RE RIGHT - to KNOW you're among the righteous . We won't give you any such shallow reassurances in zen.
[Z]azen can be a high barrier for people. I'd say there's some truth to that. There's work to be done in zen, and nobody can do it for you. In some religious practices in the world - an Other Power will save you - In Buddhism, “other power” is called TARIKI” – and we see other power redemption particularly in the Pure Land school of Buddhism. The opposite of Tariki is Joriki – or ‘self power’ – this is applicable to zen. - nobody can let your thoughts pass for you- nobody can engage in 'just this' for YOU, other people are not you.
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Zen had a particular cultural moment that corresponded with Asian teachers arriving and meeting disaffected Westerners with a practice that seemed particularly astonishing in its depth and breadth. It seemed to them, something that went beyond restrictive or outdated elements in Western religion and society. Today, it seems to me, the Buddhist world, like the rest of the world, is far more globalized and diversified, such that anyone is faced with more variety, more choices. ...
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My opinion... people are interested in “ending suffering” and being happy. Sort of. What they really really want to know is how to get what they want. And there are many many resources to feed it. Hard to compete with that!
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The difference in generations is telling, when this old one was in Christian circles 15 +years ago (for a short interlude) if you put a call out for volunteers you got them, in Zen no one comes. To our sat 9 am Tai Chi class a young lady emailed that she would love to come if we moved the class to 11am-for her. sadly Buddhism and Zen seems to be attractive to those who have left the "moral demands" of Christianity and want something to rubber stamp their desires (innate narcissistic tendency?), since it takes no effort, one can then just stay home and practice as little or as much as one wants.
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Buddhism has always gone 'against the stream'. It's strong medicine for desperate people who realize they can't go on like this. Many are called, few are chosen.
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(say goodnight Dick)
Originally Posted by Kakedashi
I do think that people like to work toward concrete goals. I did not want to portray those following a mindfulness course as lazy people, it's just that a mindfulness course is a clear-cut course with a particular outcome. Zen doesn't offer an eight-week-solution to your problem. Once it becomes too vague or abstract people might feel put off because there is no clear result that can be visualized. This is not just something that applies to zazen but also to a martial art I have been practicing for years: Iaido. My Iaido sensei always says that you got to be a bit crazy to practice this martial art. There are no colored belts, you have to repeat the same kata(forms) for years, there's almost zero freestyling, and there is no real sense of progress. Martial arts like Karate-do have more clear-cut objectives which makes them more attractive to newcomers. This doesn't mean that I look down or perceive such martial arts as being lazy people's arts. I practiced Karate-do myself for about 10 years. I do wonder what the effects are of taking shikantaza from its proper context and start selling it as meditation.
. I'm guessing what we are discussing is something that applies to all forms of religion. Unless attending is deeply ingrained in your DNA, why would you work at something that doesn't and can't give you a guaranty? (Like a one way ticket to eternity) Until recently, folks in agriculture lived a simple life and meeitng up with neighbors on Sunday morning was a treat but, I'm not sure if even that holds anymore with all the alternatives dished up by streaming TV and the internet.
