Zazen and the Analytical Mind

[BadChemEng]

Hello there everyone,
I am new to community and very thankful to have been led to you all. I have a brief question about Zazen positioning and how my analytical mind is getting in my way. I know that it is recommended that we sit with our eyes 1/3 open. I find myself spending most of my time sitting debating with myself as to whether my eyes are actual open 1/3, or 1/2, or 1/8... When I have practiced mediation in the past I keep my eyes closed, so this is where I find the most comfort. My question is, is it necessary to begin with your eyes partially open, or can you begin wit eyes closed and just not stop them from drifting open partially naturally? I know that this may seem like a minor point, but for some reason I have fixated on it and I feel like it is adversely impacting my practice.

Thank you for your help!
Brad

sattoday

[Jundo]

Hello there everyone,
I am new to community and very thankful to have been led to you all. I have a brief question about Zazen positioning and how my analytical mind is getting in my way. I know that it is recommended that we sit with our eyes 1/3 open. I find myself spending most of my time sitting debating with myself as to whether my eyes are actual open 1/3, or 1/2, or 1/8... When I have practiced mediation in the past I keep my eyes closed, so this is where I find the most comfort. My question is, is it necessary to begin with your eyes partially open, or can you begin wit eyes closed and just not stop them from drifting open partially naturally? I know that this may seem like a minor point, but for some reason I have fixated on it and I feel like it is adversely impacting my practice.

Thank you for your help!
Brad

sattoday

Hi Brad.

Welcome again.

Yes, it is a fixation. 1/3 or 1/2 is not a measure with a ruler and protractor! We keep the eyes open because we do not shut out the outside world in this Zazen, and realize that inside is flowing out and outside is coming in, all beyond in or out. The most important aspect of this Practice is sitting in the Completeness of sitting, the one action to do in the time of sitting, and the dropping of judgments (including "are my eyes open right or wrong" ).

I just came across a passage in one of our cherished ancient books, the Platform Sutra of the 6th Ancestor (Huineng), in which he speaks of sitting beyond judgments. Huineng advises his disciples in his final words from his death bed:

Be the same as you would if I were here, and sit all together in meditation. If you are only peacefully calm and quiet, without motion, without stillness, without birth, without destruction, without coming, without going, without judgments of right and wrong, without staying and without going-this then is the Great Way. After I have gone just practice according to the Dharma in the same way that you did on the days that I was with you.

Sitting while being unattached, and dropping all human judgments such as motion and stillness, coming, going, right and wrong, birth and death ... 1/3 or open or closed ... is at the heart of Shikantaza.

This mirrors the guidance in many early Chan writings such as the Xin Xin Ming ...

The Great Way is not difficult
for those not attached to preferences.
When neither love nor hate arises,
all is clear and undisguised.

The wonderful reason is that human beings spend all their day judging and measuring, seeing what falls short (as you seem to being doing about your sitting), filled with attractions and aversions etc. This is the source of Dukkha ("suffering" in Buddhist lingo). In this Sitting, all such is dropped away and resolved.

Nonetheless (and here is the Koan Katch-22) we sit in a certain nicely balanced posture, with eyes about 1/2 or 1/3 open, in order to embody and realize this "beyond right or wrong, beyond measure". We are not merely sitting like a lump or a bump on a log or taking a nap.

If you would like to read an extended essay by me on "Right Zazen beyond right and wrong" ....

Right Zazen and Wrong Zazen
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...nd-Wrong-Zazen

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Suuko]

Hey Brad,

Good advice from Jundo. I have meditated for years with closed eyes and I can relate to what you are saying. It'll take some time for your eyes to adjust to staying partly open but this will come on its own. Allow the eyes to close and open, twist and turn. It'll reach a point when the eyes will naturally be just slightly open.

Gassho,
Geerish.
ST.LAH.

[Geika]

I often have trouble keeping my eyes closed to the one third degree without becoming a little headachy or dizzy or sleepy. So I often take Taigu's advice on "just keep your eyes around" which I took to mean, "in a natural way."

Gassho, sat today, lah

[Jundo]

I often have trouble keeping my eyes closed to the one third degree without becoming a little headachy or dizzy or sleepy. So I often take Taigu's advice on "just keep your eyes around" which I took to mean, "in a natural way."

Gassho, sat today, lah

Yes, we had another thread or two awhile back on the eyes ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post200444

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[BadChemEng]

Very helpful. Thank you everyone!

SatTodayLAH

[Seishin]

BadChemEng

After working 38 yrs in IT I know where you're coming from. I joined here about a year ago after not sitting for quite a few years. For the first few months my mind was caught up with thoughts of how I was sitting, was it right was it wrong, was it good, was it bad, was it just what it is ? Asked a few questions here and put that one to bed. Then I got caught up in the eyes "problem". Too focused, not focused enough, not open enough, not closed enough, not open, open too much. Round and round I went for weeks.

Then Matthew posted the question in the link that Jundo mentioned above http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post200444 and I found my answers. I just sat. Sitting with not thinking of what or how my posture was doing. Sitting with not thinking of what or how my breathing was doing. And finally sitting with not thinking of what or how my eyes were doing. I was going to respond in that thread after a couple of weeks of just sitting with sitting but never bothered, as sitting was just sitting.

Now ? Yes I get caught up in thoughts now and zen but am no longer focused on what my body and eyes are doing / not doing. But hey bet I am in the morning now I've said all that !! Monkey See. Monkey Do. Monkey Mind.

STMIZ / LAH

[Eishuu]

Hi,
I also found it weird when I started to sit with my eyes open after having previously meditated with eyes closed for years. It takes some getting used to and your mind will do all sorts of things with it at first.

Gassho
Lucy
ST/LAH

[Shinshou]

I keep my eyes almost straight ahead - when I cast my gaze down, it pulls my head down and exacerbates chronic shoulder pain. My experience has been that if my mind isn't thinking about my gaze, body, or breathing, it will be thinking about something else. The mind thinks (and sometimes insistently so). No problem.

Dan
ST

[Myogan]

The human brain tries to always be active, even in stillness. With the eyes closed the mind's eye takes over and acts to keep the brain active resulting in greater distraction than just looking at a blank wall (the same thing will happen if you meditate in total darkness with your eyes open).

My own eyelid position varies due to a mild droop, but I wonder if others who wear glasses find it easier or harder to find a natural position with or without glasses.

Gassho
Sat

[Mp]

I keep my eyes almost straight ahead - when I cast my gaze down, it pulls my head down and exacerbates chronic shoulder pain. My experience has been that if my mind isn't thinking about my gaze, body, or breathing, it will be thinking about something else. The mind thinks (and sometimes insistently so). No problem.

Dan
ST

Hey Dan,

Yes the mind thinks, that is what it does. When sitting we don't stop the mind from being the mind, we just don't get caught up with the activity of the mind. The same goes for any other organ or body part. =)

As for our gaze ... remember that you posture starts at the hips. If you hips are tilted back, the lower back rolls back and arches the spine, which is not good. Try to roll the pelvis forward which will then help align the spine, shoulders, and head. Draw the chin in slightly while still keeping the back of the neck straight, try not to bend the head forward. This way your eyes can find that natural 45 degree angle and not have to be staring straight ahead. Make sense? =)

correct_meditation_posture.png

In the picture above, the same forward pelvic tilt can be applied whether sitting on a zafu, seiza bench, or chair.

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Michael Joseph]

Hello all.

Jundo, thanks for the repost. It was great encouragement. Jundo's post, BadChem's question, and everyone's responses are a great help in cultivating the patience and non-judgement to let things be.

Gassho,

Michael

Sattoday