Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: The True Nature of the Body

  1. #1

    The True Nature of the Body

    I was wondering if there are any discourses or contemplations on the the of loathsomeness of the body in Soto Zen. The Lord Buddha recommended so-called asubha meditations and contemplations like those described in Venerable Samahita Bhikkhu's video here:



    Gassho,

    Mike
    sat today
    Last edited by Khalil Bodhi; 09-13-2017 at 12:15 AM.
    To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
    -Dhp. 183
    My Practice Blog

  2. #2
    The way he laughs after he says "flesh on flesh" is classic.

    Dan
    Sat today

  3. #3
    Hi Khalil,

    The Buddha did not offer the same advice to monastics and to householders on sex. The Buddha knew that if the householders were celibate and not engaged in "out in the world" commercial and other activities, the Sangha (and the whole human race!) would disappear in a generation and their would be no means of economic support of the Sangha.

    Also, Indian (so called "Hinayana" Small Vehicle) South Asian Buddhism had an emphasis on rejection and suppression of emotions, disgust with the world and withdrawal from daily life, and rejection of the body and its natural functions (including sexual urges, heard in the video I feel when Bhante Samahita calls the body "ugly pork sausages" and "bags of pus and excrement" and the like) that transformed as Buddhism came north into China, and especially into Japan.

    As I spoke about in my "Ango" Talk this week (link), monastics (for obvious reasons) have had a tendency through the centuries to say that monasticism is the only real place of practice. They obviously have reasons to say that, living that lifestyle themselves. However, the historical Buddha never said that (he said the practice out in the world was the harder practice, not impossible), and Zen folks and Mahayana Buddhists in general have always emphasized the possibilities for liberation "out in the world."

    In China, with the Mahayana, there was a greater emphasis on transcending and balancing the human desires and emotions rather than rejection and complete cooling (although monastics continue to be celibate), more earthiness and acceptance of this life and the world. On is in the world, feeling and savoring emotions, yet simultaneously seeing beyond, not bound and trapped by this world and its emotions. In Japan, it became even more so, with priests now overwhelmingly married with kids (with the emphasis now on having wholesome, healthy relationships), and Zen's emphasis on realization in this life and in this world. The body is not to be rejected, but honored and treated well. Tibetans also seem to have very mixed attitudes toward sex, sometimes rejecting and sometimes accepting.

    So, no, there is no particular practice recommended of sitting, contemplating how loathsome is the body. The body is our temple, to be respected and handled with care. The one exception is, I would think, if someone had a problem of excess such as a sex or porno addiction. In that case, with the lack of balance, excess and other unhealthful aspects, we might encourage someone to think about how loathsome the body is as a counter-measure (besides recommending that they seek psychological counseling for the mental issues involved). When young trainees are in the monastery (usually for only a period of a few months to a couple of years), they are expected to be celibate (in theory). Like boot camp in the military, it is cold shower time. However, outside the monastery, priests date and marry.

    The question of porno is difficult, and my Dharma Bro. Brad Warner has written about it sometimes with former porn actress (and daughter of the late noted Zen Teachers from the San Francisco Zen Center, Blanche and Lou Hartman, where she was raised) Nina Hartley

    https://www.suicidegirls.com/girls/e.../nina-hartley/

    The point Nina (who was apparently a porn actress for many years) and Brad make is that being a "sex worker" is a voluntary choice for many in the industry, and not always a situation of abuse and economic oppression as many describe. In many countries outside the US, prostitution is more accepted and often regulated. I do not know if I accept these arguments myself. I recently watched two documentaries called "After Porn" of interviews with former actors and actresses in the adult film business, and they seem to have very mixed feelings about what they did, not negative for many. However, I tend to think that the situation is not so clear for less "elite" people in the industry (and even for many of them), especially at the lower ends of the sex industry. Prostitution, the world's oldest profession, existed in Buddha's day, Dogen's day and exists in modern Asia (Thailand, for example, one of the world's most Buddhist countries, is also a country with a very open sex industry). In some of the old Suttas, Buddha seems to accept financial support from working concubines and such, while accepting their profession without particular moral judgment.

    http://www.palikanon.com/english/pal...ambapaalii.htm

    Chinese Master Shengyen touches on this in footnote 6 here ...

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...0sutta&f=false

    My own feeling is that, while human sexual need is not to be rejected, it must be handled like fire (good for light and cooking when properly handled, but easy to burn one if out of control). I believe that some sex workers may be there by choice and free will, and not find their profession abusive, but perhaps the vast majority are subject to abuse, violence, human trafficking, drugs and other addictions and the like, and that is wrong.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday

    PS - I too chuckled when Bhante Samahita called sex "bacon bungy jumping"
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-13-2017 at 02:02 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4

    The True Nature of the Body

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Khalil,

    The Buddha did not offer the same advice to monastics and to householders on sex. The Buddha knew that if the householders were celibate and not engaged in "out in the world" commercial and other activities, the Sangha (and the whole human race!) would disappear in a generation and their would be no means of economic support of the Sangha.

    Also, Indian (so called "Hinayana" Small Vehicle) South Asian Buddhism had an emphasis on rejection and suppression of emotions, disgust with the world and withdrawal from daily life, and rejection of the body and its natural functions (including sexual urges) that transformed as Buddhism came north into China, and especially into Japan.

    As I spoke about in my "Ango" Talk this week, monastics (for obvious reasons) have had a tendency through the centuries to say that monasticism is the only real place of practice. They obviously have reasons to say that, living that lifestyle themselves. However, the historical Buddha never said that (he said the practice out in the world was the harder practice, not impossible), and Zen folks and Mahayana Buddhism in general have always emphasized the possibilities for liberation "out in the world."

    In China, with the Mahayana, there was a greater emphasis on transcending and balancing the human desires and emotions rather than rejection and complete cooling (although monastics continue to be celibate), more earthiness and acceptance of this life and the world. In Japan, it became even more so, with priests now overwhelmingly married with kids (with the emphasis now on wholesome, healthy relationships), and Zen's emphasis on realization in this life and in this world. The body is not to be rejected, but honored and treated well. Tibetans also seem to have very mixed attitudes toward sex, sometimes rejecting and sometimes accepting.

    So, no, there is no particular practice recommended of sitting, contemplating how loathsome is the body. The body is our temple, to be respected and handled with care. The one exception is, I would think, if someone had a problem of excess such as a sex or porno addiction. In that case, with the lack of balance, excess and other unhealthful aspects, we might encourage someone to think about how loathsome the body is as a counter-measure (besides recommending that they seek psychological counseling for the mental issues involved). When young trainees are in the monastery (usually for only a period of a few months to a couple of years), they are expected to be celibate (in theory). Like boot camp in the military, it is cold shower time. However, outside the monastery, priests date and marry.

    The question of porno is difficult, and my Dharma Bro. Brad Warner has written about it sometimes with former porn actress (and daughter of the late noted Zen Teachers from the San Francisco Zen Center, Blanche and Lou Hartman, where she was raised) Nina Hartley

    https://www.suicidegirls.com/girls/e.../nina-hartley/

    The point Nina (who was apparently a porn actress for many years) and Brad make is that being a "sex worker" is a voluntary choice for many in the industry, and not always a situation of abuse and economic oppression as many describe. In many countries outside the US, prostitution is more accepted and often regulated. I do not know if I accept these arguments myself. I recently watched two documentaries called "After Porn" of interviews with former actors and actresses in the adult film business, and they seem to have very mixed feelings about what they did, not negative for many. However, I tend to think that the situation is not so clear for less "elite" people in the industry (and even for many of them), especially at the lower ends of the sex industry. Prostitution, the world's oldest profession, existed in Buddha's day, Dogen's day and exists in modern Asia (Thailand, for example, one of the world's most Buddhist countries, is also a country with a very open sex industry). In some of the old Suttas, Buddha seems to accept financial support from working concubines and such, while accepting their profession without particular moral judgment.

    http://www.palikanon.com/english/pal...ambapaalii.htm

    Chinese Master Shengyen touches on this in footnote 6 here ...

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...0sutta&f=false

    My own feeling is that, while human sexual need is not to be rejected, it must be handled like fire (good for light and cooking when properly handled, but easy to burn one if out of control). I believe that some sex workers may be there by choice and free will, and not find their profession abusive, but perhaps the vast majority are subject to abuse, violence, human trafficking, drugs and other addictions and the like, and that is wrong.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Thank you Rev. Jundo for you thoughtful reply. For myself, I find the asubha practices as presented in Theravada to be extremely helpful as one perspective amongst many to be picked up, used and put down again add conditions and circumstances warrant. I was wondering if Soto Zen had its own spin on them. That it doesn't is no issue at all.

    Gassho,

    Mike
    Sat Today / LaH


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
    -Dhp. 183
    My Practice Blog

  5. #5
    This is interesting, and I think contemplating the body goes beyond sex as well. Realizing that we are a "skin bag," subject to the same arising and passing away that all things are, is, I think, part of realizing one's true nature. Pleasure, pain, illness, all the things we experience in the body, and our reactions to them, are part of practice, even just the itch that drives you crazy when you're sitting. Hopefully a comprehension of oneness helps dissolve the perception of either loathsomeness or holiness, repulsion or attraction, toward an experience of... just what is?

    Gassho
    Byōkan
    sat today
    Last edited by Byokan; 09-12-2017 at 11:11 PM.
    展道 渺寛 Tendō Byōkan
    Please take my words with a big grain of salt. I know nothing. Wisdom is only found in our whole-hearted practice together.

  6. #6
    Joyo
    Guest
    This was a simple topic for my mother to talk to me about it was just no, no, no, no, stay away from it, it's bad, and cover your body up so men can't lust after you because that is a shame. lol!! With my own kids close to approaching the teenage year, I would like to give a more realistic view, because that approach is very unhealthy.

    I really appreciate your thoughts on this Jundo as they are way more realistic and following the middle way.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today/lah

  7. #7
    It is very interesting to me, near the end after walking through all those beautiful mountains, where he says that (paraphrase, about 24:00) "Even attachment to this beautiful nature, "nature porn", has to be relinquished. It is merely a nice stepping stone."

    Zen folks always have traditionally appreciated mother nature and human nature, while seeing through to True Nature, in nature and savoring nature yet not bound by our worst aspects and excesses of human nature. We find True Nature in the green hills or in the noisy marketplace. Personally, for my Buddhist Practice, I like that better than trying to leave all sense experiences and emotional reactions behind. I am happy to be human, so long as I am also (as Zen folks say) realizing the "True Person of No Rank, coming in and out of these senses").

    As Byokan says above, "a comprehension of oneness helps dissolve the perception of either loathsomeness or holiness, repulsion or attraction, toward an experience of... just what is ..."

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH

    PS - The Last of the famous Ten Oxherding Picture, the Zen adept's Return to the Marketplace ...

    Last edited by Jundo; 09-13-2017 at 02:26 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  8. #8
    Treeleaf Priest / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Quote Originally Posted by Byokan View Post
    This is interesting, and I think contemplating the body goes beyond sex as well. Realizing that we are a "skin bag," subject to the same arising and passing away that all things are, is, I think, part of realizing one's true nature. Pleasure, pain, illness, all the things we experience in the body, and our reactions to them, are part of practice, even just the itch that drives you crazy when you're sitting. Hopefully a comprehension of oneness helps dissolve the perception of either loathsomeness or holiness, repulsion or attraction, toward an experience of... just what is?
    And yet somehow this skinbag is how the ineffable manifests in this moment. What a wonderful mystery!

    Deep bows to all,
    Sekishi #sat
    Sekishi | 石志 | He/him | Better with a grain of salt, but best ignored entirely.

  9. #9
    Hi,

    It is a basic human drive. All have it. Without it, no Buddha.

    It's not a problem unless it's a problem. Just like everything else. If it takes away from day to day participation in life then maybe it's not the way. That said, one may have a very high biological sex drive. This is not optional. It is what it is. Simple biology. An evolutional advantage until recently. Libidinal impulses will be discharged. Porn addiction vs discharge of libidinal drives some other way? Some other way could be an affair with your wife. Take your pick.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

    PS: I doubt all the monks suppressed their libidinal drive in the monestary. It's just the way it is.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post

    PS: I doubt all the monks suppressed their libidinal drive in the monestary. It's just the way it is.
    There was, throughout Asia, a lot more "bending the rules" (and bending over of the monks ) then we recognize. It may have been a "technical" violation of the Vinaya Rules, but probably throughout history people tended to look the other way.

    For example, I just read this about Tibet ...

    Homosexuality, Marriage, and Religion in Tibet: An Endlessly Complicated Situation
    https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/homo...ted-situation/

    ... Even [the Vinaya] isn’t a particularly reliable source for sussing out the root of the Dalai Lama’s or other monk’s notions about proper sexual conduct, because actually most of these ideas come not from Vinaya directly but from later (sometimes much, much later) commentaries by authorative monks of the Indo-Tibetan tradition. Few of these texts are available in English. Furthermore, monks as a practical matter don’t typically follow the Vinaya itself, but focus instead on the codes of conduct of their particular monasteries, which not only diverge significantly from the Vinaya but are different from monastery to monastery. And to top it all off, much of your average Tibetan’s attitudes are derived from general cultural wisdom about such things, in the same manner that your average Westerner is influenced not merely by ancient religious texts but a whole stew of culturally-conditioned “common sense” notions, pop culture trends, regional orientations, and so on.

    But what can we say about monks and homosexuality? Gay monks were common in traditional Tibet (and every other Buddhist culture) and were an accepted part of society, without there being any legal form of “gay marriage” or indeed any modern concept of “homosexual orientation.” We can see this for instance in the public popularity of drombos. Drombo is a Tibetan term for a passive homosexual partner, often someone in a close relationship with a monk. Tibetan socio-religious attitudes considered penetration to be unacceptable violation of monastic celibacy rules, whether or not the persons involved were same or opposite gender. So the commonly-accepted workaround was for a monk to form a relationship with a drombo, who might be a younger monk or someone from the society at large (the dancers of the Dalai Lama’s personal troupe were considered especially desirable as drombo). Instead of oral or anal sex in the usual Western mode, drombo and their monastic patrons engaged in a modified form of the missionary position–the drombo lay on his back with his thighs crossed, and the monk ejaculated by moving his penis back and forth between them. No penetration, hence no violation of the rules.

    Far from being an underground practice, this was a socially accepted form of interaction between males, and had no relationship to sexual or personal identity as such. While the monks in the active roles were frequently gay in the sense that Westerners now understand the term, the drombo himself often had no sexual attraction to men. Rather, the drombo received patronage from the monk, something very important in the heirarchical society of traditional Tibet. A drombo became the ward of his patron and would often receive substantial benefit to his career and status through this association (i.e. a “heterosexual” male drombo serving as a passive homosexual partner received not stigma but overt social benefit). That drombos were steered through Tibetan social circles by their patrons demonstrates the entirely above-the-board nature of these same-sex relationships: everyone knew that the drombo was being supported by monk so-and-so precisely because he was a drombo, and this was seen as perfectly natural. In fact, sometimes a drombo would become so well-known as a lover that various high-placed monks would fight over him, even sending subordinate warrior monks (dobdobs) out to kidnap him in order to force the drombo to switch to a new patron.
    In Japan, a very similar story ...

    http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com...sexuality.html

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  11. #11
    Well, dry humping makes for a good story but that's not what happened. We will go this far but no further...

    Anyway, time to tackle the day!

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  12. #12
    "Tibetan socio-religious attitudes considered penetration to be unacceptable violation of monastic celibacy rules, whether or not the persons involved were same or opposite gender. So the commonly-accepted workaround was for a monk to form a relationship with a drombo, who might be a younger monk or someone from the society at large (the dancers of the Dalai Lama’s personal troupe were considered especially desirable as drombo). Instead of oral or anal sex in the usual Western mode, drombo and their monastic patrons engaged in a modified form of the missionary position–the drombo lay on his back with his thighs crossed, and the monk ejaculated by moving his penis back and forth between them. No penetration, hence no violation of the rules."

    Wow. After that description I believe my porn addiction has been cured for good.

    Dan
    Sat today

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by danieldodson View Post
    "Tibetan socio-religious attitudes considered penetration to be unacceptable violation of monastic celibacy rules, whether or not the persons involved were same or opposite gender. So the commonly-accepted workaround was for a monk to form a relationship with a drombo, who might be a younger monk or someone from the society at large (the dancers of the Dalai Lama’s personal troupe were considered especially desirable as drombo). Instead of oral or anal sex in the usual Western mode, drombo and their monastic patrons engaged in a modified form of the missionary position–the drombo lay on his back with his thighs crossed, and the monk ejaculated by moving his penis back and forth between them. No penetration, hence no violation of the rules."

    Wow. After that description I believe my porn addiction has been cured for good.

    Dan
    Sat today
    Hmmm. I do not think that we should make fun of or criticize how someone chooses to make love in any way, and that was not my intent. The point was merely that not all monks have been celibate over the centuries, and some have found ingenious ways to escape technical violations of the rules.

    I think it very good, in my view anyway, that Japanese monks can now marry (similar to the change in Christianity when Protestant clergy could marry unlike the Catholic priests). And if someone wishes to be celibate, I believe that is good for them, and they should walk that Path.

    By the way, unfortunately, in these current times, I do not think it would generally be socially accepted for a Japanese Buddhist priest to openly be homosexual or otherwise LGBT, and Gay Marriage is still a dream here in Japan (some local governments have taken a few small steps in that direction). It is possible that temple parishioners would accept an LGBT priest if they knew him/her very well, and if he/she was discreet in behavior. But, by and large, Japan still is very conservative in such matters, and there would be much pressure on the priest to keep it secret.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    Last edited by Jundo; 09-13-2017 at 02:42 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hmmm. I do not think that we should make fun of or criticize how someone chooses to make love in any way, and that was not my intent. The point was merely that not all monks have been celibate over the centuries, and some have found ingenious ways to escape technical violations of the rules.

    I think it very good, in my view anyway, that Japanese monks can now marry (similar to the change in Christianity when Protestant clergy could marry unlike the Catholic priests). And if someone wishes to be celibate, I believe that is good for them, and they should walk that Path.

    By the way, unfortunately, in these current times, I do not think it would generally be socially accepted for a Japanese Buddhist priest to openly be homosexual, and Gay Marriage is still a dream here in Japan (some local governments have taken a few small steps in that direction). It is possible that temple parishioners would accept a gay priest if they knew him very well, and if he was discreet in the relationship. But, by and large, Japan still is very conservative in such matters, and there would be much pressure on the priest to keep it secret.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    It wasn't my intent either to "make fun" (and if anyone was offended, I sincerely apologize)...only that was quite a graphic description. I actually occasionally attend a Christian church that I respect and support, mainly for their advocacy for the disadvantaged, minorities, and the LGBTQ community.

    Dan
    Sat today

  15. #15
    I think one Supreme Court Judge clearly defined pornography as:

    "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

    Some things are just hard to figure out.

    Gassho, Jishin, ST

  16. #16
    The problem for me with porn is not just how the people in the industry are treated but the knock-on effect of how sex and sexual relationships are portrayed on societal norms. Studies have already been done on how most young men, and a lot of women, get much of their knowledge of sex from internet pornography. In this, women are mostly portrayed as submissive and sexually available. Their own needs are often ignored. Boys now expect certain things of girls that they did not in the past based on this experience. There is also evidence that boys and men require greater stimulation because of their porn habits. I have heard of this anecdotally from younger women too whose young boyfriends are just not aroused enough by a 'normal' woman engaging in 'normal' sexual behaviour.

    Prostitution is more difficult for me as a topic as I am mostly in favour of the consensual exchange of sex for money. However, it is certainly true that women who have little other way of making a decent living get pulled into that, and the role of sex trafficking is well documented. Women trafficked to the UK from eastern Europe and Asia are in debt to their traffickers and promised conventional jobs turn out to be non-existent leaving them to work in the sex industry in order to pay back their money. Sex work is also a dangerous profession with many women, and men, who work as prostitutes suffering both physical and sexual assault. Some of the laws around prostitution make this worse by not allowing women to work together in a flat.

    Having given advice on sex and relationships to both male and female teens (my children) I can say that I fear far more for my girls. My son will be taught about consent and what it looks like. Porn, and pop songs, blur the lines on this, and we see in countries like America that even rapists often don't get the punishment they deserve giving men more of a sense of their value compared to women.

    Well, that is my rant over but as someone with teenagers, this is something that bothers me a lot. Healthy sexuality (in terms of affection between consenting adults of whatever form or combination of genders) doesn't worry me. The form it is currently taking in western society concerns me greatly.

    Deep bows
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-

  17. #17
    Mp
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    The problem for me with porn is not just how the people in the industry are treated but the knock-on effect of how sex and sexual relationships are portrayed on societal norms. Studies have already been done on how most young men, and a lot of women, get much of their knowledge of sex from internet pornography. In this, women are mostly portrayed as submissive and sexually available. Their own needs are often ignored. Boys now expect certain things of girls that they did not in the past based on this experience. There is also evidence that boys and men require greater stimulation because of their porn habits. I have heard of this anecdotally from younger women too whose young boyfriends are just not aroused enough by a 'normal' woman engaging in 'normal' sexual behaviour.

    Prostitution is more difficult for me as a topic as I am mostly in favour of the consensual exchange of sex for money. However, it is certainly true that women who have little other way of making a decent living get pulled into that, and the role of sex trafficking is well documented. Women trafficked to the UK from eastern Europe and Asia are in debt to their traffickers and promised conventional jobs turn out to be non-existent leaving them to work in the sex industry in order to pay back their money. Sex work is also a dangerous profession with many women, and men, who work as prostitutes suffering both physical and sexual assault. Some of the laws around prostitution make this worse by not allowing women to work together in a flat.

    Having given advice on sex and relationships to both male and female teens (my children) I can say that I fear far more for my girls. My son will be taught about consent and what it looks like. Porn, and pop songs, blur the lines on this, and we see in countries like America that even rapists often don't get the punishment they deserve giving men more of a sense of their value compared to women.

    Well, that is my rant over but as someone with teenagers, this is something that bothers me a lot. Healthy sexuality (in terms of affection between consenting adults of whatever form or combination of genders) doesn't worry me. The form it is currently taking in western society concerns me greatly.

    Deep bows
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    Nicely said Kokuu, thank you this!

    Gassho
    Shingen

    SatToday/LAH

  18. #18
    Joyo
    Guest
    Thank you, Kokuu. I have the same concerns about Western views, and for the same reasons.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today/lah

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    The problem for me with porn is not just how the people in the industry are treated but the knock-on effect of how sex and sexual relationships are portrayed on societal norms. Studies have already been done on how most young men, and a lot of women, get much of their knowledge of sex from internet pornography. In this, women are mostly portrayed as submissive and sexually available. Their own needs are often ignored. Boys now expect certain things of girls that they did not in the past based on this experience. There is also evidence that boys and men require greater stimulation because of their porn habits. I have heard of this anecdotally from younger women too whose young boyfriends are just not aroused enough by a 'normal' woman engaging in 'normal' sexual behaviour.

    Prostitution is more difficult for me as a topic as I am mostly in favour of the consensual exchange of sex for money. However, it is certainly true that women who have little other way of making a decent living get pulled into that, and the role of sex trafficking is well documented. Women trafficked to the UK from eastern Europe and Asia are in debt to their traffickers and promised conventional jobs turn out to be non-existent leaving them to work in the sex industry in order to pay back their money. Sex work is also a dangerous profession with many women, and men, who work as prostitutes suffering both physical and sexual assault. Some of the laws around prostitution make this worse by not allowing women to work together in a flat.

    Having given advice on sex and relationships to both male and female teens (my children) I can say that I fear far more for my girls. My son will be taught about consent and what it looks like. Porn, and pop songs, blur the lines on this, and we see in countries like America that even rapists often don't get the punishment they deserve giving men more of a sense of their value compared to women.

    Well, that is my rant over but as someone with teenagers, this is something that bothers me a lot. Healthy sexuality (in terms of affection between consenting adults of whatever form or combination of genders) doesn't worry me. The form it is currently taking in western society concerns me greatly.

    Deep bows
    Kokuu
    -sattoday-
    I think this is right on, Kokuu. Thank you.

    It is very much like, in our consumer culture, constant bombardment with media and advertisement creates bloated desires for all kinds of things ... new tennis shoes, fancy cars ... that we really don't need (foot covering and basic transportation, yes, but not all the hype). Likewise, to make those tennis shoes in sweatshops, there is untold exploitation.

    The Mahayana Buddhists may be more open to sex, but the emphasis remains on building healthy, mutually beneficial relationships (especially these days, as Buddhism leaves the values of unequal societies behind, and moves to a world in which sexual equality and human rights are more valued). Nothing wrong with enjoying sex, but do so ... as with eating food ... in a way that is truly nutritious, good for you, with some substance ... not in excess of quantity or too much empty calories of fast food junk. Nothing wrong with enjoying sex, but do so in a way that avoids hurting others and oneself (not two, by the way).

    Well spoken, Kokuu.

    Gassho, J

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  20. #20


    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday/LAH

  21. #21
    Hi all,

    I saw the video but refrained from commenting until sitting with this. I have read about how Theravada monks refrain from handling money or even talking to women and I understand why they do that. I even had a Theravada monk friend who was traveling through Mexico and it was a challenge for him because of all those barriers they impose on themselves.

    I think compassion is a key element for our practice. Just as we are compassionate towards others, we should begin practicing it from within us and for ourselves. That means to be aware of all our excesses and compulsions. With compassion and by living by the Precepts we can stop harmful behaviors. That goes for Netflix watching, food and sex, of course.

    We are humans, living organisms that have to do what living organisms do in order to preserve the species. We also have developed this mind that lead us to have a civilization. But in the package also come rules, ethics and morality.

    And as Buddhist we also have to always check our actions with the Precepts. Addictions are in conflict with our precept of abstaining from intoxicating the mind.

    Compassion to ourselves is a great help to overcome addictions or not to even begin developing one.

    I don't think the body is loathsome or dirty or rotten or anything of the like. It's part of nature, part of a bigger living being. Our body is our vehicle to navigate life and our means to be of service to all sentient beings.

    We live in a human world full of human stuff. So we live a human life, but at the same time acting with compassion.

    But as always, I might be totally wrong.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    Hi all,

    I saw the video but refrained from commenting until sitting with this. I have read about how Theravada monks refrain from handling money or even talking to women and I understand why they do that. I even had a Theravada monk friend who was traveling through Mexico and it was a challenge for him because of all those barriers they impose on themselves.

    I think compassion is a key element for our practice. Just as we are compassionate towards others, we should begin practicing it from within us and for ourselves. That means to be aware of all our excesses and compulsions. With compassion and by living by the Precepts we can stop harmful behaviors. That goes for Netflix watching, food and sex, of course.

    We are humans, living organisms that have to do what living organisms do in order to preserve the species. We also have developed this mind that lead us to have a civilization. But in the package also come rules, ethics and morality.

    And as Buddhist we also have to always check our actions with the Precepts. Addictions are in conflict with our precept of abstaining from intoxicating the mind.

    Compassion to ourselves is a great help to overcome addictions or not to even begin developing one.

    I don't think the body is loathsome or dirty or rotten or anything of the like. It's part of nature, part of a bigger living being. Our body is our vehicle to navigate life and our means to be of service to all sentient beings.

    We live in a human world full of human stuff. So we live a human life, but at the same time acting with compassion.

    But as always, I might be totally wrong.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH
    Thank you, Kyonin. Deep bows.
    Enjaku
    Sat LAH
    援若

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyonin View Post
    Hi all,

    I saw the video but refrained from commenting until sitting with this. I have read about how Theravada monks refrain from handling money or even talking to women and I understand why they do that. I even had a Theravada monk friend who was traveling through Mexico and it was a challenge for him because of all those barriers they impose on themselves.

    I think compassion is a key element for our practice. Just as we are compassionate towards others, we should begin practicing it from within us and for ourselves. That means to be aware of all our excesses and compulsions. With compassion and by living by the Precepts we can stop harmful behaviors. That goes for Netflix watching, food and sex, of course.

    We are humans, living organisms that have to do what living organisms do in order to preserve the species. We also have developed this mind that lead us to have a civilization. But in the package also come rules, ethics and morality.

    And as Buddhist we also have to always check our actions with the Precepts. Addictions are in conflict with our precept of abstaining from intoxicating the mind.

    Compassion to ourselves is a great help to overcome addictions or not to even begin developing one.

    I don't think the body is loathsome or dirty or rotten or anything of the like. It's part of nature, part of a bigger living being. Our body is our vehicle to navigate life and our means to be of service to all sentient beings.

    We live in a human world full of human stuff. So we live a human life, but at the same time acting with compassion.

    But as always, I might be totally wrong.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    Sat/LAH
    Thank you Kyonin,

    I also sat with this for a while because I found the content of the video quite dense. Many points of discussion within it regardless of the Theravadan overlay.

    I first came across the 'disgust' meditation (unfortunate term) when I read Thich Nhat Hhan's book 'Transformation and Healing : Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness'. THich Nhat Hhan cautions against this meditation if one is chronically ill (so I've never tried it!) - though illness itself implicitly teaches the body's frailty and ability to be experienced as obnoxious.

    My understanding is that the point of the meditation is to grasp impermanence at a very visceral level. I didn't get from this that the body should be viewed as loathsome per se? I probably need to listen to the video again but I caught a slight hint of fundamentalism and here in lies the danger - because so much of art/aesthetics/ and much of what we value, comes from an appreciation of the human form. I think its off the mark to use the message inherent in the sutra as some form of aversion therapy for sexual desire, and love of life in general, etc.

    There's a huge gap between addiction and appreciation - who would want to live a life void of an appreciation for 'form and colour' - our world is, in many ways, beautiful - relationships - of all persuasions - are in many ways beautiful.

    And yet we are capable of destroying all of this. So maybe - from time to time - we need to see (visualize) our own death to get a perspective. Shakespeare said it as well - the skull held up in the grave yard scene in Hamlet is comparable to the skeletons visualized in the video. We age, decay and die - but that doesn't mean that we are separate from the ebb and flow of form and colour.



    Jinyo

    ST
    Last edited by Jinyo; 09-14-2017 at 10:33 AM.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •