The First Precept and Eating Meat

[Sekiyuu]

Despite the fact that I eat meat, and don't judge anyone who does or doesn't eat meat, to be honest it's not sustainable. The land and water use as well as greenhouse gas emissions of livestock, namely beef cows, is staggering:
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...mpact-on-earth

According to this article, if you don't want to give up meat but want to do /something/, you should give up beef. Even choosing lamb over beef would help.
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...more-than-cars

_/\_
Kenny
Sat Today

[Mitka]

It's been a while since I engaged in one of these discussions. When I became vegetarian around eleven years ago then vegan around 9 years ago I used to argue about this stuff until I was blue in the face. Nowadays, for one reason or another, I do not have the heart.

However I thought it would be worth it to throw a contrary and perhaps very controversial perspective into the mix. A lot of what has been said here I would say falls under what I call the argument for the right to exist. That is that humans have a right to exist and if we must kill (either plants or non-human animals) to do so it is justified. I would like to push back against that line of thought.

I don't know how common this is, but I am very troubled by the role we human animals are playing in this world, which I can only describe as a (nearly) unmitigated disaster; evolution's mistake. We are violent, short-sided animals that are always at war with those we do not perceive to be our own, whether they be non-human animals or other humans like ourselves. To live we must support system that inflict unbelievable suffering on other sentient beings, and untold destruction on the ecosphere that we all live. Even if we try to minimize our impact as much as we can we still have to pay taxes, which support wars and subsidize factory farms and pay for the institutions that support inequality in the world such as the accumulation of "Third World" resources to "First World" nations as well as things like institutional racism, sexism and all those other -isms. To eat a piece of chocolate, we are often supporting slavery in West Africa. To wear a tailored shirt, we are supporting sweat shops in Indonesia. Not only that but every time we get into a car, every time we turn on the lights or open a web browser, we are supporting industries that are pumping carbon dioxide in the air and changing the climate, accelerating the rate of species extinction, and creating a world that will be impoverished and in many areas unlivable for our descendants.

That our self-awareness is a vehicle for hitherto untold verizons of experience and beauty does not, for me, necessarily justify the disastrous role we are having on our planet.

We are living in the times of the next mass extinction of life on planet earth, and we are the cause. In light of this, I do wonder sometimes if we as humans have a right to exist and if it wouldn't be better if we all just went extinct or at least somehow returned to a lifestyle that supports minimal impact on our environment, such as hunter-gathering (which incidentally seems optimal for human health, if not for longevity of life)?

Or to put it another way, the asteroid that killed off the dinosaurs now, did it have a right to exist? I'm sure nobody today would think twice about destroying a similar asteroid that was bearing down on earth. But what if it was alive and self-aware just like ourselves? Does the life of one justify the deaths of billions? Or in our case, the life of billion justify the death of trillions?

These are questions I have agonized over for a long time, even to the point of feeling guilty for being alive, for being human, for being a member of a species that is killing the ability of this planet to support life.. While I try to have as little impact on the world as possible, I am afraid I am not always consistent. It's too easy to forget all this and fall into living life "as normal." But that normal is creating a lot of destruction to our dear planet.

Some people who think similarly to me have voluntarily decided not to have children to help reduce the population and ease the impact we are having on our world. This decision, I have to say, appeals to me.

I thought I would share these thoughts because they arose out of my thoughts on the questions concerning eating meat and because I know all you are dedicated to finding the best way to live out the ethics prescribed in the first precept. I wonder, what does the first precept have to say about our role as world-killers?

[Jakuden]

Mathias,

I don’t think this is an uncommon perspective, I think many of us share a lot of these thoughts sometimes. Personally, practice has helped me realize that it is all the dharma—the slavery, the taking of life to eat, the growth to dominance of a species and the extinction of a species. You could graph human population growth and exhaustion of resources the same way you graph the exponential rise and then stagnation of bacteria on a Petrie plate. You could say that it doesn’t matter to the Universe, or maybe even to the Earth—I like to think that maybe someday those weird deep-sea creatures will evolve into something self aware and climb out on land and see what happened to us millions or billions of years prior. Who knows? All we can do is act as skillfully upon each precept as we can, individually with as much awareness as we can muster, and when—not if—we realize we have done harm, try not to do it again. If we can’t trust the Universe to know what it’s doing, who can we trust??

**again spoken as a Novice who probably knows less than nothing **
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday/LAH


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[Jundo]

Hi,

Don’t know about you but I eat at whatever is put in front of me when famished.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

It is interesting, with you such a dog lover (I feel the same about the cat) that we don't include the pigs and cows with the same love.

I suppose the bottom line here is:

The historical Buddha, and most modern Thai, Tibetan and Japanese Buddhist priests (not only Zen) eat meat in moderation, while Chinese do not.

Even when I have sat Sesshin at the big Japanese monasteries, they serve pure vegetarian meals in the monastery, but disguised to seem like chicken and beef. I have been to other retreats with Japanese priests that served fish, meat and BEER! at the after-party,

It is probably best for this world that we try to turn away more and more from too much meat and fish. It is not good for the environment.

We should press for more humane treatment of the animals that we do eat. I am sure that they feel pain and fear, although are unlikely to experience the existential fear of death and dying that humans feel (lacking our abilities to wallow in thoughts of such things for years and years before the actual happening. I doubt that pigs worry about heaven or hell too.)

To reject meat, and be vegan or vegetarian is a lovely and compassionate path.

I actually think that science may find a way around this soon, perhaps "meat in a test tube?" Soilent Green? (For those who don't know the movie, I won't spoil. Let's just say that a "soilent green" "lunch" is not so appetizing).



There is room in Buddhism for both those who currently eat meat and those who do not, and those in between.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Zenmei]

I actually think that science may find a way around this soon, perhaps "meat in a test tube?" Soilent Green? (For those who don't know the movie, I won't spoil. Let's just say that a "soilent green" "lunch" is not so appetizing).

It doesn't have the same secret ingredient as the original Soylent Green, but Soylent and Huel are "nutritionally complete" powders that are made without animal products. I've been drinking Huel for most of my meals for the last few weeks. It's not bad, and I've lost 10 pounds so far. I would love to be a vegetarian, but I really have to struggle to eat most vegetables. My brain doesn't even register them as food.

Memphis Meats seems to be the current leader in what they're calling "clean meat". They take cell samples from animals and cultivate them in the lab to grow not quite artificial meat. Not exactly vegan, but it could end up being much less harmful than slaughtering animals.

Gassho, Zenmei (sat)

[Alfaiate]

Hey folks,



Our practice is to teach us too move past a world of duality, a world of division/separation, a world of judgement (this is better then that). What works for one may not work for someone else and that is ok. Do our best, be kind to one another, and be grateful for what we have. =)

Gassho
Shingen

Sat/LAH

Strong this.

[Jem]

Astonished to read some of the comments on this thread. The meaning of humane is 'kind, compassionate'. The ill treatment of 74 billion sentient creatures requires more than a weak misuse of the word humane. If anyone wants to fully understand veganism and our blinkered attitude to animals this blog is especially useful.

https://theresanelephantintheroomblog

[Ryudo]

Astonished to read some of the comments on this thread. The meaning of humane is 'kind, compassionate'. The ill treatment of 74 billion sentient creatures requires more than a weak misuse of the word humane. If anyone wants to fully understand veganism and our blinkered attitude to animals this blog is especially useful.

https://theresanelephantintheroomblog

Thank you Jem for your firm statement and for being one voice more for the voiceless.
The link you posted however is not working.
Please allow me to replace the link to the blog (I think) you meant.

https://theresanelephantintheroomblog.wordpress.com

Thank you again.
Thank you all.

Gassho/SatToday

[Anka]

Hello all,

I would like to just be a reminder here that all issues are not black and white. As noted before I do eat meat but strongly disagree with large factory farming. Yes it is possible to do both.

Another example of this, a few weeks ago there was a story of a person who payed to go kill a large old giraffe in Africa. My first reaction was anger at someone who thought taking the life of sentient being as sport. However, I read into the issue more and found some interesting information. The money this person paid is used to support the local villages and conservation activities...well that's good. The giraffe in question was so old it could no longer mate, but it was going around killing the younger male giraffes in the area..okay that's bad something obviously needed to be done. The remains from the animal were used to feed the local villages...again good.

So things are not always as they appear on the surface.

I could also talk about the current culture of team politics or us vs them but I won't. Just because someone is vegan and I eat meat does not make us mortal enemies that can never see eye to eye.

James F
Sat lah

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[Rosui]

Part of the reason I became a vegan was because i didn't agree industrial meat production. A guy called salatin is raising cows sustainably as part of a intergrated holistic permaculture system. Its the industrial way of raising em that's bad for the environment. Ya keep 'em right and you can rebuild the soil that was destroyed after a century of industrial agriculture and achieve vegetable production levels four times that of comparable industrial farms. ya aint supposed to feed cows corn that's the whole problem there. Cows eating the grass and cow manure makes the grass grow four times faster than normal which sequesters carbon. You can raise cows on places you cant grow anything else. I got a whole hill of cow manure on my kale and its really glad for it. Shouldn't rely on them exclusively though for protein. Milk is really amazing. Milk is a better hydration option than sports drinks because it absorbs faster and has about the same chemical makeup as the fluids its replacing also its great to get that extra protein right after a workout. Buy lamb its probably flown in from Australia or something. People need to think about eating local and cleaning up our food deserts where people can either go to like popeyes or the liquor store or taco bell to get food. Ya wanna save emissions you'd get rid of those long supply chains trucking nasty green tasteless red dyed tomatoes up from mexico to middle or coastal america .

If we produced less industrial corn it'd be a huge help to the environment and our health. We produce so much we dont know what to do with it. They were just dumping truckloads of it into the ocean at one point and its basically in like every ready made item at the grocery store. Anyway /rantOff
Gassho
Rosui
st

[willfarmer]

This is an interesting thread! I eat meat in moderation. I like to be mindful of how much meat I decided to feed to my family, and mindful of the source of the meat i.e. not factory farmed chicken. I dislike the mindless attitude to meat eating that is very prevalent in society.

I also like gathering wild food, and this includes spear fishing. I rarely buy fish because of the damage commercial fishing does to the oceans, but when I am able to selectively take a fish from the wild, with no more suffering than it could expect to endure from another predator, then I feel that this is better. It also gives me an opportunity to clear up some plastic and old fishing tackle from the seabed too.

Long may the debate continue.

Gassho.

Will.

Sat LAH.

[Ernstguitar]

Hi Mathew

I don't know how common this is, but I am very troubled by the role we human animals are playing in this world, which I can only describe as a (nearly) unmitigated disaster; evolution's mistake.

I took just this statement but I mean the whole text.
I admire your position. It is a clear statement. That is not so modern today. I would say, that there is a pluralistic narcisstic position in our days: "What is fine for me is right and o.k." "If I enjoy it, it cannot be wrong".

Thank you for your position.

Gassho

Ernst
sat today

[Joyo]

Hi Mathew


I would say, that there is a pluralistic narcisstic position in our days: "What is fine for me is right and o.k." "If I enjoy it, it cannot be wrong".

Thank you for your position.

Gassho

Ernst
sat today

Yes, there definitely is this mindset today, perhaps always, I can only speak for the time I've been on this earth. It's a mind disease running rampant.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Tai Shi]

I will simply say,

I have an iron deficiency because I eat mostly chicken, fish, eggs, dairy, pork, and turkey (I am still a Zen practitioner--in season, turkey--Christmas d Thanksgiving I am a Christian and usually give thanks for what I have) and beans. When we eat chicken or turkey, we pick the meat from the bones to use in delectable dishes. I do take a good iron supplement, but still I have this deficiency because of diet. I simply cannot afford the price of beef, and when we eat beef, it's usually hamburger, this in sauces. So, I'd be willing to eat more red meat if someone would give me more money--my doctor says red meet is good for me! I know I can only take the recommended dose of iron, so sometimes I receive a large iron infusion in the form of IV. My insurance pays for all my medical needs. I'm sure lack of red meat is not the only reason for my condition. However, my wife actually says a stake is cheaper at the local restaurant than from the store, and the steaks are prime. In the store one receives choice, tougher meat. The meal at the restaurant includes potato with all the real butter and sour cream you like, salad, and good bread with butter, toppings for the meat all for $8.99. Who can make a good beef meal for less? Because we are seniors, we often get a senior discount at restaurants. Then we eat a full beef meal for less than $16.00 for the two of us. Including tip. Meat is expensive, and beans are cheap, but one must watch diet.

Tai Shi
st/lah
Gassho

[Shokai]

Doreen and I go to a Restaurant close by that serves a delicious Liver and Onion entree. The Senior meal is even big and they split it in the kitchen for us. We find it very nourishing and filling. For the price of one meal. You can't get anything better than liver for iron content.

gassho, Shokai

stlah

[Emmet]

Verse 129 of the Dhammapada always resonated deeply with me, and I practiced vegetarianism quite happily for years (someone wiser than I once defined 'happiness' as when what you think, say, and do are in complete harmony). When I became ill, among other things it was discovered that I had virtually no B12; a nutrient found almost exclusively in animal protein. While a B12 deficiency wouldn't cause my neurologic illness, it could exacerbate it. Oral supplements and injections could not bring my B12 within normal parameters, so reluctantly at my mate's behest I added meat to my diet. Part of my rationale was related to my terminal diagnosis; if by eating meat I preempted a postmortem "what if/if only" for my mate, any karmic debt thus incurred would be more than an equitable price to pay to relieve her suffering, no matter in how small a measure.
Nowadays she does almost all of the food prep, and I try to practice not a vegetarian diet, but a Buddhist one; in the spirit of takuhatsu, I accept what is offered without discrimination and with sincere gratitude.

(When I didn't die on cue, they upgraded me from 'terminal' to merely 'chronic')

Sat today.

[Jundo]

Verse 129 of the Dhammapada always resonated deeply with me, and I practiced vegetarianism quite happily for years (someone wiser than I once defined 'happiness' as when what you think, say, and do are in complete harmony). When I became ill, among other things it was discovered that I had virtually no B12; a nutrient found almost exclusively in animal protein. While a B12 deficiency wouldn't cause my neurologic illness, it could exacerbate it. Oral supplements and injections could not bring my B12 within normal parameters, so reluctantly at my mate's behest I added meat to my diet. Part of my rationale was related to my terminal diagnosis; if by eating meat I preempted a postmortem "what if/if only" for my mate, any karmic debt thus incurred would be more than an equitable price to pay to relieve her suffering, no matter in how small a measure.
Nowadays she does almost all of the food prep, and I try to practice not a vegetarian diet, but a Buddhist one; in the spirit of takuhatsu, I accept what is offered without discrimination and with sincere gratitude.

(When I didn't die on cue, they upgraded me from 'terminal' to merely 'chronic')

Sat today.

The Dalai Lama eats meat for much the same reason.

MORGAN: I’m back with His Holiness, the Dalai Lama.

Your Holiness, I want to get into your life and the kind of lifestyle that you lead because you’re a fascinating man in many ways. First of all, you were a vegetarian. But then you got bored with that and went back to meat. Is that right?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, right. Of course, my early part of my life as in — under Tibetan, you see, our main diet non-vegetarian. Then after I came to India, 65, I give up eating meat and eggs and fish. Pure vegetarian. So, next, about 20 months, I remain that. Then some illness. The gallbladder, jaundice problem.

So, I — my sort of face become yellow. And nails and eyes become yellow. So later, I jokingly telling people, at that time, I truly become living Buddha.

(LAUGHTER)

DALAI LAMA: Yellow, yellow person.

(LAUGHTER)

DALAI LAMA: So I really making sort of — making effort to promote vegetarianism, but I myself remain non-vegetarian.

http://www.tibet.net/2012/04/text-of...erview-on-cnn/

More detail on his view here, not black or white:

https://www.elephantjournal.com/2011...s-to-eat-meat/

On Meat and Tibetan Buddhism, see also:

http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism...gMeatTibet.htm

We will discuss this again as we begin our preparations for Jukai, and reflect on the Precepts, from the start of September. Look for an announcement this week!

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH