Koan and Shikantaza

[Koki]

Jundo!

Brief question if I may?

I understand the use of Koans.
However, most of our practice is shikantaza.
Am I correct to think that these are two separate entities, and that they stand on their own merits?
That koan practice although may be a useful tool to some, has NOTHING to do with shikantaza?

I think that if our practice is sitting shikantaza, that koan practice would be useless?

Gassho
Koki



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[Shokai]

But the Koams still have meaning !!

gassho, Shokai
stlaH

[Koki]

Shokai

Yes, I agree that koans do have purpose and meaning, but if our practice of just sitting, shikantaza, is all encompassing....would koan practice be beneficial? Or is EVERYTHING dropped?

Gassho
Koki
Satoday


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[Jundo]

Good question!

I will say at the start that opinions will vary greatly on this depending on what teacher one asks and, of course, whether they are from a Rinzai (or mixed Soto-Rinzai) lineage which tends to be centered on "Koan Introspection Zazen" or from a more "purely" Shikantaza/Soto approach as here.

(That is one reason why, when picking up a "Zen book" by some teacher, it is helpful to know where the teacher is coming from on issues like this in order to understand why "Zen books" and teachers sometimes seem to be recommending very different things).

I will offer just my take on this:

First, one must be clear on what one means by "Koan practice."

Many Rinzai (and most of the mixed Soto-Rinzai lineages derived from Yasutani Roshi, such as the Sanbokyodan, Maezumi Roshi and his students, Aitken Roshi, Philip Kapleu of the "Three Pillars of Zen") emphasize Zazen centered, often intensively, on a phrase or word from a Koan until an intense "Great Doubt" builds within the sitter which eventually cracks open into an intense experience of "Kensho" in which the self/object division is penetrated. (Such mixed Soto-Rinzai lineages may also practice Shikantaza, but it sometimes seems to take a back seat to Koan Introspection Zazen and the drive for Kensho, and is sometimes not really "Shikantaza" in my opinion ... but that is another topic. Also, in Soto we value also "Kensho," meaning "to see the True Nature," and the softening and falling away of the self/other divide ... but not necessarily with such an intensive push, also a topic for another time). The Rinzai and mixed folks often have a Koan "curriculum" of sometimes hundreds of Koans that one must pass through on the road to enlightenment. They are said to work on different aspects of insight, and refine the experience of enlightenment. I have my doubts, as I discuss below. (Other Rinzai lines tend to stay perhaps with even one single Koan for one's whole life).

In any case, we cherish Koans in Soto too and Soto folks work with Koans, chew on Koans, penetrate Koans ... but not as an aspect of Shikantaza Zazen, on the cushion, in the way of Rinzai and mixed Soto-Rinzai practitioners. One cannot read Dogen's Shobogenzo and Eihei Koroku without acknowledging that he and his monks danced with Koans as a key part of his Teaching. We do too. However, one actually wants to get the message of the Koan. Koans do present Wisdom and Zen/Mahayana teachings in very poetic and creative fashion, often going beyond ordinary logic but consistent with the logic of the Mahayana (where a mountain is not a flower - yet it is, and there is no birth or death - yet each is so too, and Buddha and ignorant us are not the same - yet we are. The koans help us see beyond ordinary language and the "common sense" logic of daily experiencing the world in order to know such other Truths too.) The koans are not arbitrary, meaningless or illogical in a Mahayana sense.

One cannot read Dogen's Shobogenzo and Eihei Koroku without acknowledging that he and his monks danced and played with the "classic" Koans as a key part of his Teaching. We do too. We also realize the "Genjo Koan" which are the endless Koans of life continuously manifesting here there and everywhere ... in each gesture and moment of life.

Tomorrow, in our monthly Zazenkai, I will be speaking about a wild section of Shobogenzo called Gyobutsu Iigi, which can only be called a wild Koany ride itself, within which Dogen dances with some of the "classic" Zen Koans too. We also have dances with the "Book of Serenity/Equanimity" collection of Koans in our readings in the "Wordless Book Club" here at Treeleaf ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/sear...earchid=909525

Now, to cut to the chase:

Do I recommend that someone do more, perhaps actually be assigned a personal Koan to chew on, come into Dokusan with me (or better, a teacher actually trained in Koan work) to actually present one's understanding of a Koan? Here is a funny video on such a Dokusan meeting ...

No, I do not.

Again, I am not a Koan introspection teacher, so I am perhaps biased. However, I believe that such kind of Koan work is a great distraction often turning into psycho-babble and gobbledygook and hunting for revelations and such, especially in the hands of teachers who just make it up as they go along. In the hands of a gifted teacher, a Koan can come alive. But, in the setting of a Dokusan room with students presenting mysterious answers and yelling or jumping around ... and a teacher who thinks he or she can "read minds" ... it is ridiculous and is more likely to lead to blind alleys. It has plagued the Zen world for centuries. There is one fellow teaching Koans to groups online now, and listening to his talks I wonder if he just makes it up on the fly as he goes along. It is like "stream of consciousness" poetry, wherein once in awhile wisdom does appear (but only once one gets through all the mumbo jumbo).

Here is another video you might find interesting, of a student presenting MU to a Rinzai teacher in Sanzen (what the Rinzai folks call "Dokusan"), probably as part of the Koan .. "Does a Dog have Buddha Nature?".

We engage in "Dokusan" too in the Soto world, but it is usually more of a "so, how is your Practice going?" chat.

In any case, JUST SIT SHIKANTAZA, wash dishes, take care of life ... study Buddhist teachings, including (but far from limited to) the meaning of the Koans and the wisdom that they contain. That's it man. Don't get distracted.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Koki]

Thank you Jundo!

"And a time for every purpose under heaven"

Gassho
Koki
Satoday


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[Koki]

Was this also part of Seishins post?

Koki


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[Jundo]

Seishin's post on Ango? All things are connected.

By the way, I mentioned that "not all Zen (or Buddhist) books are the same," and the teachers seem to come from different places in their recommendations which can even be quite contradictory sometimes. It can be confusing to newer folks who just pick up a "Zen book" or something by the Dalai Lama, and wonder why they sometimes seem to be saying the same thing ... but often not the same. (I like to say "precisely the same at heart, yet often very different.")

The following readings are far from complete and perfect on this topic, but they will give a little window in understanding why ...

eight types of enlightenment
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-enlightenment

once born twice born zen (part not 1)
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...8part-not-1%29

once born twice born zen (part not 2)
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...8part-not-2%29

Gassho, J

STLah

[Koki]

Like the cherry blossom...."perfect"

Gassho
Koki
Satoday


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[Seibu]

Thank you Koki for asking this fascinating question and thank you Jundo for illuminating the path. I have been reading koans myself and the same question presented itself on several occasions. The more I familiarize myself with your teachings the more it all starts to make sense. For example when I watched your video for beginners facing the clear blue sky and the clouds I linked it to the koan Up in a Tree and the idea of "acting within the dilemma," when you said "the blue sky is always there." In such a way, koans function as a complement to Zen teachings to me. Just like when you tell me to go back to focus on breathing when being distracted it reminds me of "going back to Mu." I feel gratitude .

Gassho
Deep bows
Kakedashi


SatToday/lah

[Nengei]

In any case, we cherish Koans in Soto too and Soto folks work with Koans, chew on Koans, penetrate Koans ... but not as an aspect of Shikantaza Zazen, on the cushion, in the way of Rinzai and mixed Soto-Rinzai practitioners. One cannot read Dogen's Shobogenzo and Eihei Koroku without acknowledging that he and his monks danced with Koans as a key part of his Teaching. We do too. However, one actually wants to get the message of the Koan.
...

In any case, JUST SIT SHIKANTAZA, wash dishes, take care of life ... study Buddhist teachings, including (but far from limited to) the meaning of the Koans and the wisdom that they contain. That's it man. Don't get distracted.

Gassho,
然芸 Nengei
Sat today. LAH.
You deserve to be happy.
You deserve to be loved.

[Jundo]

Thank you Koki for asking this fascinating question and thank you Jundo for illuminating the path. I have been reading koans myself and the same question presented itself on several occasions. The more I familiarize myself with your teachings the more it all starts to make sense. For example when I watched your video for beginners facing the clear blue sky and the clouds I linked it to the koan Up in a Tree and the idea of "acting within the dilemma," when you said "the blue sky is always there." In such a way, koans function as a complement to Zen teachings to me. Just like when you tell me to go back to focus on breathing when being distracted it reminds me of "going back to Mu." I feel gratitude .

Take your time to learn about the "classic" Koans if you are interested in them.

Koans are not so mysterious when we understand a bit about basic Mahayana Buddhist perspectives on reality, account for the language differences over 1000 years, and understand something about their creation and the use of "wordplay" involved. This takes some time, so take it slowly.

As I said above, Koans are not "illogical statements" or "riddles". In fact, most have a certain "logic" to them ... although a "Buddhist logic" firmly grounded in Buddhist perspectives and teachings where, for example, A is not B, yet A is precisely B ... all while there is no A nor B because All is just thoroughly A which is all time and space! Now, an overly or merely intellectual understanding of such perspectives is not sufficient, for one must actually see and be these perspectives, come to live them. Thus, I would compare Koans to poems and songs which express these wonderful perspectives in musical language so they can be felt in the bones, music that can be danced to. Many also have the aspect of an expression which carries and lets us "see" these multiple perspectives at once ... like this famous drawing ... or those 3-D images in the newspaper that some folks can see and some not ...



Is she an old lady .. a young lady ... lines and ink on paper ... the whole universe? (If you cannot see the optical illusion in the picture, let me know and I will offer a clue).

Like poems, like music ... these teachings should resonate with us and help us see in new ways (one Koany way of saying this is "see with the ears, hear with the eyes!" )

One thing about Koans that make them seem more mysterious is the distance of time and culture, and the resulting gap in shared cultural references and language, Often Zen phrases seem "cryptic" or mysterious and profound simply because many old Zen stories were written in 1000 year old "slang", citing forgotten Chinese legends, stories and poetic references, and poorly translated over time! It is as if I were to create a Koan now using such 'Americanism' terms as "bling-bling", "shake your booty", "Thomas the Tank Engine" (Britishism) and "Casey at the bat" and expect folks 1000 years from now in Lithuania to "get the reference". They might take "Bling Bling" to be a mysterious Mantra thought to have great magical powers!

Now, somewhere along the line, some radicals [such as the Rinzai teachers Tahui and Hakuin] started to take the Koans and, sometimes forgetting the meaning behind them, asserted that if one merely takes a few words of the story ... and wraps oneself up in it ... even if one doesn't have a clue what the folks are "talking about" ... one can have a breakthrough to a Kensho experience or some insight. These days, students are assigned Koans to chew on so far removed from their original context that they might as well be future Lithuanians sitting Zazen while breathing in and out "Thomas the Tank Engine." I have no doubt that if the 31th Century Lithuanian does so for long enough, he will have some kind of breakthrough!

I consider that I "teach in Koans" all the time, almost daily returning to the "classic" koans, but that I try to do so in modern language too, and with some understanding of the Mahayana Buddhist teachings they seek to convey.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Seibu]

Thank you for sharing Jundo . I wholeheartedly agree, based on the little koan experience I have, that a decent understanding of Buddhism and historical contexts are necessary to make some sense of them. That's why I purchased the Robert Aitken version of The Gateless Barrier. Without his contextualization I would be completely lost...swimming in the pacific without any sense of direction. Not that the contextualization leads to complete understanding. I reread them (including Mumon's verses and the historical contextualization) many times and I feel that the koans are just there with me. Your comparison of koans with poems and songs is fascinating. You also made me laugh about the 31st century Lithuanian trying to figure out Americanisms.

Gassho
Kakedashi

SatToday/lah

[Junkyo]

I spent 6 months doing koan practice under Judy Roitman (Zen master Bon Hae) from the Korean rinzai tradition (Kwan Um school). It was an interesting practice. I did not even begin to scratch the surface of it.

I personally found it to be very challenging as I have a tendency to over think and intellectualize everything.

I definately found it a worthwhile experience, and perhaps will pick it up again someday.

I am quite content to now just sit zazen, though I still enjoy reading through the blue cliff record and the mumonkan from an academic view point.


Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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[Koki]

Junkyo...
I also did some koan studying under the Kwan Um School with Master Soeng Hyang.

The "Don't Know" answer always intrigued me because basically, it's true, once you wrap your head around it.

But I've fallen deeply for shikantaza.

Gassho
Koki
Satoday

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[Junkyo]

Junkyo...
I also did some koan studying under the Kwan Um School with Master Soeng Hyang.

The "Don't Know" answer always intrigued me because basically, it's true, once you wrap your head around it.

But I've fallen deeply for shikantaza.

Gassho
Koki
Satoday

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Hi Koki!

I feel much the same way. I think that even in sitting there is "Don't Know".

Gassho,

Junkyo
SAT

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[Tairin]

Great topic.

Initially I didn’t realize or appreciate the differences between Rinzai and Soto. I am not even sure I knew there was a Rinzai and Soto. Zen was Zen. I started out in a Sanbokyodan centre. They kept talking about Koans and Koan curriculum. Intuitively I felt I just wanted to sit. I felt having a Koan would kick in my desires to “solve” the Koan and show how smart I was. I was truly pleased to find the Soto path. It fit me. Now I still have a friend at the Sanbokyodan centre. He loves the Koan study and if it works for him that’s great.


Tairin
Sat today and lah