Prayer?

[SNPII]

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic? I don't feel I need to pray to anything and in Buddhism I don't feel Buddhist teachings promote idolatry at all. Remmberence maybe but no idolatry.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727A using Tapatalk

[Jishin]

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic? I don't feel I need to pray to anything and in Buddhism I don't feel Buddhist teachings promote idolatry at all. Remmberence maybe but no idolatry.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727A using Tapatalk

When I attach to form I cause pain. To pray or not to pray is attachment to the form of praying. Just go with it. Don’t swim upstream. Do what feels right.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[SNPII]

Very well said! I see it much clearer now! Thanks!

Sat2daymaysitmore

Shane

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727A using Tapatalk

[Jishin]

[Jundo]

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic? I don't feel I need to pray to anything and in Buddhism I don't feel Buddhist teachings promote idolatry at all. Remmberence maybe but no idolatry.

When folks come to our Zazenkai, I tell them to simply feel "Gratitude" in their hearts during our Ceremony. It is not about some wooden statue that is a work of art, or some person or spirit in the sky (unless they happen to believe in that, which is fine too), but Gratitude for everything.

However, the Buddhist meaning of "Gratitude" is a bit special ...

... Ordinary human gratitude is what we are encouraged to feel in the above exercise, and it is fine. In fact, it is wise, healthy and important. Yet there is a "Buddha's Gratitude" which is not dependent on what we "like" that momentarily pleases the selfish-self, that is not based simply on "looking out for the good side" or experiencing the "gorgeous" day. This Emptiness that is all Fullness -is- both the glass "half full" and "half empty!"

A Buddha's Gratitude is Vast and Unlimited ... a Gratitude both for that which we love and that which we may not, a Treasure beyond yet holding mere "silver linings" "brass rings" and "lumps of coal". It is a Peace and Wholeness which transcends "pro vs. con", a Beauty which sees even the ugly times as "gorgeous day". We are grateful for life, for death, for health, for sickness .. each and all as Sacred. It is a Gratitude in the face of a cancer diagnosis, Gratitude that dances all disappointments ..

SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: gratitude & Great Gratitude
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...reat-Gratitude

This is also how I "prayed" when in hospital for my cancer operation last December ... a Gratitude directed at the whole universe, to anyone or anything that may be listening, to whatever may have caused us to have the experience of being born into this strange life, a Gratitude for all of it beyond anyone or anything needing to listen or not listen too. More a big "Thank You," and a willingness to flow with events, than a prayer asking for any favors as such.

That is what I suggest.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Ryushi]

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic?

I (try to) feel the way I feel when anyone gives me unsolicited self-improvement advice, or recommends something that they feel has helped themselves in life. Say "thank you" and keep my own counsel on what to do. There's no obligation to do what they say, but generally its offered with the best of intentions.

[SNPII]

Ahhhmazing Jundo!

Gassho!!

In Sincerity
Shane

[Jundo]

I don't feel Buddhist teachings promote idolatry at all. Remmberence maybe but no idolatry.

One thing is that Buddhist and traditional Zen Teachings have much "praying to" as well, for perhaps the vast majority of Buddhist and Zen Buddhist folks. Praying to Amida Buddha, Kannon, Shakyamuni, Taira, you name it. It must be hard wired into us, and is not different in any substantial way from praying to Jesus or Mary.



Even the statues are said to be "brought to life" in Zen temples in Japan in a special ceremony turning them into, if you will, "telephones" to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. That is not my interpretation, by the way (I am more a "everything, every leaf and stone, is a telephone to Buddha, and Buddha is the phone too" kind of fellow). (This is a Korean temple, but they do a similar ceremony at Zen temples in Japan. Yes, the rope represents being connected by the "telephone line." )



http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia...ening_ceremony

I have not done such a Ceremony at Treeleaf. The leaves and stones and wooden statues and you and me are already as live as they could ever be.

Now, if you really get into the higher "theology" of all this, "outside power" is inside, "inside power" is outside, and Amida and company are just "symbols" and embodiments of something. What that "symbol" represents and embodiment encompasses, well, I leave that for you to taste on your Zafu sitting cushion.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[SNPII]

One thing is that Buddhist and traditional Zen Teachings have much "praying to" as well, for perhaps the vast majority of Buddhist and Zen Buddhist folks. Praying to Amida Buddha, Kannon, Shakyamuni, Taira, you name it. It must be hard wired into us, and is not different in any substantial way from praying to Jesus or Mary.



Even the statues are said to be "brought to life" in Zen temples in Japan in a special ceremony turning them into, if you will, "telephones" to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. That is not my interpretation, by the way (I am more a "everything, every leaf and stone, is a telephone to Buddha, and Buddha is the phone too" kind of fellow). (This is a Korean temple, but they do a similar ceremony at Zen temples in Japan. Yes, the rope represents being connected by the "telephone line." )



http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia...ening_ceremony

I have not done such a Ceremony at Treeleaf. The leaves and stones and wooden statues and you and me are already as live as they could ever be.

Now, if you really get into the higher "theology" of all this, "outside power" is inside, "inside power" is outside, and Amida and company are just "symbols" and embodiments of something. What that "symbol" represents and embodiment encompasses, well, I leave that for you to taste on your Zafu sitting cushion.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

I still feel the original teachings do not push forth the “requirement” to worship anything, but can appreciate the sentiment of respect in these so called rituals. I’ll keep on those intro videos for sure though! I just love this journey!

Sat2daygettingresdy2sitagain


In Sincerity🧘🏼*♂️
Shane

[Frank Murray]

Hello everyone,

This is an interesting topic, I was discussing this with my wife the other day when we visited a local Vietnamese temple. We were discussing if we ask something of the Buddha or are we expressing gratitude for the good things which have recently happened.

I feel that prayer may be more common in certain cultures maybe. In Vietnamese Buddhist cultures I have encountered, there appears to be a tradition of praying for what you need or would like, perhaps in line with type of prayer we may encounter in some Christian traditions?

In Japan, I found Monks of various Buddhist schools were more inclined to acknowledge gratitude (as Jundo mentioned) and hope/attract more positives into life.

Pardon my ignorance on this topic if it’s at odds to anyone else’s experiences, as I’m sure there are many possible views on this. I sense there are cultural variables at play as well potentially.

Gassho,

Frank

[Eishuu]

I also think if someone tells you to pray more then it might be their way of coping with feeling powerless, and it makes them feel better to think you are calling on the divine for help. If that's the case then I'd let them advise me and feel better. I do sometimes feel very devotional, and direct it at the universe or at Jizo or Kannon.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Daitetsu]

Hi Shane,

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic?

For me Zazen is about sitting with things as they are. It is about acceptance and letting go.
However, when people pray they often do so, because they wish things to be different.

Of course there is the kind of prayer where you show your gratitude or devotion.
Here the question arises, whom do you pray to?
I find the practice of writing a gratitude journal very humbling and fulfilling. It gets you down to earth, and you don't have to ask yourself the question whether there is a "recipient" for your prayer (if you are an Agnostic; when you are a theist, you assume there is one, of course).

Gassho,

Daitetsu

#sat2day

[SNPII]

I have done a lot of gratitude work and am actually currently working through the wholesome acts in personal meditation.

I meditate daily on say "desire and greed" with counter parts being "contentment and generosity". I let that marinate and then release.

I find that it begins to reframe my mind outside of the sitting. Which is the ultimate point I feel.

Thanks for all your comments!

Sat9hrsagowillsitagain

In Sincerity
Shane

[Kyonin]

Hi Shane,

When people tell me to pray more, I just smile. If I'm asked to join and pray (like in a funeral), I smile and do it. When they give me a blessing, I thank and smile.

Religion comes from Latin religare: to unite.

That's all

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Getchi]

What are the group thoughts on when people say "pray more" and you identify as agnostic? I don't feel I need to pray to anything and in Buddhism I don't feel Buddhist teachings promote idolatry at all. Remmberence maybe but no idolatry.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727A using Tapatalk

I'm from Australia, no one gives a sh@t.





SatToday
LaH


Geoff.

[Jishin]

IMG_0212.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[SNPII]

The image is excellent Jishin! I am also quite grateful for the Latin religion terminology!

SAT2day

In Sincerity
Shane

[Troy]

I agree with others that the person saying this maybe offering support by suggesting something that helps them. I could see how it would feel awkward or trite if not a believer. Prayer comes in many forms. Some not so different than Zazen. I find it beneficial to spend time opening my heart and mind to God in silence. “Make the two one and make the inside like the outside and the above like below” I know its not for everyone. I am just saying what works for me.


Sat2day

[Shokai]

Jishin; Where's the like button?

gassho,shokai

stlah

[Jishin]

Jishin; Where's the like button?

gassho,shokai

stlah

I don’t know if there is one. Maybe from the iPhone ?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[SNPII]

Indeed there should be a like button, but then we would be the book of faces and I already have that and look for more meaningful connection.

#likelikelike

Sat2DAY

[Ryudo]

Hi Shane,

When people tell me to pray more, I just smile. If I'm asked to join and pray (like in a funeral), I smile and do it. When they give me a blessing, I thank and smile.

Religion comes from Latin religare: to unite.

That's all

Gassho,

Kyonin

Thank you Kyonin

Ryudo/SatToday

[Frank Murray]

Religion comes from Latin religare: to unite.

Thank you Kyonin, that’s quite profound. I didn’t know that.

Common usage of the word today seems to come with a variety of loaded connotations. It’s interesting to ponder how far indeed the meaning has drifted from its origin.

Gassho

Frank


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PWoodward68]

Hello all.

Very interesting topic for an even more interesting word. I'll keep my comment short and you may do with it what you will. In the Koine Greek of the Bible, where many of us learned of "prayer", the most common usage of the word is proseuche. This word has two parts, "pros", meaning towards, intimate, or in close contact with, and euche, meaning wish, desire, or vow. So, this word, for Buddhists, could actually mean striving towards our vows, or being close to them, always feeling them intimately in our heart.

Just my two cents.

Gassho.

SAT today/LAH

Sent from my REVVLPLUS C3701A using Tapatalk

[1adam12]

Thank you to all that have contributed to this post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SNPII]

Hello all.

Very interesting topic for an even more interesting word. I'll keep my comment short and you may do with it what you will. In the Koine Greek of the Bible, where many of us learned of "prayer", the most common usage of the word is proseuche. This word has two parts, "pros", meaning towards, intimate, or in close contact with, and euche, meaning wish, desire, or vow. So, this word, for Buddhists, could actually mean striving towards our vows, or being close to them, always feeling them intimately in our heart.

Just my two cents.

Gassho.

SAT today/LAH

Sent from my REVVLPLUS C3701A using Tapatalk

Excellently put as well! This post has truly helped many!

Sat2day

In Sincerity
Shane

[Kokuu]

Hi all

For me prayers take a number of forms. One is devotional prayer which is usually directed to the historical Buddha or one of the many Mahayana Bodhisattvas such as Avalokiteshvara/Kannon or Kṣitigarbha/Jizo. This appears to be directed outwardly but I see these figures as representing internal qualities both of ourselves and others. Kannon is a figure of great compassion and by chanting to him/her I am seeking to acknowledge my own compassion and see it also reflected in others.

There are also prayers which we say to give us focus or direction. The Four Vows may be considered this type of prayer as are any verses which express an intention for us to follow a virtuous path. They are reminders to ourselves of what we want to guide our lives. Refuge Prayers fulfil a similar purpose and are directly inwardly.

Petitionary prayers to bodhisattvas are not something I do often, as that does give more of an external focus which we do not tend to use as a modern Zen sangha. However, I would forgive both myself and others for calling for help when times are particularly bad.

Anyway, that is my two cents/pence worth. As a novice priest my understanding is, however, limited and should not be taken as any kind of truth.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Meitou]

Hi all

For me prayers take a number of forms. One is devotional prayer which is usually directed to the historical Buddha or one of the many Mahayana Bodhisattvas such as Avalokiteshvara/Kannon or Kṣitigarbha/Jizo. This appears to be directed outwardly but I see these figures as representing internal qualities both of ourselves and others. Kannon is a figure of great compassion and by chanting to him/her I am seeking to acknowledge my own compassion and see it also reflected in others.

There are also prayers which we say to give us focus or direction. The Four Vows may be considered this type of prayer as are any verses which express an intention for us to follow a virtuous path. They are reminders to ourselves of what we want to guide our lives. Refuge Prayers fulfil a similar purpose and are directly inwardly.

Petitionary prayers to bodhisattvas are not something I do often, as that does give more of an external focus which we do not tend to use as a modern Zen sangha. However, I would forgive both myself and others for calling for help when times are particularly bad.

Anyway, that is my two cents/pence worth. As a novice priest my understanding is, however, limited and should not be taken as any kind of truth.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Yes to everything in this post, wonderful words, thank you Kokuu. Incidentally I've not come across a devotional prayer to Jizo, I'd be very interested in that if you have a link.

Gassho
Meitou
satwithyoualltoday/ lah

[Joyo]

Hi all

For me prayers take a number of forms. One is devotional prayer which is usually directed to the historical Buddha or one of the many Mahayana Bodhisattvas such as Avalokiteshvara/Kannon or Kṣitigarbha/Jizo. This appears to be directed outwardly but I see these figures as representing internal qualities both of ourselves and others. Kannon is a figure of great compassion and by chanting to him/her I am seeking to acknowledge my own compassion and see it also reflected in others.

There are also prayers which we say to give us focus or direction. The Four Vows may be considered this type of prayer as are any verses which express an intention for us to follow a virtuous path. They are reminders to ourselves of what we want to guide our lives. Refuge Prayers fulfil a similar purpose and are directly inwardly.

Petitionary prayers to bodhisattvas are not something I do often, as that does give more of an external focus which we do not tend to use as a modern Zen sangha. However, I would forgive both myself and others for calling for help when times are particularly bad.

Anyway, that is my two cents/pence worth. As a novice priest my understanding is, however, limited and should not be taken as any kind of truth.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thank you, Kokuu. You put into words how I still view prayer as part of my Zen path.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Oheso]

a beautiful thing I've heard about prayer came from the film "Agnus of God", in which Sister Agnus was said to be able to hear her own guardian angel singing its prayers to God.
I think one must be incredibly still for that.

gassho, O
wst.

[Tai Shi]

I am not promoting any purchase and in the beautiful poetry of my book; I hope I make it clear that I am grateful for all that has befallen me, that both the bad teaching sacrafice and realizations of love, and ugly in the sober alcoholic who commits suicide, despondency and great celabration, sacrafuce in the love of family and friends, understanding and ignorance in my meditations on gratitude. I trust this book is an epitaph of life that will live after in love of my wife and daughter, sacrafice in my great love of my best friend my wife, and this is the last poem in the book. I show my love every day, and even as we become angry and make-up, we love each other more than eany person or thing, and in this we transend death, and in my books, I live after, and in my daughter, I live after.

Tai Shi
st/lah
Gassho

[Shinshi]

Hi all

For me prayers take a number of forms. One is devotional prayer which is usually directed to the historical Buddha or one of the many Mahayana Bodhisattvas such as Avalokiteshvara/Kannon or Kṣitigarbha/Jizo. This appears to be directed outwardly but I see these figures as representing internal qualities both of ourselves and others. Kannon is a figure of great compassion and by chanting to him/her I am seeking to acknowledge my own compassion and see it also reflected in others.

There are also prayers which we say to give us focus or direction. The Four Vows may be considered this type of prayer as are any verses which express an intention for us to follow a virtuous path. They are reminders to ourselves of what we want to guide our lives. Refuge Prayers fulfil a similar purpose and are directly inwardly.

Petitionary prayers to bodhisattvas are not something I do often, as that does give more of an external focus which we do not tend to use as a modern Zen sangha. However, I would forgive both myself and others for calling for help when times are particularly bad.

Anyway, that is my two cents/pence worth. As a novice priest my understanding is, however, limited and should not be taken as any kind of truth.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

This is just so wonderfully stated. Thank you Kokuu.

There are two instances when folks talk to me about prayers and it happens pretty often (I live in Evangelical Country). One they will say something like in the original post - you should pray more. More often they will ask for prayers for someone that is injured or hurt. I used to spend time trying to explain to them my beliefs and how I viewed prayer, but eventually I came to see that I was kind of making the whole conversation about me.

I now view these interactions as being about people asking for hope or compassion. Even though we practice differently, at the core, it is about wanting the best for others. So now when someone asks for prayers I just agree and offer Metta for the person. I kind of view it as a translation issue. I translate their request in their belief system to the thing as I see analogous in mine.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

I know view these interactions as being about people asking for hope or compassion. Even though we practice differently, at the core, it is about wanting the best for others. So now when someone asks for prayers I just agree and offer Metta for the person. I kind of view it as a translation issue. I translate their request in their belief system to the thing as I see analogous in mine.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

Yes, many fine lines here that, perhaps, are of our own making.

I define Metta, for myself, as adding a few drops of kindness and good hopes into the world. Positive thoughts, words and actions can have real effect on those around us and, in this modern age, even people we communicate with on the other side of the world (just as hateful thoughts, words and acts can have real effects near and far ... as we see in the news each day).

It need not be considered a "prayer" to some force outside us (we will leave that to silence), and can be thought of as simply our aspiration for a better world for all living beings. Truly, 'inside' and 'outside' are not two, and one can effect and greatly change the other.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...Metta-PRACTICE

One need not believe in some mysterious force to it otherwise. I stand agnostic and rather skeptical about whether there is more to it than that. I leave it to others, in their hearts, as to how they wish to interpret this. Same with Tonglen ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...ractice-Circle

However, "mysterious force" or not, the fine line between "Metta" and a prayer is perhaps 6 of one, half a dozen of another.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Eishuu]

I read the initial question as someone telling someone to pray more rather than asking for prayers for themselves or others. If someone actually asks me for prayers then I'll do some prayers for them in my own way or I'll dedicate my sitting to them or send metta. If someone tells me to 'pray more' in general then I'll probably just see that as their way to cope with my situation and sit Zazen.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[SNPII]

I read the initial question as someone telling someone to pray more rather than asking for prayers for themselves or others. If someone actually asks me for prayers then I'll do some prayers for them in my own way or I'll dedicate my sitting to them or send metta. If someone tells me to 'pray more' in general then I'll probably just see that as their way to cope with my situation and sit Zazen.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

Yes! I'm relating to this one very Well! Thanks Eishuu!

Sat

In Sincerity
Shane

[Jundo]

My wife and I were volunteers at Hospice for several years. Once in awhile, one of the patients near death would ask me to pray to Jesus with them. I would, with all my heart. One time a Chinese Buddhist grandmother asked me to pray to Amida with her, and to Chant "NAMO AMITUOFO" with her. I did with all my heart.

I just remembered that.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

My wife and I were volunteers at Hospice for several years. Once in awhile, one of the patients near death would ask me to pray to Jesus with them. I would, with all my heart. One time a Chinese Buddhist grandmother asked me to pray to Amida with her, and to Chant "NAMO AMITUOFO" with her. I did with all my heart.

I just remembered that.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[sjlabat]

Shinshi, liked your comment on having to ‘translate’ the word prayer when asked or implored to pray, or pray more. Many different people may use this word - but without much clarity regarding what they mean by it. Sometimes I use the direct approach and ask ‘how do you pray?’ ‘what is prayer to you?’ Frankly, zazen is (in my view, and there are many in monotheistic traditions who would agree – some not, but that’s their right) a perfectly fine form of prayer in itself. Words like “prayer,” and “god” carry all sorts of cultural, experiential baggage – and tend to confuse as much as they clarify, at least when simply said without a deeper dialogue. Those dialogues can be hard to have considering that a lot of emotion tends to be tied up in these words as well.
Also, with ‘prayer,’ different people have different personalities, needs, points of development in life. Some very much identify with the sort of ‘self-power’ D.I.Y. ‘feel’ zazen may have, some may identify with interaction with a god or force that is beyond, outside of you and can help you. But, I don’t think either broad path – if followed with regular practice – is as simply dualistic as that. I think James L. Ford (a prof at Wake Forest, not to be confused with James Ishmael Myoun Ford) is making a like point in an article he wrote on self-power vs. other-power in Pure Land Buddhism in an article he wrote in the Japanese Journal of Religious Studies in 2002 (Jundo, if you are familiar with this article – let me know if you concur with my interpretation, I’ve only skimmed it…)
gassho,
sjl
sat,lah

[Jundo]

Frankly, zazen is (in my view, and there are many in monotheistic traditions who would agree – some not, but that’s their right) a perfectly fine form of prayer in itself.

Yes, lovely. Zazen is "prayer" too, all questions asked and answered, all thanks given. Self flows into other, other is just self. The whole world supporting the whole world.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - I don't recall the article, but I will look for it. As you probably know, in China and Vietnam (unlike Japan) Pure Land and Zen became all blended together over the centuries.

There is a wonderful essay on the "doctrinal" ways this was done centuries ago. If you are interest (it is a little Buddhist history wonky; Chappell, Pure Land Responses to Chan Critics), here are most of the pages (WARNING: FOR REAL ZEN/PURE LAND HISTORY & DOCTRINE WONKS ONLY ):

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...ritics&f=false

[Meishin]

Hello,

The wife of a friend is having surgery this morning. He asked that I pray for them. I said "of course." We did not discuss the nuances of our differing beliefs.

Gassho
Meishin
Sat Today LAH

[Shokai]

[Shinshou]

Wasn't it in the Okumura book "Living by Vow" where he described zazen as being a combination of vow and repentance? What else could sincere prayer be?

Shinshou
Sat today

[Mr_Kha]

I have a quite similar problem.
First, this is my first post/reply on this forum, so apologize if I repeat some things. I just have started.

I live in Vietnam and I visit pagodas in the city where I live. Some time ago, I went with a Vietnamese friend at an Uposatha day to a Mahayana pagoda. There I bowed to a statue of Buddha, whereas my friend started "heavily" praying. He then asked me to do the same, which I reclined. He prayed for quite "secular" things like health, more money, a payrise etc. In the pagoda are, furthermore, statues of non-Buddhist statues,mostly from Chinese Daoism.

In fact, I do not have any problem to bow or even do a prostration to Buddha. But it is not because he is my "god". I respect the historical Buddha as a human who has achieved the enlightenment, spread the dharma and founded the sangha. I reverence that. I fully understand, that Buddha might have for Vietnamese people a different appearance as for me, someone from the West. I studied Theravada Buddhism before, that might contribute to my "aversion" of Mahayana. I must confess, I still have problems with this "divine" Buddha image and this affects even my Zen studies. How should I approach this?

Thank you for reading.

Gassho,

Karsten
Sat today

[Jundo]

I have a quite similar problem.
First, this is my first post/reply on this forum, so apologize if I repeat some things. I just have started.

I live in Vietnam and I visit pagodas in the city where I live. Some time ago, I went with a Vietnamese friend at an Uposatha day to a Mahayana pagoda. There I bowed to a statue of Buddha, whereas my friend started "heavily" praying. He then asked me to do the same, which I reclined. He prayed for quite "secular" things like health, more money, a payrise etc. In the pagoda are, furthermore, statues of non-Buddhist statues,mostly from Chinese Daoism.

In fact, I do not have any problem to bow or even do a prostration to Buddha. But it is not because he is my "god". I respect the historical Buddha as a human who has achieved the enlightenment, spread the dharma and founded the sangha. I reverence that. I fully understand, that Buddha might have for Vietnamese people a different appearance as for me, someone from the West. I studied Theravada Buddhism before, that might contribute to my "aversion" of Mahayana. I must confess, I still have problems with this "divine" Buddha image and this affects even my Zen studies. How should I approach this?

Thank you for reading.

Gassho,

Karsten
Sat today

Hi Karsten,

I respect and bow in honor and humility to "buddha the man" who started the ball rolling, and "Buddha," the symbol in Mahayana for "All Reality." When folks come to our Zendo (including some Islam folks for whom I have sometimes offered to remove all the statues), I just say that they should bow "feeling gratitude for being here, alive, to whomever or whatever."

In most places in Asia, from Thailand to Tibet, Buddhism is the religion of ordinary people and Buddha (and the other figures in a temple) are their gods and saints. People pray for worldly (health, wealth and well being) and next worldly things. It is so in Theravadan countries too.

http://www.thaiworldview.com/bouddha/ceremo15.htm

It is found in Soto Zen too. As well, as Buddhism moved from culture to culture, it picked up a whole army of Indian, Tibetan, Chinese and Japanese gods and other entities to add to the pantheon. People worship them in all variety of ways. For example, someone like "Amida Buddha" in his "Pure Land" can be take as merely a symbol for Enlightenment and the "pure land" not a place, or he can be taken as a savior not too far from Jesus who will take the faithful to heaven.

That said, everything starts from Zazen. Other practices and ceremonies, take them or leave them depending on how they resonate with your heart and life. Some folks get much out of chanting ceremonies and the intricate dance, and some do not. Same with the figures: If Kannon Bodhisattva resonates as a symbol of mercy and compassion, then you will find value there. If another figure, such as the Yellow Emperor seen in many Chinese and Vietnamese temples, does not ... skip that.

(It is true, however, that sometimes we undertake certain practices BECAUSE we find them uncomfortable. This helps us overcome our human tendency to divide the world into what we like and dislike. Sometimes, in visiting a monastery, I will engage in ceremonies I really don't usually believe in for this reason).

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Anka]

Gassho Jundo

James F
Sat

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[Mr_Kha]

Thank you very much, Jundo Roshi.

You gave me some insights and I will try to adopt some of your advice.

Gassho,
Karsten
sat today/lah

[Chishou]

Sorry to highjack the thread. I had noticed an increase in the posters and bumper sticks from a church campaign called “Try paying: There is hope”. I had the idea to edit the main poster to something I could relate to.



With love and Bows,
Chishou.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

... “Try paying: There is hope”.

Same thing I tell my stingy relatives when we go out to dinner.

(Sorry, I could not help making a funny with your typo).

I believe that Zazen is our Prayer and Hope. It is our Prayer and our Hope for what is, the Prayer and Hope realized, even as we pray and hope that things would be better in this life and world too.

It is a prayer for peace, for healing, even as we simultaneously know a Peace and Wholeness beyond war and peace, sickness and health.

Who are we praying to? Just This and any ear that might listen to such wish perhaps, beyond in or out, within us and out to the whole universe and then some.

Even though there is no-self, you and I can still wish and work for a better life and world for all our selves.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Byokan]

I believe that Zazen is our Prayer and Hope. It is our Prayer and our Hope for what is, the Prayer and Hope realized, even as we pray and hope that things would be better in this life and world too.

It is a prayer for peace, for healing, even as we simultaneously know a Peace and Wholeness beyond war and peace, sickness and health.

Who are we praying to? Just This and any ear that might listen to such wish perhaps, beyond in or out, within us and out to the whole universe and then some.

Even though there is no-self, you and I can still wish and work for a better life and world for all our selves.

Jundo, deep bows. Thank you.

I am naming this the Heart of Zazen Sutra!

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Joyo]

Same thing I tell my stingy relatives when we go out to dinner.

(Sorry, I could not help making a funny with your typo).

I believe that Zazen is our Prayer and Hope. It is our Prayer and our Hope for what is, the Prayer and Hope realized, even as we pray and hope that things would be better in this life and world too.

It is a prayer for peace, for healing, even as we simultaneously know a Peace and Wholeness beyond war and peace, sickness and health.

Who are we praying to? Just This and any ear that might listen to such wish perhaps, beyond in or out, within us and out to the whole universe and then some.

Even though there is no-self, you and I can still wish and work for a better life and world for all our selves.

Gassho, J

STLah

thank you, Jundo

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah