My Genzo-e Journal: 37th Fascicle of Shobogenzo "Shunju"

[sjlabat]

Last Monday I returned from Genzo-e at Sanshinji, Shohaku Okumura Roshi’s temple in Bloomington, Indiana. Genzo-e lasted about six days. While Okumura Roshi taught for about three hours each day, the day included roughly seven hours of zazen as well. I was impressed by the international group attending Genzo-e. Students hailed from Japan, Germany, Holland, and even Richmond, Virginia. The topic for his teaching was the 37th Fascicle of Shobogenzo “Shunju” (Spring and Autumn). In the days to come I would like to give my recap, my thoughts, regarding what Okumura covered.

As a disclaimer – any insight into understanding Shobogenzo are Okumura’s. Errors, omissions and misunderstandings are entirely mine!

Context:

Dogen moved his monastery from Kyoto to rural Fukui province (near the Sea of Japan) abruptly in 1243. While conflict with the more established Tendai sect may have been at issue, Okumura Roshi speculated an additional, or perhaps alternate, reason: Dogen may not have received the reception in Kyoto that he sought. Disappointed, he moved his monastery to continue a more dedicated practice less encumbered by the politics of the big city. Okumura also offered the thought that had he wanted to remain in Kyoto Dogen possessed the political, economic, and familial connections that could have marshalled support against his competitors. Okumura Roshi – offered this as a possibility for consideration and not as an assertion of established fact.

The early days of what would become Eiheiji were difficult. Winds blowing off of the Sea of Japan brought tremendous snow and cold to the monastic company living in a broken-down temple with a kitchen located at an inconvenient distance.
Certainly, many of Dogen’s monks would have asked (or at very least thought)…

“When cold (especially cold!) or heat arrive, how should we avoid it?”

In the days to come I would like to continue with:

1) The Koan on cold and heat
2) Two middle ways
3) Dogen and the five ranks
4) Relative and the Absolute

Your thoughts, corrections, comments appreciated
gassho,
sjl
sat.lah

[Jishin]

“When cold (especially cold!) or heat arrive, how should we avoid it?”

It’s not a problem unless it’s a problem. I don’t see a problem. Don’t touch the hook. Now cut my tongue out and feed it to the dogs.



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Thank you, Sean, and welcome back.

Okumura Roshi's theory about Kyoto and Dogen's connections is interesting, but I tend to doubt one aspect. Everyone who was anyone in Kyoto had connections, and the monks of the Tendai Sect (not to mention the Rinzai monks of the huge temple compared to Dogen's temple being built practically next door) had many better connections than Dogen, the orphaned illegitimate child of an unnamed dead mid-level aristocrat who had been already a priest and on his own for almost 35 years since being shipped off by the family, even as his mother died and that branch of the family was out of favor anyway. In other words, Dogen was no longer quite so well connected at all, especially compared to those powerful folks who found him bothersome.

All the history indicates that he got squeezed out of town and was tempted by the offer of Lord Hatano, a local lord off in the boondocks, to build him a monastery.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

It’s not a problem unless it’s a problem. I don’t see a problem. Don’t touch the hook. Now cut my tongue out and feed it to the dogs.



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Said by a guy living in a house with central air and heating. Don't touch the thermostat!

Even your dogs have heated dog houses.

Gassho, J (currently writing this while sitting next to a heater while wearing a blanket)

SatTodayLAH

[sjlabat]

Thanks for the input and comments - I remember reading about the flight to fukui in Doumoulin's book but can't say I know all that much in depth about the event.
gassho
sjl

[Jakuden]

How wonderful Sean, thank you so much for sharing your experience with us!! I can’t wait to hear more.

(Yes I think Bodhi and Terra could both do that, will await the videos!!)

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jundo]

I split off our DOGen posts so that we can focus on Dogen.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...d-Master-DOGen

Gassho, J

SATTODAYLah

[sjlabat]

I kinda liked the DOGen posts in there!
gassho,
sjl

[Kokuu]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and observations, Sean. It must have been a great experience to hear Okumura teach.

That is an interesting fascicle and I look forward to your words regarding the koan and five ranks.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Meitou]

What a great post Sean, I envy you in the nicest way possible and I thank you for sharing this experience. I'm sure it will be especially important to people like myself who may never have the chance to do something similar. I'm looking forward to your updates.
Gassho
Meitou
Satwithyoualltoday lah

[sjlabat]

Thanks everybody for your comments - and, please be sure to write if something doesn't sound 'quite right.' Writing helps clarify my thoughts on all of this.
thanks again,
gassho
sjl
sat, lah

[sjlabat]

Okumura Roshi points out that this fascicle was delivered to the assembly twice, so apparently it was important to Dogen. Okumura does not attempt to explicitly resolve why this fascicle was important to Dogen. A listener, well, this listener anyway, surmised that it may have been important because of the koan that opens the fascicle and also because of what the fascicle may say about the “middle way,” Dogen’s relationship with the “five ranks,” and what Dogen may have been trying to say about his experience of the relative and the absolute.

Dogen delivers the koan to his frozen monks:

A chess game between between Monk and Dongshan/Tozan –
Nameless Monk asks: When cold or heat come, how should we avoid it?
Dongshan/Tozan responds: Why don’t you go to the place without cold and heat?
Monk: What is the place without cold and heat like?
Dongshan/Tozan: When it is cold, kill the acarya with cold. When it is hot, kill the acarya with heat.

“Acarya,” mature teacher who can take on students of his/her own, the people who comprised Dogen’s audience – so, pretty much means “yourself,” kill yourself with cold… (note, and Okumura explicitly stated – Dogen is not advocating harm to self or others in this koan!) Rather, entering fully into the moment where this is no ‘this’ vs. ‘that’ ‘comfort’ vs. ‘discomfort’ ‘heat’ vs. ‘cold.’

For Dogen, the experience of cold and heat may have been in invitation to develop “Magnanimous mind” a mind that does not discriminate between what I like vs. what I don’t like but accept all conditions wholeheartedly.

In this koan, being free from “too cold/too hot” means freeing myself from “just right” as well.

Being free from ‘cold and heat’ is not an easy practice. Dogen likely delivered this koan to an assembly where cold, potentially fatal cold, was not theory – but everyday suffering. Likewise, what do you do when cold and heat, sickness, old age, and death are not theoryland – but every day, very real suffering.

Gassho,
Sjl
Sat,lah

[Beakon]

I will have to keep this in mind when I'm ready to take cold showers or drinking cold tea!

Sat Today
Sean


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[sjlabat]

Yeah,
esp. with cold drinks - I get that annoying tooth-ache thing...
sjl

[Jundo]

I have to keep this in mind today, living in a traditional Japanese wood and paper house in which I can see through gaps in the walls to the outside in some places.

I am reminded of the new Zen Hall that was built about 20 years ago at the branch of Eiheiji Training Monastery in Tokyo. I used to sit there each week. The new Zen Hall had modern AC and heating, and the Roshi kept the remote control right next to his seating place. I remember a couple of times when, right at the start of Zazen, we could here the "peep peep peep" as the Roshi adjusted the temperature with the control.

Another temple I sat at in the mountains, a Rinzai place, would open the big wooden windows at the end of Zazen on a cold day. I remember the snow blowing off the rafters, and into the room where we sat, some landing on my shoulders.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jakuden]

Thank you for this teaching. I am too often attached to comfortable temperatures, as a matter of fact I just adjusted the thermostat in my hotel room before reading this. Metta to all who do not have protection from heat or cold.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jishin]

Hi,

Since the teacher always has the last word and there always is more than one correct answer, the only way to “win” the game is not to play it at all. Without the student there is no teacher. With no teacher there is no koan. With no koan there is no problem. Just chop wood and carry water for the benefit of others. This is just truth in action, not a koan at all.

Had a great thanksgiving! Hope you did too!

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[sjlabat]

Jishin,
Your comment kind of jumps ahead to what I'm planning as the 'punch line' for what I'm trying to write.... Now, forget about it and just sit.
gassho
sjl
sat, lah

[Jishin]

Jishin,
Your comment kind of jumps ahead to what I'm planning as the 'punch line' for what I'm trying to write.... Now, forget about it and just sit.
gassho
sjl
sat, lah

You are right.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[sjlabat]

Two Middle Ways…
One of the things I found helpful with Okumura’s presentations, in this case in the context of ‘Shunju’ was his expansion on two meanings of “middle way.”
1) Of course the one that immediately comes to mind is the ‘middle way’ between extreme self-denial and self-indulgence. Often the word “asceticism” seems to have a bad implication in Buddhist circles – as in Shakyamuni almost starving himself to death before meeting the woman with the porridge. Many more ‘mainline’ monastic movements within Christianity subscribed to a ‘middle way’ ‘asceticism’ that is similar in intent (in avoiding self-indulgence on one hand and also extreme rigor on the other).
2) What I found helpful, especially, was his attention to a second kind of ‘middle way.’ “Emptyness” as a ‘middle way’ between “is” and “is not.” This reminds me of Case 5 in Aitken’s “Gateless Barrier” the Mumonkan – Hsiang-yen: Up a Tree. “The priest Hsiang-yen said, ‘It is as though you were up in a tree, hanging from a branch with your teeth. Your hands and feet can’t touch any branch. Someone appears beneath the tree and asks, ‘What is the meaning of Bodhidharma’s coming from the West?’ If you do not answer, you evade your responsibility. If you do answer, you lose your life. What do you do?’”
Gassho
Sean
Sat,lah

[Jakuden]

Two Middle Ways…
One of the things I found helpful with Okumura’s presentations, in this case in the context of ‘Shunju’ was his expansion on two meanings of “middle way.”
1) Of course the one that immediately comes to mind is the ‘middle way’ between extreme self-denial and self-indulgence. Often the word “asceticism” seems to have a bad implication in Buddhist circles – as in Shakyamuni almost starving himself to death before meeting the woman with the porridge. Many more ‘mainline’ monastic movements within Christianity subscribed to a ‘middle way’ ‘asceticism’ that is similar in intent (in avoiding self-indulgence on one hand and also extreme rigor on the other).
2) What I found helpful, especially, was his attention to a second kind of ‘middle way.’ “Emptyness” as a ‘middle way’ between “is” and “is not.” This reminds me of Case 5 in Aitken’s “Gateless Barrier” the Mumonkan – Hsiang-yen: Up a Tree. “The priest Hsiang-yen said, ‘It is as though you were up in a tree, hanging from a branch with your teeth. Your hands and feet can’t touch any branch. Someone appears beneath the tree and asks, ‘What is the meaning of Bodhidharma’s coming from the West?’ If you do not answer, you evade your responsibility. If you do answer, you lose your life. What do you do?’”
Gassho
Sean
Sat,lah

That's interesting! I will have to sit with that second one for a bit!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[sjlabat]

Dogen and the “Five-Ranks”

My main purpose in this little ‘journal’ is to help me understand what Okumura, Roshi was discussing at genzo-e. So, if I write something that sounds really ‘off the wall,’ or ‘did Okumura say that!’ Please let me know! Okumura gave some discussion of Dogen and the “five ranks,” – I’m not sure if I have a particularly good grasp on this…
Okumura openly wondered about Dogen’s relation to the “five ranks,” did he not like the five ranks in themselves? Or did he dislike how the five ranks were, or could be, used? (a formula to capture ‘enlightment’ in amber as my own possession? Words can’t capture what can’t be captured – but words are what we have – more on relative/absolute next time).

Okumura pointed to “Shunju” in the Blue Cliff Record for more on the five ranks

1 – “Fresh eye,” like the physical eye – can see near but not far, front but not what’s behind. Discriminates between ‘this’ and ‘that.’ Relative within the absolute.
In Blue Cliff, “The biased within the correct: In the middle of the first night, before the moon shines, No wonder when they meet, they don’t recognize each other. Each is hidden, still embracing the aversion of former days.

2 – “divine eye,” Objective, scientific, for ‘heavenly beings’ who try to get the ‘whole story’ and see what’s on the dark side of the Moon. Absolute with the relative.
In Blue Cliff The correct within the biased: At dawn an old woman encounters an ancient mirror, clearly she sees her face – there is no other reality. Don’t go mistaking the image for the head.

(Ranks One and two – as ‘discriminating,’ ‘this’ vs. ‘that’)

3 – “Wisdom eye,” Seeing beyond ‘this’ vs. ‘that’ looking toward emptiness, equality, universality. Coming from within the absolute.
In Blue Cliff, Coming from within the correct: Within nothingness there’s a road out of the dust. If you can just avoid violating the present taboo name. You will surpass the eloquent ones of former dynasties who silenced every tongue.

4 – “dharma eye,” Arrival at mutual integration, difference and unity, relative and absolute at same time. I have a hand and I have five fingers (four fingers and a thumb?) – they are distinct things but united at the same time. “Wisdom eye” is not quite enough…Shobogenzo takes its name from this fourth rank.
In Blue Cliff, Arrival within the biased: When two swords cross points, there’s not need to withdraw – A good hand is like a lotus in fire – Clearly he naturally has the energy to reach the heavens.

5 – “Buddha eye,” Unity attained, is all in all – does a bodhisattva want to go quite this far?
In Blue Cliff, Arrival within both at once. He does not fall into being or non-being – who dares to associate with him (or her)? Everyone wants to get out of the ordinary flow. But after all he returns and sits in the ashes.

Okumura, during his presentations was always tentative – he has studied and sat with this material for a very long time – yet, he often, admitted that he may be ‘wrong.’ He stated that even if Japanese is your first language and you are intimately familiar with the culture in which Dogen lived and wrote his writings were challenging and difficult (intentionally so!) to break up calcified and conventional thinking and experiencing.

[Jundo]

Thank you, Sean.

It is interesting. Zen folks have been debating, and finding different meanings in the "5 Ranks" or "5 Positions" for centuries and centuries. In fact, the content of the Ranks have changed from time to time. If you would like to read a paper on the wild, rather esoteric interpretations that some of Keizan's successors found in the "5 Ranks," this is interesting.

Multiple Layers of Transmission Gasan Jōseki and the Goi Doctrine in the Medieval Sōtō school
http://edizionicafoscari.unive.it/me...r-53-17-13.pdf

I am rather a simpleton on the "5 positions," which I believe just try to convey a bit of the dance of the "relative" world of this and that, me and you, and the "absolute" beyond all categories and divisions, whereby the relative is the relative, the relative is absolute, the absolute is the relative, the absolute is the absolute, all seen and experienced to various depths, and yet we leap beyond even those categories too. Dogen very much upheld such a view, as did about all Mahayana Buddhists. Dogen's criticism of the 5 Ranks was probably both because it was being turned too much into a formula, as well as too much of a fetish on to which folks were loading all manner of esoteric interpretations.

The opening paragraphs of Dogen's Genjo Koan and much of the Shobogenzo dances the "absolute" and "relative." My upcoming book on Dogen and the Shobogenzo will touch on much of this too, and I don't think that there is really need to overcomplicate it. Sometimes, simplicity is clarity.

Gassho, J

[sjlabat]

Jundo,
thanks - got the article you sent and I do plan on taking a look at it soon
gassho
sean
sat, lah

[Jundo]

Against my better judgement (and having nothing much else to do on a holiday night ), let me play and try to interpret some of the following. Alas, I will fail like all others before me.

1 – “Fresh eye,” like the physical eye – can see near but not far, front but not what’s behind. Discriminates between ‘this’ and ‘that.’ Relative within the absolute.

This is the ordinary way we see the world as divided, our eye (me) looking out at all the divided things of the world (not me). We have a limited perspective, and divide the world into this and that, nice things and not nice, big and small, near and far, blue and red, me and not me etc. It is Samsara, the relative world.

In Blue Cliff, “The biased within the correct: In the middle of the first night, before the moon shines, No wonder when they meet, they don’t recognize each other. Each is hidden, still embracing the aversion of former days.

The moon, which represents the "absolute" view beyond all division, is not yet seen. Of course (like the earthly moon when hidden behind clouds or the horizon) it is still present, although unseen.

2 – “divine eye,” Objective, scientific, for ‘heavenly beings’ who try to get the ‘whole story’ and see what’s on the dark side of the Moon. Absolute with the relative.
In Blue Cliff The correct within the biased: At dawn an old woman encounters an ancient mirror, clearly she sees her face – there is no other reality. Don’t go mistaking the image for the head.

I would say that an idea or vision of the absolute begins to emerge for us, right here in divided samsara, even as we look out with our limited eyes. We start to see that flowing wholeness which sweeps through all the division. ("correct" and "biased" are just two more traditional code words for "absolute" and "relative.") The woman experiences the wholeness as a great mirror that holds all within in equanimity and wholeness, so she is both standing apart from the mirror AND always within the mirror too.

3 – “Wisdom eye,” Seeing beyond ‘this’ vs. ‘that’ looking toward emptiness, equality, universality. Coming from within the absolute.
In Blue Cliff, Coming from within the correct: Within nothingness there’s a road out of the dust. If you can just avoid violating the present taboo name. You will surpass the eloquent ones of former dynasties who silenced every tongue.

Pure absolute, with not the least division. Flowing wholeness without a single separate drop within, the Great Mirror with nothing more, not even a grain of dust reflected. ("Nothingness" is so misleading, for it sounds nihilistic. So, I prefer "Wholeness"). All words fail here actually, because any word creates an image of a separate mental thing.

4 – “dharma eye,” Arrival at mutual integration, difference and unity, relative and absolute at same time. I have a hand and I have five fingers (four fingers and a thumb?) – they are distinct things but united at the same time. “Wisdom eye” is not quite enough…Shobogenzo takes its name from this fourth rank.
In Blue Cliff, Arrival within the biased: When two swords cross points, there’s not need to withdraw – A good hand is like a lotus in fire – Clearly he naturally has the energy to reach the heavens.

Perfect harmony of the relative and absolute. Separate things are-yet-not, they are simply separate things yet fully the Mirror Flowing Wholeness too.

5 – “Buddha eye,” Unity attained, is all in all – does a bodhisattva want to go quite this far?
In Blue Cliff, Arrival within both at once. He does not fall into being or non-being – who dares to associate with him (or her)? Everyone wants to get out of the ordinary flow. But after all he returns and sits in the ashes.

Perhaps a reference to someone who can leap and pick and choose each and all of the above perspectve(s) (and perspectiveless) at once or as needed. Sometimes, more "absolute," sometimes more "relative" (just getting on with messy daily life), sometimes both at once in various mixes.

Maybe something like that.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

Against my better judgement (and having nothing much else to do on a holiday night ), let me play and try to interpret some of the following. Alas, I will fail like all others before me.

By the way, the "Five Ranks" had some earlier interpretations or variations through the years, but really not that different from the above. And, rather than "stages" of progress, one might see them as different vantages by which to know reality from different angles (and no angle at all) at different moments. Thus, I prefer the name "Five Positions" that the system is sometimes called by. It is some mix of the following (not necessarily in the following order), a little bit different from the above 5.

So, the basic idea is not so complicated:

-1- Only the relative, our ordinary human experience of division, good and bad things, and a separation of "self" and everything not ourself in the world with the resulting tensions and frictions.

-2- Only the absolute, radically beyond all divisions, appraisals, and the division of self and other.

-3- Mostly relative experienced, but with a subtle sense of the absolute at the same time somewhere there, like a hint of the moon peeking behind the clouds.

-4- Mostly absolute experience, but with a subtle experience of the relative.

-5- Relative and absolute perfectly known at once as one.

Something like that. I think that practitioners can bounce between these various perspectives (and "non-perspectives" because the "absolute" does not have the separation of viewer/viewed) depending on needs and the situation, and it is freeing. Samsara is Nirvana, Form is Emptiness (yet Form is not Emptiness, Form is just Form, Emptiness just Emptiness etc).

Later Zen folks with too much time on their hands tried to fancy it up.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tairin]

Later Zen folks with too much time on their hands tried to fancy it up.

That made me smile.


Tairin
Sat today to welcome the new year and lah

[sosen]

Thank you for this teaching Jundo.

sosen
_()_
st/lah