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Thread: Bodhidharma and Huike: how much are you willing to give?

  1. #1

    Bodhidharma and Huike: how much are you willing to give?

    Jundo wishes it to be noted that this is the work of a recently ordained novice priest and, as such, is not to be taken as a teaching but a personal reflection. Please take these words with a large grain of salt.


    A while ago I wrote this haiku:

    fallen branch
    the second ancestor stands
    before Daruma


    This alludes to a famous incident which is supposed to have happened between Bodhidharma (Daruma) the man said to have brought Buddhism to China, and his student and dharma successor, Huike. Since Bodhidharma was the first person to teach the way of Ch’an, he is called the first Zen patriarch. As his successor, Huike is the second patriarch or ancestor. There are six great Zen ancestors, the third, fourth, fifth and sixth being Sengcan, Daoxin, Hongren and Huineng, respectively.

    After a not so great meeting with Emperor Wu, Bodhidharma is said to have headed to a Shaolin monastery in southern China. Refused entry, he spent the next nine years meditating facing the wall in a nearby cave.

    Huike (then called Shen-kuang) was a great scholar both of Buddhist and Taoist texts but realised he needed a teacher to go deeper. He found Bodhidharma in his cave and, standing up to his waist in snow, asked to be taught. Bodhidharma refused to teach him initially and left Huike out in the cold, probably wondering what he had to do for Bodhidharma to acknowledge him.

    In order to prove his seriousness, Huike is said to have cut off one of his arms and hand it to Bodhidharma, at which point the first ancestor agrees to take him on as a student. My haiku verse uses the phrase ‘fallen branch’ to refer to Huike’s severed limb as well as the fact that both Bodhidharma and Zen itself have fallen away from the main trunk of Indian Buddhism.

    I had not thought about the story in a while until I came across this picture in D T Suzuki’s second volume of Essays in Zen Buddhism:

    'Huike Offering His Arm to Bodhidharma’ by Sesshū Tōyō, 1496

    Suzuki’s commentary on the picture notes that while some historians doubt the reality of this event happening, the story of Huike’s arm was already in circulation in the seventh century rather than being a later invention. Tao-hsüan wrote in Biographies of Eminent Priests in 645, that he believed that Huike lost his arm during an attack by a highwayman.

    Having a knowledge of modern historical research we know that accounts of religious figures tend to be more hagiography than biography or, at the very least, embellished to a large degree. Whether or not they actually happened, Zen stories are designed to convey a truth about life and practice. So, what is this tale about?

    Can you imagine being so desperate to practice that you willingly cut off your own arm? For Huike, the thought of going away from Bodhidharma without being accepted as a student was so great that this is the path he took.

    In modern Zen, a teacher is highly unlikely to be so demanding, yet students are still forced to wait outside of Eiheiji and Sojiji temples in Japan to test their resolve. Do they really have the determination to practice or just an idea that they might like to be a Zen master?

    In our practice we all make sacrifices. At the very least this will be the time it takes to sit daily, almost certainly some money to buy a zafu, books and go on retreat, and very likely changing our ethical behaviour to accord with the Buddha way and Bodhisattva vows.

    Cutting off your own arm to demonstrate your dedication seems too far for most of us yet we may have willingly transformed the direction of our life in the pursuit of Zen practice. Is this any less of a sacrifice?

    Probably, what we have been willing to give has increased incrementally, beginning with a few minutes set aside for practice and then time to study the precepts, buying material to sew a rakusu and learning how to do that, joining in with discussions and three months of Ango and so forth. Hopefully, these are all sacrifices we are willing to make but sometimes they conflict with other demands on our life – demands of family, things we want, socialising with friends, being able to gossip freely and engage in behaviour that is less than ethical. What do we do at those moments? Do we go back to old ways because it is easier or acknowledge the sacrifice we are being asked to make to follow our heart?

    For me, what the story of Huike and Bodhidharma is asking is when the chips are down and push comes to shove, how much are we willing to give up to practice Zen and be true to ourselves – time, money, conflict, an arm or even your life?

  2. #2

    Bodhidharma and Huike: how much are you willing to give?

    I don’t think it’s a matter of giving but a matter of contentment with what one gives. The right amount manifests itself all by itself when sitting. The point is mute.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Last edited by Jishin; 10-15-2017 at 04:45 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Jundo wishes it to be noted that this is the work of a recently ordained novice priest and, as such, is not to be taken as a teaching but a personal reflection. Please take these words with a large grain of salt.


    A while ago I wrote this haiku:

    fallen branch
    the second ancestor stands
    before Daruma


    This alludes to a famous incident which is supposed to have happened between Bodhidharma (Daruma) the man said to have brought Buddhism to China, and his student and dharma successor, Huike. Since Bodhidharma was the first person to teach the way of Ch’an, he is called the first Zen patriarch. As his successor, Huike is the second patriarch or ancestor. There are six great Zen ancestors, the third, fourth, fifth and sixth being Sengcan, Daoxin, Hongren and Huineng, respectively.

    After a not so great meeting with Emperor Wu, Bodhidharma is said to have headed to a Shaolin monastery in southern China. Refused entry, he spent the next nine years meditating facing the wall in a nearby cave.

    Huike (then called Shen-kuang) was a great scholar both of Buddhist and Taoist texts but realised he needed a teacher to go deeper. He found Bodhidharma in his cave and, standing up to his waist in snow, asked to be taught. Bodhidharma refused to teach him initially and left Huike out in the cold, probably wondering what he had to do for Bodhidharma to acknowledge him.

    In order to prove his seriousness, Huike is said to have cut off one of his arms and hand it to Bodhidharma, at which point the first ancestor agrees to take him on as a student. My haiku verse uses the phrase ‘fallen branch’ to refer to Huike’s severed limb as well as the fact that both Bodhidharma and Zen itself have fallen away from the main trunk of Indian Buddhism.

    I had not thought about the story in a while until I came across this picture in D T Suzuki’s second volume of Essays in Zen Buddhism:

    'Huike Offering His Arm to Bodhidharma’ by Sesshū Tōyō, 1496

    Suzuki’s commentary on the picture notes that while some historians doubt the reality of this event happening, the story of Huike’s arm was already in circulation in the seventh century rather than being a later invention. Tao-hsüan wrote in Biographies of Eminent Priests in 645, that he believed that Huike lost his arm during an attack by a highwayman.

    Having a knowledge of modern historical research we know that accounts of religious figures tend to be more hagiography than biography or, at the very least, embellished to a large degree. Whether or not they actually happened, Zen stories are designed to convey a truth about life and practice. So, what is this tale about?

    Can you imagine being so desperate to practice that you willingly cut off your own arm? For Huike, the thought of going away from Bodhidharma without being accepted as a student was so great that this is the path he took.

    In modern Zen, a teacher is highly unlikely to be so demanding, yet students are still forced to wait outside of Eiheiji and Sojiji temples in Japan to test their resolve. Do they really have the determination to practice or just an idea that they might like to be a Zen master?

    In our practice we all make sacrifices. At the very least this will be the time it takes to sit daily, almost certainly some money to buy a zafu, books and go on retreat, and very likely changing our ethical behaviour to accord with the Buddha way and Bodhisattva vows.

    Cutting off your own arm to demonstrate your dedication seems too far for most of us yet we may have willingly transformed the direction of our life in the pursuit of Zen practice. Is this any less of a sacrifice?

    Probably, what we have been willing to give has increased incrementally, beginning with a few minutes set aside for practice and then time to study the precepts, buying material to sew a rakusu and learning how to do that, joining in with discussions and three months of Ango and so forth. Hopefully, these are all sacrifices we are willing to make but sometimes they conflict with other demands on our life – demands of family, things we want, socialising with friends, being able to gossip freely and engage in behaviour that is less than ethical. What do we do at those moments? Do we go back to old ways because it is easier or acknowledge the sacrifice we are being asked to make to follow our heart?

    For me, what the story of Huike and Bodhidharma is asking is when the chips are down and push comes to shove, how much are we willing to give up to practice Zen and be true to ourselves – time, money, conflict, an arm or even your life?
    Lovely Kokuu! I discussed this Koan a bit with Yukon from ZMM, while we were in the car on the way to get my fingertip stitched up See, I was ready to make the sacrifice!

    Your haiku, as usual, is beautiful and perfect! For years, before I felt I could look real practice in the eye, I would consider Joko Beck, asking questions like whether I would be okay with losing a limb... or my home, etc. I could not answer yes to those questions, so I felt that I would probably be a bad Buddhist.

    Anyway, I can't say I wouldn't have a difficult time with any of those things now, but I am more confident that I would eventually be okay... that is the leap of faith I take in this practice. Ever since Shokai quoted Desiderata, I keep remembering that "the Universe is unfolding as it should."

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    Gassho
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #4
    Hmmmm I like your Haiku, Kokuu. Certainly there is something in loosing one's limb that represents letting go of your self. It's probably impossible to know if this literally or symbolically happened. For me, what I have come to and am beginning to realize is that holding onto our old "self", unwholesome behavior and habits is what truly causes the real suffering. Of course our ego may not want to accept that, but things that seem pleasurable and fun or exciting eventually pass and never leave one satisfied and often with regret.

    If we are not okay with loosing our limb, our home, etc. then perhaps we had better practice. Is not everything impermanent? Are we not going to loose them all eventually anyway? My wife and I went shopping for new furniture in a room that desperately needs it. One sales associate said that their products used to have a lifetime guarantee, but that the government stopped allowing those because no company could assure that they would indeed be in business for one person's lifetime.

    When we look through the lens of time it is clear that everything fades. May we be at peace.

    Gassho
    Ishin
    Sat Today. LAH
    Grateful for your practice

  5. #5
    so I felt that I would probably be a bad Buddhist.
    There are no good or bad Buddhists; there are just human beings doing there best to do no harm, live a good life and help others.

    gassho, Shokai
    sat/LAH
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  6. #6
    Beautiful, thanks for this, Kokuu. I hadn’t thought about this story for a while either, it’s nice to take a fresh look.

    It goes to the heart of practice, I think. And what Ishin says really rings my bell. The fact is, we can't hold onto our old "self", or anyone, or anything. It is delusion to believe otherwise.

    I read this as a story of sacrifice, of determination to practice, but now I’m also seeing renunciation in it. When Huike cuts off his arm and offers it to Bodhidharma, maybe he's not doing it to show his dedication, or to prove how far he's willing to go, how much he's willing to suffer, or what he's willing to give up. What if he's doing it to demonstrate that he has seen the nature of reality... and he understands deeply that “his” arm was never his to begin with? And, at the same time, he's saying that he knows he can never lose that arm. Huike comes to Bodhidharma ready to practice, but Bodhidharma is testing him, doubting his sincerity, or just playing hard to get. When Huike cuts off his arm, it seems to me that he cuts right through all that resistance. He offers this to Bodhidharma, and they truly meet face-to-face in that moment of acceptance of the way things are; that moment of renunciation.

    Being willing to let go of something precious, or to hold it with an open hand and heart, is to live in accordance with reality. We don't have to give things and people away, willy-nilly, to prove any point. Please, don’t anyone cut off your arm! But to realize in our hearts and minds, in our bones, that we don't own anything or anyone -- not even our own bodies, not even our own lives -- is the beginning of freedom. We can learn to love without grasping. We can learn to have (or to lose) "our" home and "our" things with less attachment. When the hard times come, as they will for all of us, we can find equanimity and even joy in the midst of the struggle. We learn to accept the changes and challenges of life with grace. And in renouncing our claim, in accepting reality as it is, we discover the boundlessness that was always there, obscured by our deluded and grasping habits.

    Shunryu Suzuki defined it perfectly, very simply: "Renunciation is not giving up the things of the world, but accepting that they go away."

    And in this going away is a never-going-away. In wholeheartedly giving up my arm, I receive the body that is never maimed, that never dies. In giving up my grasping and jealous love, I swim in the vast love that holds all the universe together. In giving up my attachment to my few worldly goods, I find abundance. In giving up my small idea of “self”, I realize my true nature which is all-encompassing.

    What comes after that moment of renunciation? Do we keep chopping off limbs? Put down the hacksaw, there’s no need. What comes after is a lifetime of practice. The vows we take affirm the truth and our intention to live within it.

    It’s interesting, if you look at the story from this angle, to wonder why Huike wants so much to connect with Bodhidharma. If Huike has glimpsed the truth, why does he need a teacher? Why not go off and practice what he knows, in his own time and way? I think it's about the need for Sangha. It’s not enough to glimpse the truth. We need to real-ize it with others, we need their support for when the vision falters. We need the companionship and encouragement of others who perceive the world in a similar way, and have a little experience and wisdom to share. And we need the challenge of practicing with others to keep us from falling into a self-satisfied zen dream. Huike needs Bodhidharma, and Bodhidharma needs Huike, and there you have a Sangha. Jundo’s wife told us at the end of our Orlando Retreat, “It is the students that make the Teacher.” Likewise, it’s the Sangha that makes the practitioner. This story speaks to me about renunciation and taking refuge. Perfect for Ango & Jukai season!

    Of course I could be reading it all wrong. I’m looking through “baby Unsui glasses” and bringing all my own nonsense to it. Please pass the salt, I’m only rambling, as ever.

    Q:What am I willing to give up, to practice zen and be true to myself?
    A: Nothing. I don't own anything to give up. So, everything.

    Gassho
    Byōkan
    sat + lah
    展道 渺寛 Tendō Byōkan
    Please take my words with a big grain of salt. I know nothing. Wisdom is only found in our whole-hearted practice together.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Byokan View Post
    Shunryu Suzuki defined it perfectly, very simply: "Renunciation is not giving up the things of the world, but accepting that they go away."



    Of course I could be reading it all wrong. I’m looking through “baby Unsui glasses” and bringing all my own nonsense to it. Please pass the salt, I’m only rambling, as ever.


    Gassho
    Byōkan
    sat + lah
    I love this Susuki quote. Byokan even if you are all wrong, I think this is awesome!

    Gassho
    Ishin
    SAT/Lah
    Grateful for your practice

  8. #8
    I read this as a story of sacrifice, of determination to practice, but now I’m also seeing renunciation in it. When Huike cuts off his arm and offers it to Bodhidharma, maybe he's not doing it to show his dedication, or to prove how far he's willing to go, how much he's willing to suffer, or what he's willing to give up. What if he's doing it to demonstrate that he has seen the nature of reality... and he understands deeply that “his” arm was never his to begin with? And, at the same time, he's saying that he knows he can never lose that arm.
    I think you are right and have cut righ to the heart of the story. Since I wrote it, I have had this nagging feeling of its dualistic nature.

    Giver, receiver and gift are all one. There is nothing to give and nothing to take.


    It’s interesting, if you look at the story from this angle, to wonder why Huike wants so much to connect with Bodhidharma. If Huike has glimpsed the truth, why does he need a teacher?
    The one problem with Huike already being realised is that the next part of the story has Huike asking Bodhidharma to pacify his mind. Bodhidharma asks him to bring it to him and when Huike replies that he cannot, the realisation is made.

    It may be that the story combines two teachings that do not fit harmoniously into a single narrative.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    Last edited by Kokuu; 10-16-2017 at 09:29 AM.

  9. #9
    Beautifully put, Byokan, as usual :-)

    Gassho,Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH

  10. #10
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Byokan View Post
    Beautiful, thanks for this, Kokuu. I hadn’t thought about this story for a while either, it’s nice to take a fresh look.

    It goes to the heart of practice, I think. And what Ishin says really rings my bell. The fact is, we can't hold onto our old "self", or anyone, or anything. It is delusion to believe otherwise.

    I read this as a story of sacrifice, of determination to practice, but now I’m also seeing renunciation in it. When Huike cuts off his arm and offers it to Bodhidharma, maybe he's not doing it to show his dedication, or to prove how far he's willing to go, how much he's willing to suffer, or what he's willing to give up. What if he's doing it to demonstrate that he has seen the nature of reality... and he understands deeply that “his” arm was never his to begin with? And, at the same time, he's saying that he knows he can never lose that arm. Huike comes to Bodhidharma ready to practice, but Bodhidharma is testing him, doubting his sincerity, or just playing hard to get. When Huike cuts off his arm, it seems to me that he cuts right through all that resistance. He offers this to Bodhidharma, and they truly meet face-to-face in that moment of acceptance of the way things are; that moment of renunciation.

    Being willing to let go of something precious, or to hold it with an open hand and heart, is to live in accordance with reality. We don't have to give things and people away, willy-nilly, to prove any point. Please, don’t anyone cut off your arm! But to realize in our hearts and minds, in our bones, that we don't own anything or anyone -- not even our own bodies, not even our own lives -- is the beginning of freedom. We can learn to love without grasping. We can learn to have (or to lose) "our" home and "our" things with less attachment. When the hard times come, as they will for all of us, we can find equanimity and even joy in the midst of the struggle. We learn to accept the changes and challenges of life with grace. And in renouncing our claim, in accepting reality as it is, we discover the boundlessness that was always there, obscured by our deluded and grasping habits.

    Shunryu Suzuki defined it perfectly, very simply: "Renunciation is not giving up the things of the world, but accepting that they go away."

    And in this going away is a never-going-away. In wholeheartedly giving up my arm, I receive the body that is never maimed, that never dies. In giving up my grasping and jealous love, I swim in the vast love that holds all the universe together. In giving up my attachment to my few worldly goods, I find abundance. In giving up my small idea of “self”, I realize my true nature which is all-encompassing.

    What comes after that moment of renunciation? Do we keep chopping off limbs? Put down the hacksaw, there’s no need. What comes after is a lifetime of practice. The vows we take affirm the truth and our intention to live within it.

    It’s interesting, if you look at the story from this angle, to wonder why Huike wants so much to connect with Bodhidharma. If Huike has glimpsed the truth, why does he need a teacher? Why not go off and practice what he knows, in his own time and way? I think it's about the need for Sangha. It’s not enough to glimpse the truth. We need to real-ize it with others, we need their support for when the vision falters. We need the companionship and encouragement of others who perceive the world in a similar way, and have a little experience and wisdom to share. And we need the challenge of practicing with others to keep us from falling into a self-satisfied zen dream. Huike needs Bodhidharma, and Bodhidharma needs Huike, and there you have a Sangha. Jundo’s wife told us at the end of our Orlando Retreat, “It is the students that make the Teacher.” Likewise, it’s the Sangha that makes the practitioner. This story speaks to me about renunciation and taking refuge. Perfect for Ango & Jukai season!

    Of course I could be reading it all wrong. I’m looking through “baby Unsui glasses” and bringing all my own nonsense to it. Please pass the salt, I’m only rambling, as ever.

    Q:What am I willing to give up, to practice zen and be true to myself?
    A: Nothing. I don't own anything to give up. So, everything.

    Gassho
    Byōkan
    sat + lah

    Very nice Byokan, very nice. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    The one problem with Huike already being realised is that the next part of the story has Huike asking Bodhidharma to pacify his mind. Bodhidharma asks him to bring it to him and when Huike replies that he cannot, the realisation is made.

    It may be that the story combines two teachings that do not fit harmoniously into a single narrative.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    Haha, yes, I'm probably really reaching on this one! Renunciation is very much on my mind(heart) these days. This is how books and songs and things can have such different meanings to us at different times in our life; we bring so much with us and it filters our perception. We overlay our preconceived notions onto things. You've given me a good reminder to "empty the cup" as much as possible!

    I will say, however, that if Huike is anything like me, he gets a flashing glimpse of the truth one day, and then falls right back into old habits of mind the next. Ah well, this is the practice.

    Your question -- "Do they really have the determination to practice or just an idea that they might like to be a Zen master?" is one that I think we all come to eventually, if we hang around long enough. Jakuden talks about the years before she could "look real practice in the eye". I sure can relate to that. Little by little, the fear of authentic practice falls away, and the determination to practice -- the sacrifice -- becomes truly joyful.

    Gassho
    Byōkan
    sat + lah
    Last edited by Byokan; 10-16-2017 at 05:26 PM.
    展道 渺寛 Tendō Byōkan
    Please take my words with a big grain of salt. I know nothing. Wisdom is only found in our whole-hearted practice together.

  12. #12
    Nice, Kokuu!
    I'm happy you posted it here too.

    And look, the other "kids" do beautiful things once the sand is in the sandbox

    Says a person who is struggling with sewing one-handed.
    Sh... kite, I am definitely not liking this Huike.

    But then, I'm as enlightened as a 5-legged cockroach.

    Gassho,
    Jika
    sattoday, lah (one)
    治 Ji
    花 Ka

  13. #13
    I would rather keep both my arms than lose one. Sure, I’d be “okay” if I did (as well as not okay), but as Jundo says, all things are impermanent but there’s no need to hurry things along.

    Dan
    Sat today


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  14. #14
    Just to note again, the whole story of Hui-ke's cutting off his arm is certainly apocryphal. First, he would have bled to death absent some miracle (although such miracles were often found in these old legends too). It was also probably borrowed from the biography of another Zen fellow of the time who lost his arm to robbers.

    Read a few pages from middle of p. 136 here ... to start of 142.

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?red...%20arm&f=false

    But, whatever, the case, the story stands for students who are dedicated and willing to make sacrifices.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodaylah
    Last edited by Jundo; 12-24-2017 at 03:42 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #15

    Bodhidharma and Huike: how much are you willing to give?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Just to note again, the whole story of Hui-ke's cutting off his arm is certainly apocryphal.
    Not necessarily. Arteries are very elastic and are under constant stretch and pressure. If his arm was completely lopped off (100% medical term) the arteries would contract and spasm causing them to close resulting in a very survivable injury. This would only have last an hour or so before they would have started to relax and leak, if a decent clot hadn’t formed by then he would have bleed out (medical term). He probably would have died of an infection.

    I propose an alternative theory, Huike used ones of those knives magicians use in shows to make it look like he his cutting his arm off.

    The Great Simondo
    Sat



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

  16. #16
    Thank you Kokuu. The essence of your words resonate with me greatly and is food for thought. There are several stories about people losing a finger, breaking ones own leg to sit full lotus etc. To achieve or reach any goal on a spiritual path it takes endurance and a radical mindset to do what is needed. Maybe not really cut your arm or break a leg like in these stories but to have that radical mindset that is needed. A real commitment, sacrifice and self discipline, not things we are very used to today. Thank you for your reflections on this story.

    Gassho

    MyoHo
    Mu

  17. #17
    On a serious note. I have thought about what I would be prepared to give up for the practice.

    I had considered joining a monastic community as it is something I wanted to take seriously. But the more I thought about “giving it all up” to live the life of a zen monk, the more I think it is the wrong thing to do. Maybe for me anyway.

    I want to deepen my practice to help everyone, to go full-time monastic feels like running away. When I visit Throssel Hole, a monastery of the OBC, it is a great dedicated for spiritual practice. But, how does that help other, other than those who can leave home for a week and drive 100 miles into the countryside?

    I want to combine my work and my practice to maximise the benefit to all beings.

    As for for what I would actually do to deepen that practice, I am not sure. It is something I have thought about for a while and now a daily thought. I don’t know what to do to make a zen teacher take me as there student/unsui. Do I stand outside their house until they let me in or the police take me away? Or do I just wait and hope time doesn’t run out? Everyday I am reminded how important the matter of life and death is, how it swiftly passes by, like a dewdrop on the morning grass. Brain aneurysms are a big part of my family history, many of my relatives have dropped dead from them. I decided not to get scanned, as it wouldn’t really change anything. But it really brings things into perspective.

    But, then again, zen is life. Would I give my life if it would make a difference to other beings? Yes, without hesitation. I’d like to think anyway.

    Simon/Chishou.
    Sat.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

  18. #18
    Hi Simon,

    Zen can be intoxicating.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Professsor View Post
    Not necessarily. Arteries are very elastic and are under constant stretch and pressure. If his arm was completely lopped off (100% medical term) the arteries would contract and spasm causing them to close resulting in a very survivable injury. This would only have last an hour or so before they would have started to relax and leak, if a decent clot hadn’t formed by then he would have bleed out (medical term). He probably would have died of an infection.
    Yes, definitely, he would have survived ... if he had called you and your ambulance to show up at the cave. However, cell phone service was very bad up there back then, so very unlikely.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  20. #20
    PS -

    As for for what I would actually do to deepen that practice, I am not sure. It is something I have thought about for a while and now a daily thought. I don’t know what to do to make a zen teacher take me as there student/unsui.
    Well, you have to cut your arm off!! (Just kidding ... this being the world, someone will take me literally! I have been contacted over the years by a couple of folks who seem like they were about at the point.)

    If you wish to "deepen your Practice" then keep Practicing, and it will deepen like the ruts of passing wagon wheels. Where are you looking for this "Practice" but right where you are now? Is it in a monastery in Shangri-la? In a cave or up a mountain? Or in your ambulance and sitting on your ass?

    SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: WHAT's NEXT!?!
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-s-NEXT%21-%21

    SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: Why Zen Folks FAIL!! (3) - CHASING
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...283%29-CHASING

    Gee, Simon, you are already starting peoples' stopped hearts and helping house the homeless ... what more would like to do to be helpful? Light some incense? Chant something? Go ahead!
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  21. #21
    I see this grasshopper still have much to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Gee, Simon, you are already starting peoples' stopped hearts and helping house the homeless ... what more would like to do to be helpful? Light some incense? Chant something? Go ahead!
    Could you move the zendo 3 inches to the left, please?

    Thank you for this lesson.

    Simon/Chishou
    Sat



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

  22. #22
    I’m starting to see this as an illustration of how the divide between lay and monastic practice is not always useful and can, in fact, be harmful these days. I have had to be told, both here and at Zen Mountain Monastery, that I already do bodhisattva work every day. Somehow it took convincing that what I do “counts.” But the mental fortitude that gets me up and wading into the fray to help people on Monday morning is the exact same stuff that keeps me on the cushion during Sesshin when I want to run out of the room. Seeing patient after patient, listening carefully and trying to deal skillfully with people for hours when I am exhausted, way behind in the schedule and have to pee really badly is not much different than staying on that Zafu until the bell rings. My Ango partner Daiyo does volunteer work with the Scouts, every weekend for many years, and yet somehow felt that didn’t “count” as bodhisattva work. If we were all to find our bodhicitta, the desire to compassionately help all beings, and apply it to right livelihood every day, the world might be a lovely place indeed! No need for ordination or cutting off of one’s arm!
    Gassho
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Jakuden; 01-17-2018 at 03:06 PM.

  23. #23
    I have had to be told, both here and at Zen Mountain Monastery, that I already do bodhisattva work every day. Somehow it took convincing that what I do “counts.”... My Ango partner Daiyo does volunteer work with the Scouts, every weekend for many years, and yet somehow felt that didn’t “count” as bodhisattva work.
    I think this is part of human nature. Even Martin Luther King and people who work for Medicin Sans Frontieres probably thinkought they are not doing enough. But what else is bodhisattva work other than what is right in front of us?

    As Simon says, we can travel 100 miles and spend a week sitting at a monastery but is that more work of a bodhisattva than feeding your family and helping a child to read? We are all wheels in a huge machine and it is probably just as well as if one of us did everything, there would be nothing left for everyone else!

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-

  24. #24
    Sometimes it comes out of the blue, an indication that you have done some good for another. Several weeks ago I was in a dental clinic, paying my bill, when a woman walked up and spoke to the billing clerk. "This man saved my life." I didn't recognize her and she didn't explain, but she was obviously a patient from long ago. For most off my career I just assumed I was doing my job. Moments like that are reminders of what our jobs really are. Or what they can be.

    Gassho
    Meishin
    Sat today LAH

  25. #25
    My ango partner from two years ago, Jim, told me during a Skype that he was trying to figure out what to do for his day of service. He had already explained his job: I can't remember what it was at the moment, but it involved helping people every day! I told him, "Don't sweat it, you're already doing it!" He still felt that there was more he could do, but I think he felt more at ease hearing it from somebody else.

    I often feel this way, but I look for ways to help. My lah is usually helping my grandmother with various chores. It doesn't feel like much to me, but I know it is a big help for her. I also sometimes realize that when I am really engaged at work, customers and my coworkers are really heartened by it. There are always ways to help other people!

    Gassho, sat today, lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  26. #26
    I once heard a teacher say, "There's no such thing as not doing your best. You're simply reacting to the best of your ability in that moment ... Be gentle".

    I reflect on this a lot. Eat your rice, wash your bowl - start over the next day.

    ST,

    Rakurei

  27. #27
    I still haven’t come to terms with the LAH system. It feels like a way of trying to be recognised something done. Perhaps one day I will feel more comfortable with it.

    Chishou,
    Sat.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

  28. #28
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Chishou View Post
    I still haven’t come to terms with the LAH system. It feels like a way of trying to be recognised something done. Perhaps one day I will feel more comfortable with it.

    Chishou,
    Sat.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Are you not doing this everyday when at work? LAH comes in many forms. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

  29. #29

    Bodhidharma and Huike: how much are you willing to give?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chishou View Post
    I still haven’t come to terms with the LAH system. It feels like a way of trying to be recognised something done. Perhaps one day I will feel more comfortable with it.

    Chishou,
    Sat.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Some people may say that lah is neither born or destroyed, neither stained or pure and neither waxing nor waning. How could there be lah at all?

    I think this is why Dogen went to China. To find out why do we need to practice when we are all Buddha to begin with. Not one thing missing.

    Drums.....

    We are Buddha but don’t express our nature without lah. There is no lah. We are lah.

    I don’t write lah because I think it’s redundant and to write lah it implies that you are not lah but that is just me. I should be less argumentative but what can I say. It’s in my blood. Maybe I’ll start now.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_ , LAH
    Last edited by Jishin; 01-21-2018 at 03:14 AM.

  30. #30
    Joyo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Hi Simon,

    Zen can be intoxicating.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Yes it is. Until you keep practicing, and practice some more and more. Then it becomes that old pair of pants you refuse to part with. =)

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today/lah

  31. #31
    LAH is nothing special to be noticed if everyone is doing it...

    Gassho, sat today, lah
    求道芸化 Kyūdō Geika
    I am just a priest-in-training, please do not take anything I say as a teaching.

  32. #32
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Between Sea and Sky, Australia.
    I didn't feel qualified before, but since were all human here;

    I assumed that a literary like huike giving his right arm meant what he saidin the cave; I have nothing more to add through words.

    As a writer, ind give my right arm if I ever encountered Truth. I wouldn't need it any more.

    Gassho,
    Geoff.

    SatToday

    LentAHand today.
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  33. #33
    Isn't it strange that we question what we need to sacrifice in order to practice, then in practice we question how to include everything (and sacrifice nothing)? Another koan. Perhaps the answer to both questions, as Jishin suggests in his "LAH" comment, is to simply express our nature...sacrifice will present itself, and encompassing all will present itself.

    Dan (Shinsho)
    Sat today

  34. #34
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by danieldodson View Post
    Isn't it strange that we question what we need to sacrifice in order to practice, then in practice we question how to include everything (and sacrifice nothing)? Another koan.
    Great question Dan! Why should anyone have to sacrifice something in order to practice ... maybe through practice what is not needed falls away naturally on it's own.

    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

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