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Thread: Rebirth

  1. #1

    Rebirth

    As I was reading Living by Vow this morning I came across the following quite of Master Dōgen:

    "Now I have the fortune to be born a human being and prepare food to be received by the three jewels. Is this not a great karmic affinity? We must be very happy about this.”

    Excerpt From: "Living by Vow: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts" by Shohaku Okumura. Scribd.
    This material may be protected by copyright.

    Read this book on Scribd: https://www.scribd.com/book/265261088

    I see that at this point in history, there was still a lot of faith in rebirth as traditionally described in the Nikayas and the Agamas. I was surprised because it had been my experience that this is no longer the case in many Zen circles. The six realms and 31 planes are more often described as psychological states.

    Anyway, I wanted to get a feeling for how common the view of Master Dōgen is in our Sangha. For myself, I have a lot of faith in rebirth as described in the quote and in the sutras. Anyway, I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts.

    _/|\_metta,

    Mike
    st


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Khalil Bodhi; 09-14-2017 at 01:13 PM.
    To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
    -Dhp. 183
    My Practice Blog

  2. #2
    Initially I had quite a problem with "rebirth" as I equated it to mean "reincarnation". Over time I've come to accept that rebirth is a continual thing occurring to me even now as I type this response. Each moment is a new moment, with new possibilities and opportunities. I am reborn into this moment now.

    Gassho
    Warren
    Sat today and will LAH shortly

  3. #3
    The Buddha taught the reincarnation type of rebirth, not the moment to moment renewal of ourselves. He didn't just allow it but actively promoted and preached it.

    I'll be interested to read what Jundo and our unsui have to say.

    Dan
    Sat today

  4. #4
    Mp
    Guest
    Hello Mike,

    I for one am not big on rebirth/reincarnation. I feel if one is dealing with or dissolving negative karma, right here, right now is the only place that can happen. This life is most valuable and we should not waste it ...

    Great is the matter of life and death
    Life slips quickly by
    Time waits for no one
    Wake Up Wake Up
    Don't waste a moment!
    I also believe that the Six Realms of Samsara are and can be right here, right now. If we have anger/hatred in our hearts; our lives will be filled with hate. If you have kindness and equanimity in our hearts; we will know a life of peace. These six realms I feel are not just a state of mind, but a state of being. Why wait until I am dead and gone to dissolve and be free from such sufferings? In this life, in this moment I can be free of such delusions even while abiding in Samsara.

    Gassho
    Shingen

    SatToday/LAH

  5. #5
    Hi Mike,

    Some in modern Soto Zen believe in a very traditional view of rebirth and some modern Zen folks do not. In any event, it is not as central to Zen as to most other flavors of Buddhism, because of Zen's general emphasis on transcending such questions, liberation from birth and death, and the immediate moment here and now. Nonetheless, I believe that the majority of Zen folks thru the centuries probably believed in very traditional views of rebirth in some way (and probably Dogen did, as would be expected of most folks of his day and age) .

    In my case, I personally am rather agnostic on post mortem rebirth (and very skeptical to the point of firm disbelief of more detailed, mechanical views) on the matter, although I do believe that we are born and born constantly in each moment, and also born with every blade of grass and distant star (whatever is born is also our birth too). But on the question of coming back as a cockroach or a goddess, I say usually ...

    If there are future lives, heavens and hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

    And if there are no future lives, no heavens or hells ... live this life here and now, seek not to do harm, seek not to build "heavens" and "hells" in this world ... let what happens after "death" take care of itself.

    Thus I do not much care if, in the next life, that "gentle way, avoiding harm" will buy me a ticket to heaven and keep me out of hell ... but I know for a fact that it will go far to do so in this life, today, where I see people create all manner of "heavens and hells" for themselves and those around them by their harmful words, thoughts and acts in this life.

    And if there is a "heaven and hell" in the next life, or other effects of Karma now ... well, my actions now have effects then too, and might be the ticket to heaven or good rebirth.

    In other words, whatever the case ... today, now ... live in a gentle way, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... seeking to avoid harm now and in the future too.
    The question of post mortem rebirth is just not so important to me and my Practice, which is focused on my behavior in this life, thank you.

    Here are a couple of threads I have written on the topic.

    Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VI (Karma)
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...VI-%28Karma%29

    Jundo Tackles the 'BIG' Questions - VII (Life After Death?)
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...fter-Death-%29

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday (and was born and born today) LAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  6. #6
    Rev. Jundo,

    Thanks for your reply! I read through those threads. Also, since I don't want to clog up the forum with new threads, could you quickly let me know what honorifics I should use when addressing you and junior unsui?

    _/|\_ with metta,

    Mike
    st
    To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
    -Dhp. 183
    My Practice Blog

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    I do believe that we are born and born constantly in each moment, and also born with every blade of grass and distant star
    These words speak true to my heart. Thank you Jundo.

    Gassho,
    Brad
    SatToday/LAH

  8. #8
    Treeleaf Priest / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
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    Apr 2013
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    Hi Mike,

    I rest comfortably in "not knowing" on this question. I used to have very materialistic views (in the philosophical sense) and therefore a sceptical stance on "mechanical views on rebirth" (as Jundo put it), but this has loosened with time.

    As was recently discussed in the precept thread - we vow to save all beings. What if they don't want to be saved? How can we possibly save ALL beings? I feel about these questions the same as I feel about rebirth. Who is saved? Who does the saving? Who or what is reborn?

    I have a personal answer to this question, but it may or may not be in line with what the Buddhas of old understood.

    If the left hand applies a healing salve and bandage to a wound on the right hand, who is healed, and who does the healing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khalil Bodhi View Post
    Also, since I don't want to clog up the forum with new threads, could you quickly let me know what honorifics I should use when addressing you and junior unsui?
    I respond fine to "hey you!".

    Gassho,
    Sekishi #sat
    Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sekishi View Post
    Hi Mike,

    I rest comfortably in "not knowing" on this question. I used to have very materialistic views (in the philosophical sense) and therefore a sceptical stance on "mechanical views on rebirth" (as Jundo put it), but this has loosened with time.

    As was recently discussed in the precept thread - we vow to save all beings. What if they don't want to be saved? How can we possibly save ALL beings? I feel about these questions the same as I feel about rebirth. Who is saved? Who does the saving? Who or what is reborn?

    I have a personal answer to this question, but it may or may not be in line with what the Buddhas of old understood.

    If the left hand applies a healing salve and bandage to a wound on the right hand, who is healed, and who does the healing?



    I respond fine to "hey you!".

    Gassho,
    Sekishi #sat
    Hey you Sekishi! Thanks!

    with metta,

    Mike
    st
    To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
    -Dhp. 183
    My Practice Blog

  10. #10
    From what I understand, Dogen wasn't keen on the "non-buddhist view" of rebirth.

    My personal interpretation is: if the only moment that truly exists is now, then from one moment to the next I "die" and am "reborn" in the next moment.

    Gassho
    Simon
    座りました


    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.
    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

  11. #11


    Check out Kokuu-san's reading of Shoji. He has a voice for narration!


    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.
    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Professsor View Post


    Check out Kokuu-san's reading of Shoji. He has a voice for narration!


    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.
    Thanks. I had actually just listened to it before you posted.

    _/|\_ With metta,

    Mike
    st|lah


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
    -Dhp. 183
    My Practice Blog

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Khalil Bodhi View Post
    Rev. Jundo,

    Thanks for your reply! I read through those threads. Also, since I don't want to clog up the forum with new threads, could you quickly let me know what honorifics I should use when addressing you and junior unsui?

    _/|\_ with metta,

    Mike
    st
    Hi Mike,

    No particular honorific needed, thank you.

    I like to say that the Buddha was a man of Iron Age India, 2500 years ago, so spoke of the world in ways common to that time (his view of Rebirth had its own twists, but was not that different from ideas common in India at the time). Dogen spoke as a man of the 13th Century, trying to understanding the world as best they could in that day and ago. They might both have been wrong.

    (Yes, even the Buddha might have been wrong, despite the tendency in Buddhism to say that he had to be right about everything. I once had a fellow tell me that the Buddha, had he wanted, could have built a 777 back then because he knew everything. I doubt it. )

    Then again, I might be wrong.

    In any case, it does not matter in Zen Practice for two reasons:

    1 - In this life, fetch wood and carry water and do what needs to be done, be good and gentle whether there are other lives to come or not. This present moment is the pivot point of life and all Practice. If there are future lives, live gently now. If there are no future lives, live gently now. Do not create heavens and hells in this present world.

    2 - Even in classical Buddhism, rebirth was a mental delusion, created by our own ignorance, a kind of dream. The point of our Practice is to see through birth and death, realize that it is a mental creation, and thus become free. In his writings on the Fox Koan, Dogen observed that one can realize that there is ultimately no Rebirth when the mind can see through the mirage of Rebirth. Nonetheless, we should live in this world still aware of Karma, and that our actions have consequences, thus being responsible for our volitional acts. I once wrote this, if you are interested, Mike ...

    [According to many Teachings common in traditional Buddhism,] Rebirth is a dream, a self-created delusion ... like a child's belief in the "boogeyman under the bed." It is the false belief itself which makes him real as real can be (at least, for the child), and our own ignorance and divided thinking which sustain the existence. The "boogeyman" under such conditions is very real. When the lights come on, the "boogeyman" is gone, and was never there all along. Rebirth is likewise such a self-created dream made real in our minds. No birth no death no cause no effect no me no you, so who or what is there to be reborn? There are so many examples in the Mahayana texts ..

    Defilements, karmas, doers, rewards, and punishments are all similar to a mirage, a dream, a shadow of light and an echo of voice. (From the Twelve Gate Treatise attributed to Nagarjuna]
    https://books.google.co.jp/books?red...effect&f=false
    .
    ... and yet ...

    So long as we are alive in this life and world of you and me, our good and bad actions have effects. Karma is real, and I have seen countless people create "heavens" and "hells" for themselves, if not in some next life, then at least in this one. We are reborn again and again from the pivot point of each moment.

    Dogen also had a seemingly conflicting view of the Fox Koan, but was their conflict? Zen Masters often talk "out of both sides of their no sided mouth."

    On the one hand, in Shobogenzo-Daishugyo, he seemed to imply that there is nothing to escape from and even the Fox was free all along ... What "return"?

    As a rule, those who have never truly encountered or heard about the Buddha Dharma say, “After he had completely rid himself of the wild fox, he returned to the ocean of his Original Nature. Even though he was reduced to being a wild fox for a while due to his delusion, after he had had a great awakening, he shed being a wild fox and returned to his Original Nature.” They mean by this that he returned to some innate, unchanging self which non-Buddhists speak of. [But] this is not the Buddha Dharma. If they were to say that a wild fox is devoid of Original Nature or that a wild fox has no innate enlightenment, such [also] would not be the Buddha Dharma.
    He also wrote a few years later in Jinshin inga, critical of those who believe that ... since all is as a dream, how we act has no ramifications ...

    In present-day Sung China, among those doing the practice of seated meditation, the folks who are the most in the dark are those who do not know that the teaching of "not being subject to cause and effect" is a false view. Sad to say ... heretical gangs have formed who deny cause and effect. Those who are exploring the Matter through training with their Master should by all means hasten to make clear the fundamental principle of cause and effect. The later Hyakujō’s principle of not being blind to cause and effect means not ignoring the presence of causality. Hence, the underlying principle is clear: we feel the effects of the causes that we put into action.

    ... To summarize, the principle of cause and effect is quite clear, and it is totally impersonal [in its workings]: those who fabricate evil will fall into a lower state, whereas those who practice good will rise to a higher state, and without the slightest disparity. If cause and effect had become null and void, Buddhas would never have appeared in the world and our Ancestral Master [Bodhidharma] would not have come from the West.

    I say that it is all a dream, there is no fox or old Zen Master, no cause or effect, no rebirth and no place to return ... and yet, there are cause and effect and all ramifications. Live gently, live well.
    Anyway, enough for now ... I have weeds to pull in the garden today.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-15-2017 at 12:18 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Professsor View Post


    Check out Kokuu-san's reading of Shoji. He has a voice for narration!


    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.
    I will add this on Shoji, one of Dogen's most powerful pieces. Dogen (now dead ... but only in a manner of speaking!) had his own rather existentialist tune to play on the theme of life and death. It was something like "What birth what death? All is Buddha beyond birth and death! Yet there is birth and death! Birth and death are Buddha too! Even Buddha kicks the bucket! Do not think that life becomes death ... because when one is that is what is, life is life and death wholly death. So, don't look away and, when your time come to die, just drop dead or die trying!" This is from Shobogenzo-Shoji ... Birth and Death ...

    "Because a buddha is in birth and death, there is no birth and death."

    It is also said, "Because a buddha is not in birth and death, a buddha is not deluded by birth and death."

    These statements are the essence of the words of the two Zen masters Jiashan and Dingshan. You should certainly not neglect them, because they are the words of those who attained the way.

    2

    Those who want to be free from birth and death should understand the meaning of these words. If you search for a buddha outside birth and death, it will be like trying to go to the southern country of Yue with our spear heading towards the north, or like trying to see the Big Dipper while you are facing south; you will cause yourself to remain all the more in birth and death and lose the way of emancipation.

    Just understand that birth-and-death is itself nirvana. There is nothing such as birth and death to be avoided; there is nothing such as nirvana to be sought. Only when you realize this are you free from birth and death.

    3

    It is a mistake to suppose that birth turns into death. Birth is a phase that is an entire period of itself, with its own past and future.

    For this reason, in buddha-dharma birth is understood as no-birth.*

    Death is a phase that is an entire period of itself, with its own past

    and future. For this reason, death is understood as no-death.*

    In birth there is nothing but birth and in death there is nothing but death. Accordingly, when birth comes, face and actualize birth, and when death comes, face and actualize death. Do not avoid them or desire them.

    Birth and death as the experience of nirvana.

    4

    This birth and death is the life of buddha. If you try to exclude it you will lose the life of buddha. If you cling to it, trying to remain in it, you will also lose the life of buddha, and what remains will be the mere form of buddha. Only when you don’t dislike birth and death or long for them, do you enter buddha’s mind.

    However, do not analyze or speak about it. Just set aside your body and mind, forget about them, and throw them into the house of buddha; then all is done by buddha. When you follow this, you are free from birth and death and become a buddha without effort or calculation. Who then continues to think?

    5

    There is a simple way to become buddha: When you refrain from unwholesome actions, are not attached to birth and death, and are compassionate toward all sentient beings, respectful to seniors and kind to juniors, not excluding or desiring anything, with no designing thoughts or worries, you will be called a buddha. Do not seek anything else.
    And he wrote in Shobogenzo Genjo Koan ...

    Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.
    I might offer these as something like ...

    "When living, all is living, live fully cause your life depends on it ... when dying, die fully, die with all your heart ... pushing neither away ... Each is complete in itself, each and both are the whole of life".


    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  15. #15
    joke.jpg

    Oops, sorry, wrong photo.....

    sawaki death.jpg

    gassho,

    sat/LAH
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  16. #16
    When listening to Kokuu-san's reading, when he got to the part about firewood turn to ash, it ring so true that I felt as if I wanted to cry.

    Despite my job being to make dead people not dead, I know that very few actually every get a heat beat back and fewer keep it. A small part of my has always felt responsible for not being able to help, but after hearing Shoji, it was like a weight was lifted. Its okay if people die, we all have too.

    "Firewood becomes ash. Ash cannot turn back into firewood again. However, we should not view ash as after and firewood as before. We should know that firewood dwells in the dharma position of firewood and it has its own before and after. Although there is before and after, past and future are cut off. Ash stays at the position of ash and it has its own before and after. As firewood never becomes firewood again after it is burned and becomes ash, after person dies, there is no return to living.."

    Deep bows of gratitude.

    Simon.
    Not sat today as I'm on a night and its now tomorrow.



    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.
    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    joke.jpg

    Oops, sorry, wrong photo.....

    sawaki death.jpg

    gassho,

    sat/LAH


    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    joke.jpg

    Oops, sorry, wrong photo.....

    sawaki death.jpg

    gassho,

    sat/LAH

    Gassho
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  19. #19

  20. #20
    Eishuu
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Shokai View Post
    joke.jpg

    Oops, sorry, wrong photo.....

    sawaki death.jpg

    gassho,

    sat/LAH
     Made me laugh out loud!

    Gassho
    Lucy
    ST/LAH

  21. #21
    Thanks Jundo and all who contributed to this discussion.

    SAT today


    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  22. #22
    Hi Mike.

    I just wanted to say I'm sorry. You just died.

    And I want to say Happy Birthday! You just got born!

    And now I want to take a moment of silence because you just died.

    But at the same time... I'm glad you just born anew again! How cool is that?

    Every single moment you die and get born. You get multiple births all day long, giving you the chance to experience life in a much deep and wholesome manner.

    And so we sit because it's when we let go of questions that we can fathom it all.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH/Just died/Happy birthday to me/Just died/Boom! I'm here again!
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  23. #23
    I, too, have a different understanding of rebirth than that of the Buddha. But I have always wondered...I come from a religious background that includes all types of miraculous thinking (and I'm not using that phrase condescendingly, only in the sense that a miracle is something outside the normal laws of nature)...people rising from the dead, speaking languages they don't know, streets of gold... I sometimes wonder, have I dismissed the teaching of actual rebirth/reincarnation from one life to the next because it's not true, or simply because I don't want to be one of "those people" that believe magical things "like that?" I think it's a good question to mull over, especially for us reformed-religion Buddhists. Ultimately, does it matter when I sit zazen? No.

    Dan
    Sat today

  24. #24
    Thank you all for your reasoned replies. Ultimately, taking the Lord Buddha's teachings on rebirth to heart is a helpful tool for me on the Path. In the eyes of the Enlightened Ones, there is no birth or death but, until such time as I develop such an understanding and cross the flood I'll use the raft of this teaching. Wishing you all much happiness and contentment.

    "'If there is a world after death, if there is the fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then this is the basis by which, with the breakup of the body, after death, I will reappear in a good destination, a heavenly world.' This is the first assurance one acquires.

    "'But if there is no world after death, if there is no fruit of actions rightly & wrongly done, then here in the present life I look after myself with ease — free from hostility, free from ill will, free from trouble.' This is the second assurance one acquires.

    "'If evil is done through acting, still I have willed no evil for anyone. Having done no evil action, from where will suffering touch me?' This is the third assurance one acquires.

    "'But if no evil is done through acting, then I can assume myself pure in both respects.' This is the fourth assurance one acquires."
    — Anguttara Nikaya 3.65

    with metta,

    Mike
    st|lah
    To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
    -Dhp. 183
    My Practice Blog

  25. #25
    I get the feeling there's a rough consensus against reincarnation among Zen folks, which I find curious. Some of you express a bit of nervousness about the idea. I disagree. I believe we come into this life not as a blank slate, but carrying a lot of things with us, and I don't think death is final. I also wonder if Buddhism minus reincarnation equals therapy? Or is that too reductive?

    Theo
    Sat today

  26. #26
    I get the feeling there's a rough consensus against reincarnation among Zen folks, which I find curious. Some of you express a bit of nervousness about the idea.
    Hi Theo

    I find it is more a case that a lot of Zen folk are happy to have "don't know mind" when it comes to rebirth. I don't find much nervousness around the idea or denial that it is part of early Buddhist doctrine. It is just something that is essentially unknowable for most of us.

    I am, however, just a novice priest and my opinions should be taken with a large grain of salt.


    Gassho
    Kokuu
    -sattoday/lah-
    Last edited by Kokuu; 09-15-2017 at 09:27 PM.

  27. #27
    Novice priest "What happens after we die?"
    Zen master "How should I know?".
    Novice "But you're a Zen master?!"
    Master "True, but I'm not a dead one".



    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for the Sangha.
    Ask not what the Sangha can do for you, but what you can do for your Sangha.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshirt Buddhist View Post
    I get the feeling there's a rough consensus against reincarnation among Zen folks, which I find curious. Some of you express a bit of nervousness about the idea. I disagree. I believe we come into this life not as a blank slate, but carrying a lot of things with us, and I don't think death is final. I also wonder if Buddhism minus reincarnation equals therapy? Or is that too reductive?

    Theo
    Sat today
    Hi Theo,

    I think that there is a consensus among Zen folks, past and present, that what matters most is this life ... and the opportunity for liberation in this moment ... whether or not there are future lives after death. That was true for Dogen and Bodhidharma, it is true for us. For example, in the one piece of writing that scholars believe actually has a likelihood to have been written by Bodhidharma (or a student close to him) there is a clear belief in past lives, yet an emphasis on what happens as our reaction now in that light ...

    From "Treatise on the Two Entrances and Four Practices, attributed to Bodhidharma, Translated by John R. McRae

    When the practitioner of Buddhist spiritual training experiences suffering, he should think to himself: "For innumerable eons I have wandered through the various states of existence, forsaking the fundamental for the derivative, generating a great deal of enmity and distaste and bringing an unlimited amount of injury and discord upon others. My present suffering constitutes the fruition of my past crimes and karma, rather than anything bequeathed to me from any heavenly or human being. I shall accept it patiently and contentedly, without complaint." ...

    Sentient beings have no unchanging self and are entirely subject to the impact of their circumstances. Whether one experiences suffering or pleasure, both are generated from one's circumstances. If one experiences fame, fortune, and other forms of superior karmic retribution, this is the result of past causes. Although one may experience good fortune now, when the circumstances responsible for its present manifestation are exhausted, it will disappear. How could one take joy in good fortune? Since success and failure depend on circumstances, the mind should remain unchanged. It should be unmoved even by the winds of good fortune, but mysteriously in accordance with the Tao. Therefore, this is called the practice of acceptance of circumstances.
    https://terebess.hu/zen/bodhidharma-eng.html
    So, the pivot point of freedom is here and now, whatever the source of those circumstances.

    I do not believe that Buddhism without an emphasis on potential future post-mortem lives is "therapy," because the emphasis remains on ultimate liberation and nothing less, ever being Buddha, ever becoming Buddha, ever actuating Buddha in our words thoughts and acts.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH

    PS - What is one of the strongest arguments I know for possible post-mortem lives? For me, it is that life happened even once, despite all the seeming odds against it and all the factors ... of physics, chemistry, biology, history and simple chance ... that were necessary for my birth to have happened even once. If such a ridiculous event might have happened once, it ridiculously might as well happen again.

    In the Mahaparinirvana Sutra, the Buddha used the metaphor of a blind turtle in a vast ocean to explain how difficult it is to be reborn as a human being and at the same time to have the chance of hearing the Dharma.

    Suppose there is a small piece of wood floating on a vast ocean. The wood has a small hole the size of which is just enough for the head of a turtle to pop into. There is a long-lived sea turtle in the ocean. Once every one hundred years, this turtle comes out from the bottom of the ocean and pops his head into the hole of the wood.

    To be able to hear the Dharma is just as hard as for the blind turtle to encounter the small piece of wood on a vast ocean and let its head go through the hole in the wood piece.
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-16-2017 at 10:13 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  29. #29
    Member Seishin's Avatar
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    La Croix-Avranchin, Basse Normandie, France
    This has been a wonderful thread to follow. Having only been practicing for a year and with limited knowledge, I am now getting a clearer sense of rebirth, to me anyway.

    I never subscribed to the rebirth through reincarnation, life after death, heaven & hell scenario but as Jundo often states, if I do little or no harm in this life I guess I'll be OK if I'm wrong.

    What I have come to believe in over the last 12 months is that rebirth is a moment by moment experience. Right here right now and the next now. Understanding the different realms, I can recognize my transmigration through them, throughout the day. Its just the daily ups and downs of life and I guess the trick is to be aware and extricate yourself for those damaging realms.

    My 2 cents.

    On the Firewood & Ash analogy. I also look at it this way.

    The firewood burns and creates ash.
    Firewood is firewood ash is ash
    Ash is also a good fertilizer
    Ash as fertilizer allows a tree to grow
    Once mature the tree is harvested for firewood
    The firewood burns and ................

    Is this not rebirth? Just a thought. Too many of them this first week of Ango and Jukai.

    Back to my logs.

    Std

    Toby

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    Last edited by Seishin; 09-16-2017 at 10:11 AM.


    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  30. #30
    Eishuu
    Guest
    I used to believe in reincarnation.

    Now I mostly think, I understand so little what this thing called 'life' is so what chance have I of understanding death? I'm never going to 'understand' it from my current dualistic way of thinking. So I feel it's best for me to keep practising to understand/experience this moment fully and hopefully that will take care of it. To be honest, I have a sense that I'm not really 'alive' or 'here' in the way I think I am, so from that point of view I'm kind of already 'dead'.

    Toby, I liked what you said about transmigrating the various realms throughout the day. I've noticed my mind doing this more over the last few days, although I hadn't been thinking of it in terms of realms, so that's helpful. My mind seems to be able to fall into them and switch between them rapidly...it's fascinating. It's like it goes off on little adventures...

    Gassho
    Lucy
    ST/LAH

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Seishin-Do View Post
    ...
    On the Firewood & Ash analogy. I also look at it this way.

    The firewood burns and creates ash.
    Firewood is firewood ash is ash
    Ash is also a good fertilizer
    Ash as fertilizer allows a tree to grow
    Once mature the tree is harvested for firewood
    The firewood burns and ................

    Is this not rebirth? Just a thought. Too many of them this first week of Ango and Jukai.

    Back to my logs.

    Std

    Toby

    Sent from my MID2809 using Tapatalk
    Thanks Toby.

    I am also moving quite some wood around, these days.

    The atoms of my body, the carbon I exhale.
    The tree takes it all, from all of us, without distinction.
    Grows from it, makes sugar and starch and it's own body.
    Feeds us with it's fruits. Warms us with it's wood.
    Keeps us alive with our oxygen.
    We are not separate from each other and not from the tree.
    What is there to be born again?

    The more I sit, the more I feel that I don't need to know and in a way, it doesn't matter.

    Gassho,
    Kotei sat/lah today.
    Last edited by Kotei; 09-16-2017 at 11:20 AM.

    義道 冴庭 / Gidō Kotei.
    Being a novice priest doesn't mean my writing about the Dharma is more substantial than yours. Actually, it might well be the other way round.

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy View Post
    To be honest, I have a sense that I'm not really 'alive' or 'here' in the way I think I am, so from that point of view I'm kind of already 'dead'.


    Gassho
    Lucy
    ST/LAH
    Well stated, Lucy, same with me. It's doesn't feel fatalistic, depressing, or mystical....just interesting.

    Dan
    Sat today


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  33. #33
    I used to wonder and worry and look for theories. But I don't think about it very much anymore. If there was something before this, I don't remember it. So I don't worry about that. If something happens after this, I'm guessing it's the same sort of thing. Either way, I still have to get through today and that's plenty of work in itself.
    Gassho,
    Entai
    St /lah

    泰 Entai (Bill)
    "this is not a dress rehearsal"

  34. #34
    Member Seishin's Avatar
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    Aug 2016
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    Wonderful Kotei.

    std

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    Seishin

    Sei - Meticulous
    Shin - Heart

  35. #35
    I feel really grateful for this sangha. A question starts to form in your mind, and you do a search and there is so much wisdom and considered guidance to draw on.

    Thank you

    Gassho

    Sat today

  36. #36
    Interesting discussion on how folks view this topic. Thank you. I will state from the start when I first heard of Buddhism and reincarnation a half century or more ago, in my youth of body and mind, I doubted it very strongly.

    Now, all I know (but then maybe I should add but I don’t “know” ) is when I die my ashes will be spread in a mountain range that brought me much joy during my life (which reminds me that the next time my son visits I need to show him where ) My vision is that my molecules are absorbed by plants, then consumed by animals, then consumed by other animals and they will soar into the clouds, slither across the ground and hop into the woods. Then it repeats, and repeats again, in an ever increasing interconnectedness and so forth as it has always been and will be. That is the rebirth I am after. A long time ago I was at a retreat with Thich Nhat Hahn and he said something similar (of course more concisely and he referred to a flower) and I thought yep as I smiled. But then maybe I did not understand him Other than that, I don’t think on this much, my time now is the chopping wood and carrying water advocated around here. Reading this thread this morning allowed me to revisit this matter of importance and brought a smile of contentment.

    Gassho

    Doshin
    Stlah
    Last edited by Doshin; 10-08-2018 at 01:53 PM.

  37. #37
    When you smile, the whole universe smiiles. When you cry, the whole universe cries.

    When you are born, the whole universe is born as you in this time and place. When you die, the whole universe dies.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    When you smile, the whole universe smiiles. When you cry, the whole universe cries.

    When you are born, the whole universe is born as you in this time and place. When you die, the whole universe dies.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Yep!



    Doshin
    Stlah

  39. #39
    When you Yep! the whole universe Yeps!
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  40. #40
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    When you Yep! the whole universe Yeps!


    Gassho
    Shingen

    Sat/LAH

  41. #41
    The only heavens and hells which I am aware of are those which we create within our own minds, believe to be true, then proceed to inflict upon ourselves and each other.
    If you believe in rebirth, I would suggest that you practice the Noble Eightfold Path, as it accrues spiritual merit leading to an auspicious rebirth.
    If you don't believe in rebirth, I would suggest that you practice the Noble Eightfold Path, as it demonstrably leads to the amelioration of suffering in this life.

    "For sixty years I have wandered through the various states of existence, forsaking the fundamental for the derivative, generating a great deal of enmity and distaste and bringing an unlimited amount of injury and discord upon others. My present suffering constitutes the fruition of my past crimes and karma, rather than anything bequeathed to me from any heavenly or human being. I shall accept it patiently and contentedly, without complaint...."

    Simple, straightforward, and empirically demonstrable cause & effect, sans magical thinking, mysticism, and hocus pocus.

    Sat today.
    Last edited by Emmet; 10-08-2018 at 02:55 PM.
    Emmet

  42. #42
    Gassho Emmit,

    James F
    Sat

    Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

  43. #43
    Thank you Emmet , absolutely beautiful.

    Sat today

  44. #44
    Thanks Emmet. I do love how Bodhidharma just gets to the crux of the matter! He is my go to at the moment.

    Gassho

    Sat today

  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Emmet View Post

    "For sixty years I have wandered through the various states of existence, forsaking the fundamental for the derivative, generating a great deal of enmity and distaste and bringing an unlimited amount of injury and discord upon others. My present suffering constitutes the fruition of my past crimes and karma, rather than anything bequeathed to me from any heavenly or human being. I shall accept it patiently and contentedly, without complaint...."
    Just to clarify the record, as far as I can tell, the original begins: ""For innumerable eons I have wandered through the various states of existence ... "

    Of course, every moment is all time, and an instant or 60 years is "innumerable eons," so no telling just how long or short that is either.

    It is from the "Treatise on the Two Entrances and Four Practices," maybe the only writing attributed to Bodhidharma that, historians believe, actually has a good possibility of actually being by Bodhidharma or someone in his close circle and not another author.

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post227951

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 10-11-2018 at 12:26 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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