Kapleau's "Three Pillars" & personalities of experience

[sjlabat]

I’ve been reading Kapleau’s classic introduction to Zen “Three Pillars.”
Kapleau, following the Harada-Yasutani tradition of koan introspection places, I think I can fairly say, huge emphasis on triggering a “kensho” experience, often described in rather dramatic terms, as an essential to spiritual development. Frankly, I found this – and some of the methods in ‘triggering’ kensho- disturbing and absolutely rife for abuse (ok, this book dates to the mid-1960s when issues of abuse were not as openly discussed as they -fortunately-are today). For example, dokusan secrecy (yes, there is a need for counseling confidentiality – but these are different things), special information and experiences that separate people into an elite vs. ordinary folk, use of the kyosaku, etc. As I continued reading, I warmed, somewhat to the book as Kapleau and and Bohdin Kjolhede seemed to admit that ‘kensho’ isn’t a ‘one size fits all’ and its not a magical solution of all of life’s problems – but, that said a profound experience of ‘non-duality’ what have you, can be a powerful and healing experience. I think I have had experiences like that in my life – not from a koan assigned to me (and, yes, I have studied koans in the Yasutani tradition) but rather from the koans life will inevitably assign if you live long enough.
What are your perspectives? On Kapleau’s book, and on spiritual experience – koan introspection in the Yasutani tradition vs. more ‘gradual’ approaches?
gassho,
sean
sat,lah

[Shokai]

Why do you suppose most of us are here in a Soto Zen Sangha ?

gassho, shokai

stlah

[Jundo]

I’ve been reading Kapleau’s classic introduction to Zen “Three Pillars.”
Kapleau, following the Harada-Yasutani tradition of koan introspection places, I think I can fairly say, huge emphasis on triggering a “kensho” experience, often described in rather dramatic terms, as an essential to spiritual development. Frankly, I found this – and some of the methods in ‘triggering’ kensho- disturbing and absolutely rife for abuse (ok, this book dates to the mid-1960s when issues of abuse were not as openly discussed as they -fortunately-are today). For example, dokusan secrecy (yes, there is a need for counseling confidentiality – but these are different things), special information and experiences that separate people into an elite vs. ordinary folk, use of the kyosaku, etc. As I continued reading, I warmed, somewhat to the book as Kapleau and and Bohdin Kjolhede seemed to admit that ‘kensho’ isn’t a ‘one size fits all’ and its not a magical solution of all of life’s problems – but, that said a profound experience of ‘non-duality’ what have you, can be a powerful and healing experience. I think I have had experiences like that in my life – not from a koan assigned to me (and, yes, I have studied koans in the Yasutani tradition) but rather from the koans life will inevitably assign if you live long enough.
What are your perspectives? On Kapleau’s book, and on spiritual experience – koan introspection in the Yasutani tradition vs. more ‘gradual’ approaches?
gassho,
sean
sat,lah

Hi Sean,

Openings and "ah hah" timeless moments happen, big and small. They are precious, mind expanding.

However, that book is one of the few Zen books that I actually caution about. "Three Pillars of Zen" had great influence because it was so early (one of the few books on the subject 50 years ago), but it presented a view on Zen Practice and 'Kensho' that is not usual even in Japan (not even in Rinzai Zen, in my understanding) and represents a group ... named "Sanbokyodan" ... that is tiny is Japan but has had a HUGE and disproportionate influence in the West through derived groups such as the White Plum and Diamond Sangha! It presented such an extreme, misleading "Kensho or Bust" image of Zen practice that most Zen folks (including most I know connected to the Sanbokyodan line in the West) have fortunately moved away from now (not all, however!). Read more here.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/...odan%20zen.pdf

There is another good book on the subject, a book about the culture surrounding "The Three Pillars of Zen.". Here is a review of that book, called "Zen Teaching, Zen Practice: Philip Kapleau and The Three Pillars of Zen" edited by Kenneth Kraft, a long time student of Kapleau Roshi ...

Kraft points out that Kapleau’s book is “in large measure a book about kensho” (p.14) which in itself is problematic as for many, including some of the authors of the essays, this led to “inflated expectations… [and] [t]he discrepancy between anticipatory visions of enlightenment and actual experiences of insight”. (p.15) This disjuncture between what Kapleau wrote and the actual experiences of Zen students has led to some criticisms of The Three Pillars of Zen as a book that gives an unrealistic picture of what to expect from zazen. ...

While this emphasis on and almost inevitability of kensho is, I think, a fair criticism of The Three Pillars of Zen, there is little doubt that Kapleau’s book brought many people to the study and practice of Zen Buddhism and for that we should be grateful. It is also necessary that we understand where and how Kapleau learned his Zen practice to better understand why he wrote and taught the way he did.
http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookRev...enpractice.htm

You can also read a bit more on Kapleau and Yasutani Roshis' approach at the two "One Born, Twice Born Zen" links here, a couple of threads to help people read "Zen Books". Not all "Zen" and "Buddhist" books are the same ...

Special reading - once born twice born zen (part not 1)
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...8part-not-1%29

and

Special reading - once born twice born zen (part not 2)
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...8part-not-2%29

I sometimes define "Kensho" (seeing the nature) in Soto Zen as realizing that the whole hike up the mountain is sacred and "arriving," every blade of grass and rock and mud hole, each step and sit and tumble, up down or all around, not only those moments where the horizon drops away and one can see vistas in all directions. You are the mountain, the mountain is walking you and, anyway, what mountain? They are all sacred in Dogen's Way. Because total arrival is in each step, it is instantaneous, because we keep walking the mountain it is gradual, because there is no time or destination even as we move on, it is timeless too.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mitka]

I read this book before I came here around a year ago. I thought I would meet much of the same practice here. I was all on fire to do battle with ego and my delusions and attain a great victory-enlightenment. I have a romantic streak, so you can imagine how such a practice appealed to me. I soon learned that's not the way things are done around here, and that may be part of the reason I took a year break from this place before coming back to this sangha.

Since coming back, I find Soto practice much more congruent to my personal style. Becoming enlightened seems like too much work; here I can just sit and as long as I'm sitting enlightenment may come, or it may not, but either way it is good and not a problem.

I'm just a beginner here in the Zen world, so take the following with a huge grain of salt. But perhaps it's possible that the Sanbyokodan style could be useful for general "housing cleaning" of the mind, that is cleaning out all the prejudices, judgements, beliefs and conceptions about things and especially spiritual matters that often become obstactles to our practice. But then I guess it should be followed up by shikantaza practice, which is suggested in the book, even though it's emphasis is completely on kensho experiences. I'll let more experienced people weigh in here, though, as to whether this is a useful way of thinking of things. I think this "house cleaning" probably also occurs with shikantaza practice as we learn to be more comfortable dwelling in signlessness.

I do feel that the "Kensho or bust" attitude could be especially dangerous to extremely depressed people. A story narrated in the book talks of a monk who sat with a stick of incense in one hand and a knife in the other. He told everyone that if he did not attain kensho by the time the stick of incense ran out, he would use the knife to kill himself. As the story relates, he became enlightened when he felt the pain of the burning stump of incense between his fingers.

Having experienced depression before, I think this story could influence a suggestible and extremely depressed person to desperate actions. When you are depressed you will do anything to escape the painful feelings, and I think "I will become enlightened or kill myself" is exactly the sort of thing someone who feels little reason for living might do. It doesn't help that the book later depcit the state of enlightenment in such glowing terms. It's unfortunate that the author did not focus that much on integrating kensho experiences in your life. Reading the book it is easy to get the impression that if you just struggle with your ego until you get this kensho experience, then you will be enlightened and life will be much easier for you. Admittedly the book does include cautions that kensho experiences need to be followed up with continual practice, but the laser focus on kensho experiences and lack of information on following up after such an experience somewhat bely these cautions.

Gassho,
Matthew
Sat

[Jundo]

SInce coming back, I find Soto practice much more congruent to my personal style. Becoming enlightened seems like too much work;

Who says that one does not "become enlightened" around here? What would be the purpose of a Zen group without that? It is just that one can be on the mountain (can be the mountain), all the mountain walking up and down the mountain, while completely missing the mountain, looking for the mountain somewhere but here.

Intense emphasis on Kensho always strikes me as looking for the mountain by using TNT to blow a hole in the mountain. More than a "house cleaning," one is playing with dynamite. However, that is just me. I am sure it is a good way for some people.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Tairin]

Why do you suppose most of us are here in a Soto Zen Sangha ?

gassho, shokai

stlah

Yup!

I started my practice at a Sanbo Kyodan centre here in town. There was Koan study there and some talk of kensho. At about the same time I bought and read both “Three Pillars” and “Zen Mind, Beginner Mind”. I read “Three Pillars” first and it nearly turned me off Zen. Then I read “Zen Mind” and felt more at home with what Suzuki was saying.

Different paths up the mountain but for me Soto Zen was much more intuitively what fit.


Tairin
Sat today and LAH

[sjlabat]

It appears my concerns about the methods Kapleau describes are shared by many here – this does not surprise me and I am glad to say that.
In the thread I used “personalities” of experience to try to avoid judgement – this is the ‘right’ kind of experience, enlightenment, salvation, vs. the ‘wrong’ kind, and if you don’t have the ‘right’ kind of enlightenment, then, man, you are just no-wheres-ville. In my view, as there are ‘extroverts’ and ‘introverts’ – not good or bad – just different. There are different styles of spiritual experience (if you want can just cross the “spiritual” part out and just leave “experience” that’s fine too). Some folk are going to be more exuberant and public in their style, some less so and more private (Soto’s general reluctance to talk about enlightenment experiences and make too much of these things tends to appeal to me as well).
Kjolhede mentions in his comment at the back of the book that westerners have no tradition of ‘enlightenment’ experiences – well, friends, that’s just not true. Kapleau’s narratives are very reminiscent of entire genres of ‘born-again’ experiences within some strands of evangelical & pentecostal Christianity (there are many other examples!). In the 19th century upstate New York (also, coincidentially I assume, the home of Kapleau’s Rochester Zen Center) was commonly called the “burnt over district” due to its frequent and convulsive waves of vivid revivalism. These revivals featured experiences similar to those Kapleau describes – seeker racked with great doubt & despair and after intense and convulsive struggle reaches a life-transforming breakthrough, how many of these experiences mellowed into sustained and lasting peace, joy, salvation, enlightenment, hard to tell or quantify… . Mormonism grew out of one such episode – Joseph Smith having a ‘revelation,’ an ‘enlightenment’ if you will at his home in upstate New York and his ‘enlightenment’ has produced, objectively, one of the fastest growing religious movements in the world. Again, Kapleau coming from upstate NY – probably just a coincidence – but one I still find very curious!
Matthew, you get pretty much right to the point about the grave concerns I have about this book. I am a pastoral counselor by trade – and my gloss notes, especially during the first half of Kapleau’s book were filled with comments like “really, really bad idea!,” “never, ever, do this!.” The hothouse methods Kapleau describes are quite dangerous, they can, and in fact have, led to terrible results – beware! Also, Matthew, I want to acknowledge your spiritual effort with depression – that in itself can be a very challenging koan – may it lead to your ongoing enlightenment and the enlightenment of many others.
gassho,
sean
sat,lah

[Mitka]

Who says that one does not "become enlightened" around here? What would be the purpose of a Zen group without that? It is just that one can be on the mountain (can be the mountain), all the mountain walking up and down the mountain, while completely missing the mountain, looking for the mountain somewhere but here.

Intense emphasis on Kensho always strikes me as looking for the mountain by using TNT to blow a hole in the mountain. More than a "house cleaning," one is playing with dynamite. However, that is just me. I am sure it is a good way for some people.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

I should clarify I meant Kapleau's vision of enlightenment. Here of course we talk about "practice is enlightenment" and that idea resonates with me a lot more than spending years in a dualistic battle with my ego. It takes the pressure off of having to "attain" something before you can really start living your life. In practice there is no need to attain, enlightenment is already here.

Also, Matthew, I want to acknowledge your spiritual effort with depression – that in itself can be a very challenging koan – may it lead to your ongoing enlightenment and the enlightenment of many others.
gassho,
sean
sat,lah

Thank you Sean for your well-wishes. I was talking about past experience of depression though, not current. My experience of depression is was set me on my current path however, so I will forever be grateful for having these experiences.

Gassho,
Matthew
Sat

[Jakuden]

It appears my concerns about the methods Kapleau describes are shared by many here – this does not surprise me and I am glad to say that.
In the thread I used “personalities” of experience to try to avoid judgement – this is the ‘right’ kind of experience, enlightenment, salvation, vs. the ‘wrong’ kind, and if you don’t have the ‘right’ kind of enlightenment, then, man, you are just no-wheres-ville. In my view, as there are ‘extroverts’ and ‘introverts’ – not good or bad – just different. There are different styles of spiritual experience (if you want can just cross the “spiritual” part out and just leave “experience” that’s fine too). Some folk are going to be more exuberant and public in their style, some less so and more private (Soto’s general reluctance to talk about enlightenment experiences and make too much of these things tends to appeal to me as well).
Kjolhede mentions in his comment at the back of the book that westerners have no tradition of ‘enlightenment’ experiences – well, friends, that’s just not true. Kapleau’s narratives are very reminiscent of entire genres of ‘born-again’ experiences within some strands of evangelical & pentecostal Christianity (there are many other examples!). In the 19th century upstate New York (also, coincidentially I assume, the home of Kapleau’s Rochester Zen Center) was commonly called the “burnt over district” due to its frequent and convulsive waves of vivid revivalism. These revivals featured experiences similar to those Kapleau describes – seeker racked with great doubt & despair and after intense and convulsive struggle reaches a life-transforming breakthrough, how many of these experiences mellowed into sustained and lasting peace, joy, salvation, enlightenment, hard to tell or quantify… . Mormonism grew out of one such episode – Joseph Smith having a ‘revelation,’ an ‘enlightenment’ if you will at his home in upstate New York and his ‘enlightenment’ has produced, objectively, one of the fastest growing religious movements in the world. Again, Kapleau coming from upstate NY – probably just a coincidence – but one I still find very curious!
Matthew, you get pretty much right to the point about the grave concerns I have about this book. I am a pastoral counselor by trade – and my gloss notes, especially during the first half of Kapleau’s book were filled with comments like “really, really bad idea!,” “never, ever, do this!.” The hothouse methods Kapleau describes are quite dangerous, they can, and in fact have, led to terrible results – beware! Also, Matthew, I want to acknowledge your spiritual effort with depression – that in itself can be a very challenging koan – may it lead to your ongoing enlightenment and the enlightenment of many others.
gassho,
sean
sat,lah

Hi Sean, some interesting things I didn't know in there, thanks! (I live in Upstate New York)

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Sekiyuu]

Thanks for all the interesting info!

There is a Kapleau lineage center very close to me, but I don't particularly want to visit it because they have a number of rules that rub me the wrong way. They require all newcomers to take a $60 introductory course (NOT a suggested donation) and after a trial membership, require you to be accepted as a full member to continue attending. I fully understand that zendos do not grow on trees (or do they?), but it just seems very unwelcoming. On top of that, they have some weird rules, like no shorts and no white socks (specifically white!). I can easily afford the fee, and I don't even own any white socks, but it just doesn't make me feel great about what they consider important. Am I being unreasonable?

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[Jundo]

Thanks for all the interesting info!

There is a Kapleau lineage center very close to me, but I don't particularly want to visit it because they have a number of rules that rub me the wrong way. They require all newcomers to take a $60 introductory course (NOT a suggested donation) and after a trial membership, require you to be accepted as a full member to continue attending. I fully understand that zendos do not grow on trees (or do they?), but it just seems very unwelcoming. On top of that, they have some weird rules, like no shorts and no white socks (specifically white!). I can easily afford the fee, and I don't even own any white socks, but it just doesn't make me feel great about what they consider important. Am I being unreasonable?

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Hi Kenny,

Well, let me speak in their defense.

Folks assume that the Zen Center does not need to pay the rent and keep the lights on. One would pay $60 these days for two tickets to the movies with pop corn and soda. It does not sound like an unreasonable amount and, I bet, they would work with someone with economic need. I think folks assume that Zen must be free, and we have no requirements or charges at Treeleaf, leaving it to peoples' hearts. We don't have the same rent, only bandwidth and time. Yet we have folks who have been around here for years and never even thought of tossing a nickle in the hat. That's not good either. There have been studies that show that people value more what they must pay for.

They might find some folks not right for the Practice, so not extend membership. As we have been discussing, the Kapleau folks often do a rather intense Zazen form, or there may be other factors. What makes you think that a Zen group should admit everyone? Bodhidharma waited for the guy to cut his arm off first (in the legend ... just a legend ). Who says they have to be welcoming?

No shorts in the Zendo is typical in most places. Not respectful. I am not sure about the color "white," but no socks in the Zendo is also traditional in Japan and most places in the West. I look the other way on hot or cold days. I once had a woman come in short shorts and a tank top (despite our own requests for dress) ... let me just say that the "Three Bows" were quite something.

Maybe you should go just for the experience!

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Seishin]

Why do you suppose most of us are here in a Soto Zen Sangha ?

gassho, shokai

stlah

Oh yes.

My introduction to Zen (and Buddhism I guess) about 20 years ago was via TPZ and ZMBM. One of the reason I stopped sitting was I experienced nothing but my expectations from TPZ that I would experience some form of Kensho, if only just a glimpse and if I didn't in this life time, I might in the next or the one after that. Being a reincarnation sceptic (as Jundo says who knows just live "good" right here right now") and sitting for a few years attaining nothing I jacked it all in.

After planning to retire and hitting a huge family crisis at the same time, I ended up in a very dark place and even after retirement that cloud didn't lift. So after a couple of years I started looking at Buddhism and Zen again. Dusted down those old books and a copy of Sediki's (?) Zen Training and Philosophy, did a bit more digging and realized that my expectations (or lack of them) was more in tune with Soto. Stumbled on this place around 2016 and the rest as they say is history.

One final observation on TPZ, is that there wasn't a great deal about general Buddhist practice and philosophy, probably why I felt such a dumb newbie signing at Treeleaf. Kensho was the be all and end all. Kensho or bust. Now I've discovered so much more through my practice and study here.

Enough said .............. end of commercial.

[Mitka]

No shorts in the Zendo is typical in most places. Not respectful.

From a practical point of view, shorts are very good for sitting in the zazen position, though, unlike many pants (especially jeans). I am usually wearing them when I sit in my daily practice.

Out of curiosity, is there a suggested dress code for the weekly zazenkai? I believe I wore shorts sittinng two-way at the "This is America" zazenkai, I wasn't aware that this was not proper.

[Jundo]

From a practical point of view, shorts are very good for sitting in the zazen position, though, unlike many pants (especially jeans). I am usually wearing them when I sit in my daily practice.

Out of curiosity, is there a suggested dress code for the weekly zazenkai? I believe I wore shorts sittinng two-way at the "This is America" zazenkai, I wasn't aware that this was not proper.

Since you are sitting at home, well, we look the other way. Be comfortable.

If one were sitting in Japan (and most places in the West) one would sit in loose fitting long pants (running pants or Hakama, a kind of Japanese skirt for men and women, similar to what you might see in Aikido) in a dark color without noticeable pattern. Socks are not worn in the Zazen hall.

Some Western Zen groups have lay sitting clothes like this, and I make that purely up to the person. Some folks find that it puts them in a sacred mood, but I really don't care so much.



It is not necessary. Nishijima Roshi let us sit in shorts in the heat of summer.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Seishin]

Since you are sitting at home, well, we look the other way. Be comfortable.

If one were sitting in Japan (and most places in the West) one would sit in loose fitting long pants (running pants or Hakama, a kind of Japanese skirt for men and women, similar to what you might see in Aikido) in a dark color without noticeable pattern. Socks are not worn in the Zazen hall.

Some Western Zen groups have lay sitting clothes like this, and I make that purely up to the person. Some folks find that it puts them in a sacred mood, but I really don't care so much.



It is not necessary. Nishijima Roshi let us sit in shorts in the heat of summer.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Jundo

I'll drag my old MA Hakama down from the loft for the 4 hours sessiosn (!) but leave the Kobujustu gear where it is. Man that was a challenge dropping into Seiza wearing one of those!

Been meaning to ask for a while but are these "jackets" above and as you wear at Zazenkai, any different from Gi tops. They look the same to me, I only asked as I threw all my old Karate clothing away as part of the clearance before moving to France. Mind you my old black Gi was a very very heavy cotton, close to Judo/Jujitsu weight but absorb a lot of impacts when competing.

[Jundo]

Been meaning to ask for a while but are these "jackets" above and as you wear at Zazenkai, any different from Gi tops. They look the same to me, I only asked as I threw all my old Karate clothing away as part of the clearance before moving to France. Mind you my old black Gi was a very very heavy cotton, close to Judo/Jujitsu weight but absorb a lot of impacts when competing.

It is a version of Samu-e, cut basically like a Karate Gi.

But, you know, since we are all sitting together in the privacy of our homes, I don't care what you wear ... and you can even come NAKED for all I care (just just the camera off please during Zazenkai. I often say that we "sit with anything, " but naked Seishin might be a bit much).

In all seriousness, every few weeks or so, we have a "casual Friday" Zazenkai here at Treeleaf, and even I show up in shorts and a Pink Floyd T-Shirt. The reason is specifically to make the point that it is not about the clothes. (The only reason I dress in formal robes for the monthly Zazenkai is out of respect for Tradition).

Gassho, J

[Seishin]

naked Seishin might be a bit much

What do they say ? Viewer discretion, most certainly in that case. I'll stick to my biker/band Ts and shorts / jogging bottoms thank you.................can't distress my dog Sophie you know.

[Sekiyuu]

Thanks, Jundo! I didn't realize that these zendo rules were common.

They might find some folks not right for the Practice, so not extend membership. As we have been discussing, the Kapleau folks often do a rather intense Zazen form, or there may be other factors. What makes you think that a Zen group should admit everyone? Bodhidharma waited for the guy to cut his arm off first (in the legend ... just a legend ). Who says they have to be welcoming?

That's a good point. As a private organization, they can make their own rules. I simply had the expectation in my mind that any kind of Buddhist organization would be as welcoming as possible (dana, right?), and other sitting groups I can find in the area (Zen or not) allow anyone to show up to regular sittings, with some basic rules and suggestions to just come early if you don't know anything about meditation.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[Ryushi]

I simply had the expectation in my mind that any kind of Buddhist organization would be as welcoming as possible

This would be my expectation as well, but perhaps that may be a particularly Western Zen way of thinking. I'm beginning to come to understand that Buddhist practice is wide and varied, in some cases very different from the specific traditions I've been exposed to.

Recently I stumbled on a Facebook group titled "Western Buddhism". A couple friends were members, so I thought I'd take a look. The rules posted were, shall we say, oddly specific and gave a less-than-welcoming impression. I can only assume the rules were built up over time and each item probably coincided with some past conflict in the group. (If you're curious, you can read a copy of the rules here.)

Any group has to be concerned to a greater or lesser degree with "orthodoxy" or maintaining a focus. I have seen this here at Treeleaf in just the five or six months I've been following the forums. Which is why we need reminders like this from time to time.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Recently I stumbled on a Facebook group titled "Western Buddhism". A couple friends were members, so I thought I'd take a look. The rules posted were, shall we say, oddly specific and gave a less-than-welcoming impression. I can only assume the rules were built up over time and each item probably coincided with some past conflict in the group. (If you're curious, you can read a copy of the rules here.)

As a participant in a couple of Zen Facebook groups, I can say that those rules are not unreasonable for the most part, and represent real issues (such as people posting on behalf of various questionable cults, like the fellow who claims to be Maitreya and Jesus come back to earth, or New Age gurus, "Fake Buddha Quotes" ... here is a wonderful site about that, not to say that some of the "fake quotes" are not nice sentiments ... )

https://fakebuddhaquotes.com/

In any case, no, Zen Teachers in China and Japan typically made folks work a little bit before letting people in. It actually has become a ritual. At any Zen monastery in Japan, they will leave the new monk-to-be waiting to enter outside the door, ignored, in this position ... for hours or a couple of days, as monks periodically come out and berate the person trying to get them to leave.



Then, before one can enter completely, one is left sitting Zazen morning to night for about a week in "Tangaryo," a special room in which they are left in the same clothes, without a bath, their few belongings in a small bag leaning against the wall. In most cases, it is just a ritual, hazing, and everyone knows the fellow is gonna be let in.
Koun Franz write more about the experience here, if anyone is interested ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post198333

At Treeleaf, I am thinking about adding this required ritual for anyone here longer than 6 months ...



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Doshin]

As a participant in a couple of Zen Facebook groups, I can say that those rules are not unreasonable for the most part, and represent real issues (such as people posting on behalf of various questionable cults, like the fellow who claims to be Maitreya and Jesus come back to earth, or New Age gurus, "Fake Buddha Quotes" ... here is a wonderful site about that, not to say that some of the "fake quotes" are not nice sentiments ... )

https://fakebuddhaquotes.com/

In any case, no, Zen Teachers in China and Japan typically made folks work a little bit before letting people in. It actually has become a ritual. At any Zen monastery in Japan, they will leave the new monk-to-be waiting to enter outside the door, ignored, in this position ... for hours or a couple of days, as monks periodically come out and berate the person trying to get them to leave.



Then, before one can enter completely, one is left sitting Zazen morning to night for about a week in "Tangaryo," a special room in which they are left in the same clothes, without a bath, their few belongings in a small bag leaning against the wall. In most cases, it is just a ritual, hazing, and everyone knows the fellow is gonna be let in.
Koun Franz write more about the experience here, if anyone is interested ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post198333

At Treeleaf, I am thinking about adding this required ritual for anyone here longer than 6 months ...



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Always thought I was tough...but count me out

Gassho
Doshin
Stlah

[Ryushi]

In any case, no, Zen Teachers in China and Japan typically made folks work a little bit before letting people in.

At least they no longer require the severing of one’s arm!

[Jundo]

At least they no longer require the severing of one’s arm!

Actually, the history of that story is quite interesting. Historians now have strong evidence that it started with a completely different Buddhist priest who, in his biography, lost an arm to robbers. The story was somehow moved to the 2nd Zen Ancestor in China, Hui'ke, and then changed from "robbers" to "sign of determination."

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...%20arm&f=false

Kind of a silly story. I guess it explains the astounded look on Bodhidharma's face as he wonders if the cell phone signal will reach to call an ambulance!



If Huike did that, he would belong in a hospital, then a mental hospital.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Seishin]

Time for you to leave Grasshopper ?

DC at his finest and maybe an early subliminal link to my seeking both Martial Arts and Zen Buddhism later in life.

Shall we refer to you as Master Po, Jundo ?

[Tai Shi]

What do you think Jundo of a little book that has colored all of my Zen experience, The Gospel According to Zen, a book which transformed my Zen Consciousness from the Age of 24, and a book I have read and reread as my first opening, a Zen experience, and a Christian Experience as in the New Testament book of Mathew and other Gospels, and Jundo I direct this question to you. I don't think Kapleau's book might have anything to do with the Christian, or Jewish traditions as explained in Isaha and Elijah the book of Mathew being the foundation for a Zen experience in my little book The Gospel According to Zen. I followed my little book with Suzuki's masterful Zen Mind, Beginner Mind, and many years of study including study of St. Francis, The Four Quartets by Eliot, and poetry of St. John of the Cross. I think the "Jesus" experience of salvation for me was preceeded by many years of Christian study including Jewish study of the masterful Man's Search for Meaning by the Jewish victim of Nazi concentration camps, Victor Frankel. I think St. Francis devoted his entire life to such studies and experiences. And, my own Christian "Ah Ha" salvation experience is preceeded with nearly three years of Shikantaza, sometimes several hours a day, and several days in a row, as well as a lifetime of study of the New Testament, and some of the Old Testament. Jundo, what do you think of a comparison of Kaplear's experience and Salvation, and Satori, and remember my Christian experience is very real, without any mind altering, very real salvation as devoted to human welfare. Early in my life I also began nearly 45 years of therpies ending with Dr. Chris Nordgrun, behavoral Christian therapist. I was saved to devote my life to God and people. What do you think of Salvation, Jundo?

Tai Shi
st/lah
Gassho

[Jundo]

Sounds good if its good for you, Tai shi.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Troy]

Yet we have folks who have been around here for years and never even thought of tossing a nickle in the hat. That's not good either.

This spoke to me. I have donated once or twice, but I could have done more. I am not rich, but I can donate a little on a reoccurring basis.


Sat2day

[Jundo]

This spoke to me. I have donated once or twice, but I could have done more. I am not rich, but I can donate a little on a reoccurring basis.


Sat2day

Thank you Troy.

Are donation page puts it this way ...

There are no charges at all for the activities and teachings provided at Treeleaf Sangha, which are each offered free to all who may benefit. No donations are solicited or required. However, if someone wishes to make a voluntary donation to our community, they may do so at the following link with our gratitude. ... [Donations are] with the understanding that people who have little or no money should know especially that it is fine to donate less than such amounts or nothing at all. If one has more money, and feels it is right, one can donate more than such amounts. All donations are completely voluntary, without obligation, according to ability, and as one feels in one’s heart. Newcomers should wait some months until making sure they feel at home in our community before even considering to donate. We leave it to each person to decide.

http://www.treeleaf.org/donations-to-treeleaf-sangha/

Never chased anyone from here for failing to toss a nickle in the bowl. People give and contribute in many different ways.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[sjlabat]

Money is always a 'sticky wicket' in religion. So many instances of corruption (really soul-wrecking stuff) when money - among other matters - is misused. Yet, very little is for 'free'. Im sure an e-sangha, e-community, is not as expensive as a 'brick and mortar' one - but, has expenses nonetheless...
gassho,
sjl
sat,lah