How much intensity?

[Jay_cg14]

Hi sangha!

When we sit zazen, and rest as awareness are we still being intentionally alert to a degree? Or are we dropping our intentionality and effort all together? Or is this alertness kind of ever present in the background so to speak.

Gassho, Jay.

SatToday 🙇

[Mp]

Hello Jay,

When we sit, we just sit .. this is a natural occurrence. Alertness/awareness is always present so just allow it to be naturally. Try to not to focus your attention on attention, find your place, and just breathe naturally. No need to think "am I being aware? Am I alert to this present experience". When we sit in this natural state of just sitting, body and mind fall away naturally. Make sense? =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Rakurei]

If you become attached to a concept of Zen Mind then Zen Mind is not Zen Mind.

Be gentle, natural - your mind will be analytical. Am I being alert? How's my breathing? Am I putting in too much effort? Not enough? Did the timekeeper die? This is all natural by product of our mind grasping. Your awareness and continual practice will make these thoughts less prominent with time. Judging alertness, judging good zen vs. bad zen, is all a distraction. Just be naturally present. No good, no bad.

When I would teach Vipassana, we would say that our minds are addicted to thoughts. And just like an addict begins to have fits if they don't get their fix, when you sit on your cushion, your mind jumps and screams, because it too needs it's "fix" of thoughts. Just with awareness it'll go away.

Gassho,

Tyler

SatToday/LAH

[Kyonin]

Hi Jay.

We just sit. Whatever arises, whatever comes to mind and body... we just sit and notice how things and thoughts come and go. That's all.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[BadChemEng]

I struggled with the whole analytical part for the first few weeks. Now I am just comfortable sitting and noticing what happens.

Gassho,
Brad

SatToday/LAH

[Jay_cg14]

Kind of like - The sky is always there, ever present no need to try to make it present!
You guys, thankyou again for such helpful feedback

Gassho, Jay.

[Mp]

Kind of like - The sky is always there, ever present no need to try to make it present!
You guys, thankyou again for such helpful feedback

Gassho, Jay.

You got it. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

Lovely, wise advice here.

Like the Buddha's advice on Practice on playing the loot ... strings not too lose, not too tight, to make the harmonious sound.

Then just play, don't think about playing while playing.

Remember that the result of this "Just Sitting" is sitting vibrantly at the center of all the world, with nothing more to attain and no other goal besides sitting. Not one other place to be or thing to do in the world during that time of sitting (no matter what in life awaits after). It is not sitting like a bump on a log, twiddling our thumbs or waiting for something to happen. Nor is it analyzing why we are sitting there, comparing our sitting to other sittings or other activities, and the like. Nor is it worry about whether thoughts are present or not present (even as we let thoughts go, don't grab on), pondering whether one is sitting right or not (if you analyze that, you are doing it wrong! ), measuring the experience. Just sitting should be beyond all human measure.

Just Sit, letting all else fade from concern.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Tai Shi]

Thank you Jundo, after nearly 3 years, and more, so be it, so it goes, it goes, yes going, not going, and whose counting? Thank you Richard Maxwell.

st/lah
Taishi
Gassho

[Jay_cg14]

Thanks Jundo! Yes I remember Buddha's advice on the strings now. Thanks for your wisdom ��

Gassho, Jay.

Sat.Lah

[Jakuden]

Lovely, wise advice here.

Like the Buddha's advice on Practice on playing the loot ... strings not too lose, not too tight, to make the harmonious sound.

Then just play, don't think about playing while playing.

Remember that the result of this "Just Sitting" is sitting vibrantly at the center of all the world, with nothing more to attain and no other goal besides sitting. Not one other place to be or thing to do in the world during that time of sitting (no matter what in life awaits after). It is not sitting like a bump on a log, twiddling our thumbs or waiting for something to happen. Nor is it analyzing why we are sitting there, comparing our sitting to other sittings or other activities, and the like. Nor is it worry about whether thoughts are present or not present (even as we let thoughts go, don't grab on), pondering whether one is sitting right or not (if you analyze that, you are doing it wrong! ), measuring the experience. Just sitting should be beyond all human measure.

Just Sit, letting all else fade from concern.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Would it be fair to say that there is some effort involved, but the effort is more just "noticing and coming back" rather than analyzing and judging?

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Myogan]

The first time I heard the phrase "not too tight, not too loose" I was reminded of how I had been instructed to hold a golf club.

"Imagine you are holding a bird in your hand as you carry it from one place to another. Hold it two tight and you will suffocate it, too loose and it will hurt itself trying to get away."

Now while in Zazen those words mirror my intensity in how I hold the mudra. When I am overly intense I feel the tips of my thumbs flatten against each other. When my mind wanders they separate completely.

Don't overthink it though otherwise your Zazen will go into the bunker.

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

Would it be fair to say that there is some effort involved, but the effort is more just "noticing and coming back" rather than analyzing and judging?

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

Hi Jakuden,

Yes, but I have been asked by quite a few people over the years about this "noticing", perhaps because of the influence in the West, particularly American Buddhism, of Vipassana/Mindfulness meditation, in which one in told to notice or label various aspects of bodily or surrounding experience (e.g. "become aware of your breath" or "feel the points of contact between your body and the chair or floor" etc.). Some folks asked me if they should keep noting throughout Zazen. Just to be clear, that is not our way in Shikantaza.

So, just to make it clear, I would say "do not analyze and judge" and "if finding oneself caught in trains of thought, gently open the hand of thought and let it go, returning 10,000 times and 10,000 time again to the breath/posture/open spacious awareness (whichever is one's current centerpoint during Zazen)." Of course, we do have to "notice" that we are caught in thought to do so, but it takes the emphasis away from "noticing" as what we are supposed to be doing. It should be more like "notice and let go of even noticing."

And even when centered on the breath or posture, I would say to "stay centered, but do not overly notice or think about the breath/posture" etc. Leave the focus lightly there, or lightly adjust the posture, but do not think "breath" or about the posture more than necessary.

I wonder if my early morning explanation above makes my point clear, or muddles it?

Now while in Zazen those words mirror my intensity in how I hold the mudra. When I am overly intense I feel the tips of my thumbs flatten against each other. When my mind wanders they separate completely.

Ah, you hit on a old Zen teacher's trick to "read the mind" of someone in Zazen: Looking at such things as the slump of the shoulder, the droop of the body and the slump of the hand Mudra (or overly tight aspect of all of the above too), one case tell whether the sitter's mind is drifting or getting sleepy/dull (or is overly straining).



Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jakuden]

It should be more like "notice and let go of even noticing."

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

[Shinshou]

Would it be fair to say that there is some effort involved, but the effort is more just "noticing and coming back" rather than analyzing and judging?

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

This was key for me. My experience is that stillness is fine. Thinking is fine. Both are dharma/reality, but grasping onto or pushing away either thoughts or stillness is not shikantaza. At least that's where my practice is right now.

Dan
Sat today/lah

[Bearshirt Buddhist]

Thanks for this. It answers some niggling questions I've been having.

Theo
Sat today

[Shinshou]

Here's a very short article that from Tricycle that was in my inbox today. Very appropriate.

"The best way to deal with excessive thinking is to just listen to it, to listen to the mind. Listening is much more effective than trying to stop thought or cut it off. When we listen there is a different mode employed in the heart. Instead of trying to cut it off, we receive thought without making anything out of it.

Most of our thoughts are like dreams. Occasionally, perhaps once or twice a year, we may have a dream that is significant and we know it. We may not know exactly what it is about, but it is pretty clear that there’s a message in it. But the other 364 days a year it’s just the leftovers of the day. There is nothing particularly significant or important about any of our dream content at all. It’s just the residue, the echoes of the day’s events and activities, the things that we have rehashed a couple of times already.

When we look at thought in this way, we aren’t being pulled into it. We can just look at it. We don’t reject it or suppress it, but we don’t buy into it either. We don’t make more out of it than is there. That attitude of listening, of opening to and receiving thought, has a liberating quality in and of itself."

Adapted from “Thinking,” by Ajahn Amaro. Originally published in Mindfulness, Vol. 1, No. 3. Reprinted with permission of Ajahn Amaro.


Dan
Sat today

[Jishin]

"The best way to deal with excessive thinking is to just listen to it, to listen to the mind. Listening is much more effective than trying to stop thought or cut it off. When we listen there is a different mode employed in the heart. Instead of trying to cut it off, we receive thought without making anything out of it.

This is not Shikantaza. Listening is grasping. Cutting it off is pushing. Thinking amidst big Thinking, neither listening or cutting anything off is the way. Just sit. That's all.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

"The best way to deal with excessive thinking is to just listen to it, to listen to the mind. Listening is much more effective than trying to stop thought or cut it off. When we listen there is a different mode employed in the heart. Instead of trying to cut it off, we receive thought without making anything out of it.

This is not Shikantaza. Listening is grasping. Cutting it off is pushing. Thinking amidst big Thinking, neither listening or cutting anything off is the way. Just sit. That's all.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

What Jishin is saying is very true ... the best way to deal with it is to just accept it as it is, no need to push or grasp. When we sit, we just sit it this wholeness, this completeness nothing needing to be added or removed. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Jundo]

What Jishin is saying is very true ... the best way to deal with it is to just accept it as it is, no need to push or grasp. When we sit, we just sit it this wholeness, this completeness nothing needing to be added or removed. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

It is a very fine distinction, but I must say I agree with what Jishin and Shingen say here. In sitting such way, not pushing or grasping, one is not even listening or not listening.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[babyleaf]

Although this is an old thread, I found it very helpful so I just wanted to show gratitude for everyone's insight!

Best, and many thanks.

Gassho
Gaby
SatToday

[Mumeido Grundy]

Lovely stuff - distractions can be soooo subtle, and language so clumsy a tool, it's really useful to read these posts.
Many thanks to you all.
Deep bows

Mumeido
SatToday/LAH