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Thread: The science of zen

  1. #1

    The science of zen

    As someone whose career (and daily life) is based on doing things based on scientific evidence, I am interested in the idea of the science behind the benefits of zazen. Below is a video summerising the evidence for "Mindful medititation", it basically says that the studies so far are poor due to bad trial conditions.

    This made me think, do I really need someone in a labcoat to tell me its good and I should do it? IMO, no. This is probably one of the few things I am okay with not being properly evidence based, I feel I trust those before me in saying zazen is the required to understanding the way.

    I'd be interested to know your thoughts,



    Deep bows,

    Simon.
    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

  2. #2
    You might also be interested in this talk by James H. Austin:



    Jundo wrote something about him and his work in this thread: new Study on Meditation

    Usually, I am on the science side, too. And I agree that it is probably not relevant to know the scientific details about Zazen. Without doing it by yourself, it is just theorizing. Like describing how a banana tastes vs. eating a banana

    Gassho,
    Stefan

    SatToday
    Last edited by Souchi; 10-23-2017 at 06:54 PM.

  3. #3
    Hi,

    I recently read a criticism that even Dr. Austin's phone book sized books on all manner of research about Zen, mystical experiences and the brain, are not a closed book. Even Austin admits in the book that things are far from clear (page 127 here):

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...0brain&f=false

    Things are far from as clear cut as this talk by Dr. Austin might lead some to conclude. Brain studies on the effects of meditation are also a bit all over the board, and are sometimes producing completely contradictory results. Our more science trained folks might interpret the following more precisely, but I believe it is saying that results are quite mixed, test methods questionable and actually hard to interpret. It is from a major "Meta-Study" on meditation, a study looking at the quality of studies on meditation
    ...

    The report concluded, "Scientific research on meditation practices does not appear to have a common theoretical perspective and is characterized by poor methodological quality. Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence. Future research on meditation practices must be more rigorous in the design and execution of studies and in the analysis and reporting of results." ... "Most clinical trials on meditation practices are generally characterized by poor methodological quality with significant threats to validity in every major quality domain assessed".
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17764203

    That really does not matter for our Shikantaza Practice, by the way. Whatever the cause, the Practice results in experiences and a sense of Wholeness, fluidity, peace and the like which carries into my life. That is enough, proof is in the pudding. I do not need to know that chemical formula of vanilla ice cream, nor the nature of the receptors in the gustatory and olfactory systems, to know that it tastes good. Yum.


    Gassho, Jundo

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-23-2017 at 06:59 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4
    That is a ten year old study
    2007 Jun
    surely we're further ahead now than stated.

    gassho, Shokai
    sat/LAH
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  5. #5
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    That is a ten year old study surely we're further ahead now than stated.

    gassho, Shokai
    sat/LAH
    Ohh, but zazen is beyond space and time.

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

  6. #6
    Professor you might be interested in this talk by John Daido Loori, Roshi. He mentions a study in it about the effects of Zen on the brain.

    https://zmm.mro.org/teachings/the-original-source/

    Gassho
    Ishin
    Sat Today LAH
    Grateful for your practice

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ishin View Post
    Professor you might be interested in this talk by John Daido Loori, Roshi. He mentions a study in it about the effects of Zen on the brain.

    https://zmm.mro.org/teachings/the-original-source/

    Gassho
    Ishin
    Sat Today LAH
    Most of those studies of the effects of meditation on the brain are very ambiguous, some highly contradictory. Nobody really knows what is going on. I have been reading a bit lately that the work of a doctor named Andrew Newberg which purported to identify a "god module" in the brain responsible for many religious and spiritual experiences is actually poorly done and inconclusive. The "module" keeps jumping around.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Most of those studies of the effects of meditation on the brain are very ambiguous, some highly contradictory. Nobody really knows what is going on. I have been reading a bit lately that the work of a doctor named Andrew Newberg which purported to identify a "god module" in the brain responsible for many religious and spiritual experiences is actually poorly done and inconclusive. The "module" keeps jumping around.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    I agree with your original premise that it really doesn't matter to our practice or experience. However it is interesting. I still like this talk though, regardless of the study mentioned

    Gassho
    Ishin
    Sat Today Lah
    Grateful for your practice

  9. #9
    It seems the neuroscience re Zen is a bit of a muddle. As is the neuroscience of "mindfulness." I just read this article which suggests that a daydreaming mind is correlated with a smart brain. http://neurosciencenews.com/intellig...dreaming-7798/ Who knows?

    Gassho
    meishin
    sat today lah

  10. #10
    Hmmm, but everything is written down in a book... so it must be true!

    Yes, the conclusions drawn from the studies are probably a bit fuzzy. Should have added the usual disclaimer to my first post

    "Do not believe in science blindly. Have a look for yourself and then think about it."

    I am not saying that scientists lie to us on purpose or that there is a huge conspiracy going on. Studies are done, conclusions are drawn, results get published. The conclusions might be wrong. That is science. Other people notice there is something unclear or wrong and try to fix or disprove it. That is also science. "The fuzzier the topic the fuzzier the results" often holds. Sometimes scientific works turn out to be no science at all but just wishful thinking. (That is not meant in a negative way, more as an observation.)

    Enough of the rambling, now please go and check out some ==> SCIENCE <==

    Gassho,
    Stefan

    SatToday
    Last edited by Souchi; 10-24-2017 at 06:55 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Meli mOg View Post
    Hmmm, but everything is written down in a book... so it must be true!

    Yes, the conclusions drawn from the studies are probably a bit fuzzy. Should have added the usual disclaimer to my first post

    "Do not believe in science blindly. Have a look for yourself and then think about it."

    I am not saying that scientists lie to us on purpose or that there is a huge conspiracy going on. Studies are done, conclusions are drawn, results get published. The conclusions might be wrong. That is science. Other people notice there is something unclear or wrong and try to fix or disprove it. That is also science. "The fuzzier the topic the fuzzier the results" often holds. Sometimes scientific works turn out to be no science at all but just wishful thinking. (That is not meant in a negative way, more as an observation.)

    Enough of the rambling, now please go and check out some ==> SCIENCE <==

    Gassho,
    Stefan

    SatToday
    Most of the criticism of the meditation studies were (as I understand) tester designers who were themselves often TM or other meditators and tended to interpret small statistical results in very optimistic ways, lack of proper control groups, small samples, small test periods (for example, the test being run for only a couple of weeks), very subjective standards, mixing and matching kinds of meditation without clarifying method, poor screening of other factors, most effects seemed well in the range of just a possible statistical blip, positive studies getting a lot of press (often exaggerated by the media) but inconclusive or negative tests getting little attention, and many other issues. I believe that over 95% of the tests were considered poorly designed in that meta-study I cited. The TM folks were really bad about bending results to sustain the conclusions that they were hoping for.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    Joyo
    Guest
    Hi Professor,

    I am not interested in the science behind the benefits of zazen. Sometimes the more one studies and thinks, the less one knows.

    This is my 2 cents, coming from an over thinker.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today

  13. #13
    Isn't this latest study regarding Mindfulness meditation not Shikantaza? So I don't know if we can transfer the findings over to us. I mean if I do a study on football can I say it relates to basketball too because it's a ball? I do not practice zazen to lower my cholesterol, keep my blood pressure under control, relieve stress or cure baldness. If it does that, fine. If not, that's OK too.

    Gassho
    Sat Today / LAH
    James

  14. #14
    I do not practice zazen to lower my cholesterol, keep my blood pressure under control, relieve stress or cure baldness.
    I think you just said it all

    gassho, Shokai

    sat/LAH
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  15. #15
    The real problem with TM studies is the mind-set, that the practice itself is so pure that the neophyte gets instant results... the problem is, they don't. Roy C. Mathew used seasoned experienced Raja yoga practicioners from India, and seasonsed experienced Zen practicioners from Japan and got very reliable results. But not the same results. see his book "True Path" - the same holds true for mindfulness meditation. You can't group beginners with experienced and trained practicioners. Mindfulness meditation is for the most part lightly applied mindfulness of breathing, practiced diligently it can be wonderful, but for the most part something more is required to reached avowedly profound physiological and cognitive changes

  16. #16
    And i sat today.

  17. #17
    Let me underline ...

    This Practice has worked in my life for 30 years, allowing me to find a home in this life through all the ups and downs, losses and gains, birth and death, sickness and health and all the rest.

    This Practice has brought Peace and Joy to my heart ... including being At Peace and Joyous Contentment with not always being (small p) peaceful and (small h) happy happy all the time, for life is sometimes anything but peaceful and has its sad times too, and that's ok.

    This Practice has allowed me to see ways to moderate my excess desires, let go of anger, encounter this world seeing beyond its divisions and frustrations, all in flowing with the Flowing Wholeness where nothing is needed or lacking, and which flows on as this little world of the coming and going of separate things.

    This Practice has taught me how to push ahead with goals and duties and jobs to do in this world of so many responsibilities as father, husband, worker and friend, as well as citizen trying to make this world a bit better, all while simultaneously knowing that there is never anything in need of achieving, no hole in need of filling, nothing broken to fix from the startless start.

    I know, because of what I know in my own life and heart, like one knows the sweetness of sugar on one's own tongue, like one knows the love of a child although it cannot easily be measured. I know by how I experience life and its constant trials and triumphs, smiles and tears.

    But ... I don't know if it helps prevent baldness (not as I watch myself age in the mirror, although it sure has helped make beautiful the aging itself).

    I don't know if it has helped lower my cholesterol (I have a little pill for that, although Zen lessons on lifestyle, healthy living and moderation sure can't hurt).

    I don't know if it helps me be more efficient in the office ... although it lets me know on the spot that there is no place to go, and to be At Home right here, even with countless places to go and people to see and holes to fill.

    I don't know if it helps my marriage ... except I am pretty sure it does, given how I react now to the strains of being a husband and father, compared to how I am tempted to react.

    I don't know if it reduces stress or aid depressions ... Actually I DO know that it reduces stress, because I can compare myself now to the depressed, stressed out, lost guy I was 30 years ago (And, anyway, if someone has depression mental and medical counseling can and should go hand in hand too).

    I don't know (and I am pretty sure) that it will not fix all the problems of this world ... but it helps fix many of them, brings Compassion and Loving Kindness into my heart to try to help others, and to work to make this planet better as we can (in fact, I believe that many of the values of Buddhism will help us get past the greed and violence and division that often plagues our world now).

    I don't know ... but that is so often a doorway in this Practice, as we clear out from the head all the subjective judgments and momentary doubts and partial ideas that actually hide a kind of Big K Knowing, uncovering that Flowing Wholeness which flows right through all our aversions and attractions, names and categories, past present future.

    That is all I know.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-25-2017 at 01:54 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18


    Gassho
    Meishin
    Sat today lah

  19. #19

    The science of zen

    I do find the science interesting. Perhaps better studies are needed, but its a start. The Buddha himself (badly paraphrasing) said don’t take my word for it but experience it for yourself and decide. I can say it has definitely helped me in my life and I can see it has helped others in their life. That is all I really need to know.


    Sat2day

  20. #20
    And remember folks he's not just the president he's also a member!
    Hair-club.jpg

    Gassho
    Ishin
    Sat Today
    Grateful for your practice

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