The First Precept and Eating Meat

[Jakudo]

I believe it boils down to choice. If I have the choice not to participate in the killing of animals, it is what I choose to do. I've been vegetarian for about 15 years but recently started to eat fish again because of being extremely low in B12. It seems I don't store B12 like others do. So I tried giving myself injections for about a year but could not keep my levels high enough.


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[Kaishin]

Excellent! now we are talking science. this is a lengthy but very interesting podcast with gary taubes about diet. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...385172153&mt=2

gassho

risho
-sattoday

Interesting, I was at my absolute fattest when I was a vegan (for about three years, and vegetarian for another two). I've been slimmest while maintaining a high fat, low starch diet (mostly dairy, meat, eggs). On my latest physical my numbers looked better than they ever had.

I don't have a problem eating meat anymore. Humans seem to value larger animals more than small ones. We will weep over the slaughter of a cow (a massive animal whose single death can feed a family for months) but think nothing of the countless bajillions of voles, birds, and other small animals killed harvesting/poisoning veggies. A rabbit suffers just like a mammal 1000 times its size (trust me, I've heard their screams when my dog gets ahold of them...).

Buy freerange if you can afford it--factory farming is unquestionably awful for the animals. But eating animals is not evil.

-satToday (and had cream in my coffee and chicken for lunch)

[Joyo]

I eat meat. I hunt to put meat on the table and try to obtain meat from animals that were treated well during their lives. I see that as my evolutionary heritage. As I discussed a year or so ago on a similar Jukai thread, I worked for 35 years trying to reduce the numbers of animals (wildlife...insects to eagles, lizards to bears) destroyed by agriculture. And also to restore previous croplands to once again support wildlife. As mentioned above by Jundo and Joyo, annual farming practices result in animal deaths. However the major impact (destruction of life) is creating cropland. Before the land was cropland it was a forest, wetland, prairie or some other ecosystem that supported billions of living things that were destroyed when the land was converted. In fact I do not eat anything made from soybeans (unless it is offered to me) because of my memories of the destruction of so much bottomland hardwood forests and the diverse wildlife that once lived there. Nor do I believe others are wrong for doing so...i just have experiences that affect my choices. When I see the word organic I do not feel joy because I know as the demand grows ecosystems with their animals are being destroyed to meet the criteria to label the product as organic.

These are "my" feelings based on my biocentric view of the world that my brain attached itself too when i was very young. My life has always been surrounded by animals both wild and domestic. And yet that perspective does not prevent me from taking a deer anymore than the mountain lion that hunts the same area as I. I see humans as art of the ecosystem not separate from it which determined my life''s path and profession. To me the choices others make regarding What to eat is basd on their own paradignms and I respect them There are many paths, we each choose ours.

With this said i also embrace the precept "Do no kill". I do not take any life needlessly. I move all insects outside my house. I move rattlesnakes and other animals off the road before others kill them purposely or not.

Death gives life. None of us are free from that.

Gassho

Doshin
Sattoday/LAH

I always appreciate your perspective on this topic, Doshin. You clearly have a love for the land and all the animals in it.

Gassho
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Kenshou]

I have enjoyed reading the many and varied responses in this thread. Many valid view points, as all view points are valid.
I personally am "vegetarian" so far as I won't cook or buy meat, although if my wife buys steak and cooks it for dinner I will not refuse the meal she has taken the time and effort to lovingly prepare.
Having said that we generally do not buy vegetables from the supermarket either. We are lucky enough to live in a house with a mid-sized yard and grow most of varieties we need, and have a stand out the front so others can take free veg also. Even this though is not completely free from killing, although the strongest pesticides we use are vinegar and chilli, it still kills the ants we spray.
Not to mention the countless insects, spiders and more than must get killed in simply the turning of the soil.

Gassho
Patrick

Sat today

[Ryudo]

So many comments.
So many wise words...
Yet, please allow me to add:
I am vegan and I am in perfect health.
No creature deserves to die just becouse someone enjoys the taste of their meat.
Our human capacities do not give us unlimited rights.
Is the choice really ours to make?

Ask yourself sincerely: "Are my arguments not just excuses?"

Gassho
Marcus
SatToday / LAH

[Jakuden]

I was on a low fat, almost vegan (ate some fish) diet in my 20's; extremely athletic, but had bad lipid numbers every year. High bad cholesterol, low good cholesterol, etc. Figured it was genetic. After a change in my 30's to include some meat and animal products in my diet, my lipids normalized, for 20 years now. Even though I am overweight and out of shape.🤷*♀️

As a veterinarian, I wonder what would happen to many of the domestic species I learned to care for if humanity completely stopped needing animal products. Is it ok if they all just die out? Or should they be pets or free range like cows and dogs on other countries, suffering disease and injury?
No excuses--just a topic that is grey rather than black and white, like most others.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH

As a vete


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[Eishuu]

Hi Kaishin, I'm on a low starch, high fat diet too and I love it!

Gassho
Lucy
sat today/LAH

[Risho]

Memphis meats is doing some interesting stuff. They are creating meat - sort of Star Trek-ish in a way, but very cool.

I may have heard this joke here (I definitely cannot take credit for it)- how do you know someone is a vegan/vegetarian? They F#%$@#*^ tell you!

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Joyo]

[URL=

I may have heard this joke here (I definitely cannot take credit for it)- how do you know someone is a vegan/vegetarian? They F#%$@#*^ tell you!

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

And if they don't tell you, how would you know?

Gassho
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Mp]

And if they don't tell you, how would you know?

Gassho
Joyo
sat today/lah

Exactly! Also Riso, your statement seems quite judgemental...as Joyo stated, how would you know?

Right action is not just in what we do, but what we say.

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Risho]

guys it was a joke. lighten up.

edit: its funny; the negative reaction pissed me off, so I responded with a negative response. then I realized that must be how it felt to read my joke.

so I want to apologize for that joke. it came from a place of humor but i didnt realize it could also come off offensively. so the cycle of pissed off ends now

gassho

risho
-sattoday

[Jundo]

guys it was a joke. lighten up.

edit: its funny; the negative reaction pissed me off, so I responded with a negative response. then I realized that must be how it felt to read my joke.

so I want to apologize for that joke. it came from a place of humor but i didnt realize it could also come off offensively. so the cycle of pissed off ends now

gassho

risho
-sattoday

It was a joke! It was also funny ... because it is kinda true about all of us about something!

And Jisho had the kindness to scramble his F#%$@#*^ words. (I assume that F#%$@#*^ = Fudgin')

By the way, no place to put this ... I came across this "Ceremonia de Zen Clown" this morning, from a group in Columbia. We have to do this one day.

(Actually, this is kinda how we look on our best days!)



Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

guys it was a joke. lighten up.

edit: its funny; the negative reaction pissed me off, so I responded with a negative response. then I realized that must be how it felt to read my joke.

so I want to apologize for that joke. it came from a place of humor but i didnt realize it could also come off offensively. so the cycle of pissed off ends now

gassho

risho
-sattoday

No apology needed Risho, just sharing my view, all is good.

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Kyonin]

Clown Zen ceremony. I love it. We should do it

It reminds me of our own Harlem Zen Shake!



Gassho,

Kyonin

[Risho]

hahahahah

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[hamlin81]

I've been vegetarian for about 16 years.

I think people should be mindful of where their food comes from. I think meat-eating is extremely violent. If you buy meat from a grocery store, you are creating a demand that requires another animal to be killed to replace it. It's promoting death and suffering.

I've often struggled with any spiritual path that doesn't promote vegetarianism as it's ideal. And I also get very exasperated that most people in our culture don't seem to think twice about killing for food.

That being said, I think MINDFULNESS is the key. Even if someone doesn't completely give up meat, I think reducing meat consumption is a big start. Even having a "vegetarian day" once every week. Or choosing a vegetarian option when it is available. Little steps...

If everyone just reduced, it would still have a big impact on the amount of animals that have to die for our food. Sometimes being compassionate also requires some inconvenience in what we are accustomed to.

[Jishin]

I've been vegetarian for about 16 years.

I think people should be mindful of where their food comes from. I think meat-eating is extremely violent. If you buy meat from a grocery store, you are creating a demand that requires another animal to be killed to replace it. It's promoting death and suffering.

I've often struggled with any spiritual path that doesn't promote vegetarianism as it's ideal. And I also get very exasperated that most people in our culture don't seem to think twice about killing for food.

That being said, I think MINDFULNESS is the key. Even if someone doesn't completely give up meat, I think reducing meat consumption is a big start. Even having a "vegetarian day" once every week. Or choosing a vegetarian option when it is available. Little steps...

If everyone just reduced, it would still have a big impact on the amount of animals that have to die for our food. Sometimes being compassionate also requires some inconvenience in what we are accustomed to.

Hi,

I love a delicious medium rare steak when there is nothing else to eat. I bet you do too.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Hi,

I love a delicious medium rare steak when there is nothing else to eat. I bet you do too.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Jishin,

I think it wrong to say that he would love to eat steak when he has strong feelings otherwise. Some people might, for example, even prefer to not eat to the extent possible rather than eat meat. Thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

By the way, no better place to post this. Here is a rather well known 18th Century Japanese satire on Buddha's Nehan (Parinirvance Death Scene) called "Vegetable Nirvana" ...

Here is the original ...

Yasai Nehan (Vegetable Nirvana)

By Ito Jakuchu (March 2, 1716 - October 27, 1800)
Yasai Nehan painted around 1792

For an explanation of the significance of this painting of vegetables by Ito Jakuchu,
Parinirvana (Death scene - Liberation) paintings, the views of Tendai Buddhists
about the Buddha-nature of plants, and the cultural significance of radishes and
turnips in Japan, please refer to the essay by Yoshiaki Shimizu "Multiple
Commemorations: The Vegetable Nehan of Ito Jakuchu," found in
Flowing Traces: Buddhism in the Literary and Visual Arts of Japan,
edited by James H. Sanford (Princeton University, 1992).

-------------

The implication of the content of the Yasai Hehan is that the issue of life
and death for all beings, sentient or insentient, always returns to the essential
teaching of the Buddha. Blurring the conventional distinction of things,
this message applies as much to vegetables as to humans.
- Yoshiaki Shimizu, Multiple Commemorations

[Jishin]

Jishin,

I think it wrong to say that he would love to eat steak when he has strong feelings otherwise. Some people might, for example, even prefer to not eat to the extent possible rather than eat meat. Thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

I have been a vegetarian for close to 2 years but unfortunately do not have the choice of always not eating meat. For example, when I am traveling or when my kids bring home leftovers that will be thrown away. You are right. I should not apply my ethical standards to other people. Just being my goofy �� self.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Http://www.treeleaf.org/now/

[hamlin81]

Jishin,

I think it wrong to say that he would love to eat steak when he has strong feelings otherwise. Some people might, for example, even prefer to not eat to the extent possible rather than eat meat. Thank you.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Thanks Jundo. It's definitely something I feel extremely strongly about.

[Kaishin]

Hi,

I love a delicious medium rare steak when there is nothing else to eat. I bet you do too.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

If there is nothing else to eat, just let me know and I will slaughter a deer and send you several months worth of food!

Or if you prefer, I can send you a pallet of tofu, but that will sadly have a much greater negative impact on the environment, and significantly more suffering involved in its creation But you'll feel better about it, right?

[Jishin]

If there is nothing else to eat, just let me know and I will slaughter a deer and send you several months worth of food!

Or if you prefer, I can send you a pallet of tofu, but that will sadly have a much greater negative impact on the environment, and significantly more suffering involved in its creation But you'll feel better about it, right?

I am a vegetarian and am not soliciting, but if you send me some deer meat I can not let it go to waste.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Http://www.treeleaf.org/now/

[Jundo]

I am a vegetarian and am not soliciting, but if you send me some deer meat I can not let it go to waste.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Http://www.treeleaf.org/now/

From the evidence, this appears to have been the historical Buddha's attitude on such things.

However, that was in the days before industrial farming, Costco and massive pollution from pig farms etc.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/25/o...pig-farms.html

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[hamlin81]

I think if I've read correctly, Buddha and his disciples only ate meat if it wasn't killed specifically for them.

[Jundo]

I think if I've read correctly, Buddha and his disciples only ate meat if it wasn't killed specifically for them.

That is true, in my understanding. But they ate meat, although I cannot say the quantity. Please see my earlier posts in this thread ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post200985

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post201045

... also in there, don't miss the frog story written by a western Theravadan monk ...

even the Buddha ate meat. Unfortunately, meat eating is often seen by westerners as an indulgence on the part of the monks. Nothing could be further from the truth - I was a strict vegetarian for three years before I became a monk. In my first years as a monk in North-East Thailand, when I bravely faced many a meal of sticky rice and boiled frog (the whole body bones and all), or rubbery snails, red-ant curry or fried grasshoppers - I would have given ANYTHING to be a vegetarian again! On my first Christmas in N.E. Thailand an American came to visit the monastery a week or so before the 25th. It seemed too good to be true, he had a turkey farm and yes, he quickly understood how we lived and promised us a turkey for Christmas. He said that he would choose a nice fat one especially for us... and my heart sank. We cannot accept meat knowing it was killed especially for monks. We refused his offer. So I had to settle for part of the villager's meal - frogs again.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Ryudo]

Reading over some new comments in this thread I am struck by the strong emotions that arise both from vegetarians/vegans and meat eaters. Very much like when the subject surfaces in my daily life and conversations.
So now I wonder: how come we feel so stronly about this? Are our emotions, often with underlaying anger, justified? I must admit that I struggle with these emotions.
How do we handle strong emotions in Buddhism?
Maybe there's a talk or an article on this topic.

Gassho
Marcus
SatToday/LAH

[Risho]

I think that if you are a meat eater, fine. If you are a vegan fine. If you are a vegetarian that's fine. If you are anything, I'm going to respect your opinion. I think personally what triggers me is when I perceive a sanctimonious view or attitude in someone. And this applies to whatever they are. Sanctimony is my trigger. lol

Gassho,

Risho

[Geika]

I agree, Risho.

Gassho, sat today

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[Enjaku]

Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat LAH

[Tai Shi]

I began the week talking with a Treeleaf member on Skype, and some of our conversation involved his approach to being vegetarian. I asked about various protein sources, supplements, dairy and egg intake, vegan vs. ovo lactos, allergies, gluten, non-gluten, and we covered a wealth of vegetarian ideologies. What we left out was our Buddhist approach. Next night while my wife was preparing a savory spaghetti meat sauce, I began explaining my friends diet, all the ideas I'd learned, how we could invest in a grist mill, canning equipment, dehydrators, simple cheesecloth, uses for tofu, all manner of vegetarian meals. She stopped me (I'm disabled), and she said sternly, "I'm not going to do all that work. You'll eat what's put in front of you." Gently she served me up a delicious salad with excellent blue cheese dressing, and our traditional family recipe spaghetti and meat sauce. She and I sat down gratefully to a wonderful home-cooked meal. Next time I sat in front of the computer with my friend, a Buddhist much longer than me, I related this story to him. He responded, "Good plan, eat what's put before you, and eat it gratefully."

Tai Shi
std
Gassho

[Jundo]

Reading over some new comments in this thread I am struck by the strong emotions that arise both from vegetarians/vegans and meat eaters. Very much like when the subject surfaces in my daily life and conversations.
So now I wonder: how come we feel so stronly about this? Are our emotions, often with underlaying anger, justified? I must admit that I struggle with these emotions.
How do we handle strong emotions in Buddhism?
Maybe there's a talk or an article on this topic.

Gassho
Marcus
SatToday/LAH

I hope it is okay, I put this and related posts in their own thread ...

SPLIT THREAD: HANDLING STRONG EMOTIONS
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...TRONG-EMOTIONS

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

Gassho,
Enjaku
Sat LAH

In parts of Asia, they eat A-holes too. Not so common, more waste not want not folk food, and only when well scrubbed.

It smells like urine when it’s fresh which isn’t surprising since it is the intestine and that’s where crap goes through. But most supermarkets will have it cleaned, bleached and prepared. It usually comes in a tube, uncut. Before preparation, you cut across so that it’s like little rings, like calamari. Unless you have a sharp knife, I use a pair of scissors to cut it. It’s slippery but not slimy (if the supermarket cleaned it well) but it does have a pungent urine smell like kidneys (which is also delicious).

You can boil it or deep fry it. Deep fried bung is common as a chinese late night snack served with a sweet chili sauce. I tried deep frying and it turned out delicious, however, my house smelled like a stale public bathroom for weeks so never again. I boil it a la hot pot style. You boil it for a good 10 minutes. The skin/casing will shrink and won’t smell as much and when you bite down, it’s all fatty lining. Horrible horrible for your health I’m sure so it’s not something I would eat on a regular basis. Oh who am I kidding, my arteries are probably clogged because of bung. Anyway, it goes well with soy sauce and if it’s undercooked, it can be a bit chewy.

http://www.clovegarden.com/recipes/cmm_pigbung1.html

Now this may be enough to turn even our most committed meat eaters into vegetarians.

(And before you ask, yes I have ... perhaps more unknowingly).

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

PS - The name of the dish may also tell you a bit about the origin of the English slang for that part ... bung.

[Jakuden]

In parts of Asia, they eat A-holes too. Not so common, more waste not want not folk food, and only when well scrubbed. The taste is, shall we say, unique even so.

http://www.clovegarden.com/recipes/cmm_pigbung1.html

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

🤢

That's as icky as boiled frogs... although I've seen firsthand how much manure goes into milk and yet I still drink it. 🤷*♀️

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Tai Shi]

Yes Jishin, here we agree. Sometimes protein is scarce, and people will eat a lot of protein sources including dung beetles and sphincter muscles.
Tai Shi
std
Gassho

[Jishin]

Lots and lots of people love to eat sphincter muscles I am told.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Risho]

you are what you eat?

gassho,

risho
-st.lah

[Eishuu]

After reading the last few posts of this thread yesterday, and the delightful turn it has taken, I have to admit I went vegetarian for the rest of the day and had some lovely omelette and tofu. Suddenly inspired to to cut down on my meat consumption.

Gassho
Lucy
sat today/LAH

[Kyonin]

Hi guys,

As you know I am in Mexico and I also have traveled to and have a lot of friends/family in many places in South America. Poverty is huge and people would eat whatever is available and they don't have the luxury to pick nutrition based on philosophy. People eat whatever they can manage to find.

Going organic, fair trade, buying at farmer's markets or Whole Foods... all that are luxuries for first world countries.

Just this week a friend in Venezuela was happy to the tears because she could afford (and was lucky to find in the black market) some bread, a few eggs and butter, which was a nice change from lard and pasta.

In the high lands of Peru people have to eat rats and gophers.

In many towns in Mexico people would eat industrial breads like Twinkies and give Coke to new born babies because they can't afford milk, but Capitalist food is everywhere and super cheap. There are also towns where food is so scarce that people hunt for pigeons and eat ants or worms.

In Bolivia a friend and her husband feel blessed when they can find tomatoes because all they can afford is alpaca or llama meat and some mountain roots and greens, since their family had to learn to grow the animals. Fair food distribution is unheard there.

In poor towns in Colombia people will eat the whole pig and they won't throw anything away. The whole population of a town would gather for ceremonial killing of the animal, prepare it and eat it all. Yes, intestines included (which by the way are by far the most nutritious part of the animal).

The examples are too many to list.

Me? Eating animal fat and protein saved my life keeping me away from heart disease and diabetes, and helped me rebuild my knees and back.

But my point is: if veganism works for you, good. But don't judge people. You don't know the different stories, cultures and reasons.

At the end, living beings will do whatever they can to keep life alive.

But then again, that's just a simple man's opinion.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Tairin]

Thank you Kyonin for keeping it real. Sometimes those of us in the First World get a little wrapped up in ourselves and lose touch with the reality that the majority of the world's people face.

And I am reminded of all the blessings I am grateful for.

Gassho
Warren
Sat/LAH today

[aprapti]

thank you Kyonin. I (we?) don't realize always how lucky we are over here..


Coos
std

[Doshin]

Kyonin

Thank you for sharing.



Doshin
St/LAH

[Jakuden]

Hi guys,

As you know I am in Mexico and I also have traveled to and have a lot of friends/family in many places in South America. Poverty is huge and people would eat whatever is available and they don't have the luxury to pick nutrition based on philosophy. People eat whatever they can manage to find.

Going organic, fair trade, buying at farmer's markets or Whole Foods... all that are luxuries for first world countries.

Just this week a friend in Venezuela was happy to the tears because she could afford (and was lucky to find in the black market) some bread, a few eggs and butter, which was a nice change from lard and pasta.

In the high lands of Peru people have to eat rats and gophers.

In many towns in Mexico people would eat industrial breads like Twinkies and give Coke to new born babies because they can't afford milk, but Capitalist food is everywhere and super cheap. There are also towns where food is so scarce that people hunt for pigeons and eat ants or worms.

In Bolivia a friend and her husband feel blessed when they can find tomatoes because all they can afford is alpaca or llama meat and some mountain roots and greens, since their family had to learn to grow the animals. Fair food distribution is unheard there.

In poor towns in Colombia people will eat the whole pig and they won't throw anything away. The whole population of a town would gather for ceremonial killing of the animal, prepare it and eat it all. Yes, intestines included (which by the way are by far the most nutritious part of the animal).

The examples are too many to list.

Me? Eating animal fat and protein saved my life keeping me away from heart disease and diabetes, and helped me rebuild my knees and back.

But my point is: if veganism works for you, good. But don't judge people. You don't know the different stories, cultures and reasons.

At the end, living beings will do whatever they can to keep life alive.

But then again, that's just a simple man's opinion.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Thank you so much for this post Kyonin! That was the perspective really lacking from this thread. Even in the US, although some of us can have this debate, many cannot. I wouldn't presume to promote veganism to my neighbors who work so hard 24-7 to make a living from their dairy farm, which has been their families' sustenance for generations.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Shoka]

Thank you so much for this post Kyonin! That was the perspective really lacking from this thread. Even in the US, although some of us can have this debate, many cannot. I wouldn't presume to promote veganism to my neighbors who work so hard 24-7 to make a living from their dairy farm, which has been their families' sustenance for generations.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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Jakuden,

It is so true. In Los Angeles there are many who can't understand why everyone does eat organic, gluten free, vegan, fair trade, etc etc. I'm often told, "It isn't that much more expensive" but they don't see that the few extra dollars just aren't there for many people. And there are plenty of people who live in areas where that isn't even a possibility.

I have a garden and I know for most of the gardeners it is a hobby, we go and enjoy growing stuff. But there are a few of the plots owner who use the garden to grow their produce. Harvest what they need, and what they eat that week depends on what has grown. Their plots look different than others, they aren't neat and tidy with walkways and the plants spread out in pretty patterns. Their plots don't sit empty during the winter or go untended when a heatwave hits.

It is a good to remember we are very fortunate be to able to debate the merits of different eating styles, and we shouldn't judge others for their decisions.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[Risho]

damn, kyonin right on!

gassho

risho
-st

[Jika]

Interesting.

People will eat whatever helps us survive, me too.
Would not let a baby starve because milk is not vegan.

Many of the problems in poor countries are worsened by climate change.

Fostering that won't make life easier anywhere.

If all people who live in areas were it is possible ate vegan, there would be more food for the poor.

1 lb of beef needs 12lb of plant food (soy and grains, not hay).

Over here, taxes are lower on milk and meat, due to a government support for this industry.
So of course poorer people buy meat.

I had already left this thread and will do so again now.

Discussing ethical decisions with people who will find only arguments for their self-righteousness is boring.
Slap. As requested.

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

[Catherine]

Interesting.

People will eat whatever helps us survive, me too.
Would not let a baby starve because milk is not vegan.

Many of the problems in poor countries are worsened by climate change.

Fostering that won't make life easier anywhere.

If all people who live in areas were it is possible ate vegan, there would be more food for the poor.

1 lb of beef needs 12lb of plant food (soy and grains, not hay).

Over here, taxes are lower on milk and meat, due to a government support for this industry.
So of course poorer people buy meat.

I had already left this thread and will do so again now.

Discussing ethical decisions with people who will find only arguments for their self-righteousness is boring.
Slap. As requested.

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

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[Catherine]

Dear Jika, you make a very good point with respect to the hegemony of the powerful meat industry which devastates the natural environment to the detriment mostly of poorer communities. While we ought not judge those who must eat meat for survival, the most powerful action that we in wealthier countries can do to protect the environment and to support the suffering poor in other parts of the world, is to desist from, or at least reduce, meat consumption. Therefore, thank you for your point. I really hope you do not leave!
Gassho
Cathy
Sat today


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[Joyo]

Interesting.

People will eat whatever helps us survive, me too.
Would not let a baby starve because milk is not vegan.

Many of the problems in poor countries are worsened by climate change.

Fostering that won't make life easier anywhere.

If all people who live in areas were it is possible ate vegan, there would be more food for the poor.

1 lb of beef needs 12lb of plant food (soy and grains, not hay).

Over here, taxes are lower on milk and meat, due to a government support for this industry.
So of course poorer people buy meat.

I had already left this thread and will do so again now.

Discussing ethical decisions with people who will find only arguments for their self-righteousness is boring.
Slap. As requested.

Gassho,
Jika
#sattoday

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Jakuden]

The chapter we are reading in the book club discusses what is meant by taking refuge in Sangha, and this thread is a good example... like chopping vegetables and putting them in a pot to make soup so that the flavors harmonize, we are individuals who harmonize with each other to form a community with the taste of the Dharma. I find my own viewpoint significantly expanded by all the discussion on this topic here, and find it remarkable that we can have such a thoughtful discussion around such a charged issue--truly the flavor of the Dharma. The Dharma here seems to include killing and which species we should or shouldn't kill for food or in the process of growing food; how we treat what we eat; the considerations of our own health and diet with and without meat; climate change and industrial farming and land destruction for crop growing; who has the choice to eat what, based on economics and circumstance; and government influence over our food choices. Pretty impressive.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH shortly!


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