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Thread: Koans

  1. #1

    Koans

    Hi,

    Some people have a fascination with Koans. They are interesting and there is a lot to learn from them. That said they are also a big waste of time. The best answer to most of them is not to make a Koan where there is none. If you don't pick up a Koan then it is not yours to solve. Just chop wood and fetch water for the benefit of others.

    That said, the introductory Koans have to do with mostly the relative and the absolute. The answer to these is pretty standard. Examples are the Mu Koan, the Red Beard Koan, One Hand clapping Koan, etc. These are relative Koans that ask for an absolute answer. Absolute is a basic teaching in Buddhism. Buddha Nature vs Dog (relative), answer is... The list goes on and on about examples of Koans like this. The more complicated Koans have to do Morality after the relative vs absolute are understood. Here things get dicey because morality is a thing that is individual so the answers have to do with the individual and the answers are not so standard. Morality has probably something to do with the Middle Ways, somewhere between the relative and absolute.

    I see Soto as side steeping the issue of working with Koans as the very fact of working with Koans causes the relative. Using the mind to catch the mind. It just cannot be done.

    I think that in Soto the relative and the absolute are always being manifested in front, past and future, right here and right now. No place to go but now which includes everything, Koans and no Koans. The Koan of life.

    I see there role of the teacher, be it in Soto or Rinzai as making sure the student does not stray too far from the middle way, especially with absolutes. Absolutes can be a dangerous place without a healthy dose of morality provided by the teacher, the Sangha, the Precepts, etc.

    In Shikantaza the issue of absolute vs relative is mute because it is all inclusive, beyond the relative and absolute. Dogen saw this and was fond of this method.

    These are my wasted 2 cents on Koans.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST

    PS: A Zenny is someone who likes to play with the relative and the absolute because its just plain fun. Maybe this is why there are so many excentric zen students.
    Last edited by Jishin; 01-09-2018 at 01:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Hi,

    Some people have a fascination with Koans. They are interesting and there is a lot to learn from them. That said they are also a big waste of time. The best answer to most of them is not to make a Koan where there is none. If you don't pick up a Koan then it is not yours to solve. Just chop wood and fetch water for the benefit of others.
    That sounds like a Koan to me.

    That said, the introductory Koans have to do with mostly the relative and the absolute. The answer to these is pretty standard. Examples are the Mu Koan, the Red Beard Koan, One Hand clapping Koan, etc. These are relative Koans that ask for an absolute answer. Absolute is a basic teaching in Buddhism. Buddha Nature vs Dog (relative), answer is... The list goes on and on about examples of Koans like this. The more complicated Koans have to do Morality after the relative vs absolute are understood. Here things get dicey because morality is a thing that is individual so the answers have to do with the individual and the answers are not so standard. Morality has probably something to do with the Middle Ways, somewhere between the relative and absolute.
    The Buddha taught about the Triśikṣā, which are the three kinds of learning required for awakening. The first of these, śīla, is moral conduct. Can moral conduct really be individual? Does our conduct not affect others? Not existing in a vacuum, but rather inter-being with others, I don't believe this is the case.


    I see Soto as side steeping the issue of working with Koans as the very fact of working with Koans causes the relative. Using the mind to catch the mind. It just cannot be done.
    Dōgen's Shinji Shōbōgenzō is full of Koans. Dogen even had his own collection of 300 Koans. Can you explain what you mean?

    I think that in Soto the relative and the absolute are always being manifested in front, past and future, right here and right now. No place to go but now which includes everything, Koans and no Koans. The Koan of life.

    I see there role of the teacher, be it in Soto or Rinzai as making sure the student does not stray too far from the middle way, especially with absolutes. Absolutes can be a dangerous place without a healthy dose of morality provided by the teacher, the Sangha, the Precepts, etc.

    In Shikantaza the issue of absolute vs relative is mute because it is all inclusive, beyond the relative and absolute. Dogen saw this and was fond of this method.

    These are my wasted 2 cents on Koans.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST

    PS: A Zenny is someone who likes to play with the relative and the absolute because its just plain fun. Maybe this is why there are so many excentric zen students.
    There's a great section in"Dropping Ashes on the Buddha" by Zen Master Seung Sahn on this (different Zen tradition, but valuable teaching):

    Screen Shot 2018-01-09 at 9.58.07 AM.jpg

  3. #3

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    No!


    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

  5. #5
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    I have come to prefer our Sōtō way of allowing the rain of everyday sitting to soak through our skin until it fills us
    I was never much for koan practice, I prefer just being present with lofe just as it is. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

  6. #6
    Koans, the way they were originally developed (before Dahui made them an object for concentration on a phrase during Zazen in the Rinzai way) and the way Dogen and others use them in our Soto Way, are basically teaching tools. There is a logic to them, but just not our normal "common sense" logic (which is the often incomplete). Most of the Koans "make sense" in Buddhist and Mahayana terms, and contain our perspectives. Koans can be explained, and were not developed merely as absurd and totally senseless stories.

    For an excellent introduction to Koans used in such way, please look at our book club and our readings on each of the Koans (I think we got up to No. 75) of the Book of Serenity (aka Book of Equanimity), a Koan collection cherished in the Soto Tradition and by Dogen (who also cherished the Blue Cliff Record collection). You will see how the Koans actually have meaning.

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...T-CIRCLE/page3

    The idea that Koans are meant to be totally meaningless, absurd and just monkey wrenches to the brain is ridiculous. For example, in ordinary logic a chair is not a mountain. In Zen, a chair is not a mountain yet it is, as are you too. Koans just help us understand such points. No, they are not merely to be understood with the brain intellectually, but one might say that they need to be understood with a freshly open brain and felt deep in the bones. They are often meant to be fun too (They usually contain humor. Part of the difficulty we have with them is that the old Chinese jokes, puns and references are hard to translate now ... but people got the jokes and cultural references back then).

    I think that, before we move on to the next book in the book club, we should spend a few weeks moving on to a few more Koans in the Book of Equanimity. Let's do so.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-10-2018 at 12:41 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  7. #7

    Koans

    The logic in Koans makes perfect sense to me and is a nice teaching tool in the Soto tradition. They also make perfect sense in the Rinzai sense. They are fun both ways. I just object to their use in the Rinzai sense in most cases. Let’s do some book of serenity stuff!

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

    PS: I’ll take that back. I am grumpy today and also dislike Soto view of koans.
    Last edited by Jishin; 01-10-2018 at 12:52 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post

    PS: I’ll take that back. I am grumpy today and also dislike Soto view of koans.
    That's a Koan too.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  9. #9
    I know. That’s why I said it.



    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  10. #10
    I like reading koans because I like little anecdotes like that. Some of the koans make sense to me and others don't. The ones that make sense I tend to reuse. The ones that don't make sense I set aside.


    Warren
    Sat today

  11. #11
    What Warren said (and Jundo and Jishin) seriously, that's how I feel too. I really like them; funny sometimes (and I think this is how they are designed) how the ones I've set aside suddenly make sense. They are like benchmarks of practice. There are these common things that we encounter during our practice, which is why I think they resonate.

    Jundo, I'm glad you brought it up; I really can't wait to get back into The Book of Equanimity!!!

    Gassho,

    Rish
    -sat/lah

  12. #12
    I did koan study about 30 years. Some koans taught me much some did not. All i want to say here is, you can maybe become a great theoretical wine expert by reading books about wine. but without tasting wine you'll never become a connoiseur (according to my dictionary an English word too). Please enjoy the stories of the koans, but don't think that you will know what a koan is and can do without studying them with a qualified teacher. Even reading books about the mumonkan by Aitken or Shibayama wount be good enough. Three years ago i stopped koan practice, because i live too far from my teacher ( for Dutch proportions, may be you guys find it just around the corner) and now i do shikantaza again, like in my first three years.

    maybe not even 2 cents,


    Coos

    std and did shikantaza

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  13. #13
    Sometimes the koans aren't in books but in our lives; sometimes we read something that isn't necessarily a "Zen" book but presents what is very much a koan.

    Who is the qualified teacher who can teach us the koan that is our lives?

    Gassho,

    Rish
    -st/lah

    ps. ok I'm being koany. lol

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post

    Who is the qualified teacher who can teach us the koan that is our lives?
    in 1960 Karlfried Graf Duerckheim wrote a book: "Der Altag als Uebung" I don't know if it was translated in English, would be something like 'daily life as practice'. some questions have answers.


    Coos
    std
    Last edited by aprapti; 01-10-2018 at 09:15 PM.

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  15. #15
    Genjo Koan is a pretty cool one.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  16. #16
    maybe not even 2 cents
    Hey Coos, That's about 5 cents Canadian; we don't haave pennies anymore

    gassho, Shokai

    stlah
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by aprapti View Post
    in 1960 Karlfried Graf Duerckheim wrote a book: "Der Altag als Uebung" I don't know if it was translated in English, would be something like 'daily life as practice'. some questions have answers.


    Coos
    std
    Boom! That's what I get for trying to be smart

    Gassho,

    Rish
    -sat/lah

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    Boom! That's what I get for trying to be smart

    Gassho,

    Rish
    -sat/lah
    sorry, Rish, did not want to be rude.

    Coos std

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    Hey Coos, That's about 5 cents Canadian; we don't haave pennies anymore

    gassho, Shokai

    stlah
    we do everything in euro's now..

    Coos
    std

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  20. #20
    Coos - not rude at all

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by aprapti View Post
    in 1960 Karlfried Graf Duerckheim wrote a book: "Der Altag als Uebung" I don't know if it was translated in English, would be something like 'daily life as practice'. some questions have answers.


    Coos
    std
    I always appreciate your input Coos.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Risho View Post
    Sometimes the koans aren't in books but in our lives; sometimes we read something that isn't necessarily a "Zen" book but presents what is very much a koan.

    Who is the qualified teacher who can teach us the koan that is our lives?

    Gassho,

    Rish
    -st/lah

    ps. ok I'm being koany. lol
    I agree with this. They are like poems or songs on the radio, and can have different meanings or aspects that come alive for us at different times, not even necessarily what the poet or song writer himself "meant." In fact, most of the Koans are now known not to be historical events, but literary tropes written centuries after the people supposedly in them were gone, and most of the Koans (like the famous "Does a Dog Have Buddha Nature" MU Koan) have evolved through time. Wonderful book on the history of that Koan alone ...

    Like Cats and Dogs: Contesting the Mu Koan in Zen Buddhism

    In a careful analysis of the historical and rhetorical basis of the literature, Steven Heine demonstrates that the Mu version of the case, preferred by advocates of the key-phrase approach, does not by any means constitute the final word concerning the meaning and significance of the Mu Koan. He shows that another canonical version, which gives both "Yes" and "No" responses, must be taken into account. Like Cats and Dogs offers critical insight and a new theoretical perspective on "the koan of koans."

    ...

    [Heine] is able to raise a number of valuable questions about the history of this text, but there are two primary questions. First, why is this particular response to the question about a dog’s Buddha-nature so predominant (what Heine calls the “Ur Version”), when there are a number of alternative responses to this question in the textual history of Chan Buddhism? In other examples there are affirmative answers to the question, or both affirmative and negative answers, or additional questions and statements concerning the initial question. [End Page 671]

    Second, why has Dahui’s insistence on the authority of Zhaozhou’s Mu come to displace the rich literary heritage of other renowned patriarchs devoted to alternative versions? Dahui’s most notable contribution to kōan practice is his use of the key-phrase or “head-word” method, epitomized in Zhaozhou’s Mu, where the student is told to forget all concerns about the particulars of question-and-answer in the case, and instead simply focus on Mu alone. In this approach, what Heine calls “Emphatic Mu,” the primary power of Zhaozhou’s Mu is in its capacity to block any linguistic entry to realization, so that the student must demonstrate their insight in a direct, nonverbal fashion. Heine contrasts the Emphatic Mu approach to an “Expansive Mu” method where “words perpetuate words” (p. 29). The latter is exemplified in “Dual Version” cases where one finds both affirmative and negative answers to the initial question, thus encouraging original literary responses to reveal and expand the practitioner’s insights. Heine traces the Expansive Mu approach to Hongzhi in the twelfth-century Southern Song, and finds this approach most prominently displayed in the works of the thirteenth-century Japanese Zen master, Eihei Dōgen.

    While Heine’s critical historical study uncovers important omissions and inconsistencies in contemporary scholarship on the Mu kōan, its most significant contribution...

    https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Heine-Cats.pdf
    Anyone who says that one Koan has one approach is trying to force life into a mold. In my belief, the Koans are often misused in that way, and should be seen as living things.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  23. #23
    another boom! thank you Jundo

    Gassho

    Rish
    -sat/lah

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post

    Anyone who says that one Koan has one approach is trying to force life into a mold. In my belief, the Koans are often misused in that way, and should be seen as living things.
    you are absolutely right. There is not one answer to a koan. In fact every student has a different answer. In fact, sometimes you get the same koan back later and than you will have an other approach and another answer. That's why you cannot give an answer by the book, like Yoel Hoffmann, the sound of the one hand; 281 koans and there answers.


    coos

    std

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  25. #25
    Hello there,

    Bit of a trip down memory lane this week - it's pretty saluatory going back through my old posts (blush!) -but this discussion on the koan
    Mu might be worth mentioning - regarding the input of others not my own faltering steps.

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-Meaning-of-Mu



    Willow

    ST

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    I always appreciate your input Coos.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

    Thanks Jishin. I still have to get used to this sangha, i am afraid..


    Coos
    std

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    Hello there,

    Bit of a trip down memory lane this week - it's pretty saluatory going back through my old posts (blush!) -but this discussion on the koan
    Mu might be worth mentioning - regarding the input of others not my own faltering steps.

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-Meaning-of-Mu



    Willow

    ST
    Hi Willow,
    Regarding ‘Essential Writings on Zen's most important Koan'. book about Mu that you mention on the other thread - I read this book many times. It’s always nice to carry Mu in your pocket and pull it out when you need to.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by aprapti View Post
    Thanks Jishin. I still have to get used to this sangha, i am afraid..


    Coos
    std
    Been here for 5 years and still don’t know what I am doing. You seem more on the ball then me. That is no joke.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Hi Willow,
    Regarding ‘Essential Writings on Zen's most important Koan'. book about Mu that you mention on the other thread - I read this book many times. It’s always nice to carry Mu in your pocket and pull it out when you need to.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Hi Jishin,

    I never did read very far into the book - I must have another look. Good to hear you enjoyed it.



    Willow

    ST

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    Hello there,

    Bit of a trip down memory lane this week - it's pretty saluatory going back through my old posts (blush!) -but this discussion on the koan
    Mu might be worth mentioning - regarding the input of others not my own faltering steps.

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-Meaning-of-Mu



    Willow

    ST
    Just read through the old thread, and the Nishijima explanation of mu was fantastic. It struck me as akin to when one of my children starts to ask a question that I know is trouble, and I give them a "no"...not that the answer to the question is no, but the whole question is a big NO!

    Dan
    Sat today
    Last edited by Shinshou; 01-11-2018 at 06:27 PM.

  31. #31
    Usually when I read a Koan I feel like I am reading dialog from the Star Trek NextGen episode Darmok.

    "Shaka, when the walls fell"


  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by willow View Post
    Hi Jishin,

    I never did read very far into the book - I must have another look. Good to hear you enjoyed it.



    Willow

    ST
    Hi Willow,

    On occasion I can’t just be and do a little mooing with no particular destination.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by shoshin View Post
    Usually when I read a Koan I feel like I am reading dialog from the Star Trek NextGen episode Darmok.

    "Shaka, when the walls fell"



    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by shoshin View Post
    Usually when I read a Koan I feel like I am reading dialog from the Star Trek NextGen episode Darmok.

    "Shaka, when the walls fell"

    Great episode!!!!!

  35. #35
    Member Seishin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
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    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    Just like to add my thanks to everyone for their comments here. I was never sure how Koans fitted in with Soto and this thread and those associated with it, makes things much clearer for a relative / absolute beginner like me. Yes I know were all beginners after all.

    Anyway after Jundo's reference to the Book of Equanimity and thread that was active around the time I joined Treeleaf in 2016, I thought a link to the start of that study may be helpful to other folk like me.

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ANIMITY-Case-1


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  36. #36
    I look forward to getting back to the group study of the Book of Equanimity. It is quite good and the insights from others here are always interesting.


    Warren
    Sat today

  37. #37
    Hi all,

    I cherish koan practice because I find them intriguing. The speak to me but not in a conscious way. I read them, forget about them and after a few days, they tend to pop up in my mind. It's hard to explain.

    I admit that normally they are pretty hard to understand for me, but I simply sit and read.

    And then life seems to have a ton of koans in every moment

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  38. #38
    For several years, I used to practice hwadu meditation, which is a form of Koan practice. It never quite fit for me, except for when I was on a retreat. It seems like a good method if you are a monk or have the type of work in your daily life that would allow for you to keep the question.

    I enjoyed reading the Book of Equanimity with the Treeleaf Sangha those years ago. I am also still intrigued by the approach the Kwan Um School takes, where Koans are discussed with a teacher but are not the object of meditation (basically, you can practice Shikantaza but still do their style of Koan practice).

    #SatToday

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    No!
    Ah, my favorite mantra.

  40. #40
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Between Sea and Sky, Australia.
    Quote Originally Posted by aprapti View Post
    Thanks Jishin. I still have to get used to this sangha, i am afraid..


    Coos
    std

    Than you very much both of you, please comment on what's between practice and service?


    Gassho, gassho, gassho

    Geoff.

    SatToday, LaH
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Getchi View Post
    Than you very much both of you, please comment on what's between practice and service?


    Gassho, gassho, gassho

    Geoff.

    SatToday, LaH
    You created the problem so it’s yours to solve.

    Let’s watch a Cricket match!

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Getchi View Post
    Than you very much both of you, please comment on what's between practice and service?


    Gassho, gassho, gassho

    Geoff.

    SatToday, LaH
    i am sorry, Geoff, i do not understand the question. What's between practice and service?


    Coos

    std

    hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

    Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

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