Transgender ordination

[Zenmei]

In another Buddhist forum I read sometimes, someone asked whether it would be possible to ordain as a monk/nun if one is transgender. The forum leans towards the Theravada / vajrayana, and the jist of the responses were that it’s forbidden by the vinaya, but some Tibetan teachers may allow it.

Is there anything in the Zen tradition that would prevent someone from ordaining because they are transgender? Are there any openly trans priests that anyone is aware of? Just curious.

, Zenmei (sat)

[Geika]

As far as I am aware, this sangha has no issue with a trans person being ordained.

Gassho, sat today, lah

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[Jundo]

In centuries past, I just don't think that Zen folks or the surrounding society thought in such terms. One was either male or female for purposes of Ordination. It is probably still so in Japan.

In the west, it is not now a question at all in the Zen world. An Ordination is an Ordination. I feel that is best.

Gassho Jundo

SatTLah

[Mp]

In centuries past, I just don't think that Zen folks or the surrounding society thought in such terms. One was either male or female for purposes of Ordination. It is probably still so in Japan.

In the west, it is not now a question at all in the Zen world. An Ordination is an Ordination. I feel that is best.

Gassho Jundo

SatTLah

I also agree ... Zen is Zen, Ordination is Ordination. Whether male or female, we are all walking the same path. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Let me also say that, in our Zen way, the universe pours back around and makes sacred all things as just what they are.

So, in emptiness, there is no male or female or transgender.

However, this river comes around and declares that a transgender priest is precisely a transgender priest, a transgender jewel, and that is to be cherished.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Meian]

This is beautiful. Thank you, Jundo. Deep bows.

Gassho
Kim
St/lh

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[Joyo]

Let me also say that, in our Zen way, the universe pours back around and makes sacred all things as just what they are.

So, in emptiness, there is no male or female or transgender.

However, this river comes around and declares that a transgender priest is precisely a transgender priest, a transgender jewel, and that is to be cherished.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Thank you, Jundo. This is so beautiful, and it makes me happy to be part of such an open, tolerant sangha.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[lorax]

Thank you Jundo, I have a dear friend who is a transgender "jewel". She is precisely who she is at this moment. She has done more in her life that most critics could even think of, marine, park ranger, rescue specialist, and now a community activist. Few could measure up to her life.

SAT TODAY

[Anka]

Lorax,

A close friend of my is transitioning and I could never imagine going through all the hardships she has. Such a strong soul. I'm glad this Sangha's view is so open and welcoming.

James f

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[Kaisho]

As a trans person this makes me glad to hear.

Chelsea
Sat2day

[Aurkihnowe]

lord knows trans folks today in many places face hostility at best and often violent resistance in extreme cases, so a buddhist sangha would be fulfilling it's basic duty of bodhicitta to allow a safe zone for them to explore the teachings....the times they are a changing...

gassho

richard tines

sat today

[willfarmer]

I have been listening to an amazing podcast called Gendereveal. The majority of the interviewees identify as non-binary. I have been amazed at the strength of charachter these people display to be who they are in the face of criticism, especially of their sometimes fluidity in and out of various states of genderedness, as if to say this is any area of ones life that must remain fixed and unchanging.

Big Gassho to the beautiful acceptance and compassion shown by Treeleaf.

Will.

Sat today.

[lotus-of-the-mtn]

It is really relieving to read this. As a trans woman myself, it can be hard to find accepting places. Thank you all for your kindness.

Gassho
Tamber

[Mp]

It is really relieving to read this. As a trans woman myself, it can be hard to find accepting places. Thank you all for your kindness.

Gassho
Tamber

It is good to have you here Tamber. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[lotus-of-the-mtn]

It is good to have you here Tamber. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

I'm glad to be here, Shingen. I'm already being made to feel at home.

Gassho
Tamber

[Kyonin]

It is really relieving to read this. As a trans woman myself, it can be hard to find accepting places. Thank you all for your kindness.

Gassho
Tamber

Hi Tamber,

There is no such thing as gender differences here. We are all the same. We are one. That's all, really.

Glad you're here.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Jundo]

Hi Tamber,

There is no such thing as gender differences here. We are all the same. We are one. That's all, really.

Glad you're here.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

And we are all who we are, shining in our differences too. Each of us is truly unique in the universe. There is no other Tamber who writes synthwave and lofi hip hop music, sleeping in her car ... at least not for countless light years.

As long as we try to be gentle people, kind to each other, and sit Zazen together ... well, that's about it.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Onki]

Let me also say that, in our Zen way, the universe pours back around and makes sacred all things as just what they are.

So, in emptiness, there is no male or female or transgender.

However, this river comes around and declares that a transgender priest is precisely a transgender priest, a transgender jewel, and that is to be cherished.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

This is lovely, Jundo. Made me verklempt. I was questioning this of myself and if being trans was “okay.” I have read things saying that being trans and Buddhist was not really an option, especially for Ordination. It’s good to see these responses.

Gasshō,

Onki

Sat today

[Risho]

This is why Treeleaf is truly a refuge.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Daiman]

This is lovely, Jundo. Made me verklempt. I was questioning this of myself and if being trans was “okay.” I have read things saying that being trans and Buddhist was not really an option, especially for Ordination. It’s good to see these responses.

Gasshō,

Onki

Sat today

Hi Onki,

This has been an issue in some traditions that is hard to compute given the nature of the non-dual Dharma.

In the Korean tradition, the later incarnation of the Taego order came out of the necessity for ordained priests to remain priests because they were married. During Japanese rule of Korea at the time some priests were forced to marry and some chose to marry. Then when the Jogye order became the recognized order of the government, there were a displacement of married monks. So, Taego was formed and allows monks to marry. Both Jogye and Taego follow Pratimoksa vinaya of the Dharmaguptaka but the Taego order allows for bihiksu to choose if they want to be celibate. This seemed like a more liberal form of Korean Seon(Zen). But, bihiksuni female nuns must remain celibate while the males can choose. (I have heard that this was a decision by the nuns and not forced by male monastics, not sure if this is true). However, there are rules in place that those that are homosexual cannot marry nor should carry out a relationship if being ordained (The American arm of Taego has made some exceptions, I understand). Transgender folks are not allowed to ordain nor are people over the age of 55. There is also evidence of being prohibitive when it comes to those that are differently abled as well.

This order is an example of how these things are carried out in different traditions and cultures. I certainly do not agree with it, but I see that each tradition has a particular way of doing things. At Treeleaf, it is indeed a refuge because there are no restrictions like this. There is certainly a community of acceptance here and as Jundo points out whether male, female, ordained or not, we are all walking the same path. I am so glad that you are here and a part of the sangha and that you have this opportunity of ordination. I think there is a lot of evidence that Treeleaf is not stingy with the Dharma.

Gassho,

Daiman
St/LAH

[Veronica]

Every leaf in this tree of leaves is perfect. Hurray for acceptance and the reduction of pain and discrimination.
(Topic near and dear to my heart as I have gay and trans people in my family and friend group.) I sold this painting at a LGBTQ+ art show in Vancouver, and it now resides in Germany. It's called Proud Mama. Let us all be proud mamas.
Veronica
Stlah

[Shinshi]

Lovely painting (and sentiment), thank you for sharing.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Onki]

Hi Onki,

This has been an issue in some traditions that is hard to compute given the nature of the non-dual Dharma.

In the Korean tradition, the later incarnation of the Taego order came out of the necessity for ordained priests to remain priests because they were married. During Japanese rule of Korea at the time some priests were forced to marry and some chose to marry. Then when the Jogye order became the recognized order of the government, there were a displacement of married monks. So, Taego was formed and allows monks to marry. Both Jogye and Taego follow Pratimoksa vinaya of the Dharmaguptaka but the Taego order allows for bihiksu to choose if they want to be celibate. This seemed like a more liberal form of Korean Seon(Zen). But, bihiksuni female nuns must remain celibate while the males can choose. (I have heard that this was a decision by the nuns and not forced by male monastics, not sure if this is true). However, there are rules in place that those that are homosexual cannot marry nor should carry out a relationship if being ordained (The American arm of Taego has made some exceptions, I understand). Transgender folks are not allowed to ordain nor are people over the age of 55. There is also evidence of being prohibitive when it comes to those that are differently abled as well.

This order is an example of how these things are carried out in different traditions and cultures. I certainly do not agree with it, but I see that each tradition has a particular way of doing things. At Treeleaf, it is indeed a refuge because there are no restrictions like this. There is certainly a community of acceptance here and as Jundo points out whether male, female, ordained or not, we are all walking the same path. I am so glad that you are here and a part of the sangha and that you have this opportunity of ordination. I think there is a lot of evidence that Treeleaf is not stingy with the Dharma.

Gassho,

Daiman
St/LAH

Thanks Daiman

Gasshō,

Onki

Sat today

[aprapti]

hi Veronica,

what a beatiful painting! Thanks for sharing.


aprapti


sat

[Shōnin Risa Bear]

Love the painting. I am an ordained MTF. Direct messages from anyone with questions are okay.

Screen Shot 2023-01-27 at 3.04.06 PM.jpg

gassho
ds sat/lah

[Bion]

Love the painting. I am an ordained MTF. Direct messages for anyone with questions are okay.

Screen Shot 2023-01-27 at 3.04.06 PM.jpg

gassho
ds sat/lah

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Love the painting. I am an ordained MTF. Direct messages from anyone with questions are okay.

Screen Shot 2023-01-27 at 3.04.06 PM.jpg

gassho
ds sat/lah

Wonderful! We come in many changing forms, with many faces, sometimes even in the same body.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Tai Do]

This is one of the reasons I’m very proud to be part of this Sangha.
Lovely painting, Veronica.
Thank you for sharing your photos, Shonin.
Gassho,
Tai Do (Mateus)
Satlah

[Shōnin Risa Bear]

This might be relevant here: not Zen, but, hey, Japan. https://matcha-jp.com/en/9828

gassho
ds sat and some lah

[Jundo]

This might be relevant here: not Zen, but, hey, Japan. https://matcha-jp.com/en/9828

gassho
ds sat and some lah

[ZenKen]

Also not Zen, but Nishimura Kodo is an Jodo ordained monk and is genderfluid/non-binary, which comes under the trans umbrella. They are also a model and makeup artist, and their book, This Monk Wears Heels, is a wonderful memoir of their life and experiences - and also has some great makeup tips if that's of interest!

https://www.kodonishimura.com/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...nk-wears-heels

Gassho
ZenKen (Anna)
sattoday

[Shinshi]

Love the painting. I am an ordained MTF. Direct messages from anyone with questions are okay.

Screen Shot 2023-01-27 at 3.04.06 PM.jpg

gassho
ds sat/lah

Thank you for sharing, both your images and your story. Lovely.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Onki]

I’m also available to chat if anyone wants to DM me

C1651163-06E2-40B7-ADF4-E2DEBA9D938D.jpeg

Gasshō,

Onki

Sat today

[Nengei]

A lovely, wonderful painting, Veronica. Thank you for sharing it!

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

Please forgive any indication I am trying to teach anything. I am a priest in training without any qualifications for teaching Zen practice or the Dharma.

[Shōnin Risa Bear]

Onki

gassho
ds did sit

[Chikyou]

As a nonbinary person myself, I love this thread, and this Sangha. So much love and acceptance here.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Meian]

As a nonbinary person myself, I love this thread, and this Sangha. So much love and acceptance here.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

stlh

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[paulashby]

Let us celebrate the gift of compassionate community. This cannot be taken lightly or for granted.
Here in the U.S just this month 29 states have passed laws that target trans youth. It is the newest
culture war issue in Florida,the Southern states and Midwest. Anger, greed for power and ignorance
fuel these new bully them laws. Trans people are children of Buddha, of the TAO, of God, of evolution.
Gassho, peace, Paul Ashby sat lah

[Meian]

Let us celebrate the gift of compassionate community. This cannot be taken lightly or for granted.
Here in the U.S just this month 29 states have passed laws that target trans youth. It is the newest
culture war issue in Florida,the Southern states and Midwest. Anger, greed for power and ignorance
fuel these new bully them laws. Trans people are children of Buddha, of the TAO, of God, of evolution.
Gassho, peace, Paul Ashby sat lah

stlh

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[Naiko]

Let us celebrate the gift of compassionate community. This cannot be taken lightly or for granted.
Here in the U.S just this month 29 states have passed laws that target trans youth. It is the newest
culture war issue in Florida,the Southern states and Midwest. Anger, greed for power and ignorance
fuel these new bully them laws. Trans people are children of Buddha, of the TAO, of God, of evolution.
Gassho, peace, Paul Ashby sat lah

st lah

[Onkai]

This is a lovely thread. Thank you all. And a beautiful painting, Veronica.

Gassho,
Onkai
Sat lah

[Kiri]

This thread brought tears to my eyes. Such a wonderful community! I am not trans myself, but I belong to the LGBT family, and I'm so glad to see that all of you are so accepting and supporting!
Gassho, Kiri
Sat/Lah

[Jishin]

This thread brought tears to my eyes. Such a wonderful community! I am not trans myself, but I belong to the LGBT family, and I'm so glad to see that all of you are so accepting and supporting!
Gassho, Kiri
Sat/Lah

My wife belongs to a LGBT book club locally. As far as I know she is hétero.



Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Kiri]

My wife belongs to a LGBT book club locally. As far as I know she is hétero.



Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

Sat/Lah

[Gustaf Källvik]

Seon Master Seung Sahn has something interesting to say on the subject. Please do not be put off by the title! 🙏

http://www.buddhism.org/women-cannot-get-enlightenment/

🙏

/Gustaf

~ satlah ~

[ZenKen]

Seon Master Seung Sahn has something interesting to say on the subject. Please do not be put off by the title! ��

http://www.buddhism.org/women-cannot-get-enlightenment/

��

/Gustaf

~ satlah ~