The best place to start with Dōgen.

[tlsk]

Hello All,

I’ve read a fair amount of “beginner’s” or “intro to zen” type books, and I’m thinking now would be a good time to break into studying the big man himself: Dōgen. The only problem is, where? Should I start with commentaries, or go right into Shobogenzo? Is it even worth studying him at all at this point in my practice?

Any guidance at all would be much appreciated!

-Taylor

SatToday


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[Chishou]

Hello Taylor,

Text wise, Fukanzazengi and Genjokoan are a must to read. Read different translations and some commentaries.

Okumura’s Realising Genjokoan is an excellent book.

Mike Chodo Cross also does a Fulanzazengi commentary somewhere online, I have it printed I can scan for you if you can’t find it.

I may get some flak for this, but Brad Warner does a good job at introducing people to Dogen in “Don’t be a jerk” and “It cam from beyond Zen”.

Bells and bows,
Chishou,
Sat


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[Horin]

hard to explain but in my experience, there are chapters/passages that i understand now but that i didnt understood some time ago. So i started from time to time to read several chapters again, especially that i did not understood. i do not try to go into it much intellectually but more reading the "context", or better leaving the thoughts aside and just go into it. Sometimes i dont understand sometimes i just agree with my own experience

[Tairin]

I am far from an authority but “Instructions for the Cook” (see “How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment”) seems like a good place to start in part because it is easy to see how to relate the text to one’s own life and practice.


Tairin
Sat today

[BadChemEng]

I am fortunate enough to live close to Indiana and will be going to Genzo-e with Shohaku in May. Hopefully that will be a nice introduction and study.

[Troy]

I started reading this one based on Jundo’s recommendation. I am really enjoying it. The author uses plain language and makes Dogen accessible which I appreciate. I am learning a lot.




Sat2day

[tlsk]

Thanks, guys! I’m a huge fan of Uchiyama and Okumura—I’ve read Opening the Hand... and The Zen Teaching of Homeless Kodo—so I’ll definitely be looking into those.

I’ll look into the ones by Brad Warner, too. I’ve actually listened to the audiobook of Sit Down and Shut Up, but haven’t come across the other ones.

Thanks again!

-Taylor
SatToday


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[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I have actually just completed two (2) book on "How to Read Dogen" (called "Letters from Dogen"), making his style accessible to modern readers. Look for those in print in the coming months. Just finishing the manuscripts (thanks Kirk!). In the meantime, here's a big hint ...


SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...A-Love-Supreme

How to Read Dogen
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-to-Read-Dogen

I would not recomment Okumura Roshi's commentary on the "Mountains and Waters Sutra" for people very new to Dogen (I think it better to have some handle on the old guy first), but I would very much recommend his "Realizing Genjo Koan."

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DRFL1UI...ng=UTF8&btkr=1

Also, I second the Uchiyama commentaries on Tenzo Kyokun (although technically not a part of "Shobogenzo") by Uchiyama Roshi, “Instructions for the Cook” (“How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment”)

https://www.amazon.com/How-Cook-Your...70_&dpSrc=srch

I actually have mixed feelings about Brad's two "simplifications" of Dogen (which stimulated me to write my books in part). They are a bit too dumbed down and I thinks he fluffs the explanations sometimes. It is cute how he plays with things (changing "rice and tea" to "fritos and coke" and such), but I am not sure that it makes Dogen much clearer. So, I actually don't know whether to recommend them that strongly. I would read them, but note that fact. "Don't be a Jerk" is fun and wonderful if you take it that way, but the second book "It Came from Beyond Zen" was most interesting to me because I am a Japanese translator who knew well the originals he was working with (he spends most of his commentary talking about his word choices compared to the original).

To understand Dogen, it is actually necessary to have some grounding in the basic Mahayana philosophy and other (often themselves pretty wild) works that he was using as his "standard tunes" for his playful jazz. Otherwise, it is like trying to understand Picasso's creative image of a chair without ever having seen or sat in a real chair. So, my "How to Read Dogen" threads above point to some excellent books by Taigen Dan Leighton and others that introduce that, and are very much recommended before diving into Dogen.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Troy]

Hi Guys,

I have actually just completed two (2) book on "How to Read Dogen" (called "Letters from Dogen"), making his style accessible to modern readers. Look for those in print in the coming months. Just finishing the manuscripts (thanks Kirk!). In the meantime, here's a big hint ...


SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...A-Love-Supreme

How to Read Dogen
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-to-Read-Dogen

I would not recomment Okumura Roshi's commentary on the "Mountains and Waters Sutra" for people very new to Dogen (I think it better to have some handle on the old guy first), but I would very much recommend his "Realizing Genjo Koan."

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DRFL1UI...ng=UTF8&btkr=1

Also, I second the Uchiyama commentaries on Tenzo Kyokun (although technically not a part of "Shobogenzo") by Uchiyama Roshi, “Instructions for the Cook” (“How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment”)

https://www.amazon.com/How-Cook-Your...70_&dpSrc=srch

I actually have mixed feelings about Brad's two "simplifications" of Dogen (which stimulated me to write my books in part). They are a bit too dumbed down and I thinks he fluffs the explanations sometimes. It is cute how he plays with things (changing "rice and tea" to "fritos and coke" and such), but I am not sure that it makes Dogen much clearer. So, I actually don't know whether to recommend them that strongly. I would read them, but note that fact. "Don't be a Jerk" is fun and wonderful if you take it that way, but the second book "It Came from Beyond Zen" was most interesting to me because I am a Japanese translator who knew well the originals he was working with (he spends most of his commentary talking about his word choices compared to the original).

To understand Dogen, it is actually necessary to have some grounding in the basic Mahayana philosophy and other (often themselves pretty wild) works that he was using as his "standard tunes" for his playful jazz. Otherwise, it is like trying to understand Picasso's creative image of a chair without ever having seen or sat in a real chair. So, my "How to Read Dogen" threads above point to some excellent books by Taigen Dan Leighton and others that introduce that, and are very much recommended before diving into Dogen.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Thank you Jundo. I am going to check out Realizing Genjokoan too. I am have read a couple books on Dogen but still consider myself a newbie. Please let us know when your books are available. That is exciting news!


Sat2day

[tlsk]

Hi Guys,

I have actually just completed two (2) book on "How to Read Dogen" (called "Letters from Dogen"), making his style accessible to modern readers. Look for those in print in the coming months. Just finishing the manuscripts (thanks Kirk!). In the meantime, here's a big hint ...


SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...A-Love-Supreme

How to Read Dogen
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-to-Read-Dogen

I would not recomment Okumura Roshi's commentary on the "Mountains and Waters Sutra" for people very new to Dogen (I think it better to have some handle on the old guy first), but I would very much recommend his "Realizing Genjo Koan."

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DRFL1UI...ng=UTF8&btkr=1

Also, I second the Uchiyama commentaries on Tenzo Kyokun (although technically not a part of "Shobogenzo") by Uchiyama Roshi, “Instructions for the Cook” (“How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment”)

https://www.amazon.com/How-Cook-Your...70_&dpSrc=srch

I actually have mixed feelings about Brad's two "simplifications" of Dogen (which stimulated me to write my books in part). They are a bit too dumbed down and I thinks he fluffs the explanations sometimes. It is cute how he plays with things (changing "rice and tea" to "fritos and coke" and such), but I am not sure that it makes Dogen much clearer. So, I actually don't know whether to recommend them that strongly. I would read them, but note that fact. "Don't be a Jerk" is fun and wonderful if you take it that way, but the second book "It Came from Beyond Zen" was most interesting to me because I am a Japanese translator who knew well the originals he was working with (he spends most of his commentary talking about his word choices compared to the original).

To understand Dogen, it is actually necessary to have some grounding in the basic Mahayana philosophy and other (often themselves pretty wild) works that he was using as his "standard tunes" for his playful jazz. Otherwise, it is like trying to understand Picasso's creative image of a chair without ever having seen or sat in a real chair. So, my "How to Read Dogen" threads above point to some excellent books by Taigen Dan Leighton and others that introduce that, and are very much recommended before diving into Dogen.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Thank you, Jundo!

Gassho.

SatToday


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[EricLeo]

Hi Taylor - I can recommend Rev Master Jiyu's translation of part of Shobogen zo in Zen is Eternal Life. She has a very straightforward, intuitive style.

[Jundo]

Hi Taylor - I can recommend Rev Master Jiyu's translation of part of Shobogen zo in Zen is Eternal Life. She has a very straightforward, intuitive style.

Rev. Kennett was also very much a mystic and seer of visions, so also expect that in many a commentary by her. She sought to bring the sacred and worshipful flavor of an Anglican Christian text into her translations, which she describes as follows (capitals are all hers) ...

The translation in this book is not literal for the very good
reason that, were it so, the book would lose much of its true
feeling and flavour; instead, I have tried to give the religious
fervour, with which Dogen obviously wrote, its full value. The
main teaching of the Soto Church that he brought with him was
that no words or scriptural text could adequately express the
Spirit of Buddhism and therefore those who were bound by such
words and scriptures could understand nothing of the Truth
which had been Transmitted by the Buddha Himself to His first
disciple, Makakashyo, who had, in his turn, handed it on, from
disciple to disciple, down the line of Ancestors to the present
day.

(p 91)

In much the same way, I must also caution that the Shobogenzo translation of the Order of Buddhist Contemplatives/Rev. Hubert Nearman is extremely "King James" flowery in the style of that Lineage to bring a somewhat Christian flavor to many of their texts, ceremonies and practices. I also found, in writing my books, that Rev. Nearman often took very great liberties with the Japanese original, often adding much or interpreting in ways that is simply not there.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[MyoHo]

Thank you for all the good comments so far. May I add that rev. Taigu did a few very good talks about Genjokoan. They are all on Youtube. Since it is the first Chapter of the Shobogenzo it contains a lot of what follows in the many books or essays Dogen wrote. In my opinion, Genjokoan is a very good place to start but not without some help. I think one must study it not only read it like a magazine meaning, look, read, listen and dive into all that can be found on the subject. Sit with it. Find the question to ask and search for the answers. Rev Taigu calls it "diving into the clear blue sea of the Genjokoan". Because it is deep, vast, spacious, mysterious and clear at the same time. So glad to hear Jundo is almost ready with his writings. Very mutch looking forward to that.

Gassho

MyoHo

[Eishuu]

I enjoy jumping in and reading the Shobogenzo. I do read commentaries as well but there is something about reading Dogen himself that is just wonderful, having that direct connection with him. Last year for Ango I read the first of the Nishijima/Cross translations https://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Doge...rds=shobogenzo This year I will be reading the second. I don't think you need to understand it all for it to affect you.

I also don't think there's any right place to start. See what grabs you and speaks to you. It's probably a lifetime's work anyway!

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Ryumon]

I'll second, third, and fourth the recommendation for Instructions for the Cook. It's down to earth, easy to read, and not very long. It's a lot more accessible than Fukanzazengi or Genjokoan.

Gassho,

Kirk

[Meitou]

Hi Guys,

I have actually just completed two (2) book on "How to Read Dogen" (called "Letters from Dogen"), making his style accessible to modern readers. Look for those in print in the coming months. Just finishing the manuscripts (thanks Kirk!). In the meantime, here's a big hint ...


SIT-A-LONG with JUNDO: Dogen - A Love Supreme
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...A-Love-Supreme

How to Read Dogen
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-to-Read-Dogen

I would not recomment Okumura Roshi's commentary on the "Mountains and Waters Sutra" for people very new to Dogen (I think it better to have some handle on the old guy first), but I would very much recommend his "Realizing Genjo Koan."

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DRFL1UI...ng=UTF8&btkr=1

Also, I second the Uchiyama commentaries on Tenzo Kyokun (although technically not a part of "Shobogenzo") by Uchiyama Roshi, “Instructions for the Cook” (“How to Cook Your Life: From the Zen Kitchen to Enlightenment”)

https://www.amazon.com/How-Cook-Your...70_&dpSrc=srch

I actually have mixed feelings about Brad's two "simplifications" of Dogen (which stimulated me to write my books in part). They are a bit too dumbed down and I thinks he fluffs the explanations sometimes. It is cute how he plays with things (changing "rice and tea" to "fritos and coke" and such), but I am not sure that it makes Dogen much clearer. So, I actually don't know whether to recommend them that strongly. I would read them, but note that fact. "Don't be a Jerk" is fun and wonderful if you take it that way, but the second book "It Came from Beyond Zen" was most interesting to me because I am a Japanese translator who knew well the originals he was working with (he spends most of his commentary talking about his word choices compared to the original).

To understand Dogen, it is actually necessary to have some grounding in the basic Mahayana philosophy and other (often themselves pretty wild) works that he was using as his "standard tunes" for his playful jazz. Otherwise, it is like trying to understand Picasso's creative image of a chair without ever having seen or sat in a real chair. So, my "How to Read Dogen" threads above point to some excellent books by Taigen Dan Leighton and others that introduce that, and are very much recommended before diving into Dogen.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Those two threads Jundo We don't need no drugs in this Sangha
I'm committing to Dogen for this Ango, looking forward to the trip!
Many thanks for all recommendations here.

Gassho
Meitou
satwithyoualltoday/lah

[Kokuu]

Hi all

My advice comes as a novice priest so should be taken with a pinch of salt (at least).

I agree with Eishuu that reading straight from Dogen can be a really beautiful experience, feeling the poetry in his words without too much analysis and just bathing in them. That said, it can also be a quite frustrating and confusing experience at other times!

I like Kaz Tanahashi's collection 'Moon in a Dewdrop' to start with as it contains a smallish number of the key writings. After that I would work with a commentary or two with Shohaku Okumura's 'Realizing Genjokoan' being the standout text and Brad Warner's three books related to Shobogenzo which have all been mentioned as a relatively easy read.

How to Cook Your Life is a favourite of mine too!

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Chishou]

I also remembered that reading “To meet the true dragon” by Nishijima was very useful in understanding Dogen. Nishijima basically points out that everything Dogen writes refers back to the 3 lines of Genjokoan, comparing the relative and absolute.

But still, as Kokuu said, it can be hard on the old grey matter when reading the Shobogenzo. I also found listening to someone else reading it aloud useful.

One of my favour lines from Instructions for the cook is: do wash the rice from the dirt; or dirty from the rice.

Bows,
C.
Sat


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[Horin]

Abbot Muho wrote some great shobogenzo commentary book, published in janurary 2018, but i think its yet only available in german "Futter für Pferd und Esel" i will do some research if there will be some translation in some kinda way in english.

Gassho, Ben

Stlah

[Wadavis]

Hello,
I agree with the brad warner comment. I personally found them down to earth and easy to read.
Gassho
Sat

[Jakuden]

Yes I have not read the second one yet, but "Don't Be a Jerk" was really good!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Genjun]

I am always surprised that so few people mention How to Raise an Ox by Francis Dojun Cook. It includes a few essays that really bring Dogen's approach home.

Sat today.

[Jundo]

Hello,
I agree with the brad warner comment. I personally found them down to earth and easy to read.
Gassho
Sat

Yes, I didn't mean to say that the two books ... especially the first one ... are not really good. They are.

Let's see if I just mess up Dogen more with my little attempt.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

I am always surprised that so few people mention How to Raise an Ox by Francis Dojun Cook. It includes a few essays that really bring Dogen's approach home.

Sat today.

It has been awhile since I had a look. I will do so today! (Still on summer vacation, so some time ).

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

I am always surprised that so few people mention How to Raise an Ox by Francis Dojun Cook. It includes a few essays that really bring Dogen's approach home.

Sat today.

Hi Genjun,

I want to say THANK YOU for reminding us of Prof. Cook's book. I spend a few hours this afternoon with his Introduction and short essays (first 50 pages or so) before his translations. I had not read the book since 15 years ago. It really is good. I cannot attest for the translations themselves, as I have not looked that closely. I think they are solid, if I remember correctly (they are not that widely quoted compared to Nishijima, Tanahashi and others). However, the short essays explaining Dogen's teachings on aspects of practice are excellent. So much so, that I will move the book to highly recommended for folks new to Dogen and Soto Practice on our Sangha reading list.

So good, that I am considering making it a future selection in our book club.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...REELEAF-SANGHA

I feel he had a superb understanding of Dogen and a great ability to explain the same in relatively easy to understand terms. If there is one comment on the book, it is that he touches only on selected topics about Dogen, although the most important (such as "practice enlightenment" and the ordinary as sacred). Wonderful.

Yes, for anyone interested in the "best place to start with Dogen," this is one of the best (the Taigen Dan Leighton books mentioned, and Okumura Roshi's Genjo Koan are also indispensible). Lovely.

I will also look at Cook's other book, Sounds of Valley Streams: Enlightenment in Dogen's Zen Translation of Nine Essays From Shobogenzo, to see if it is as good.

I am sorry to report that Prof. Cook passed away from this visible world in 2006.

I can also recommend enthusiastically his treatment of "Hua-Yan" (Flower Garland) Buddhism, which had such an important influence on Dogen and other Zen masters. In Hua-yan understanding, Prof. Cook has passed away yet gone no place at all.

"Hua Yen Buddhism: The Jewel Net of Indra"
https://www.amazon.com/Hua-Yen-Buddh.../dp/027102190X

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Wadavis]

When will your work be available? Where would I be able to view it? I would really enjoy that ��
Gassho, Wayne.
Sat

[Ryumon]

I am always surprised that so few people mention How to Raise an Ox by Francis Dojun Cook.

Seconded. I haven't read it in a while, but my copy is marked up with little stickers I use to highlight patty sentences. And I see that Jundo Roshi has concurred that it is an excellent book.

Like Instructions for the Cook, it is short, and is about more than just oxen.

Gasshox,

Kirk

[tlsk]

Quick update: I’m now a little over a third of the way through Realizing Genjokoan, and I couldn’t be more impressed. Truly wonderful book. Thanks for the recommendation!


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[Jundo]

Hi Genjun,

I want to say THANK YOU for reminding us of Prof. Cook's book. I spend a few hours this afternoon with his Introduction and short essays (first 50 pages or so) before his translations. I had not read the book since 15 years ago. It really is good. I cannot attest for the translations themselves, as I have not looked that closely. I think they are solid, if I remember correctly (they are not that widely quoted compared to Nishijima, Tanahashi and others). However, the short essays explaining Dogen's teachings on aspects of practice are excellent. So much so, that I will move the book to highly recommended for folks new to Dogen and Soto Practice on our Sangha reading list.

So good, that I am considering making it a future selection in our book club.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...REELEAF-SANGHA

I feel he had a superb understanding of Dogen and a great ability to explain the same in relatively easy to understand terms. If there is one comment on the book, it is that he touches only on selected topics about Dogen, although the most important (such as "practice enlightenment" and the ordinary as sacred). Wonderful.

Yes, for anyone interested in the "best place to start with Dogen," this is one of the best (the Taigen Dan Leighton books mentioned, and Okumura Roshi's Genjo Koan are also indispensible). Lovely.

So, I spent the last couple of days with Dr. Cook's other book of Shobogenzo translations, "Sounds of Valley Streams," his sequel to the above book. It also contains about 60 pages of very fine introductory essays on Dogen's teachings. I also had not read it for many years. Very good (I quibbled at one small part where I though Dr. Cook emphasized a little too much "acting without thinking," but 98.9% right on).

https://books.google.co.jp/books/abo...page&q&f=false

So, to summarize, I feel that Okumura's Genjo Koan, and the Taigen Leighton books on "Dogen and the Lotus Sutra" are the best serious introductions to Shobogenzo, Dogen's perspectives and wild writing style. (Of course, until my books are published! `Probably even after. ). But Dr. Cooks's two books would be an excellent follow-up. Read after that the two rather heavy books by Hee-Jin Kim which I mention in my "How to Read Dogen" posts above, if you really want to dive into the thicket. Read Brad's great and artful first book if you want a laugh and learn at the same time, with some modern insights. Then finish up with Okumura Roshi's masterful recent commentary on the "Mountains and Waters Sutra," which is just the finest Dogen book I have ever read, but I recommend it for folks who already know Dogen a bit. Uchiyama Roshi's "Instructions for the Cook" commentary is good for anyone at any time.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Sekiyuu]

I just wanted to second "Don't Be a Jerk" and "It Came From Beyond Zen". There is a lot of socio-linguistic context in Shobogenzo that flies over our heads because we aren't living in medieval Japan, a lot of analogies and references which the intended audience would understand but we don't. Brad also provides a tone that is very casual and relatable, reminding us to not take things too seriously.

On a similar note, among many others one of my favourite chapters of Shobogenzo is "Senjou" or "On Washing Yourself Clean" or more directly "How to use the bathroom". It's a reminder that even our most mundane moments are practice.

My favourite chapter of all is Uji, or "Being-Time", for some reason I just find it really easy to understand and it jives quite a bit with modern scientific understanding of "space-time", just like how "Mountains and Waters" makes a lot more sense to someone who understands plate tectonics though Dogen likely didn't.

_/\_
Kenny
Sat Today