Thoughts on Thoughts

[Shoki]

I would like to ask about thoughts that come up during zazen. When I sit thoughts inevitably come. I let them go. I do not judge them, chase them, label them. They go. They come back and they go again. I return to clarity like Jundo's metaphor on the clear blue sky always being behind the clouds. I also remember Joan Halifax Roshi's saying about the clear, non-judgmental panoramic awareness. My question is; Are thoughts worth anything or just let them go? I ask because sometimes I think I unintentionally learn from them. They seem like little flashes of manifestations of the Heart Sutra. They are empty. I do not try to get these little bits of learning or whatever they are from these thoughts but they just happen. I wonder if there is anything worthwhile to this or am I wandering away.

Gassho
Sat Today LAH
James

[Jundo]

I would like to ask about thoughts that come up during zazen. When I sit thoughts inevitably come. I let them go. I do not judge them, chase them, label them. They go. They come back and they go again. I return to clarity like Jundo's metaphor on the clear blue sky always being behind the clouds. I also remember Joan Halifax Roshi's saying about the clear, non-judgmental panoramic awareness. My question is; Are thoughts worth anything or just let them go? I ask because sometimes I think I unintentionally learn from them. They seem like little flashes of manifestations of the Heart Sutra. They are empty. I do not try to get these little bits of learning or whatever they are from these thoughts but they just happen. I wonder if there is anything worthwhile to this or am I wandering away.

Gassho
Sat Today LAH
James

Hi James,

I do not intentionally seek to think of anything during Zazen, but thoughts come and go (including, for example, thoughts of some problems in my life). I do not grab on or wallow in them during the time of Zazen, and just sit. Of course, I am human, so sometimes I find myself thinking and wallowing and lost in thought during Zazen but, when I do I put the thoughts down and return to the "open spacious awareness" of Just Sitting (or the breath, posture etc. if someone needs that anchor).

That being said, we are not without all thoughts. Dogen spoke, not of "not thinking ( fushiryô 不思量) but instead of "non-thinking" (hishiryô 非思量) or "thinking-not-thinking." In Fukanzazengi, this is often translated as "Think not-thinking. How do you think not-thinking? Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential art of zazen."

My interpretation of this is that, in Zazen, the light and blue sky of the open clarity of Zazen free of thoughts will sometimes shine through, illuminate and make translucent the "clouds" of thoughts and emotions that come to drift through our sky. Thoughts are illuminated with a certain wisdom. What seemed as solid as a dark storm cloud suddenly seems bright and permeable as lace. For example, my "big problems" don't seem like such "big problems" any more, and the Silence and Illumination of our way fills all. The problem is there, yet not quite there as before. (Or, sometimes, a puzzle I was thinking about for weeks suddenly offers some path to solution). Remember that the clouds and the open blue sky are not two, and the clouds are the sky too. The moonlight shining through the clouds is unhindered ...

I hope my image conveys the feeling.

That being said, when sitting Zazen I usually stay sitting Zazen, and don't dive back into thinking about the clouds. (I am human, I break this promise sometimes) Instead, I just let the light keep shining through the clouds, I let the clouds keep drifting out of mind, staying a bit if they will, but without my intervention. However, when I rise from the cushion, I may find that the clarity and illumination of my "problem" clouds stays with me. The storm clears, the "problem" is somehow not such a problem any more. A light still shines that I carry with me off the cushion.


Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Zenmei]

My question is; Are thoughts worth anything or just let them go?

I have a tendency to think my thoughts are so valuable that I have to follow them right now. If I don’t think about this now, I’ll lose this valuable insight forever! Of course, the valuable insight I’m holding on to is usually what I should have said in a conversation with my wife yesterday, or what I want to eat later tonight. I rarely unlock the hidden secrets of the universe. So I have to try not to attach any value to the thoughts that come up during zazen, and just let them all go.

, Zenmei (sat)

[Mp]

That being said, when sitting Zazen I usually stay sitting Zazen, and don't dive back into thinking about the clouds. (I am human, I break this promise sometimes) Instead, I just let the light keep shining through the clouds, I let the clouds keep drifting out of mind, staying a bit if they will, but without my intervention. However, when I rise from the cushion, I may find that the clarity and illumination of my "problem" clouds stays with me. The storm clears, the "problem" is somehow not such a problem any more. A light still shines that I carry with me off the cushion.

Hey James,

What Jundo says here is a lot of what happens with me if thoughts come while sitting. However, when I am sitting, I am just sitting even if the mind is busy or the wind is blowing at my door. One of the biggest things I have found when I have had to sit with a busy mind, is when I get up what I was thinking about before seems less important or intense. It is as if just allowing the thoughts to be thoughts that they fall away, become calm on their own ... all I had to do was let them be.

I have also found during sitting that something may arise that I do need to face or deal with, but again I don't do anything about it while I am practicing zazen. Lately my daughter is again having struggles and I find when I sit the feeling arise up ... so I just let them arise up. When I get up then I face them or deal with the situation that has caused these feelings in the first place.

So really the simple answer is, when sitting, just sit. When living life, just live life. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

[Eishuu]

When I experience the pull to follow a thought in Zazen, I sometimes have to remind myself that I have plenty of time to think outside of Zazen. Some thoughts feel like they have more emotional pull behind them than others. I imagine whatever understanding or learning is there in a thought for you will still be there after you sit.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH

[Shinshi]

I just let my thoughts go. Personally the thoughts that come up during Zazen are no more or less "special" than thoughts that percolate up at other times. Even if they are - if they really are little jewels - if they really are important/insightful - then they will bubble up again. I would worry that I was sifting through my thoughts during Zazen looking for those "special" ones that it would be a huge distraction.

[Shoki]

It's exactly as Jundo quoting Dogen says, I get these bits as non-thoughts. They are definitely not being thought out. I don't consider them or ruminate over them. It's just like a non-verbal, non thought, flash realization that thoughts are temporary, empty and I get this little non-thinking mini bit of the Heart Sutra without trying to get them.

Gassho
Sat Today / LAH
James

[Getchi]

I recall do gen saying the mind creates thoughts like the stomach secretes juice.

Also that we only stop thinking when we die (or not-die).


Geoff.

SatToday
LaH.

[sjlabat]

Usually, I tend to notice thoughts most in two situations - 1) something is bothering me and I have a hard time settling my mind down, 2) I've come up with an idea and I'm tempted to use my sitting to think it through - the idea's not going anywhere and I could think about it later! Besides this, sometimes during my sitting I'll notice thoughts running almost like background noise, sometimes takes a little time for me to realize that is what's happening. Often I can get that to quiet down a bit, sometimes a 'count the breath' restart can help, and, somedays, I accept my thoughts are what they are and they are going to be a bit more prominent today and I try to remind myself not to be judgmental about that and keep on with the practice.
Gassho,
Sean
sat,lah

[Tenrai]

I am finding that just sticking to my daily practice helps me let go of arising thoughts and not get led astray or to get frustrated, which I know I did years ago when my mind would drift to football scores or work problems...I almost wanted to shout at myself...."JUST STOP THINKING". These days I just sit, sometimes it feels peaceful and easy, some times my head is busy . I think I almost smile, let these thoughts do their stuff in my head then I know they will drift away.

Gassho
Richard
SAT

[Kyonin]

Hi James,

I can't speak for everyone but I have found that my mind is super creative and will throw endless streams of thoughts. Some will fight for your attention, others will just drift away. Now on this practice we don't chase or scare thoughts away, we just let them be.

That means that when thoughts come, I remind myself "I'm thinking" and let the thought go. It's interesting because this allows me to observe how thoughts arise, try to stick around and then go.

Sure, we can learn from thoughts and we can dissect them in order to understand the world... but when we sit zazen we don't hold on to them. When a thought is really important it will show itself after sitting zazen. But most of the time thoughts are just junk that may drift away.

Maybe that's my personal way of thinking-no-thinking.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Paul Nyima]

There seem to be (at least) 2 kinds of thoughts:
random, that bubble up unwanted like what you want for dinner or
why you shouldn't have said that to some one etc. These are like the gallbladder
just dripping its gall into the body, as normal as the heart beating. The point, as
mentioned, is to let them be.
And directed: when you are concentrating or contemplating on a subject or problem.
While these two can work together it is the first kind that grab hold of us and take us
into dreamland.

[Sekiyuu]

Good to hear that the random thoughts I have aren't out of the ordinary. I'm still having quite a bit of trouble thinking of "not-thinking" so I try to just think about non-rational things like how I'm sitting or how I'm breathing to ease me into it. I end up thinking of all the zillion worries I have anyways and try to just let them come and go as advised in the beginner videos. I think what I appreciate most about shikantaza or at least the Treeleaf interpretation of it is that there's no good or bad zazen. This was a hurdle for me forming a habit beforehand because I would always think "this is going well" or "I'm a complete wreck right now" while sitting and the urge to reproduce the good times made it harder to sit at all.

In the past, before focusing on shikantaza I tried a few things:

- Try to swiftly eliminate any trace of thought. This is of course pretty much impossible and you will mostly just feel bad for doing such a bad job of it. This is what people commonly think sets Zen meditation apart from other forms so that's what I tried to do.

- the huatou method of concentrating on a particular word or phrase, or a koan. Since I was thinking of words I would inevitably just think about other words... those Rinzai folks must know something I don't. Maybe if I stuck with it more I would have more to say.

- Visualize something and concentrate on it intently. This is what I did when sitting with a Tibetan Buddhist professor in college. Usually it's something chill like paddling a canoe on a still lake and timing your breath with the strokes, or doing the same with waves on a beach. This seems a lot easier to get started with since you're actually concentrating intently on something that's easy to understand.

I actually don't think this last one is bad. It makes me very curious why shikantaza is the way it is. I can think of my own theories but I'm much more interested in what people who have done shikantaza for years would say.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

[Shoki]

Kenny,
Jundo's video about 'there is no bad zazen' is a good one. I used to think sometimes, I am really bad at this. Last week was kind of stressful and I was a bit distracted. So I sat distracted and that was that. That's kind of what my original post was about; I'm really distracted by thoughts. But, they are temporary, they are not individual powers so I learn something from them.
Your other thing about shikantaza. It appealed to me because it is so bare. There is nothing to grab on to. I don't know too much about other forms of meditation but they all sound like you have to grab on to a thing.

Gassho
Sat Today LAH
James

[Jundo]

I actually don't think this last one is bad. It makes me very curious why shikantaza is the way it is. I can think of my own theories but I'm much more interested in what people who have done shikantaza for years would say.

Gassho,
Kenny
Sat Today

Learning to let circumstances be, not grab thoughts or get tangled in thoughts, not try so hard and not "force it" is very tricky. Human beings are used to trying to do things and get things done. Don't try so hard, and relax. Trees know how to just sit and be, mountains know how to just sit and be, cats know how to just sit and be ... but we only know how to chase things like cats.

I recently had the experience of teaching my little daughter to inline skate. When she fully relaxed, let things be, put the struggle down, let natural balance happen ... she just rolled.

The other aspect is to have faith that merely crossing the legs (or sitting in some other reasonably comfortable and balanced way) is the one thing to do, the one place to be in all the world in that moment. Nothing is lacking, nothing to add or take away. Sit in the energetic sense of total completion merely by sitting. If you need, focus on the breath as it exits and enters the body, but I recommend transitioning when you can to "open spacious awareness" centered on everything and no thing in particular.

There are no "bad days" because, on days when the moon is seen or even on days when the moon is unseen, the moon is still present. Just sit in the clarity that is present even on cloudy days.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Shinshou]

When I first began to sit regularly, my mind was intent on analyzing how well I was doing, then congratulating myself. I didn't pay attention. Then, I began to think all sorts of terrible things about myself, but I didn't pay attention. Then, most disturbingly, I began to think of really awful things about others, things I won't describe. When I didn't pay attention to that either (but that took a bit), my mind got truly sneaky and began to have insights, solve problems, and experience what some would call breakthroughs. I bought into it, thinking that was the goal - if sitting isn't a tool to grow, what good is it? Only after I joined Treeleaf a couple years ago and watched Jundo's talks for beginners did I realize that these insights were just another manipulation tactic. Sitting truly is good for nothing, and that's where its value lies.

Anyway, I'm convinced that there's a little giggling gnome in my mind doing his best to make me think of myself while I sit. Giggle on, gnome, I'll just keep sitting.

Shinshou
Sat today

[Alexander]

Recently, I've been finding it a little easier to let go of thoughts during zazen.

Learning to let circumstances be, not grab thoughts or get tangled in thoughts, not try so hard and not "force it" is very tricky. Human beings are used to trying to do things and get things done. Don't try so hard, and relax. Trees know how to just sit and be, mountains know how to just sit and be, cats know how to just sit and be ... but we only know how to chase things like cats.

...

The other aspect is to have faith that merely crossing the legs (or sitting in some other reasonably comfortable and balanced way) is the one thing to do, the one place to be in all the world in that moment. Nothing is lacking, nothing to add or take away. Sit in the energetic sense of total completion merely by sitting. If you need, focus on the breath as it exits and enters the body, but I recommend transitioning when you can to "open spacious awareness" centered on everything and no thing in particular.

I couldn't say it better than Jundo has. It's easier to have the sounds just be sounds, the thoughts just be thoughts, the entirety of the universe just be the entirety of the universe. Right now we exist, right now we practice.

Gassho,
Alexander
ST/LAH