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Thread: Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way, Period, End of Story

  1. #1

    Why Shikantaza is Complete, Boundless and Unlike Any Other Way, Period, End of Story

    (Here I go again, like a broken record. Some of you have heard it so many times before)

    ------------------------

    I can sometimes come across as a 'Shikantaza-fanatic,' insisting that Master Dogen's way of 'Just Sitting' is totally unlike any other flavor of Zazen or meditation, even those (such as "Silent Illumination" or "Dzogchen" meditation) it very much family resembles.The reason for such a wild claim is simply in the very nature of Shikantaza itself:

    You see, Shikantaza is to be sat with a sense that there is nothing else but Shikantaza, nothing more needed or which can be needed outside the act of sitting Shikantaza itself. Shikantaza is a ritual enactment of Buddhas sitting as Buddhas, embodying the peace and satisfaction of "nothing more to attain but this" which only Buddhas can know. It is a "non-self fulfilling prophesy" which becomes complete when we sit it with the conviction that it is complete. The mere act of sitting itself is to be known in the bones as the completion of the universe, the fruition of life. No kidding, no exaggeration. There is not one drop outside of sitting to be desired, nothing lacking, nothing more to attain. Simply sitting this sitting is whole and absolute satiation of all desires, the one action needed in all space and time in that time of sitting. It is the only place to be or where one can be in the world.

    Now, if you think that I am laying the superlatives on thick, you should hear what Master Dogen himself had to say about it: For example, as 'Ol Dogen put it in Zanmai-O-Zanmai, "To sit in the meditation posture is to transcend the deepest and most intimate teaching of the buddha ancestors. Thus, buddha ancestors practice this way without needing to do anything else. ... Sitting in this Zazen posture ... Nothing is lacking. The yellow scrolls and red rolls of all the sutras are all here. In this moment of sitting, buddha sees buddha and all beings attain buddhahood." (https://www.dailyzen.com/journal/king-of-samadhis)

    One should let the thoughts go, with the mind and body upright yet not rigid. One sits in a balanced posture, one allows the breath to take a natural rhythm. The mind should rest in equanimity. But beyond that basic form, nothing more is sought or demanded whatsoever. In sitting, one may experience various degrees of peace, clarity, stillness or concentration, and the walls of self and other may soften or sometimes fully drop away. Yet, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, none of that is necessary, nothing like that can be the goal or point at all. Such states and attainments which do arise are never the purpose of sitting, are something like 'side effects,' are never pursued at all.

    For this reason, Shikantaza is simply unlike any other form of "meditation," let alone most of our ordinary human life filled with endless needs and pursuits, where something is constantly missing or broken and something must be attained or fixed. In Shikantaza, there is nothing more that need be attained, not one flaw to fix, no question which is not fully resolved in the mere act of sitting. This sitting is just sitting that is sitting as sitting, free of any "I" that needs "something more" apart from sitting. When Master Dogen returned from China, such was the special twist which he placed upon the meditation forms which he had learned. (Thus his rejection of Zhanglu Zongze’s "Guidelines for Seated Meditation" and other popular Silent Illumination meditation manuals of the time).

    But here is the catch, the trick, the "non-method" to the madness:

    Such very freedom from further need and abandoning of pursuit is, in itself, the attainment of a most special state of peace and satisfaction which can only come from dropping all need for pursuit! It is the freedom and peace which only a Buddha can know.

    The wonder of Master Dogen's "Just Sitting" is that this very completion and radical dropping of all need to attain is, by that very fact, the key to Peace and "Seeing the Nature" which can only be realized in the very completion and radical dropping of all need to attain. Clarity will be known. Wisdom and Compassion manifests which carries off the cushion. Wonderful insights may be had, as well as crystal moments of oneness or abiding bliss. Openings, ranging from shallow to boundless, will all timelessly happen, as well as very deep states of Samadhi concentration. However none of that is, and it must not be, the point at all. There can be no other point besides sitting, and sitting is the point that sweeps in all of time and space as its own singularity.

    For this reason, any form of Zazen or meditation (even if superficially resembling aspects of Shikantaza) which aims for concentrations states, peace, bliss, clarity, feelings of oneness, Kensho (Seeing the Nature") experiences, mystical insights or anything at all --- you name it ---- cannot be Shikantaza. Period. Recently, some folks have posted various meditation instructions, books and descriptions from other traditions. They are wonderful traditions, of course. But to the extent that their emphasis or aim is on reaching any other state or experience, rather than on the wholeness of sitting itself, then such meditation is not Shikantaza Zazen. Case closed. Pack it up.

    There are descriptions around of meditations they call "shikantaza" or "just sitting," but unless there is present this radical attitude of Master Dogen, it is not "Shikantaza" or "Just Sitting" despite the name. It will lack the power of Shikantaza, No apologies for being such a fanatic for our special Soto Ways.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-30-2018 at 04:16 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    Always good to be reminded. Thank you.

    Gassho
    Doshin
    Stlah

  3. #3
    Hello all!
    Wonderful, Jundo! Nice to see everyone again.

    Gassho,
    Hotetsu

    Sat Today LAH


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Forever is so very temporary...

  4. #4
    Thank you Jundo.




    Gassho, Shinshi

    SaT-LaH

  5. #5
    Eishuu
    Guest
    Thank you Jundo. Good to be reminded

    Gassho
    Eishuu
    ST/LAH

  6. #6
    Thank you Jundo ... Whether this is the first time you saying it or the thousandth time, it is always a jewel of a teaching. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH
    RINDO SHINGEN
    倫道 真現

  7. #7

    Tairin
    Sat today
    泰林 - Tai Rin - Peaceful Woods

  8. #8
    仁道 生開 - Jindo Shokai "Open to life in a benevolent way"
    May we all grow together in our knowledge of the Dharma

  9. #9
    No apologies for being such a fanatic for our special Soto Ways.
    Can I get an amen! ;-)

    EDIT: On a more serious note, I was scanning back through Living By Vow chapter on The Heart Sutra. This passage about mushotoku jumped out at me in relation to what you're saying here, Jundo:

    ...Dogen admonishes us to be mushotoku, without expectations or income. It's very strict. Our zazen, study, work, all the activities of our daily lives are our practice. We should do them as the practice of this moment without expectation of result or reward in the future. Just put our whole energy into this moment and results or fruits will grow naturally.
    I've found this approach so refreshing and such a relief. It is so profoundly different from the constant pressure in America to be productive and strive for more more more.

    Gassho
    Last edited by Ryushi; 05-30-2018 at 02:13 AM.


    No merit. Vast emptiness; nothing holy. I don't know.

  10. #10
    Thank you for the reminder.

    Gassho




    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Thank you Jundo.

    We humans are always looking for things, to achieve, to gain.

    To me Shikantaza is to drop all searches and just sit. Pretty simple. So simple and elegant that one needs a ton of words to make people realize this.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  12. #12
    Very deep here. I'm still wondering what the difference between the phrase "just be" and shikantaza Zazen is. I am still working through the beginner videos though. About half way through at this time.

    Sat2daymaysitmore

    In Sincerity
    Shane
    In Sincerity
    Shane

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SNPII View Post
    Very deep here. I'm still wondering what the difference between the phrase "just be" and shikantaza Zazen is. I am still working through the beginner videos though. About half way through at this time.

    Sat2daymaysitmore

    In Sincerity
    Shane
    I do not want to quibble about words, but let me toss this in.

    "Just Be" seems to advise to just be totally in the moment, forgetting past and future. We allow the moment to be just what it is, sick or healthy, rainy or sunny. This is a vital aspect of Shikantaza, and what we do while sitting.

    (Of course, then we have to get up, plan for tomorrow's meeting and think about what happened with our kids yesterday. So, we "Just Be" while on the sitting cushion, but then get up and get on with life. Then we "Just Be" with planning for tomorrow, and "Just Be" with remembering about yesterday ... both what we are doing in this moment. Thus, we "Just Be Planning" and "Just Be Remembering." Each is just the moment, and the past or future, as it is. We let the rain be the rain, but may need to also plan to bring an umbrella. We let sickness be sickness and healthy just healthy, yet also remember that doctor visit yesterday and what he recommended for our sick kid. Understand? All is "just what is," and our life.)

    But Shikantaza is a little more than that too, as we sit with the conviction in the bones that there is no other place in the world that we can be, better should be, need to be or would ever want to be. Shikantaza is the one action to be doing in that moment that is needed to do in all the world to make the world right. Shikantaza is the conviction that, just by sitting Shikantaza, there is nothing lacking and nothing to fix, all made whole and complete merely by the act of sitting. There is something about such sitting that shines and transcends sickness and health, both sun and rain.

    It is a breath of fresh air in this life in which we think there are always faults to find, problems in need of fixing, places to go, things in need of doing to make life better. Very simple. By sitting, there is nothing more to make better while sitting. Then, getting up from sitting, there is still nothing more to fix or make better even as we get to work fixing and making better.

    Does that help?

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-31-2018 at 04:43 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    Thank you...

    Gassho--
    Deborah

    SatToday

  15. #15
    Thanks, Jundo!

    I looked up Zhanglu Zongze’s "Guidelines for Seated Meditation" (Zazengi). It seems like Dogen's Fukanzazengi is just an editing of this ... some of the similarities are uncanny (even including the dragon and tiger similes: "One who attains this state of enlightened mind is like a dragon that has touched the water and freely roams the sky, or a tiger whose roar echoes through the deep mountains.")

    The most interesting part is how much they differ about what to think about:

    Dogen:
    Once you have adjusted your posture, take a deep breath, inhale and exhale, rock your body right and left and settle into a steady, immobile sitting position. Think not-thinking. How do you think not-thinking? Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential art of zazen.
    (source)

    Zhanglu Zongze:
    The body should be settled and stable, so you can breathe with awareness, and tension should be released from the entire mid-section of your body. Think no thoughts of good or evil. When a thought arises – be aware of it – awareness dissolves the thought. As you keep on practicing in this way over time, thoughts are set aside and oneness is attained. This is the heart of seated meditation.
    (source)

    It makes me wonder if Dogen thought that talking too much about what your mind should be doing during zazen was actually counterproductive. The bolded text, however, reminds me a LOT of the suggestions from the beginner videos. We can't exactly dig these guys up and ask them what exactly they were getting at, so I guess it will remain an enigma. I just found it very interesting that the "thinking of not-thinking" section of Fukanzazengi is seemingly the most difficult thing for modern newcomers to figure out, probably often chalked up to how people back then may have just spoken and thought differently, and yet Dogen's predecessors (or contemporaries?) had more specific instructions that modern teachers provide.

    Gassho,
    Kenny
    Sat Today
    Last edited by Kenny; 05-31-2018 at 01:53 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Thanks, Jundo!

    I looked up Zhanglu Zongze’s "Guidelines for Seated Meditation" (Zazengi). It seems like Dogen's Fukanzazengi is just an editing of this ... some of the similarities are uncanny (even including the dragon and tiger similes: "One who attains this state of enlightened mind is like a dragon that has touched the water and freely roams the sky, or a tiger whose roar echoes through the deep mountains.")

    The most interesting part is how much they differ about what to think about:

    Dogen:
    (source)

    Zhanglu Zongze:

    (source)

    It makes me wonder if Dogen thought that talking too much about what your mind should be doing during zazen was actually counterproductive. The bolded text, however, reminds me a LOT of the suggestions from the beginner videos. We can't exactly dig these guys up and ask them what exactly they were getting at, so I guess it will remain an enigma. I just found it very interesting that the "thinking of not-thinking" section of Fukanzazengi is seemingly the most difficult thing for modern newcomers to figure out, probably often chalked up to how people back then may have just spoken and thought differently, and yet Dogen's predecessors (or contemporaries?) had more specific instructions that modern teachers provide.

    Gassho,
    Kenny
    Sat Today
    Hi Kenny,

    It is much more than a rewrite. He was obviously working from it, but then made extensive changes. Dogen borrowed the sections on the mechanics of sitting, but completely rewrote the sections on the spirit and attitude of Zazen, the purpose and spirit. The changes are fascinating. He did write quite a bit in Fukanzazengi about what to do with the mind.

    A couple of examples ...

    Zongze has an emphasis on Samadhi and the Bodhisattva Vow ...

    The Bodhisativa who studies prajna should first arouse the thought of great compassion, make the extensive vows,
    and then carefully cultivate samadhi. Vowing to save sentient beings, he should not seek liberation for himself
    alone.
    Dogen changed this to his questions on Original Enlightenment and the meaning of Practice ...

    Fundamentally speaking, the basis of the way is perfectly pervasive; how could it be contingent on practice and
    verification? The vehicle of the ancestors is naturally unrestricted; why should we expend sustained effort? Surely
    the whole being is far beyond defilement; who could believe in a method to polish it? Never is it apart from this
    very place; what is the use of a pilgrimage to practice it? And yet, if a hair's breadth of distinction exists, the gap is
    like that between heaven and earth; once the slightest like or dislike arises, all is confused and the mind is lost.
    On the mind, Zongze wrote this ...

    Once you have settled your posture and regulated your breathing, you should relax your abdomen. Do not think of
    any good or evil whatsoever. Whenever a thought occurs, be aware of it; as soon as you aware of it, it will vanish.
    If you remain for a long period forgetful of objects, you will naturally become unified.
    Dogen ...

    Once you have regulated your posture, take a breath and exhale fully. Swing to the left and right. Sitting fixedly,
    think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Nonthinking. This is the essential art of zazen. Zazen is not
    the practice of dhyana: it is just the dharma gate of ease and joy. It is the practice and verification of ultimate
    bodhi. The koan realized, baskets and cages cannot get to it.
    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17


    Washin
    sat/lah
    Wa (和) Harmony
    Shin (心) Heart-Mind

  18. #18

  19. #19
    Thank you, the broken record always ends up being a useful reminder and an interesting discussion

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH
    清 道 寂田
    SEIDO JAKUDEN
    I am a novice priest. Any resemblance my posts may have to actual teachings about the Dharma, living or dead, is purely coincidental (and just my attempt to be helpful).

  20. #20
    I just wrote this elsewhere to some folks who might confuse my statement with "Shikantaza is the best of all ways, for all people, all the time" ...

    Shikantaza is the superior, superlative, best way of Zazen, better than any other ... for me and for those for whom it is the superior, superlative, best way of Zazen, better than any other. For other people, some other way of Zen Practice, Buddhism or other religion (or no religion altogether) may by the superior, superlative, best way, better than any other. For those people, Shikantaza may be a bad way. Shikantaza is "Complete, Boundless and Unlike All Else Period End of Story" in just the same way that every mountain and grain of sand is "Complete, Boundless and Unlike All Else Period End of Story. "
    I just want to be clear on that.

    However, when we sit Shikantaza, one sits as all the universe pouring into and from every mountain and grain of sand. Understand?

    Gassho, J

    STLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  21. #21
    I do not understand. But I did just right a post months beginner's thread that may shed some light as to where I'm at?

    Sat2day

    In Sincerity
    Shane
    In Sincerity
    Shane

  22. #22
    Member Seishin's Avatar
    Join Date
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    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    Thank you for this


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart



    Sat Today / lah

  23. #23
    Jundo,

    Thank you. Expressed so clearly for me. This is why I sit.

    Gassho
    kim
    st/lh
    Each day is another chance to try again.
    "Not all those who wander are lost." (J.R.R. Tolkien)

  24. #24
    This is the reason why I love Treeleaf. A big bunch of zen nerds.

    Gassho /LAH
    Sat2day
    James

  25. #25
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Between Sea and Sky, Australia.
    Gassho Jundo

    Thankyou for sharing this path and teaching, and thankyou to all living this lifestyle and manifesting thiswisdom.


    Gassho,
    SatToday
    LaH.
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post


    You see, Shikantaza is to be sat with a sense that there is nothing else but Shikantaza, nothing more needed or which can be needed outside the act of sitting Shikantaza itself.

    Clarity will be known. Wisdom and Compassion manifests which carries off the cushion. Wonderful insights may be had, as well as crystal moments of oneness or abiding bliss. Openings, ranging from shallow to boundless, will all timelessly happen, as well as very deep states of Samadhi concentration. However none of that is, and it must not be, the point at all. There can be no other point besides sitting, and sitting is the point that sweeps in all of time and space as its own singularity.

    For this reason, any form of Zazen or meditation (even if superficially resembling aspects of Shikantaza) which aims for concentrations states, peace, bliss, clarity, feelings of oneness, Kensho (Seeing the Nature") experiences, mystical insights or anything at all --- you name it ---- cannot be Shikantaza. Period.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Thank you for sharing. This reminds me about the moment I realized this: a while ago I was surfing the web trying to figure out the meaning of the various rakusu colors. At some point I stumbled upon a website where a Roshi was shown (I forgot his name) in two pictures. In the left picture he was wearing a western style suit and in the right picture he wore the traditional priest robes. Both pictures were taken during zazen. In the description it said something along the lines of that it doesn't really matter what he wears. While making lunch that same day, it suddenly struck me like lightning: attaining enlightenment or kensho is impossible. How can we attain it if we already have Buddha nature? The whole experience made me laugh and cry, and I started to see everything, including shikantaza in a new light. There is nothing to attain because we already are. I had been chasing an expectation I didn't understand.

    When I watched your third video for newcomers about posture, breathing, and mind it made sense when you said "if your zazen isn't going the way you want it then that is your zazen that day." I'm not saying it is easy but being aware of it changed my experience.


    Gassho


    SatToday (What does LAH mean by the way?)

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Kakedashi View Post
    While making lunch that same day, it suddenly struck me like lightning: attaining enlightenment or kensho is impossible. How can we attain it if we already have Buddha nature? The whole experience made me laugh and cry, and I started to see everything, including shikantaza in a new light. There is nothing to attain because we already are. I had been chasing an expectation I didn't understand.
    Hi,

    I think Dogen had this this same question. If there is no attaining with nothing to attain then why practice. He answers this question at the very end of Genjōkōan. Practice is the expression of Buddha nature. It is nothing that we have but something that we express.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kakedashi View Post
    At some point I stumbled upon a website where a Roshi was shown (I forgot his name) in two pictures. In the left picture he was wearing a western style suit and in the right picture he wore the traditional priest robes. Both pictures were taken during zazen.
    Sounds like this just might have been my teacher, Nishijima Roshi ...



    He used to described the underrobes as a formality based on tradition, and sometimes "like dressing up like 1000 year old Chinese people" for a costume party. It is the top robe, the Kesa, that we value as a symbol and embodiment of the Zen Path.

    As to the color of the Rakusu, that really has no meaning except that some Sangha (such as San Francisco Zen Center) have decided within their own community that a certain color may mean something (e.g., brown is for teachers). That is just their rule, and really any dark and sedate off-black, brown, blue or the like is fine. For some priests in Japan, the Rakusu can be quite fancy, but that is really a kind of fashion ...



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-18-2019 at 02:09 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Hi,

    I think Dogen had this this same question. If there is no attaining with nothing to attain then why practice. He answers this question at the very end of Genjōkōan. Practice is the expression of Buddha nature. It is nothing that we have but something that we express.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Nicely said Jishin. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH
    RINDO SHINGEN
    倫道 真現

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Hi,

    I think Dogen had this this same question. If there is no attaining with nothing to attain then why practice. He answers this question at the very end of Genjōkōan. Practice is the expression of Buddha nature. It is nothing that we have but something that we express.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Thank you for mentioning Genjokoan. I really have to get back to that. Later on, the moment I described reminded me of Fukanzazengi in which Dogen speaks about practice-realization. It did not make me question the use of practice, but rather allows me to practice shikantaza without secretly hoping for something special to happen.


    Gassho


    SatToday
    Last edited by Kakedashi; 01-18-2019 at 06:05 PM.

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Sounds like this just might have been my teacher, Nishijima Roshi ...



    He used to described the underrobes as a formality based on tradition, and sometimes "like dressing up like 1000 year old Chinese people" for a costume party. It is the top robe, the Kesa, that we value as a symbol and embodiment of the Zen Path.

    As to the color of the Rakusu, that really has no meaning except that some Sangha (such as San Francisco Zen Center) have decided within their own community that a certain color may mean something (e.g., brown is for teachers). That is just their rule, and really any dark and sedate off-black, brown, blue or the like is fine. For some priests in Japan, the Rakusu can be quite fancy, but that is really a kind of fashion ...



    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Yes it is indeed Nishijima Roshi! What a wonderful coincidence. Thank you for the information on the Rakusku: I did not know this. What does LaH or Lah mean?


    Gassho


    SatToday

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kakedashi View Post
    Yes it is indeed Nishijima Roshi! What a wonderful coincidence. Thank you for the information on the Rakusku: I did not know this. What does LaH or Lah mean?


    Gassho


    SatToday
    Kakedashi,

    Here is a link to the information on LAH.


    https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...0&share_type=t

    Gassho,

    Shoka
    Sattoday

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
    香道 笑花
    Kodo Shoka

    Please don't take anything I say as anything more than just a normal person's thoughts on the topic. I'm just stumbling through life trying to be helpful, but really don't know much.

  33. #33
    Member Geika's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    San Diego County, California
    Nishijima Roshi was just my style! Respect for the kesa as well as straight-forward practicality. I feel if I were ever to become a priest I would aspire to his way: a modern, professional and approachable outfit with the rakusu or kesa, and of course the full set when appropriate. I have a lot of respect for him and they way he taught you and your Dharma brothers and sisters (if there were sisters*), Jundo.

    Sat today, lah

    *Are there any current modern female teachers or priests who were taught by Nishijima Roshi?
    迎 Geika

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Shoka View Post
    Kakedashi,

    Here is a link to the information on LAH.


    https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...0&share_type=t

    Gassho,

    Shoka
    Sattoday

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
    Thank you

    Gassho

    SatToday/LAH

  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    But Shikantaza is a little more than that too, as we sit with the conviction in the bones that there is no other place in the world that we can be, better should be, need to be or would ever want to be. Shikantaza is the one action to be doing in that moment that is needed to do in all the world to make the world right. Shikantaza is the conviction that, just by sitting Shikantaza, there is nothing lacking and nothing to fix, all made whole and complete merely by the act of sitting. There is something about such sitting that shines and transcends sickness and health, both sun and rain.
    In reading these lovely posts about Shikantaza I am reminded of the comfort of sitting quietly in the early morning, simply being, with a warm mug of coffee. Listening to the silence, maybe still feeling the tug of sleep, fully at peace in that moment. At that moment there truly is no place better to be, to need to be, or to want to be.

    My brain wants to ask: Is Shikantaza a state of being to aspire to, to attain? But there is nothing to attain, right? So then I may spend the rest of my life sitting not-quite Shikantaza or way-off Shikantaza, trying not to wonder if I have gotten it because then I don't have it...

    Gassho,
    然芸 Nengei
    Sat today.

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