A question on thoughts...

[Sam042095]

Hey everyone,

I have a question that I don’t necessarily know how to phrase so I hope this makes sense. It has to due with thoughts during meditation. I am clear that we should treat thoughts as clouds in a blue sky. Clouds come and go, the important thing is not to grasp on to them. Not to attach to the thinking. But on the other end of the same spectrum just as we shouldn’t chase after our thoughts, we shouldn’t try to chase them away either. And this is where I’m confused. Im confused about where the line is between pushing away a thought and letting it go naturally. When I find that I’ve been thinking, I return to my breath or simply to just being but naturally the thought drops away. So what is the difference. It seems that no matter what, the thought is chased away because when you return to your meditation your thought abruptly stops and drops away.

Gassho
Sam
Sat Today

[Koki]

Hi Sam!
Please take my words with a grain of salt, because im sure there are folks here who can totally nail this.

IMO...i think you may be over thinking this. You seem to know the answer, but seem to not want to accept it..like you're looking for more.

Perhaps your answers are correct. Perhaps your doing the right things.

Kind of like making a statement about something, and ending the sentence with a period, but rambling on and on....like im doing here, lol!

I'd go back, and drop everything after, "I don't necessarily know..."

Relax, breathe, smile.

You got this.

Gassho
Koki
Satoday

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[Jishin]

Hi,

There is no thinking to attach to, to hang on or push away. There is no breath to return to. Just one big enchilada.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Hi Sam,

I believe that what you are describing that you are doing is right, so don't over analyze this. Just "return to the breath or simply just sitting, being present."

So, what is the difference? Maybe just forced effort, the difference between just breathing out and saying "now I must forcefully exhale," or just walking vs. "now I must move my left foot." Just do not grab the thought, let go, return to breath etc. as the most natural thing. If you think in normal walking "now I must move my foot" ... you are bound to become self-conscious and trip over your own steps!

If thoughts come, don't resent them or resist them, don't try to push them out the door like unwanted guests ... just ignore them and don't mess with em, don't play their games.

Does that help?

Gassho, J

STLah

[Mp]

I believe that what you are describing that you are doing is right, so don't over analyze this. Just "return to the breath or simply just sitting, being present."

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jishin]

The problem:

IMG_2699.jpg

The solution:

IMG_2700.jpg

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

IMG_2701.jpg



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Geika]

Thoughts don't really stop on their own, so there really isn't a natural dropping off. You can't really just sit and wait for them to just end-- that usually leads to daydreaming. If you're watching them, they just keep going. The returning to posture and breath is the only way I can think of to break that momentum and come back up into the present moment. I might be wrong, or explaining this poorly.

Sat today, lah

Edit: spent a lot of time trying to word this answer, just to post, refresh and discover that it has already been answered quite well.

[Jishin]

Thoughts are just like cells that pop up into awareness till they die a preprogrammed death not different from the process of apoptosis. Thoughts that do not die a natural death are pathological and cancerous. Leave them alone and they die a natural death. Attaining no attaining with nothing to attain is the trick. Just sitting is the best description I can find of this or just chopping wood and carrying water. Just this. Anything more is too much.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Tokan]

I don't do it these days, but once upon a time, if I was struggling with the passage, pattern, or persistency of thoughts I would simply say (on the out-breath) "not-two". That way I was treating the thoughts (and myself) gently. Thoughts are not the enemy, there is a time and a place for thought, but this was my way of reminding my mind that zazen was my "not-two" time, where I was free to perceive reality rather than intellectualising it. Sitting is learning, and sitting is learning to sit, always

Wonderful question, I wish you well in your practice, and I might go sit an extra session with "not-two"!

Gassho to all - Tokan

sattoday + LaH

[Jundo]

I don't do it these days, but once upon a time, if I was struggling with the passage, pattern, or persistency of thoughts I would simply say (on the out-breath) "not-two". That way I was treating the thoughts (and myself) gently. Thoughts are not the enemy, there is a time and a place for thought, but this was my way of reminding my mind that zazen was my "not-two" time, where I was free to perceive reality rather than intellectualising it. Sitting is learning, and sitting is learning to sit, always

Wonderful question, I wish you well in your practice, and I might go sit an extra session with "not-two"!

Gassho to all - Tokan

sattoday + LaH

It is a kind of Mantra, and a good one. One of the techniques that old Soto Zen Masters like Keizan Zenji sometimes recommended as a temporary measure, on particularly head noise days, is some use of a Mantra for a time.

However, when one can, return to the breath or open awareness.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Shi]

I have attempted a daily practice from before Ango to the present. I had expectations of myself and my Ango partner and even before as I had made a promise to be part of Jukai in some way. I did not participate in Jukai in any way thinking only of Ango practice. I've found I was living in expectations. Now with Ango dropping away, and me having less expectations of myself, I've been able to practice five out of seven days for the past two weeks. I cannot say thoughts are droping away fully. What I notice, or do not notice, is that time in sitting maybe comes closer to Shikantaza in that time seems of less of importance. In fact, I'm not attempting to control thinking, and I do find returning to just breathing brings a shortening of time. As I sit more and more, time seems shortened and less important. Now, 35 minutes seems so very short, and it seems like nothing as I am not looking forward to the end. I only sit, and time is less relavent. I started with less than 20 minutes per sitting, and for the last two days, I've sat for 35 minutes each day using an insight timer. Today, 35 minutes seemed like nothing. I plan to sit daily at 35 minutes, and it seems my way for now. "Tomorrow is another day!" Thank you Scarlet.
Tai Shi
sat today/lah
Gassho

[ChrisMa]

Excellent. 35 minutes is a great length of time to sit. All Zazen is equal but sometimes things open up and get quieter after sitting for a slightly longer duration.

In response to the original post. Zazen itself is the ultimate koan. There is nothing to be done, sitting itself is enlightenment. But here we are with all of our thoughts and crazy ideas. As it has been said above. These things are not two (but also we need to not grasp onto intellectual ideas of oneness). What it really points to, in my limited opinion, is that everything we need is right here. The gateless gate, form is emptiness, nirvana is samsara, and so on. Zazen is sitting with our busy, overactive human minds and at the same time knowing that enlightenment is right here, in this moment, this breath, this posture, this transient body. Not grasping onto moments of bliss or oneness, not shying away from moments of pain or boredom or frustration. Just being open to all of it, so with or without our habits and conditioning, there is only ever this moment experiencing itself.

Lots of things that seem like paradoxes. Sitting with these paradoxes, letting them be as they are, leaving the questions open, not seeking an intellectual answer. That's what Zazen is.

But, of course, I'm no expert. It's okay though, nobody can be an expert in Zazen.

Gassho,

Sat Today,

Chris

[Jundo]

Nice, Chris. If 35 minutes feels right for you, then sit so.

Such description of the luscious "paradox" of Zazen ... lovely.

Gassho, J

STLah

[ChrisMa]

One thing I'll add. This is just a conjecture - no way to prove it one way or another without practicing every kind of Buddhism for years and doing a big comparison.

Various other types of meditation seem more structured, with specific techniques or goals that are often reached in stages. Even more similar practices such as Mahamudra and Dzogchen have a whole series of preliminary practices, and vast amounts of literature on the different stages of awareness. So Zazen is unique in this regard. We take things exactly as they are, know deeply that nothing needs to be done, and sit with it wholeheartedly.

But, and this is pure speculation, although it seems true to me - every kind of meditation ends up being Zazen.

Whatever the tradition or technique, the practitioner reaches a point where there is nothing to attain, nothing to strive for, nothing to control or change, and there is only the calm, aware abiding in each moment. Self and other, goals, the desire to make things be a certain way, all fall away eventually.

The difference is that Zazen points to this truth from the start. In reality, there is nothing to attain, no separate self to gain something. No goal other than being right here fully and openly and naturally. We could say that it pushes people into the deep end. So that can seem a bit confusing for a while. But we soon learn to swim in these waters, swimming by not swimming, allowing the current to do the work, and we find that it was always our natural home.

Also, we're never on our own. There's a good community here and many good resources out there for pointers when we need them.

And thank you Jundo and others here who've provided me with some useful pointers at various times.

Gassho,

Sat Today/LAH,

Chris

[Jundo]

But, and this is pure speculation, although it seems true to me - every kind of meditation ends up being Zazen.

I wish that it were so ... and it may be so in some or many cases eventually ... but many forms of meditation do end up as an endless run for deep concentrations, highs, bliss states, wild visions, unusual mind states, messages from beyond, la la land ...

... so, no, not all are alike.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Shinshou]

I read a passage from "Opening the Hand of Thought" last night that seems appropriate to this question of allowing/chasing away thoughts. Uchiyama describes Zen Buddhism as the recognition and acceptance of both the absolute and relative truths of life. I think zazen is like this. On an absolute level, this mind is the Buddha mind, clouds and blue sky are no different, all is Buddha nature, so why "do" anything. But on a relative level, there is a way to "do" shikantaza that is different from other meditation, it has a specific technique. Accepting these both as a koan - a paradox - has solved many of these questions in my own practice.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

[Jundo]

I read a passage from "Opening the Hand of Thought" last night that seems appropriate to this question of allowing/chasing away thoughts. Uchiyama describes Zen Buddhism as the recognition and acceptance of both the absolute and relative truths of life. I think zazen is like this. On an absolute level, this mind is the Buddha mind, clouds and blue sky are no different, all is Buddha nature, so why "do" anything. But on a relative level, there is a way to "do" shikantaza that is different from other meditation, it has a specific technique. Accepting these both as a koan - a paradox - has solved many of these questions in my own practice.

Shinshou (Dan)
Sat Today

Yes, and basically that is how Zen folks see reality itself as put together far beyond just the sitting of Zazen itself. The absolute and the relative, emptiness and form, same yet not ...

Gassho, J

STLah

[ChrisMa]

Excellent points, thank you both. Sometimes I see Zazen as the microcosm of the macrocosm. Sitting with the great paradox of reality and embodying it in the posture and attitude, letting everything be just as it is.

But really that's just a mental perspective that occurs from time to time. There is no microcosm or macrocosm. There's only the reality. The attitude of Zazen does have a skillful way of pointing towards it, though.

Gassho,

Sat Today,

Chris

[Rich]

It takes a little trust and faith to let go of thinking and just be.

Stlah


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[Rich]

In a sutra Buddha said COMPREHEND THE IMMATERIAL. Thought is the inner material, When thoughts disperse and there’s just space that’s the immaterial

Stllah


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[Tairin]

It takes a little trust and faith to let go of thinking and just be.

Tairin
Sat today and lah