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Thread: Yet another Heart Sutra Translation

  1. #1

    Yet another Heart Sutra Translation

    The Heart Sutra / translation by Thich Nhat Hanh

    Avalokiteshvara, while practicing deeply with the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore, suddenly discovered that all of the five Skandhas are equally empty, and with this realization he overcame all Ill-being.

    “Listen Sariputra, this Body itself is Emptiness and Emptiness itself is this Body. This Body is not other than Emptiness and Emptiness is not other than this Body. The same is true of Feelings, Perceptions, Mental Formations, and Consciousness."

    “Listen Sariputra, all phenomena bear the mark of Emptinesss; their true nature is the nature of no Birth no Death, no Being no Non-being, no Defilement no Immaculacy, no Increasing no Decreasing."

    “That is why in Emptiness, Body, Feelings, Perceptions, Mental Formations and Consciousness are not separate self entities. The Eighteen Realms of Phenomena which are the six Sense Organs, the six Sense Objects, and the six Consciousnesses are also not separate self entities."

    “The Twelve Links of Interdependent Arising and their Extinction are also not separate self entities. Ill-being, the Causes of Ill-being, the End of Ill-being, the Path, insight and attainment, are also not separate self entities."

    “Whoever can see this no longer needs anything to attain."

    “Bodhisattvas who practice the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore, see no more obstacles in their mind, and because there are no more obstacles in their mind, they can overcome all fear, destroy all wrong perceptions and realize Perfect Nirvana."

    “All Buddhas in the past, present, and future by practicing the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore are all capable of attaining Authentic and Perfect Enlightenment."

    “Therefore Sariputra, it should be known that the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore is a Great Mantra, the most illuminating mantra, the highest mantra, a mantra beyond compare, the True Wisdom that has the power to put an end to all kinds of suffering. "

    Therefore let us proclaim a mantra to praise the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore: “Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!

    “Just as the birds enjoy the sky, and the deer enjoy the meadow, so do the wise enjoy dwelling in nirvana.”—Thich Nhat Hanh

    Thich Nhat Hanh translates the Heart Sutra‘s closing Sankrit mantra as:
    Gone, gone, gone all the way over, everyone gone to the other shore.
    Enlightenment !!

    gassho, Shokai
    stlah
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  2. #2
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    Gassho Shokai!

    Koki
    Satoday

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  3. #3
    Hi Shokai!

    I have run across this translation before in Thic Naht Hans book "The other shore". It is an interesting translation and I found it useful within the context of his commentary.

    I tried to chant it once, but I found it quite cumbersome. I definately prefer the more "traditional" English translation.

    Gassho,

    Junkyo
    SAT

    Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

  4. #4


    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH

  5. #5
    Junkyo;

    Actually, I prefer it in Japanese as that is what I first learned. However, another interesting translation is Shohaku Okumura's found in Ch. 5 of Living By Vow. Each gives us a different perspective and new insights.

    Gassho, Shokai
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    Junkyo;

    Actually, I prefer it in Japanese as that is what I first learned. However, another interesting translation is Shohaku Okumura's found in Ch. 5 of Living By Vow. Each gives us a different perspective and new insights.

    Gassho, Shokai
    Shokai,

    I also love chanting it in Japanese! I have not read Living by Vow. It is on my reading list. I am currently reading through Okumura's book Realizing Genjokoan. I think living by vow will be next up.

    Gassho,

    Junkyo
    SAT

    Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    I'd lend you my copy but, it's all dog eared and marked up with highlighter

    gassho, shokai
    stlah
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  8. #8
    Gassho Shokai.


    Gassho,
    Thomas
    SatToday LAH

  9. #9
    If you read it, and some of TNH's other writings, he seems somewhat influenced by Theravadan interpretations (as is common in Vietnam) and as some commentators note about him, is surprisingly a "things and their parts" oriented materialist.

    Let me briefly explain:

    First. most Mahayana translators prefer "form" (all things and phenomena, not just the human body, and how they appear on the surface as just being separate things with their own characteristics) to "body" (just this human body). TNH writes ...

    this Body itself is Emptiness and Emptiness itself is this Body.
    Most English renderings are along the lines:

    Form is no other than Emptiness, Emptiness no other than Form.
    Also. TNH writes ...

    “Ill-being, the Causes of Ill-being, the End of Ill-being, the Path, insight and attainment, are also not separate self entities."
    A common English translation is instead ...

    "No suffering, nor cause or end to suffering; No path, no wisdom and no gain.
    The latter, more standard Mahayana interpretation seeks to emphasize that, while there is in Buddhism suffering [Dukkha] and its ending, a Path to practice, wisdom to attain which leads to such ending ... at the same time, there is not because suffering and all the rest are originally Empty so no suffering in need of cure ... yet the realization of such fact of Emptiness is the Path to the cure for suffering! This is the nature of Zen Practice and most of Mahayana Buddhism. Instead, TNH seems to be emphasizing that suffering, the Path and Wisdom are just not "separate self-entities." That seems to emphasize to me that they are each dependent on each other, not that they are swept away in Emptiness.

    So, I would be a bit cautious here. Surprisingly, in some of his other writings, TNH does something much the same, and might even be seen as a bit of a materialist who views the universe as things and their parts and pieces. For example, in his famous poem on his view of "interbeing," he says ...

    If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow: and without trees, we cannot make paper. The cloud is essential for the paper to exist. If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either. So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are.
    http://www.awakin.org/read/view.php?tid=222
    It is a beautiful poem, and true as true can be.

    However, it also lacks something of the Zen and Mahayana sense of "Emptiness" which is like some grand oceanic wholeness which sweeps in and out all of this beyond just constituent parts and their relationships. It is a subtle point. It is a bit like the difference between saying (TNH) "an ocean its is water and its coral and its fish and their interrelationships" and the view "there is an ocean which is all and all the ocean, and the fish swimming is the ocean swimming, yet there is not even need for the word "ocean." Something like that.

    I would be cautious of such a "pieces and parts" interpretation for purposes of Zen practice.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-21-2019 at 02:41 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    If you read it, and some of TNH's other writings, he seems somewhat influenced by Theravadan interpretations (as is common in Vietnam) and is very materialist. I prefer "form" (all things and phenomena) to "body" (just this human body). TNH writes ...



    Most English renderings are along the lines:



    Also. TNH writes ...



    A common English translation is instead ...



    The latter seeks to emphasize that, while there is in Buddhism suffering [Dukkha] and its ending, a path to practice, wisdom to attain which leads to such ending ... at the same time, there is not because suffering and all the rest are originally Empty ... yet the realization of such fact of Emptiness is the Path to the cure for suffering! This is the nature of Zen Practice and most of Mahayana Buddhism. Instead, TNH seems to be emphasizing that suffering, the Path and Wisdom are just not "separate self-entities." That seems to just emphasize to me that they are each dependent on each other, not that they are swept away in Emptiness.

    So, I would be a bit cautious here. Surprisingly, in some of his other writings, TNH does something much the same, and might even be seen as a bit of a materialist who see the universe as things and their parts and pieces. For example, in his famous poem on his view of "interbeing," he says ...



    It is a beautiful poem, and true as true can be.

    However, it also lacks something of the Zen and Mahayana sense of "Emptiness" which is like some grand oceanic wholeness which sweeps in and out all of this beyond just constituent parts and their relationships. It is a subtle point. It is a bit like the difference between saying (TNH) "an ocean its is water and its coral and its fish and their interrelationships" and the view "there is an ocean which is all and all the ocean, and the fish swimming is the ocean swimming, yet there is not even need for the word "ocean." Something like that.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Hi Jundo,

    Is it then perhaps that phenomena (dharmas) are more like a wave on the ocean. Rising up, persisting for a while, seemingly separate, and eventually passing away back into the ocean only to arise, persist, and pass once again?

    I know I have run into a similar example before. It is less materialistic the an "object dependent" example. Of course the wave is always still part of the ocean, and only appears to be separate.

    Gassho,

    Junkyo
    SAT

    Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Junkyo View Post
    Hi Jundo,

    Is it then perhaps that phenomena (dharmas) are more like a wave on the ocean. Rising up, persisting for a while, seemingly separate, and eventually passing away back into the ocean only to arise, persist, and pass once again?

    I know I have run into a similar example before. It is less materialistic the an "object dependent" example. Of course the wave is always still part of the ocean, and only appears to be separate.

    Gassho,

    Junkyo
    SAT

    Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk
    I don't want to turn this into philosophizing about this, because that is a great error for Zen folks. It is like you say, and may be more like the wondrous difference between a Grand Symphony of the universe heard and felt in the bones which sweeps in, yet is, every note and bar and the feeling and the wholeness and the beauty which truly makes the separate notes and instruments appear yet disappear in the power of the entire sweep ... which is the music and the musicians and listeners too as one beyond one, appearing and vanishing ...

    ... vs. just speaking of the symphony as primarily the relationship between groups of notes or separate instruments (e.g., the music contains the horns and the violins like TNH'S "the paper contains the clouds and sun").

    This is very hard to explain, so I will let Dogen handle it (Anzan Hoshin / Yasuda Dainen translation) ...

    The moment of Avalokitesvara's [Kannon Bodhisattva's] practice of vast and perfect knowing is the clear seeing with the whole body that the five aggregates are all empty. Existence is the forming of the five aggregates of form, basic reactivity, symbolization, habitual patterning, and consciousness [[jundo: basically the mental steps in our experience of a world of things]. These are five aspects of perfect knowing because clearly seeing these is perfect knowing. If you understand this, then you can understand the teaching that "form is emptiness, emptiness is only form" Form is form. Emptiness is emptiness. It is the hundred grasses [all the separate thing that appear in the world], it is all forms
    ...

    My [Dogen's] late Master Rujing once said:

    "The whole body is a mouth, hung in space.
    It doesn't matter from where the wind blows
    -- north, south, east, west --
    the windbell always speaks of perfect knowing:
    -- rin! rin! rin!"

    This is the sound of perfect knowing in the Transmission of the Lineage of Awakened Ones and Ancestors. It is the knowing of the whole body, the whole knowing of other, the whole knowing of self, the whole knowing of north, south, east, west.

    Sakyamuni the Awakened One said, "Sariputra, all beings should abide in this perfect knowing as have all the Awakened Ones." ... Thus the Awakened One, the Generous One, is nothing other than perfect knowing. Perfect knowing is all things. "All things" are the forms of emptiness: no arising, no falling, no purity or impurity, no increasing and no decreasing. Manifesting perfect knowing is manifesting the Awakened One. You should question into this, investigate it, honour and proclaim it.
    Digg it. Is is more than parts and pieces, more than the notes and instruments. It is the music in the bones, and you and I are that music too.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-21-2019 at 04:34 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I don't want to turn this into philosophizing about this, because that is a great error for Zen folks. It is like you say, and may be more like the wondrous difference between a Grand Symphony of the universe heard and felt in the bones which sweeps in, yet is, every note and bar and the feeling and the wholeness and the beauty which truly makes the separate notes and instruments appear yet disappear in the power of the entire sweep ... which is the music and the musicians and listeners too as one beyond one, appearing and vanishing ...

    ... vs. just speaking of the symphony as primarily the relationship between groups of notes or separate instruments (e.g., the music contains the horns and the violins like TNH'S "the paper contains the clouds and sun").

    This is very hard to explain, so I will let Dogen handle it (Anzan Hoshin / Yasuda Dainen translation) ...



    Digg it. Is is more than parts and pieces, more than the notes and instruments. It is the music in the bones, and you and I are that music too.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Thank you Jundo!

    Gassho,

    Junkyo
    SAT

    Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    The Heart Sutra / translation by Thich Nhat Hanh

    Avalokiteshvara, while practicing deeply with the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore, suddenly discovered that all of the five Skandhas are equally empty, and with this realization he overcame all Ill-being.

    “Listen Sariputra, this Body itself is Emptiness and Emptiness itself is this Body. This Body is not other than Emptiness and Emptiness is not other than this Body. The same is true of Feelings, Perceptions, Mental Formations, and Consciousness."

    “Listen Sariputra, all phenomena bear the mark of Emptinesss; their true nature is the nature of no Birth no Death, no Being no Non-being, no Defilement no Immaculacy, no Increasing no Decreasing."

    “That is why in Emptiness, Body, Feelings, Perceptions, Mental Formations and Consciousness are not separate self entities. The Eighteen Realms of Phenomena which are the six Sense Organs, the six Sense Objects, and the six Consciousnesses are also not separate self entities."

    “The Twelve Links of Interdependent Arising and their Extinction are also not separate self entities. Ill-being, the Causes of Ill-being, the End of Ill-being, the Path, insight and attainment, are also not separate self entities."

    “Whoever can see this no longer needs anything to attain."

    “Bodhisattvas who practice the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore, see no more obstacles in their mind, and because there are no more obstacles in their mind, they can overcome all fear, destroy all wrong perceptions and realize Perfect Nirvana."

    “All Buddhas in the past, present, and future by practicing the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore are all capable of attaining Authentic and Perfect Enlightenment."

    “Therefore Sariputra, it should be known that the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore is a Great Mantra, the most illuminating mantra, the highest mantra, a mantra beyond compare, the True Wisdom that has the power to put an end to all kinds of suffering. "

    Therefore let us proclaim a mantra to praise the Insight that Brings Us to the Other Shore: “Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha!

    “Just as the birds enjoy the sky, and the deer enjoy the meadow, so do the wise enjoy dwelling in nirvana.”—Thich Nhat Hanh

    Thich Nhat Hanh translates the Heart Sutra‘s closing Sankrit mantra as:
    Gone, gone, gone all the way over, everyone gone to the other shore.
    Enlightenment !!

    gassho, Shokai
    stlah
    Hi Shokai,

    Thanks for sharing! I have liked the one he used in The Heart of Understanding. Reading that book was the first time I started to get a little glimpse into the Heart Sutra - so I have a certain connection to it.

    The Bodhisattva Avalokita, while moving in the deep course of Perfect Understanding, shed light on the five skandhas and found them equally empty. After this penetration, he overcame all pain.

    "Listen, Shariputra, form is emptiness, emptiness is form, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not differ from form. The same is true with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, and consciousness.

    "Hear, Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness; they are neither produced nor destroyed, neither defiled nor immaculate, neither increasing nor decreasing.

    Therefore, in emptiness there is neither form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor mental formations, nor consciousness; no eye, or ear, or nose, or tongue, or body, or mind, no form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realms of elements (from eyes to mind-consciousness); no interdependent origins and no extinction of them (from ignorance to old age and death); no suffering, no origination of suffering, no extinction of suffering, no path; no understanding, no attainment.

    "Because there is no attainment, the bodhisattvas, supported by the Perfection of Understanding, find no obstacles for their minds. Having no obstacles, they overcome fear, liberating themselves forever from illusion and realizing perfect Nirvana. All buddhas in the past, present, and future, thanks to this Perfect Understanding, arrive at full, right, and universal Enlightenment.

    "Therefore, one should know that Perfect Understanding is a great mantra, is the highest mantra, is the unequalled mantra, the destroyer of all suffering, the incorruptible truth. A mantra of Prajnaparamita should therefore be proclaimed. This is the mantra:

    "Gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha."


    Thank you for your teachings Jundo. They help me.


    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH
    Last edited by Shinshi; 01-21-2019 at 04:35 PM.
    空道 心志 Kudo Shinshi
    I am just a priest-in-training, any resemblance between what I post and actual teachings is purely coincidental.
    E84I - JAJ

  14. #14
    In a crunch I like this version:

    Mu! or No! or Does not apply!

    Short and to the point.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  15. #15
    Hello to all,

    This my first reply in the forum, but I think I have a question that applies in thsi thread (if not, I apologize). I usually chant the sino-japanese version of the Heart Sutra, but I use the translation that is available in the Sotozen-net:

    https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng.../pdf/01/04.pdf

    I find the translation to be more concise and direct than the others I have found. I'd like to know what you think of this translation?


    Gassho
    Mateus

    Sat today

  16. #16
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by mateus.baldin View Post
    Hello to all,

    This my first reply in the forum, but I think I have a question that applies in thsi thread (if not, I apologize). I usually chant the sino-japanese version of the Heart Sutra, but I use the translation that is available in the Sotozen-net:

    https://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/eng.../pdf/01/04.pdf

    I find the translation to be more concise and direct than the others I have found. I'd like to know what you think of this translation?


    Gassho
    Mateus

    Sat today
    Hey Mateus,

    There are many different translations to the sutras, not just to the Heart Sutra ... neither one is a right or wrong translation, it really depends on the translator. That being said, regardless of the translation they all express the same beauty of reality right here and now. So if this translation calls to you, then please practice with that one. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

  17. #17
    Just as Shingen said.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18
    Thank you for the proceeding discussions. The Responses to this thread are interesting to say the least.
    I was introduced to the Heart Sutra twenty-five years ago by a young Japanese lady whom my late wife was tutoring in conversational English in exchange for being introduced to several Japanese cultural experiences. She gave me a beautiful calligraphic model and copy sheets along with an Illustrated Japanese book on the Heart Sutra. I used to take this material to work and while waiting around during slow periods our translators would help me study. Consequently, we got into some heavy discussions on Buddhism vs Christianity as well as committing the Heart Sutra to memory (them as well as me).
    You are probably all aware that Most Sanghas have their own Chant Books, Treeleaf being no exception:see here, and so the polite thing to do is 'When in Rome...." Having said that, Jundo and Shingen have both above reiterated there are many translations as similarly with Shobogenzo or any other of the Sutras and it is sometimes worth researching these to deepen your personal understanding of what the original writings are pointing to; or at least give you a starting point to form your questions.
    Again, Thank you and gassho, Shokai
    stlah
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  19. #19
    Thank you all for the kind responses. I will look at other translations and use our own.
    Gassho,
    Mateus

    Sat today/LAH

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mateus.baldin View Post
    Thank you all for the kind responses. I will look at other translations and use our own.
    Gassho,
    Mateus

    Sat today/LAH
    And, of course, you can chant in Portuguese. Language does not matter for what is more than words.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by mateus.baldin View Post
    Thank you all for the kind responses. I will look at other translations and use our own.
    Gassho,
    Mateus

    Sat today/LAH
    Sutra do Coração
    OM, homenagem à venerável perfeição da sabedoria!

    O bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara, em profunda meditação Prajna Paramita
    viu claramente a vacuidade da natureza dos cinco agregados
    e libertou-se da dor.

    Ó Shariputra, forma não é senão vacuidade,
    Vacuidade não é senão forma;

    Forma é precisamente vacuidade,
    vacuidade precisamente forma.
    Sensação, percepção, reacção e consciência
    são também assim.

    Ó Shariputra, todas as coisas são expressões da vacuidade.
    Não nascidas, não destruídas; não maculadas, não puras,
    Sem crescimento nem declínio.
    Assim na vacuidade não há forma,
    Sensação, percepção, reacção nem consciência;
    Não há olhos, ouvidos, nariz, língua, corpo, mente;
    Não há cor, som, odor, sabor, tacto, objecto;
    Não há campo de visão nem campo de consciência;
    Não há ignorância nem fim da ignorância.
    Não há velhice e morte nem cessação da velhice e da morte;
    Não há sofrimento nem causa do sofrimento.
    Não há caminho, não há sabedoria nem proveito.

    Sem proveito – assim os Bodhisattvas vivem esta Prajna Paramita
    Sem obstáculos na mente.
    Sem obstáculos e por isso sem medo.
    Muito para além das ilusões, Nirvana é aqui.
    Todos os Budas passados, presentes e futuros vivem esta Prajna Paramita
    E alcançam a suprema, perfeita iluminação.

    Por isso deves saber que Prajna Paramita é o sagrado mantra;
    O mantra da grande sabedoria, o melhor mantra.
    O mantra luminoso, o mantra supremo,
    O mantra incomparável
    Que dissipa todo o sofrimento.
    Isto é verdade.
    Por isso pratica o mantra da Prajna Praramita
    Pratica este mantra e proclama:

    GATE GATE PARAGATE PARASAMGATE BODHI SVAHA!

    Isto completa o Coração da Venerável Perfeição da Sabedoria.



    Gassho, Jishin, ST

  22. #22
    Thank you Jundo, Jishin and Shokai. I didn’t know there where Portuguese translations available (but I also didn’t look for them, so... my bab!).
    Gassho,
    Mateus
    Sat today/LAH

  23. #23
    Very interesting thread. I enjoy reading and listening to TNH from time to time, but his explanation of emptiness always struck me as different (not wrong, but not what other people teach), but I couldn't put my finger on how it was different. Bits and pieces.

    I first read the heart sutra in several English translations, but mostly missed the meaning. One day I searched for Thai translations, and my understanding suddenly deepened. It just clicked. Since then I have chanted it in Thai when on my own. I chant in our English (and Japanese) version for zazenkai and other events here. Both are good, neither are the heart of the sutra, that is somewhat beyond words.

    Gassho

    Southern Forest (Nanrin)

    St
    南 - Southern
    林 - Forest

  24. #24
    I have enjoyed reading everyone's comments in this thread. I used to be very engaged in the process of determining the "precise" meaning of things, but now enjoy more the human connections that develop from the debate and heartfelt consideration, though the intellectual in me is still alive, but locked in the cupboard under the stairs for now! It is all dharma at the end of the day I suppose

    For me, I have often needed to remind myself to stop looking at the finger pointing at the moon, though when you can't see the moon it is helpful to have a knowledgeable person point it out

    Gassho, sattoday - Tokan

  25. #25
    Member Hoseki's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    If you read it, and some of TNH's other writings, he seems somewhat influenced by Theravadan interpretations (as is common in Vietnam) and as some commentators note about him, is surprisingly a "things and their parts" oriented materialist.

    Let me briefly explain:

    First. most Mahayana translators prefer "form" (all things and phenomena, not just the human body, and how they appear on the surface as just being separate things with their own characteristics) to "body" (just this human body). TNH writes ...



    Most English renderings are along the lines:



    Also. TNH writes ...



    A common English translation is instead ...



    The latter, more standard Mahayana interpretation seeks to emphasize that, while there is in Buddhism suffering [Dukkha] and its ending, a Path to practice, wisdom to attain which leads to such ending ... at the same time, there is not because suffering and all the rest are originally Empty so no suffering in need of cure ... yet the realization of such fact of Emptiness is the Path to the cure for suffering! This is the nature of Zen Practice and most of Mahayana Buddhism. Instead, TNH seems to be emphasizing that suffering, the Path and Wisdom are just not "separate self-entities." That seems to emphasize to me that they are each dependent on each other, not that they are swept away in Emptiness.

    So, I would be a bit cautious here. Surprisingly, in some of his other writings, TNH does something much the same, and might even be seen as a bit of a materialist who views the universe as things and their parts and pieces. For example, in his famous poem on his view of "interbeing," he says ...



    It is a beautiful poem, and true as true can be.

    However, it also lacks something of the Zen and Mahayana sense of "Emptiness" which is like some grand oceanic wholeness which sweeps in and out all of this beyond just constituent parts and their relationships. It is a subtle point. It is a bit like the difference between saying (TNH) "an ocean its is water and its coral and its fish and their interrelationships" and the view "there is an ocean which is all and all the ocean, and the fish swimming is the ocean swimming, yet there is not even need for the word "ocean." Something like that.

    I would be cautious of such a "pieces and parts" interpretation for purposes of Zen practice.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Hi Jundo,

    Is this an accurate description of Thay's work? The world is full of objects but these objects become parts of other things as well as being broken down into parts. So there is a back and forth between unity and multiplicity depending on our view point. So a car is a car when I'm trying to get my kids ready to leave but when it won't start its no longer a car but a collection of parts and one of those parts is malfunctioning. So its still a car but the unity has become the background while the parts become the foreground. Where as when it was just a car the unity was in the foreground and the multiplicity was in the background. So parts of the car are clearly materially related to other things.

    I'm trying to get my head around some of this. I feel like this is from a certain point of view and there are times when we need to let go of point of views and just let what's happening happen. Does that sound right?


    Thanks!

    Gassho
    Hoseki
    Sattoday

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoseki View Post
    Hi Jundo,

    Is this an accurate description of Thay's work? The world is full of objects but these objects become parts of other things as well as being broken down into parts. So there is a back and forth between unity and multiplicity depending on our view point. So a car is a car when I'm trying to get my kids ready to leave but when it won't start its no longer a car but a collection of parts and one of those parts is malfunctioning. So its still a car but the unity has become the background while the parts become the foreground. Where as when it was just a car the unity was in the foreground and the multiplicity was in the background. So parts of the car are clearly materially related to other things.

    I'm trying to get my head around some of this. I feel like this is from a certain point of view and there are times when we need to let go of point of views and just let what's happening happen. Does that sound right?


    Thanks!

    Gassho
    Hoseki
    Sattoday
    Hmmm. I am going to present a Talk at Saturday's Zazenkai on Dogen's "Gyobutsu Iigi" where he presents such a wondrous knowing of the deep union and interflowing of all time and space and beings and things ... it is just so much more than cars and car parts (although they, and every other grain of sand or bird or star or rock or war or trash heap of the universe and life itself are included, nothing left out) ...

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  27. #27
    Member Hoseki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hmmm. I am going to present a Talk at Saturday's Zazenkai on Dogen's "Gyobutsu Iigi" where he presents such a wondrous knowing of the deep union and interflowing of all time and space and beings and things ... it is just so much more than cars and car parts (although they, and every other grain of sand or bird or star or rock or war or trash heap of the universe and life itself are included, nothing left out) ...

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Neat! I'm looking forward to it.

    Gassho,

    Hoseki
    Sattoday/LAH

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