Holiness?

[Liang]

I hope all of you are well.
I've been studying Hassadic Judaism for the last year or so. For me, a meditative/contemplative practice reveals an active, loving force that seeks us as much as we seek it. I've really loved finding deep beauty in the prayers and observances. But I've ran into a bit of a puzzle and I thought perhaps my old friends at the zendo could help.

I'm beginning to suspect that "God" doesn't care about which religion you practice or what name you call Him/Her/It.

A concrete example is the commandment to not to eat pork. I'm convinced that eating pork doesn't makes you any less holy. Holiness meaning having a connection with and favor or blessings from God. Being set apart from the common attachments of the world. Not being a "worldling" of the Pali Cannon. Plenty of devout people of all kinds of faiths eat or don't eat pork or meat at all and it seems to have no effect on their genuine faith and righteousness.

Yet at the same time by not eating pork you can develop holiness. In the Jewish blessings there the line which is translated "...Lord God, who santicifies us with your commandments, and commanded us to..." I have a real sense by observing the devotional and ritual practice I do develop deeper holiness. A big part of that is the intentionality. Accidentally nof eating pork (maybe cause you have a pet pig and don't want to traumatize your kids or you doctor tells you not to eat it) doesn't merit you unintended holiness.

Of course I'm reminded of Bodhidharma's famous line to the emperor about gaining no merit thru building of countless temples.

The New Testament does address this and says that compassion is more important than legalism which is completely true. Hypothetically if someone invited me to dinner and everything was non-kosher, I believe it would be unkind to refuse their hospitality and would be a better deed to graciously accept and show gratitude for the meal made for you. But it's my view that Jesus and even Paul don't discount the value of following the commandments but opened to the faith also to gentiles but didn't wish for Jews to stop their practices or to critize their observance.

I stumbled across this quote of a 19th century Rabbi. It's very zen. It's all my religious issues in a nutshell.

"Through a blemish in believing in the Sages, one never has whole counsel, he’s always in doubt, his counsel is divided, and he doesn’t know how to give counsel to his soul regarding any matter." Rebbe Nachman

Shalom/Gassho
-Fred
Are you all still doing the #sattoday before posting? It was a great idea. I will include you all in my daily prayers. Here's a line from the standing prayer that's cool
"You bestow humans with knowledge and teach mortals understanding. Grant us the knowledge, understanding, and wisdom that comes from you. Worshipful are you, Oh Lord, giver of knowledge."

[Jishin]

IMG_0156.JPGIMG_0157.JPG

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Rich]

Believe in yourself 100 %. So if the commandments are yours, then no problem. Thanks for your insightful and interesting comments.

SAT today

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[Liang]

Jishin,
I am not interested in debating theism and it's not really the question I'm asking. I will say that theists who are mystics/contemplatives can benefit a lot from an atheist critique. "God" as commonly expressed and as contained within intellectual doctrines doesn't exist. Rather we can be redirected to the true God we encounter in prayer. All teachings are just fingers pointing at the moon.
That's Zen, but it's also the via negativa with strong traditions within many religions, Christianity and Judaism included. In the US, evangelicals just steal most of the airtime.

[Jishin]

Hi Fred,

I did not understand your comment. I am pretty ignorant on the subject but know enough to be polite. My apologies.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Jundo]

Fred, Oye Vey, you should ask Him/Her/It, and the pig, and the Rebbe! I have little to offer on this.

As to God, I often say this. if there is a Y-W-H ... chop wood and fetch water, Sit Zazen and live gently. Do unto others.

And if there is no Y-W-H ... chop wood and fetch water, Sit Zazen and live gently. Do unto others.

It is said that the Buddha ate meat if placed in his bowl. One theory is that he was killed by a bad piece of pork (some say a mushroom).

http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLT...-MEL/waley.htm

Gassho and Shalom, Jundo the Cohen

PS - Yes, we ask that you have SatToday before posting.

[Jishin]

Jundo is the Rebbe.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

שלום

[Jakuden]

A concrete example is the commandment to not to eat pork. I'm convinced that eating pork doesn't makes you any less holy. Holiness meaning having a connection with and favor or blessings from God. Being set apart from the common attachments of the world. Not being a "worldling" of the Pali Cannon. Plenty of devout people of all kinds of faiths eat or don't eat pork or meat at all and it seems to have no effect on their genuine faith and righteousness.

Yet at the same time by not eating pork you can develop holiness. In the Jewish blessings there the line which is translated "...Lord God, who santicifies us with your commandments, and commanded us to..." I have a real sense by observing the devotional and ritual practice I do develop deeper holiness. A big part of that is the intentionality. Accidentally nof eating pork (maybe cause you have a pet pig and don't want to traumatize your kids or you doctor tells you not to eat it) doesn't merit you unintended holiness.

Of course I'm reminded of Bodhidharma's famous line to the emperor about gaining no merit thru building of countless temples.

The New Testament does address this and says that compassion is more important than legalism which is completely true. Hypothetically if someone invited me to dinner and everything was non-kosher, I believe it would be unkind to refuse their hospitality and would be a better deed to graciously accept and show gratitude for the meal made for you. But it's my view that Jesus and even Paul don't discount the value of following the commandments but opened to the faith also to gentiles but didn't wish for Jews to stop their practices or to critize their observance."

I may be totally off the mark on this, but this brings to mind the eightfold path and "right intention." It is my understanding that while "right action" is also part of the eightfold path, this is subject to intent. So as you mentioned, in some cases the action itself is not holy or unholy, it is rather the intent behind it. So if we practice, examine our motives, and try to act in accord, then we are on the Path, whether you call it Holy, or the Middle Way, or Observing, or just meaningful!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/about to LAH

[Mp]

I may be totally off the mark on this, but this brings to mind the eightfold path and "right intention." It is my understanding that while "right action" is also part of the eightfold path, this is subject to intent. So as you mentioned, in some cases the action itself is not holy or unholy, it is rather the intent behind it. So if we practice, examine our motives, and try to act in accord, then we are on the Path, whether you call it Holy, or the Middle Way, or Observing, or just meaningful!

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday/about to LAH

Agreed! Intent is very important when it comes to our actions ... our actions are the only expression to what our intentions are. Right intention usually results in right action. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday

[Suuko]

Vast emptiness, no holiness.

If we live beyond duality, there's no holy or unholy. Just like the mud feeds the lotus which blossoms the flower.

Gassho,
ST, LAH.

[Jishin]

Vast emptiness, no holiness.

If we live beyond duality, there's no holy or unholy. Just like the mud feeds the lotus which blossoms the flower.

Gassho,
ST, LAH.

FUKETSU'S SILENCE AND WORDS

A monk asked Fuketsu, "Without words or without silence transgressing, how can one be unmistakably one with the universe?"

Fuketsu said, "I often think of March in Konan (Southern China). The birds sing among hundreds of flagrant flowers."

Mumon's Comments:

Fuketsu's mind was quick as lightning, snatching the road and walking on it. Regrettably Fuketsu was not able to sit on the words of the "ancestors." If anyone should penetrate into this, he would be absolutely free. Without words, without phrases, now say what Zen is.

Fuketsu did not say such a fine phrase,
Without uttering words, he already let it be known. If Fuketsu had become talkative,
You do not know what to do.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Http://www.treeleaf.org/now/

[Joyo]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences, Fred.

I know people, who call themselves holy and Christian, who would crucify Jesus all over again, should he show up in this day and age. They are so full of judgment and hate, no Jesus in them at all. But they do make for very good Zen teachers.

And other people I know, who don't think of themselves as holy at all, are some of the most giving, generous souls that walk this earth. These people inspire me, to quietly practice, living a life of giving and compassion.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Zenmei]

Fred,

Your description of "holiness" sounds a lot like my understanding of karma. Positive intentions lead to holiness or good karma. The only difference I see is that you described holiness as being bestowed by an external entity or force (or however you conceive of god), and I see karma as an emergent property of life, intrinsic to our existence. Pretty sure we're looking at the same moon, though.

Shalom, Zenmei
#sat

[Liang]

I liked Jundo's thing about ask God, ask a pig, ask your Rabbi/Rebbe. It was said in jest I think but is the best advice especially if I skip the Rabbi since each one has their opinion. If I want to know what God wants me to do it's best to ask God. It's also good to check with pigs (or any other subject of my inquiry) and make sure I'm not being harmful in the name of "religion" (for instance, the church's toxic stance on homosexuality is pretty unchristian or at least not compassionately presented).

Jundo, you gave a simmilar teaching last time talked about God with the analogy of a table in the room that you're sitting zazen. My late mentor and friend Dharmakara was also pretty anti-theistic. He would ask "Did God create man in His image or did man create God in his image?" He was anti-religion even and especially his own. He said there are no Buddhists, only people playing dress up and pretend. He called those who used Buddhism to oppress musliums in their Buddhist countries as "dharma impaired". I definitely miss his guidance.

I don't feel a need to respond to these critiques here. If anyone really wants me to get into my reasons for being a theist you can PM me. Just to say that it's what I've directly experienced both on the meditation cushion and in my life. I'd be foolish to ignore that, but in the same sense you'd be foolish to take my word for it without having a simmilar experience.

I do want to thank all of you that were around the forums a few years ago when I was a regular. I was dealing with PTSD from the army and being in Iraq. My zen practice was key in my healing and dealing with that. That practice also laid the foundation for my contemplative approach to my faith now. Thanks to each of you for that gift of sharing your practice.

I'm assuming it would be okay to join in silent zazen with you all while wearing tefflin and Tallit on a hangout sometime? I think that would be cool. I'm not supposed to talk with Tefflin on anyways, but have my thoughts focused on prayer. But if it would bother anyone you all can let me know.

Gassho
-Fred (the gentile, Technically if Jundo, the Buddhist, has a Jewish maternal ancestry he's Jewish and I'm not without formal conversion regardless of any actual religious practices. Silly human religions! I think my observance makes me "Jewish", but that's Kabbalah and not recognized by most Rabbis).

[Zenmei]

I don't feel a need to respond to these critiques here. If anyone really wants me to get into my reasons for being a theist you can PM me. Just to say that it's what I've directly experienced both on the meditation cushion and in my life. I'd be foolish to ignore that, but in the same sense you'd be foolish to take my word for it without having a simmilar experience.

I would hope we could have reasonable conversations about God here, without anyone trying to convert anyone else. Maybe I'm naive.

I'm assuming it would be okay to join in silent zazen with you all while wearing tefflin and Tallit on a hangout sometime? I think that would be cool. I'm not supposed to talk with Tefflin on anyways, but have my thoughts focused on prayer. But if it would bother anyone you all can let me know.

You can sit in a tuxedo or completely naked for all I care. As long as we're sitting together. Although, now that I think about it maybe it's a better idea if we require some clothing. We don't want to get into Skyclad Zendo territory.

Gassho, Zenmei
#sat

[Liang]

Zenmei,
I'm sorry if I came off as not willing to talk about it. It comes from a deep respect for you all and for the teachings of the zendo. I think dialogue is really important and as fellow mystics we have a lot of common ground. I'll PM you or start another thread if you all really want. But argument for argument's sake is a waste of typing. But I'll message you.
Thanks!

[Joyo]

I am happy for you to have found your path, Fred in regards to being a theist and a Zen practitioner. This world can be so cruel and difficult, it's good to find a spiritual practice that can help along the way.

I don't think you need to explain or respond to why you believe in God. Treeleaf is very inclusive, and you are not the only one who has a belief in God here.

For me, I take comfort in the thought that God is everywhere, the words of Jesus can be appreciated and practiced (even without being a Christian). It's unfortunate that, as you said, silly human religions have caused such division and hatred. Personally, I don't think Jesus would be interested in debating or partaking in any of that.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Zenmei]

I just mean I hope you feel welcome to share here, and if it is possible for a theist and a non-theist to have a productive conversation online, this is the place.

Gassho, Zenmei
#sat

[Meian]

Hello Fred,

I studied Judaism privately for years and I also took some classes (almost converted several years ago). Judaism always fascinated me on so many levels, and I'm still on many Jewish lists but not much time to read. I used to read a lot at the Chabad website as I found the stories fascinating, and I enjoyed Chasidic mysticism as I understood it. It was not as complicated (or loaded) for me as other denominations were.

I enjoyed your post - thank you for the memories. I can't conceptualize the understanding, but have had a similar sense, and never quite got past that feeling of a "reaching out." Still sorting it. Since I have studied both Judaism and Islam extensively, I cannot eat pork with a clear conscience, so I generally avoid all pig as a matter of conscience (as it is not considered kosher or halal). But this is just me, I know I am strange.

Gassho/Shalom
Kim
St

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

[Risho]

Zen has really shaped my belief in God. Personally I think we are absolutely sacred and holy; our lives are absolutely miraculous. I mean all that is involved in our experience is insane to think about. But our holiness has nothing to do with our "selves"; its what we are, if that makes any sense.

so it isnt by actions that we are holy, but its that we align our actions toward what we are. ok i totally stole that but this practice has helped me also feel that; spoiler alert: i fail at it so much, i dont like talking about it but its the aim or vow lol

when i step back and think about how amazing this is i feel simultaneously awestruck at how i can find things to complain about.

gassho

risho
-sattoday

[Jishin]

IMG_0087.JPGIMG_0088.JPG



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Http://www.treeleaf.org/now/

[Liang]

Jishin,

They say truth is stranger than fiction. In Genesis 8:20, Noah immediately after flood with two of every animal sacrifices each clean animal to the Lord. 2 - 1 = extinction, opps!
Just one of many silliness to a literal reading of the Bible.

[Jundo]

Vast emptiness, no holiness.

If we live beyond duality, there's no holy or unholy. Just like the mud feeds the lotus which blossoms the flower.

Gassho,
ST, LAH.

That aspect of Zen alone can lead to amoral behavior. It can be the attitude that "there is ultimately no one to kill or be killed, so okay to kill."

There are Precepts and definite Prescriptions on what is right an wrong. We avoid to kill sentient beings, but as we recently discussed, the issue of meat eating has not been always so clear in Buddhism.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ing-Meat/page2

I'm assuming it would be okay to join in silent zazen with you all while wearing tefflin and Tallit on a hangout sometime? I think that would be cool. I'm not supposed to talk with Tefflin on anyways, but have my thoughts focused on prayer. But if it would bother anyone you all can let me know.

I would ask that you be sitting Shikantaza when sitting with us, no matter what you wear. That means neither picking God up nor putting Him/Her/It down, neither thinking about God nor intentionally thinking about anything. Shikantaza itself is the prayer Realized, is Buddha God and Heaven sitting, so I would ask that you not be praying during that time.

Of course, before or after Sitting, on one's own, one may pray or think of all things. But when sitting Shikantaza in our Zendo, there is only sitting Shikantaza.

If there is a God (and I take no stand on that, only a sit on that ), Just Sitting is the closest I believe that one can come ... because how does one come to that when never goes?

I'm sorry if I came off as not willing to talk about it. It comes from a deep respect for you all and for the teachings of the zendo. I think dialogue is really important and as fellow mystics we have a lot of common ground. I'll PM you or start another thread if you all really want. But argument for argument's sake is a waste of typing. But I'll message you.

I think here, amid the boundless internet where people can share and discuss all topics, we stay pretty centered on Soto Zen Buddhism. One does not come to swimming school to play tennis. The philosophical questions are lovely, but we put them down and sit, staying focused on the way of Practice here.

We can talk about God to some extent, but the basic point is this:

I believe that all the great Wisdom Traditions of the universe come down to the same Wordless Heart. Nonetheless, swimming is not tennis, Here, we swim.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Just to clarify my view on this, I just wrote the following to Liang ...

-------------

My reason is just that I don't want to present too many approaches at once, and I want to focus on training with shikantaza.

Comparative religion is good, and many people mix and match. The one aspect about Shikantaza though is that, for the time of practicing Shikantaza, there is only that ... go deeplessly deep. Some folks turn "comparative" into cafeteria shopping, without going deep into this just one thing.

I fully support going to Mosque or Church or Synagogue or to a Richard Dawkins atheists meeting before or after Shikantaza if that is helpful to folks, and one can chant to Buddha or Allah or Jehovah or nothing at all before or after getting up from the cushion ... but when we practice Shikantaza, there is Shikantaza.

Why?

People don't know how to just sit and need nothing else.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Liang]

Thank you to everyone for their practice.

[Suuko]

That aspect of Zen alone can lead to amoral behavior. It can be the attitude that "there is ultimately no one to kill or be killed, so okay to kill."

There are Precepts and definite Prescriptions on what is right an wrong. We avoid to kill sentient beings, but as we recently discussed, the issue of meat eating has not been always so clear in Buddhism.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ing-Meat/page2

In my experience, only good things can come from the no-mind state because we are all good when the mind is still. However, I'm no teacher like you, Jundo.
In a no mind state, helping is automatic, being selfless is automatic. Some people say that we operate from the higher mind but in Soto Zen, we don't categorise, isn't it?

Gassho,
Geerish.
ST/LAH.

[Jishin]

In my experience, only good things can come from the no-mind state because we are all good when the mind is still. However, I'm no teacher like you, Jundo.
In a no mind state, helping is automatic, being selfless is automatic. Some people say that we operate from the higher mind but in Soto Zen, we don't categorise, isn't it?

Gassho,
Geerish.
ST/LAH.

43. Shuzan's Short Staff

Shuzan held out his short staff and said: "If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"

Mumon's comment: If you call this a short staff, you oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the fact. It cannot be expressed with words and it cannot be expressed without words. Now say quickly what it is.

Holding out the short staff,
He gave an order of life or death.
Positive and negative interwoven,
Even Buddhas and patriarchs cannot escape this attack.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Http://www.treeleaf.org/now/

[Doshin]

I wanted to share that I have read this thread and gained perspectives that I appreciate. I share, because for the last half Century I have thought little about gods or religion but I listened to what each has said and may yet be said. And yet I have been married to an Orthodox Christian (who accepts, appreciates my paradigm and we seldom discuss theism...probably becasue she saw my eyes glaze over too many times so many years ago) for 37 years. In addition my first 17 years on this earth were in and out of Churches of many denominations to understand what today I feel is the unexplainable. So I think little of it. However, I see many religions and philosophies that share a common core set of values of how a social animal can live together. To my mind an evolutionary stragegy for survival...but that is me.

A year or so ago Joyo shared a song here or Face Book, somewhere . One that resonated deeply and I shared that with Joyo. It 'felt" right for me so I told my kids to play it at my death along with food and drink. To rejoice, even though some/many will be sad and concerned for my soul that I will not join them somewhere else. I want them to understand that I saw life 'now" as holy and that I will I continue on within that which has so enriched me. I share here not to counter, convert or convince but to express my life... becasue this thread started with a word that has a place in my existence.

And I sit with all no matter our differences because it seems to me that during that time we are one together....

BTW, if my meandering is way off on the intent here just understand that happens alot with me and enjoy the tune




(Thanks again Joyo and I hope you had a great Canadian Day)


Gassho
Doshin
st/LAH

[Joyo]

Thank you for sharing this, Doshin. This song still touches my soul as well, as I see god in nature. Interesting, as I side more with Darwin as well, and I am also married to a Christian. We rarely discuss religion or God either. I don't mean this in any disrespectful way, but I spend hours sitting on my arse, chanting metta, and studying about emptiness so who am I to judge him or anyone else for being a Christian, or whatever path people choose to follow. =)

(I had a good Canada Day, btw, thank you very much )

Many bows to all paths/religions that bring people comfort and help them to live a life of compassion.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[aprapti]

thanks for sharing, Doshin. its a touching song.. I sing in an Orthodox Christian choir, and indeed, everything is holy now..



aprapti
std

[Jishin]

Thank you for sharing this, Doshin. This song still touches my soul as well, as I see god in nature. Interesting, as I side more with Darwin as well, and I am also married to a Christian. We rarely discuss religion or God either. I don't mean this in any disrespectful way, but I spend hours sitting on my arse, chanting metta, and studying about emptiness so who am I to judge him or anyone else for being a Christian, or whatever path people choose to follow. =)

(I had a good Canada Day, btw, thank you very much )

Many bows to all paths/religions that bring people comfort and help them to live a life of compassion.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

Paternal side is Mormon. Maternal is Jewish. First wife was catholic. Forever wife is Church of Christ and so are in laws. Children are Church of Christ. Jundo told me one time that I maybe a JuBu. Apparently there is such a thing. 30% of western buddhists have a Jewish background. If asked, I may say I believe in Christ, in God, in Buddha, in atheism, in JuBus or BuJu or whatever is most appropriate for the occasion as I am all of these things. I prefer JuBu best though.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Http://www.treeleaf.org/now/

[Jundo]

In my experience, only good things can come from the no-mind state because we are all good when the mind is still. However, I'm no teacher like you, Jundo.
In a no mind state, helping is automatic, being selfless is automatic. Some people say that we operate from the higher mind but in Soto Zen, we don't categorise, isn't it?

Gassho,
Geerish.
ST/LAH.

Hi Geerish,

I would like to say that, in 30 years of walking this Path, I had come to believe so. I believe it is a story told in many old books making a rather romantic or idealized presentation of Zen and related traditions (DT Sukuzi, not be be confused with Shunryu Suzuki, is now sometimes criticized for painting such a romantic and idealized image in many of his books), but I have seen no living evidence of this nor does it makes sense to me. I believe that such claims are found in our legends and religious tenets, but not in actuality. We take our long dead ancestors and, once dead, make hagiographical claims for their perfection in mind and behavior. We make theoretical or fantastic descriptions in Sutra Books about the working of Buddha Mind, but such is largely the product of author imagination.

Human beings, while alive, are creatures of flesh and brain, and that brain contains tendencies to act with excess desire, anger and divisive thinking that we must always be on alert for. We can never escape the brain while alive. We we access "no-mind", however, I do not believe that it alone automatically results in the opposites such as generosity, love and harmony. What is does, in my experience, is point us in the direction where such can be nurtured precisely because we are freer ... although never completely free ... of the brain's drives toward excess desire, anger and division. I have seen too many cases where meditation alone, without the Precepts to guide and form its shape and direction, can result in amorality or (even with the Precepts sometimes) all manner of covers for bad behavior. The many "enlightened" gurus and Buddhist Teachers ... from Trungpa to Eido Shimano to Yasutani to many others ... who sometimes acted very badly show what can happen if one relies too much only on one's experience of "no mind."

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

What a simply beautiful song and, if one put a couple of Jewish themed verses in there, one might explain why there are so many folks of Jewish heritage in Zen too.

I also come from a mixed background ... mother Jewish but very lose and liberal, father a "religion is the opiate of the people" socialist, uncles and cousins who became very Orthodox Jews (and some who stopped talking to me, and refused to come to my wedding etc., for that reason), sister married and became Catholic ... even my marriage is "mixed" because her parents are Nichiren Buddhists (very different from Zen, originally the evangelical Baptists of Buddhism, although now most Japanese would be hard pressed to tell you the actual tenets of the particular school of Buddhism their family belongs to, mix in much Shinto etc., and mostly contact Buddhism simply for funerals and ancestor worship).

But as Joyo says so beautifully ...

Many bows to all paths/religions that bring people comfort and help them to live a life of compassion.

Lovely.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Mp]

I wanted to share that I have read this thread and gained perspectives that I appreciate. I share, because for the last half Century I have thought little about gods or religion but I listened to what each has said and may yet be said. And yet I have been married to an Orthodox Christian (who accepts, appreciates my paradigm and we seldom discuss theism...probably becasue she saw my eyes glaze over too many times so many years ago) for 37 years. In addition my first 17 years on this earth were in and out of Churches of many denominations to understand what today I feel is the unexplainable. So I think little of it. However, I see many religions and philosophies that share a common core set of values of how a social animal can live together. To my mind an evolutionary stragegy for survival...but that is me.

A year or so ago Joyo shared a song here or Face Book, somewhere . One that resonated deeply and I shared that with Joyo. It 'felt" right for me so I told my kids to play it at my death along with food and drink. To rejoice, even though some/many will be sad and concerned for my soul that I will not join them somewhere else. I want them to understand that I saw life 'now" as holy and that I will I continue on within that which has so enriched me. I share here not to counter, convert or convince but to express my life... becasue this thread started with a word that has a place in my existence.

And I sit with all no matter our differences because it seems to me that during that time we are one together....

BTW, if my meandering is way off on the intent here just understand that happens alot with me and enjoy the tune




(Thanks again Joyo and I hope you had a great Canadian Day)


Gassho
Doshin
st/LAH

Wonderful Doshin!

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Suuko]

Hi Geerish,

I would like to say that, in 30 years of walking this Path, I had come to believe so. I believe it is a story told in many old books making a rather romantic or idealized presentation of Zen and related traditions (DT Sukuzi, not be be confused with Shunryu Suzuki, is now sometimes criticized for painting such a romantic and idealized image in many of his books), but I have seen no living evidence of this nor does it makes sense to me. I believe that such claims are found in our legends and religious tenets, but not in actuality. We take our long dead ancestors and, once dead, make hagiographical claims for their perfection in mind and behavior. We make theoretical or fantastic descriptions in Sutra Books about the working of Buddha Mind, but such is largely the product of author imagination.

Human beings, while alive, are creatures of flesh and brain, and that brain contains tendencies to act with excess desire, anger and divisive thinking that we must always be on alert for. We can never escape the brain while alive. We we access "no-mind", however, I do not believe that it alone automatically results in the opposites such as generosity, love and harmony. What is does, in my experience, is point us in the direction where such can be nurtured precisely because we are freer ... although never completely free ... of the brain's drives toward excess desire, anger and division. I have seen too many cases where meditation alone, without the Precepts to guide and form its shape and direction, can result in amorality or (even with the Precepts sometimes) all manner of covers for bad behavior. The many "enlightened" gurus and Buddhist Teachers ... from Trungpa to Eido Shimano to Yasutani to many others ... who sometimes acted very badly show what can happen if one relies too much only on one's experience of "no mind."

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Hi Jundo,

I see what you are saying. There's a good number of masters who abused the influence they had on their devotees. Especially, in practices where one has to surrender completely to the master. However, if we are using guidelines and notion of right or wrong, are we not programming the self and fabricating one? Isn't buddha nature something we all have at the start but which gets clouded by thoughts, desires and beliefs?

Gassho,
Geerish.
ST/LAH

[Doshin]

Many bows to all paths/religions that bring people comfort and help them to live a life of compassion.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

Yes!



Doshin
st/LAH

[Jundo]

In a no mind state, helping is automatic, being selfless is automatic. ...

Isn't buddha nature something we all have at the start but which gets clouded by thoughts, desires and beliefs?

Oh, yes!

But here is my feeling on this ...

... (and, please, Geerish, do Sit and Practice yourself and find for yourself "Buddha Nature". Do not be tied up or limited by my words if you disagree) ...

Buddha Nature reveals a truth about us and all things, always present, whereby there is no anger or killing or other violence possible (because no you and no me separate, so no doer and no done), nothing to steal or crave (for no separate things, thus no need or lack) . This is a Peaceful and Whole realm that, while right here, is often hidden by our divided thinking and the resulting selfishness, anger and frustration that we feel when our brains only see this samsaric world of separation.

In our Bodhisattva Vows, we "save the sentient beings" by letting the separate beings also experience such Fact. That is why it is sometimes said by Zen and other Mahayana Teachers that "we 'save the sentient beings' ultimately by showing them that, from the startless start, there were never truly any 'sentient beings' in need of saving, nor any lack to fill).

However, when you and I day to day must live in this samsaric world of "me and you", mine and yours, lack and need, win and lose etc. etc., things are a bit complicated. I do not feel that realizing the above Truth, even profoundly, means that we are necessarily going to live in this world free of the selfishness of our "little self." Until we are dead (and become what the Buddhists called "pari-nirvana' which is only the realm of "no me and you"), we are still people with human bodies, brains wired for selfish drives and instincts, fears, thoughts of past and future, judgments and divided ideas we need to survive, jealousies and all the rest of the human condition. Samsara.

Thus, Dogen (although most Zen teachers actually said about the same if you look carefully at their words and recommendations) spoke of "Practice-Enlightenment." The above realization of "no me-ness" helps avoid the selfishness and all the rest, but it is far from "automatic" by that alone in this world of "me-ness". (I bet a lot of the Rabbis and Christian mystics in the OP to this thread knew this too). No, such realization frees the heart of much of the selfishness, and the excess desire, anger and frustration, fears and judgments, divided thinking ... but it is not automatic and, moreover, is not really helpful when we have to get up and live in this complicated world. (Small example: If your loved one dies or is injured in a terrible accident or crime ... realizing Buddha Nature may help one see beyond mere loss or death, it may help you forgive in one aspect, it may help free one of anger, it may allow one a sense Peace and no Loss ... but the human side may still cry in grief and ask why and feel some resentment and great loss. The two ways of seeing together produce great Wisdom and Compassion, but I would never want to give up either way of experiencing such an event. I want to live by Buddha Nature, but I also cherish my humanity. I want Peace, yet I want to cry ... I want to know Peace and yet cry with my broken heart at once.)

Realization will tend to make us more loving, more generous, more forgiving, more accepting, less fearful, less frustrated or angry and all the rest ... but, so long as we are in this world of Samsara, we are still humans who sometimes feel not like that.

So, Practice-Enlightenment is not an "automatic," but a realization (meaning, "to feel and understand in the bones") and a realization (meaning, "to make it real in each choice by our words, thoughts and acts") of Buddha Nature living in this complicated world. It does not make us saints or robots (perhaps somewhere down the road, 100000 lives from now when we are all perfect golden Buddhas, but not here in this life, in the muddy trenches of the front lines of this life for now). Now, we must simply realize-realize Buddha Nature and do our best.

That is my view. Please find your own Buddha Nature.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jakuden]

Oh, yes!

But here is my feeling on this ...

... (and, please, Geerish, do Sit and Practice yourself and find for yourself "Buddha Nature". Do not be hamstrung or limited by my words if you disagree) ...

Buddha Nature reveals a truth about us and all things, always present, whereby there is no anger or killing or other violence possible (because no you and no me separate, so no doer and no done), nothing to steal or crave (for no separate things, thus no need or lack) . This is a Peaceful and Whole realm that, while right here, is often hidden by our divided thinking and the resulting selfishness, anger and frustration that we feel when our brains only see this samsaric world of separation.

In our Bodhisattva Vows, we "save the sentient beings" by letting the separate beings also experience such Fact. That is why it is sometimes said by Zen and other Mahayana Teachers that "we 'save the sentient beings' ultimately by showing them that, from the startless start, there were never truly any 'sentient beings' in need of saving, nor any lack to fill).

However, when you and I day to day must live in this samsaric world of "me and you", mine and yours, lack and need, win and lose etc. etc., things are a bit complicated. I do not feel that realizing the above Truth, even profoundly, means that we are necessarily going to live in this world free of the selfishness of our "little self." Until we are dead (and become what the Buddhists called "pari-nirvana' which is only the realm of "no me and you"), we are still people with human bodies, brains wired for selfish drives and instincts, fears, thoughts of past and future, judgments and divided ideas we need to survive, jealousies and all the rest of the human condition. Samsara.

Thus, Dogen (although most Zen teachers actually said about the same if you look carefully at their words and recommendations) spoke of "Practice-Enlightenment." The above realization of "no me-ness" helps avoid the selfishness and all the rest, but it is far from "automatic" by that alone in this world of "me-ness". (I bet a lot of the Rabbis and Christian mystics in the OP to this thread realized this too). No, such realization frees the heart of much of the selfishness, and the excess desire, anger and frustration, fears and judgments, divided thinking ... but it is not automatic and, moreover, is not really helpful when we have to get up and live in this complicated world. (Small example: If your loved one dies or is injured in a terrible accident or crime ... realizing Buddha Nature may help one see beyond mere loss or death, it may help you forgive in one aspect, it may help free one of anger, it may allow one a sense Peace and no Loss ... but the human side may still cry in grief and ask why and feel some resentment and great loss. The two ways of seeing together produce great Wisdom and Compassion, but I would never want to give up either way of experiencing such an event. I want by Buddha Nature, but I also cherish my humanity. I want Peace, yet I want to cry ... I want to know Peace and yet cry with my broken heart at once.)

Realization will tend to make us more loving, more generous, more forgiving, more accepting, less fearful, less frustrated or angry and all the rest ... but, so long as we are in this world of Samsara, we are still humans who sometimes feel not like that.

So, Practice-Enlightenment is not an "automatic," but a realization (meaning, "to feel and understand in the bones") and a realization (meaning, "to make it real in each choice by our words, thoughts and acts") of Buddha Nature living in this complicated world. It does not make us saints or robots (perhaps somewhere down the road, 100000 lives from now when we are all perfect golden Buddhas, but not here in this life, in the muddy trenches of the front lines of this life for now). Now, we must simply realize Buddha Nature and do our best.

That is my view. Please find your own Buddha Nature.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Thank you Jundo.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mp]

Oh, yes!

But here is my feeling on this ...

... (and, please, Geerish, do Sit and Practice yourself and find for yourself "Buddha Nature". Do not be tied up or limited by my words if you disagree) ...

Buddha Nature reveals a truth about us and all things, always present, whereby there is no anger or killing or other violence possible (because no you and no me separate, so no doer and no done), nothing to steal or crave (for no separate things, thus no need or lack) . This is a Peaceful and Whole realm that, while right here, is often hidden by our divided thinking and the resulting selfishness, anger and frustration that we feel when our brains only see this samsaric world of separation.

In our Bodhisattva Vows, we "save the sentient beings" by letting the separate beings also experience such Fact. That is why it is sometimes said by Zen and other Mahayana Teachers that "we 'save the sentient beings' ultimately by showing them that, from the startless start, there were never truly any 'sentient beings' in need of saving, nor any lack to fill).

However, when you and I day to day must live in this samsaric world of "me and you", mine and yours, lack and need, win and lose etc. etc., things are a bit complicated. I do not feel that realizing the above Truth, even profoundly, means that we are necessarily going to live in this world free of the selfishness of our "little self." Until we are dead (and become what the Buddhists called "pari-nirvana' which is only the realm of "no me and you"), we are still people with human bodies, brains wired for selfish drives and instincts, fears, thoughts of past and future, judgments and divided ideas we need to survive, jealousies and all the rest of the human condition. Samsara.

Thus, Dogen (although most Zen teachers actually said about the same if you look carefully at their words and recommendations) spoke of "Practice-Enlightenment." The above realization of "no me-ness" helps avoid the selfishness and all the rest, but it is far from "automatic" by that alone in this world of "me-ness". (I bet a lot of the Rabbis and Christian mystics in the OP to this thread realized this too). No, such realization frees the heart of much of the selfishness, and the excess desire, anger and frustration, fears and judgments, divided thinking ... but it is not automatic and, moreover, is not really helpful when we have to get up and live in this complicated world. (Small example: If your loved one dies or is injured in a terrible accident or crime ... realizing Buddha Nature may help one see beyond mere loss or death, it may help you forgive in one aspect, it may help free one of anger, it may allow one a sense Peace and no Loss ... but the human side may still cry in grief and ask why and feel some resentment and great loss. The two ways of seeing together produce great Wisdom and Compassion, but I would never want to give up either way of experiencing such an event. I want by Buddha Nature, but I also cherish my humanity. I want Peace, yet I want to cry ... I want to know Peace and yet cry with my broken heart at once.)

Realization will tend to make us more loving, more generous, more forgiving, more accepting, less fearful, less frustrated or angry and all the rest ... but, so long as we are in this world of Samsara, we are still humans who sometimes feel not like that.

So, Practice-Enlightenment is not an "automatic," but a realization (meaning, "to feel and understand in the bones") and a realization (meaning, "to make it real in each choice by our words, thoughts and acts") of Buddha Nature living in this complicated world. It does not make us saints or robots (perhaps somewhere down the road, 100000 lives from now when we are all perfect golden Buddhas, but not here in this life, in the muddy trenches of the front lines of this life for now). Now, we must simply realize Buddha Nature and do our best.

That is my view. Please find your own Buddha Nature.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Agreed, this is a wonderful expression. Thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Getchi]

So it has been said, holiness is not what enters the mouth, but what comes forth from it.


Sattoday
Lay

Geoff.

[Suuko]

Oh, yes!

But here is my feeling on this ...

... (and, please, Geerish, do Sit and Practice yourself and find for yourself "Buddha Nature". Do not be tied up or limited by my words if you disagree) ...

Buddha Nature reveals a truth about us and all things, always present, whereby there is no anger or killing or other violence possible (because no you and no me separate, so no doer and no done), nothing to steal or crave (for no separate things, thus no need or lack) . This is a Peaceful and Whole realm that, while right here, is often hidden by our divided thinking and the resulting selfishness, anger and frustration that we feel when our brains only see this samsaric world of separation.

In our Bodhisattva Vows, we "save the sentient beings" by letting the separate beings also experience such Fact. That is why it is sometimes said by Zen and other Mahayana Teachers that "we 'save the sentient beings' ultimately by showing them that, from the startless start, there were never truly any 'sentient beings' in need of saving, nor any lack to fill).

However, when you and I day to day must live in this samsaric world of "me and you", mine and yours, lack and need, win and lose etc. etc., things are a bit complicated. I do not feel that realizing the above Truth, even profoundly, means that we are necessarily going to live in this world free of the selfishness of our "little self." Until we are dead (and become what the Buddhists called "pari-nirvana' which is only the realm of "no me and you"), we are still people with human bodies, brains wired for selfish drives and instincts, fears, thoughts of past and future, judgments and divided ideas we need to survive, jealousies and all the rest of the human condition. Samsara.

Thus, Dogen (although most Zen teachers actually said about the same if you look carefully at their words and recommendations) spoke of "Practice-Enlightenment." The above realization of "no me-ness" helps avoid the selfishness and all the rest, but it is far from "automatic" by that alone in this world of "me-ness". (I bet a lot of the Rabbis and Christian mystics in the OP to this thread knew this too). No, such realization frees the heart of much of the selfishness, and the excess desire, anger and frustration, fears and judgments, divided thinking ... but it is not automatic and, moreover, is not really helpful when we have to get up and live in this complicated world. (Small example: If your loved one dies or is injured in a terrible accident or crime ... realizing Buddha Nature may help one see beyond mere loss or death, it may help you forgive in one aspect, it may help free one of anger, it may allow one a sense Peace and no Loss ... but the human side may still cry in grief and ask why and feel some resentment and great loss. The two ways of seeing together produce great Wisdom and Compassion, but I would never want to give up either way of experiencing such an event. I want to live by Buddha Nature, but I also cherish my humanity. I want Peace, yet I want to cry ... I want to know Peace and yet cry with my broken heart at once.)

Realization will tend to make us more loving, more generous, more forgiving, more accepting, less fearful, less frustrated or angry and all the rest ... but, so long as we are in this world of Samsara, we are still humans who sometimes feel not like that.

So, Practice-Enlightenment is not an "automatic," but a realization (meaning, "to feel and understand in the bones") and a realization (meaning, "to make it real in each choice by our words, thoughts and acts") of Buddha Nature living in this complicated world. It does not make us saints or robots (perhaps somewhere down the road, 100000 lives from now when we are all perfect golden Buddhas, but not here in this life, in the muddy trenches of the front lines of this life for now). Now, we must simply realize-realize Buddha Nature and do our best.

That is my view. Please find your own Buddha Nature.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

Hi Jundo,

I carried this question in my heart for a really Long time. Reading about Master Dogen showed me some light and your description just dropped the blindfold.

Gassho to treeleaf,
ST/LAH,
Geerish.

[Kyonin]

Buddha nature pervades the whole universe!

Thank you Jundo.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAN

[Byokan]

wow. Thank you Jundo.

Gassho
Byōkan
sat + lah

[Getchi]

Thank you again Jundo, the more I learn the more I realize that attitude is so important.

As for holiness, I recall Nishijima Roshi writing that the "shisho" (transmission certificate) is only clothes and ink and so can not hold religious value, but that Buddhism is a realistic faith and so value is found in many physical traditions".

I understathis as the ink and silk are empty of inherent power or value, instead it is the faith we feel upon seeing these things that has any value at all,and even that is only as a means to encourage faith in zen practice.

Gassho
Sattoday/LAH

Geoff.