are we too greedy?

[Eva]

Hi everyone,

just something I found in me the other day ..

Considering how we engage with everyday happenings mostly through the news, hearsay, forums, FB groups, friends etc . It looks like we are always at the "getting" something - getting to know, getting to see, getting to hear .. and then more, more elaborately, more in-depth, more informatively etc .
It just struck me that maybe, just maybe, we are too greedy for all the information that is available for us ? Is that much that we come engulfed by information really helpful to us ? Do we even realise when enough is enough and that we can go and sit amidst it before we become too exhausted in all that we have come to know and by all the response that stirs in us - anger maybe, frustration, suffering, pain .. Hopefully at least then we sit
I realised one day that even this innocent or rightful looking "want" - I want to understand! is a nice cover-up . Am I really clear of what I want and whats really prompting that in me ?

What are your thoughts?

Gassho,
eva
sattoday and also LAH

[Jakuden]

You are absolutely right on Eva. I don’t know that I would call it greedy, but eager for the next distraction. I felt the tears coming when reading one high school teen’s story about witnessing the shooting the other day and wanted to immediately go do something else, click on something else. Instead I closed the browser and vowed to sit with the full feeling of this when I can. It’s only right and respectful to grieve and cry rather than click away to the next distraction.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Eva]

You are absolutely right on Eva. I don’t know that I would call it greedy, but eager for the next distraction.

Thank You Jakuden,
yes a next distraction .. but from what ? From being with (my)self and taking deeper look beneath that first reaction? Funny how the habit to keep things nice is so deeply rooted. Maybe it's biological I don't know
You did great by giving yourself the time to sit with it .

Gassho,
eva
sattoday and also LAH

[Kokuu]

Hi Eva

I think you are completely right. It is much easier to engage with the world of information than the world of feelings.

There is a part of the recent assigned reading from Living By Vow which speaks to me greatly on this:

"The lessons of the four noble truths are straight forward. We spend our lives trying to fill the emptiness we feel. When we succeed we are happy and feel as if we are in heaven. When we fail we are miserable and in hell."

-- LBV p180


It has never been easier to fill that emptiness inside or patch over the hard feelings and easy too to convince ourselves that we are doing valuable work in learning. Of course, access to information is not a bad thing at all but being able to put it all down is all the more important.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jishin]

Thank You Jakuden,
yes a next distraction .. but from what ?

From death.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

[babyleaf]

Hi Eva,

It's a great observation and I felt it was a good reminder for myself as I go about the day...

I wonder if, rather than simply distraction, it's also that we want to "satisfy" ourselves? On a subtle level that we don't often notice I think we like the feeling of having reached something, anything, a finish line; not necessarily the thing we reached itself. So we find an article that produces emotions in us, then we want another article that will produce something else. I could be wrong (please someone correct me if so!) but I think this is one way the famous saying of the Buddha "Life is suffering" has been interpreted; it's not simply that life hurts, but we are conditioned to reach for one thing after another. Each time we reach something it feeds the fire of wanting.

Following your comment about this possibly being biological, I have a feeling it is, and imagine this must have been useful for ancestors pre-civilization. Life must have been a little more urgent back then with real life threats every day. It was probably helpful to survival that you go get things before it's too late. Luckily we're gifted with awareness (and many of us with generally safe environments) now and can recognize when this is useful and when it's not.

I don't think it's wrong to want something as long as we are paying attention to our reason behind it. I think a good "tell" to see if it's not worth following is whether when you pay close attention to the "want", all you see is a sort of mindless "urge".

A slight segway, but reflecting on your comment about understanding, I share your "want" to understand. I can see that understanding does good to ourselves and others, but at the same time, I feel that "urge" behind me A LOT of the time. When I can let that urge go (on good days ), I can get a glimpse that the opportunity to understand things is ever-present. Not something we have to reach for. Thank you for reminding me of this .

Gassho,
Gaby
SatToday

[Eva]

Hi Eva

I think you are completely right. It is much easier to engage with the world of information than the world of feelings.

There is a part of the recent assigned reading from Living By Vow which speaks to me greatly on this:

"The lessons of the four noble truths are straight forward. We spend our lives trying to fill the emptiness we feel. When we succeed we are happy and feel as if we are in heaven. When we fail we are miserable and in hell."

-- LBV p180


It has never been easier to fill that emptiness inside or patch over the hard feelings and easy too to convince ourselves that we are doing valuable work in learning. Of course, access to information is not a bad thing at all but being able to put it all down is all the more important.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

Thank you Kokuu,
everything you said makes very much sense . Indeed that tiny moment when you realise - I can simply put it down and it's completely "right" thing to do . And same time when feelings arise - I can be with my feelings just as they come without reaching for next and next and next etc .
Somewhere in our awareness lies perfect balance .

Gassho,
eva
isattoday and also LAH

[Eva]

From death.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

Hello Jishin,
you think you die from boredom when you see "what is" instead of emotional distraction ?

Gassho,
eva
isattoday and also LAH

[Eva]

Hi Eva,

It's a great observation and I felt it was a good reminder for myself as I go about the day...

I wonder if, rather than simply distraction, it's also that we want to "satisfy" ourselves? On a subtle level that we don't often notice I think we like the feeling of having reached something, anything, a finish line; not necessarily the thing we reached itself. So we find an article that produces emotions in us, then we want another article that will produce something else. I could be wrong (please someone correct me if so!) but I think this is one way the famous saying of the Buddha "Life is suffering" has been interpreted; it's not simply that life hurts, but we are conditioned to reach for one thing after another. Each time we reach something it feeds the fire of wanting.

Following your comment about this possibly being biological, I have a feeling it is, and imagine this must have been useful for ancestors pre-civilization. Life must have been a little more urgent back then with real life threats every day. It was probably helpful to survival that you go get things before it's too late. Luckily we're gifted with awareness (and many of us with generally safe environments) now and can recognize when this is useful and when it's not.

I don't think it's wrong to want something as long as we are paying attention to our reason behind it. I think a good "tell" to see if it's not worth following is whether when you pay close attention to the "want", all you see is a sort of mindless "urge".

A slight segway, but reflecting on your comment about understanding, I share your "want" to understand. I can see that understanding does good to ourselves and others, but at the same time, I feel that "urge" behind me A LOT of the time. When I can let that urge go (on good days ), I can get a glimpse that the opportunity to understand things is ever-present. Not something we have to reach for. Thank you for reminding me of this .

Gassho,
Gaby
SatToday

Hello Gaby,
thank you for your reply,

as I'm rather laconic with my own writing, I do appreciate more elaborate writings .
Yes, that's probably an important point to see that we want to see or feel literally that something gets accomplished, achieved, completed . That - yes, we have actually "done" something and hopefully "good" . Sometimes I even think of posting in Forum as "need" for doing something/anything that is measurable . This is one of the reasons why I often refrain from posting . But that's another topic (or not).
I also think that for the thinking mind it's natural to find solutions, to search for new ways . That's perfectly fine as long as its directed to the world of phenomena. I just think that the same habit kicks in when we actually "should" and "could" slow down a little or completely to be with what is .

I'm very happy for your input , thank you so much !
Gassho,
eva,
isattoday and also LAH

[Jishin]

Hello Jishin,
you think you die from boredom when you see "what is" instead of emotional distraction ?

Gassho,
eva
isattoday and also LAH

Hi Eva,

I think everything we do in this life has to do with avoidance of death. People stay busy to avoid addressing the great matter of birth and death.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

[Rakurei]

From death.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH

I'm a big fan of Jishin. Just wanted to vocalize that.

[Eva]

Hi Eva,

I think everything we do in this life has to do with avoidance of death. People stay busy to avoid addressing the great matter of birth and death.

hmmm, I see .
Maybe not avoiding life/death itself (how could we) but of acknowledging the matter . Yes that can be indeed a reason for that.
However I tend to think that people in this particular Forum have awareness in these questions so that it could not be accurate reason . And still sometimes we grab for "more" .

Thank you Jishin,
Gassho
eva
isattoday and also LAH

[Jakuden]

Thank You Jakuden,
yes a next distraction .. but from what ? From being with (my)self and taking deeper look beneath that first reaction? Funny how the habit to keep things nice is so deeply rooted. Maybe it's biological I don't know
You did great by giving yourself the time to sit with it .

Gassho,
eva
sattoday and also LAH

Well, I haven't sat with it yet, but I sure will tonight after I get home. Jishin is absolutely right--I pop on my phone to check for messages while I am at work, get drawn into the news, read an emotionally devastating story, then have to put it aside so I can go back to work, even though the images of dead teenagers are now flying around in my head, along with the voice of the traumatized teenage witness. Although I try to check in here often because it is my responsibility, I know that I also often turn here for the comfort of the voices of my Sangha-mates in our shared humanity.

I think Gaby is correct also in that we probably get a "hit" of some kind of brain chemical from clicking on all those stories (Dopamine?) and there are reward pathways that require more and more clicking to stimulate and satisfy. Sitting is the antidote to that addiction, IMHO. Of course, Kokuu's explanation is much less Scientific and much more Unsui-like, but I think the two explanations are Not Two

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Kyonin]

Hi Eva.

Yes, I agree. We have become too greedy for pretty much everything. We have to know more, have more, go faster, live lazier. Consumer society is based on how much we lust for stuff and how much debt we get ourselves into.

This is precisely why I find our Zen practice so important. When we sit zazen we let go of all this constant searching and thirst for achieving stuff. We sit and we look at thoughts come, fight for attention and then dissolve. They come and go like waves in the sea.

We sit with what is accepting life as it is. Then we live life... but in my experience, the more I sit, the less I need to be well.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Rakurei]

One of the main issues with social media, is that it makes people feel the need to say something, when they really don't have to.

We find ourselves having opinions on people, places and things that we normally wouldn't. Then we find ourselves making posts, status, tweets and sharing information and then becoming emotionally invested in something - namely, because we felt the need to be "active" on social media. At least this is vastly true for my generation. Or, maybe it is something we are passionate about, but we make a hairtrigger decision to retweet or share, without reading the article attached or doing our own research.

How many times do we share a post that has an article without reading it? Happens often. Click through rates and share rates never match when looking at digital marketing. lol

I wish I couuld find a link to a study, but social media/technology exposes our brain to two things that it wasn't made to do:

1) Multi-task. I currently have 16 tabs open on my internet browswer. Two of them are social media outlets, and then I have an awful habit of checking other social media apps on my phone. Our brains just weren't meant to do this, and studies have shown that multi-tasking increases the stress hormones in our body.

2) My favorite - OUR BRAINS WEREN'T MEANT TO HANDLE THIS MUCH INFO - ESPECIALLY THE BAD STUFF. Our minds were never meant to take in the thousands of sassy tweets, political arguments, and just outpouring of bad news. It's likely why we become numb to some of it after a while, our minds just can't process all this information.

What's the solution?

I don't know. I'll be sitting again today though, and logging off at 5:00pm.

ST/LAH

Rakurei

[Eva]

Hi Eva.

Yes, I agree. We have become too greedy for pretty much everything. We have to know more, have more, go faster, live lazier. Consumer society is based on how much we lust for stuff and how much debt we get ourselves into.

This is precisely why I find our Zen practice so important. When we sit zazen we let go of all this constant searching and thirst for achieving stuff. We sit and we look at thoughts come, fight for attention and then dissolve. They come and go like waves in the sea.

We sit with what is accepting life as it is. Then we live life... but in my experience, the more I sit, the less I need to be well.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

Hello Kyonin,
thank you for your response, it's lovely to read it !
Indeed, the more I sit too, the less I want/need things to be in certain way. Life simply is and it is utterly simple, if we let it . And sometimes we can live life within this simplicity and sometimes we are unaware of it and get running after "more" just like we used to, or just like "others" do . The habit (this is the word I'm most happy with now) of understanding that more is better is just so persistent .
I once said : "more" will never end in "enough" . Funny, I myself haven't got it entirely yet .

Gassho,
eva
isattoday and also LAH

[Kyonin]

2) My favorite - OUR BRAINS WEREN'T MEANT TO HANDLE THIS MUCH INFO - ESPECIALLY THE BAD STUFF. Our minds were never meant to take in the thousands of sassy tweets, political arguments, and just outpouring of bad news. It's likely why we become numb to some of it after a while, our minds just can't process all this information.

What's the solution?

I don't know. I'll be sitting again today though, and logging off at 5:00pm.

Yes! Thank you for this Rakurei. The human mind can only take so much of this data overflow. The only social network I use is Twitter but only for work. I have no Twitter in my phone. As a matter of fact, the only place in the web where I write personal stuff is here with you guys.

I also go off line about 5 PM every day and it has been one of the best things ever. So peaceful.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Eva]

What's the solution?

I don't know. I'll be sitting again today though, and logging off at 5:00pm.

ST/LAH

Rakurei

Rakurei,
that's awesome . Maybe not a solution entirely but definitely setting the limits is a very good way to deal with it .
I have Facebook and this Forum, no other social media; I refuse to read news since couple of years; so the emotional triggers have been reduced. Yet there is still room for improvement (thank you, Kokuu!!)

Gassho,
eva
isattoday and also LAH

[Rakurei]

Rakurei,
that's awesome . Maybe not a solution entirely but definitely setting the limits is a very good way to deal with it .
I have Facebook and this Forum, no other social media; I refuse to read news since couple of years; so the emotional triggers have been reduced. Yet there is still room for improvement (thank you, Kokuu!!)

Gassho,
eva
isattoday and also LAH

Hmm - I believe being informed and even engaged is still important.

I recall a seminar given by Anthony DeMello where he was speaking on non-attachment to a group of college students. He asked in what scenarios can they find non-attachment difficult, or more succinctly, he asked - what's a situation that gives you displeasure or makes you angry, and see if you can spot the attachment.

One replied, "Seeing someone on the street who is hungry." DeMello replied something along the lines of, "Okay, good! But do you act? Yes! You act! Feed them! But you can feed them without getting your blood pressure up, stressing yourself out, and poisoning yourself with anger."

I feel as if it's possible to partake in the news, life and social media - as long as you don't "bite the hook" as Pema Chodron would say. We can act, and we can do it without working ourselves up.

Isn't that the greatest irony?

We were wronged, or we are watching a situation that is immoral. So we get our blood pressure up, our heart beats fast, we put ourselves in a sour mood, we rant, we rave - but hey, wait! We're the innocent ones haha. Someone wronged us, but we punish ourselves by working ourselves up! It's unncessary and foolish. I think it's good to point out a wrong, but necessary that we do it without harming ourselves via our monkey minds, or creating a noisy mental movement of it all.

Or, the great philosopher Tyler, the Creator - who said, "How y'all getting cyber bullied - just.. log off".

(Okay that one was tongue-in-cheek - but it is indeed good to sometimes just ... log off.)

ST/LAH

-Rakurei

[Jakuden]

Hmm - I believe being informed and even engaged is still important.

I recall a seminar given by Anthony DeMello where he was speaking on non-attachment to a group of college students. He asked in what scenarios can they find non-attachment difficult, or more succinctly, he asked - what's a situation that gives you displeasure or makes you angry, and see if you can spot the attachment.

One replied, "Seeing someone on the street who is hungry." DeMello replied something along the lines of, "Okay, good! But do you act? Yes! You act! Feed them! But you can feed them without getting your blood pressure up, stressing yourself out, and poisoning yourself with anger."

I feel as if it's possible to partake in the news, life and social media - as long as you don't "bite the hook" as Pema Chodron would say. We can act, and we can do it without working ourselves up.

Isn't that the greatest irony?

We were wronged, or we are watching a situation that is immoral. So we get our blood pressure up, our heart beats fast, we put ourselves in a sour mood, we rant, we rave - but hey, wait! We're the innocent ones haha. Someone wronged us, but we punish ourselves by working ourselves up! It's unncessary and foolish. I think it's good to point out a wrong, but necessary that we do it without harming ourselves via our monkey minds, or creating a noisy mental movement of it all.

Or, the great philosopher Tyler, the Creator - who said, "How y'all getting cyber bullied - just.. log off".

(Okay that one was tongue-in-cheek - but it is indeed good to sometimes just ... log off.)

ST/LAH

-Rakurei

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Rich]

Hi everyone,

just something I found in me the other day ..

Considering how we engage with everyday happenings mostly through the news, hearsay, forums, FB groups, friends etc . It looks like we are always at the "getting" something - getting to know, getting to see, getting to hear .. and then more, more elaborately, more in-depth, more informatively etc .
It just struck me that maybe, just maybe, we are too greedy for all the information that is available for us ? Is that much that we come engulfed by information really helpful to us ? Do we even realise when enough is enough and that we can go and sit amidst it before we become too exhausted in all that we have come to know and by all the response that stirs in us - anger maybe, frustration, suffering, pain .. Hopefully at least then we sit
I realised one day that even this innocent or rightful looking "want" - I want to understand! is a nice cover-up . Am I really clear of what I want and whats really prompting that in me ?

What are your thoughts?

Gassho,
eva
sattoday and also LAH

I think I'll go for a short bike ride and when I get back just sit and enjoy the silence or whatever appears

SAT


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Jakuden]

I think I'll go for a short bike ride and when I get back just sit and enjoy the silence or whatever appears

SAT


Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Geika]

First of all, are we talking about greed or addiction? Because reading through this the problem seems to be addiction to new and exciting information, not a greed for it. Comparing the thirst for knowledge to consumerism is a stretch.

The definition of "greed" is: intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food. The definition of "addiction" is: the fact or condition of being addicted to a particular substance, thing, or activity.

The Middle Way might help. Everyone has a personal threshold between, "I would like to know more," and "I have exhausted and/ or depressed myself with too much news and information, and I have now wasted time."

I have often become intensely engrossed in something that I would like to learn more about, looking a the clock to discover that I have lost hours with several Wikipedia tabs open! But I have never considered these actions greedy or wasteful unless perhaps I am putting off something important, but that is rarely the case. I don't think it is constructive to look at these times as potentially "greedy." I enjoy the flow state of being immersed in something I find engaging. Access to whatever I might like to learn has greatly improved my life in the long run, even if perhaps I became sidetracked with things I didn't necessarily hold on to along the way. I never would have found Treeleaf if this was not in my nature.

If someone is spending too much time on these things at the cost of a healthy lifestyle, that is a matter of addiction, not greed.

Given that we are in the particular group that we are, most of us here seem to be pretty engaged on an informational level with what is going on in the world. Most people I know in my daily life simply aren't that interested in learning much of anything. So this is not an issue I see in real life, unless we are talking about social media addiction, which is rampant. Most people I know tend to reference their personal belief system (religious, educational, memories, assumptions, etc.) instead of facts that can be easily referenced with a simple Google search. I think it's a shame when everyone around me is arguing about who was in a particular movie while they are ALL HOLDING SMART PHONES.

So what I am seeing as the real life issue here is an addiction to distraction-- not a greed for knowledge. In fact, I WISH more people were greedy for knowledge.

Too much reading, watching, doing, and not enough being: maybe not so good.

Reading, watching, and doing in themselves: maybe not so bad.

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Joyo]

Hi Eva.

Yes, I agree. We have become too greedy for pretty much everything. We have to know more, have more, go faster, live lazier. Consumer society is based on how much we lust for stuff and how much debt we get ourselves into.

This is precisely why I find our Zen practice so important. When we sit zazen we let go of all this constant searching and thirst for achieving stuff. We sit and we look at thoughts come, fight for attention and then dissolve. They come and go like waves in the sea.

We sit with what is accepting life as it is. Then we live life... but in my experience, the more I sit, the less I need to be well.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

Thank you for sharing, Kyonin.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Jundo]

The internet is a tool, gathering information on world events is education. But any tool can be used too much.

There is a time to share online, a time to turn the computer and phone off. There is a time to read the news, a time to put the news down. There is a time to think, a time to feel, a time to sit in silence.

There is a time to sit in silence, a time to get up and do something about a problem.

All in balance, all in its time. Nothing in excess, the Middle Way.

I do agree with Jishin that much of our human life, gathering mates and material goods, is about seeking to avoid death. Yes, the rocks and mountains don't worry about it, but people try to avoid their mortality. An aspect of our Zen Practice is to remind ourselves of the Wisdom of stones and mountains.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Eishuu]

I agree with Geika that addiction is part of this. In fact, social media sites were designed to be addictive. I read an interesting article about how a lot of the original designers of these sites who are now speaking out about them. I think it was this one https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...alley-dystopia

I do think that the addictive nature of them and maybe of the proliferation of information itself can stir up craving. I try to limit my use of the internet to a few sites and important news issues, but even then sometimes I notice that there is a craving for stimulation.

For me it's to do with intention - if I am able to engage with the internet because I am looking up a certain topic or learning about something then that feels more healthy than using it compulsively or because I am restless. I am trying to put it aside a bit more and read books or do something creative.

Gassho
Eishuu
ST/LAH