LIVING by VOW: Author's Preface & Introduction - PP IX to 11

[Jundo]

Dear All,

We will begin reflections on Shohaku Okumura Roshi's LIVING BY VOW: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts ...

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/living-vow

This week, we look at the Author's Preface and the Introduction only.

Of course, you can discuss anything about the book in this thread (or stay silent). Please ask a question if there is something unclear, and I will do my best to find an answer. Here, I just suggest a few possible topics and observations:

Okumura Roshi, like many of us, is walking the fine line between preserving and keeping relevant certain traditions and practices, while also recognizing the conclusion of scholars on the realities of Buddhist history, the viewpoints of modern science and the like. Please note, for example, the number of times he will allude to the fact that scholars may doubt whether a particular mythical event actually happened, whether words once believed to be those of the historical Buddha were actually created much later, whether a certain legendary figure actually lived or is primarily a fiction. While usually repeating and not challenging such viewpoints by the scholars, Okumura will nonethless find some continued relevance in the old legends, myths etc.

Do you believe that the attitude of the Bodhisattva is vital to Zen Practice, and must be focused on helping others before (or together with) ourself? Do you feel like a Bodhisattva yourself according to the definitions given?

The Introduction briefly introduces all the many Chants that Okumura will be looking at more closely later in the book, and seeks to make the point that "Vow" is at the center of all of them. Do you get that?

What do you think about his comment, "Such a reflection and realization of one's own incompleteness is repentance" ?

Toward the end of the Introduction, there is a long passage from Master Dogen's Shobogenzo-Gyoji about "continuous practice" (which is also known as "Practice-Enlightenment"). Is his meaning clear to you, and any impressions?

Anyway, this is just the Introduction, and we will get into the heart of the book next time.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

Wonderful, thank you Jundo. Very much looking forward to this, as this is a wonderful book. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Banto]

From the intro: “Ordinary people are those who live being pulled by their karma (gosshō no bonpu); bodhisattvas are those who live led by their vows (ganshō no bosatsu).”

Could it be that we are both?

Loved the introduction, this is going to be a great study.
Gassho
SatToday

[M.C. Easton]

Dear All,

We will begin reflections on Shohaku Okumura Roshi's LIVING BY VOW: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts

What do you think about his comment, "Such a reflection and realization of one's own incompleteness is repentance" ?

Toward the end of the Introduction, there is a long passage from Master Dogen's Shobogenzo-Gyoji about "continuous practice" (which is also known as "Practice-Enlightenment"). Is his meaning clear to you, and any impressions?

Anyway, this is just the Introduction, and we will get into the heart of the book next time.

Gassho, J

SatToday

I loved the story of the king who realized he could not control his own anger. I do think this "realization of one's own incompleteness"--especially in the context of the bodhisattva's "endless" vows--can become repentance. But I think only if we take that realization and turn it into "the energy to study and practice diligently" (p. 7). I discover my own shortcomings daily, but that alone can lead to complacency or frustration very easily. There must be some direction for that realization to flow toward for it to become repentance. I think, anyway. ;-)

One question I do have is regarding this idea of lying down in the mud in order to be trampled on as a way of taking refuge in the Triple Treasure and vowing to become a buddha (p. 5). I felt some discomfort with this extreme form of submission and self-sacrifice. As a woman who spent 20 years in Mormonism, I experienced a lot of commands from religious leaders and my father to "submit" and "be obedient" and get a man to "lead" me. Self-sacrifice and self-abnegation were requisites for being a good Mormon woman in the wards where I grew up. So of course this image dredged up my past, and I balked at it. I think it is one thing to be all your life set over others and then decide to crawl on your hands and knees to prostrate yourself in the mud--but something else entirely if you have been told for decades that the mud is just where you belong. I'm sure all my baggage caused me to completely miss the point. Can someone help me see more clearly the message behind this story about lying down in the mud to be stepped on?

Thank you!
Gassho,
Melanie
SatToday

[Jakuden]

I loved the story of the king who realized he could not control his own anger. I do think this "realization of one's own incompleteness"--especially in the context of the bodhisattva's "endless" vows--can become repentance. But I think only if we take that realization and turn it into "the energy to study and practice diligently" (p. 7). I discover my own shortcomings daily, but that alone can lead to complacency or frustration very easily. There must be some direction for that realization to flow toward for it to become repentance. I think, anyway. ;-)

One question I do have is regarding this idea of lying down in the mud in order to be trampled on as a way of taking refuge in the Triple Treasure and vowing to become a buddha (p. 5). I felt some discomfort with this extreme form of submission and self-sacrifice. As a woman who spent 20 years in Mormonism, I experienced a lot of commands from religious leaders and my father to "submit" and "be obedient" and get a man to "lead" me. Self-sacrifice and self-abnegation were requisites for being a good Mormon woman in the wards where I grew up. So of course this image dredged up my past, and I balked at it. I think it is one thing to be all your life set over others and then decide to crawl on your hands and knees to prostrate yourself in the mud--but something else entirely if you have been told for decades that the mud is just where you belong. I'm sure all my baggage caused me to completely miss the point. Can someone help me see more clearly the message behind this story about lying down in the mud to be stepped on?

Thank you!
Gassho,
Melanie
SatToday

Hi Melanie,
Not sure I have the right answer to this, but my impression was that the point was that Sumedha had an option to use supernatural powers to take a "short cut," but instead decided to emulate the Buddha's life of service to others. Lying in the mud was symbolic of his decision to be a Bodhisattva, serving all other beings instead of himself. Most of us would probably justify taking the short cut, at least I know I probably would, lol. But unfortunately there don't seem to be any shortcuts to being a bodhisattva, it involves getting pretty intimately involved with the mud. 🤷*♀️

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Jundo]

Hi Melanie,
Not sure I have the right answer to this, but my impression was that the point was that Sumedha had an option to use supernatural powers to take a "short cut," but instead decided to emulate the Buddha's life of service to others. Lying in the mud was symbolic of his decision to be a Bodhisattva, serving all other beings instead of himself. Most of us would probably justify taking the short cut, at least I know I probably would, lol. But unfortunately there don't seem to be any shortcuts to being a bodhisattva, it involves getting pretty intimately involved with the mud. ��*♀️

Yes. I will also add that, when we Prostrate on the ground, it is a great exercise in humility and yielding. However, as we "raise up the Buddha's feet", one can also see that the whole world is raising us! (It depends how one looks at things, much like "Is Australia 'down under', or is America 'down' and Australia 'Up Over'? ) In any case, all supports and raises all, and it all balances out!

It is also just an example of "self-sacrifice," like when I offer my coat to my wife on a cold night, or my umbrella to a senior citizen in the rain. I am left cold and wet, but somehow warm in spirit.

In the West, many folks have trouble with bowing. In Asia, not so much ...



Gassho, J

SatToday

[Kyonin]

Thank you Jundo!

I have the book and I'm ready to roll

Gassho,

Kyonin
SatToday

[Kaishin]

From the intro: “Ordinary people are those who live being pulled by their karma (gosshō no bonpu); bodhisattvas are those who live led by their vows (ganshō no bosatsu).”

Could it be that we are both?

Loved the introduction, this is going to be a great study.
Gassho
SatToday

related: if anyone wants to support Okumura's zendo, you can buy a "Live by Vow, not by Karma" shirt from them

https://www.zazzle.com/sanshin_zen

p.s. he is also currently working on a book about Dogen's waka poetry

[Meian]

Early in the passage there is a quote from Roshi that struck me. "In zazen many things come up: thoughts, emotions, sometimes anger and hatred. But all you have to do is take care of zazen in eternal possibility. It's completely beyond good and bad, right or wrong, so put aside all kinds of imagination fabricated by your consciousness. Don't attach to thoughts and emotions, just let them return to emptiness. Just be present there and swim in buddha-nature" (xii-xiii)

This struck me because this is what I find liberating - and daunting - about Buddhism. It liberates me from constrictions of dogmatic thinking and specific dualities, yet that is a paradoxical responsibility because I can no longer use dogma or contrived boundaries as an excuse not to do something, or to do something. In a way, with liberation comes greater accountability to all sentient beings, and the vows we choose to take to help all who suffer (all sentient beings).

That's my take on it. Kind of like being in the mud also

Bowing doesn't bother me - I forget to, but to me it's a gesture of respect and gratitude, I've no issues with it. But being American - we are a bit weird about this stuff, yes

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

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[Jakuden]

Another thought about Melanie's question... there is certainly a difference between submitting to the will of other beings against one's will and under threat, versus sacrificing voluntarily. All women, Mormon or otherwise, have likely felt to some degree that their body and mind is subject to the will of others... I was certainly informed, and in so many words, that this was the case when I was a child. There has to be liberation from the feeling of being "owned" first before one can awaken to the true lack of separation from others. Life experiences have created that sense of separation for us by way of cultural attitudes.
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Shoka]

I'm pretty excited about this book. I have read a portion of it, but didn't finish it. One of the things that really strikes me in the introduction is the depth of the vow as it is described. There is a quote:

When we clearly see this reality; that we and other things exist together without fixed independent entities, our practice is strengthened. We understand that to live by vow is not to accept a particular fixed doctrine but is a natural expression of our life force.

I really enjoy the depth that Okumura brings to the vows, even in the short introduction.

Gassho,

Shoka
sattoday

[Entai]

I think the Bodhisattva attitude is essential to practice. Otherwise I don't really see the point. It would be like sitting quietly in zazen while someone across the room is sobbing in pain. Do I just hear it, let it go and continue sitting? I certainly hope I wouldn't. That's when my practice leaves the cushion and continues as benefiting others if possible.

The meal verse I often use is:

I receive this food with gratitude to all beings.
May it sustain my life so that I may serve others.

Of course we don't always know if our actions are beneficial. Sometimes not helping is more helpful. I also don't think it's a good idea to "always" put others first. It's just as important to take care of yourself, otherwise you may be unable to take care of others. For example, lying down in the mud so that someone can get across may be noble, but if nobody helps you back up, what do they do when they reach the next mud puddle?

My 2 cents (doesn't get you much these days, does it?)

Gassho,
Entai
#SatToday

[Jakuden]

Sometimes not helping is more helpful. I also don't think it's a good idea to "always" put others first. It's just as important to take care of yourself, otherwise you may be unable to take care of others. For example, lying down in the mud so that someone can get across may be noble, but if nobody helps you back up, what do they do when they reach the next mud puddle?

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Meian]

I had another thought about being in the mud, much earlier today. Things got busy.

Years ago, I had a spiritual director. I've always had very vivid, intense dreams, and I had shared some with her, one of which involved running barefoot through mud in a forest. She explained to me some of the symbolism and metaphor involved in dream imagery which had come to mind with this passage this week.

I thought of gestation, darkness, seed growth, and meditation. How we are unable to help others unless we go first go within, into the emptiness and darkness within ourselves (gestation, the void), and allow ourselves to grow and exist, before we can help others from that gestation period. Then we reach out and can be present as we are from the fertile soil of our lives.

Maybe i am seeing too much in it, but it's an understanding i gained years ago in direction, it lay dormant for many years. She's been on my mind a bit recently, and this passage brought her teaching about rich soil back. I'm grateful for that ♡ It's a perspective, not necessarily a Buddhist one.

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

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[JasonG]

A great start to this book. What jumped out for me was the following:

"We understand that to live by vow is not to accept a particular fixed doctrine but is a natural expression of our life force."

I tend to get stuck and resist when I hear about vows and the implications to following any tradition or ritual and commitment as a means to "being awake". I recall Jundo telling me once a while back that instead of commitment to practice, think of it more as being sincere about your practice.

I think "living by vow" is suggesting something similar. Looking forward to delving deeper!

Gassho
Jason

sat today

[pthwaites]

Reading this first section of the book, the main feeling I encountered was a familiar kind of tension. I feel this way any time I read about taking a certain approach to life (I also felt this way when attempting, and ultimately failing, to compete Jukai). It's a sense of being limited, constrained, taught that I need to approach life differently - less selfishly. I suppose I react this way to things that I perceive as a threat to my independence.

This is not a complaint about the book, just something that I will have to sit with as I read. As others have pointed out above - especially in the quote shared by Shoka - there’s an interesting play between my sense that these teachings are constraining, and their own goal of being liberating.

Peter

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[Hoseki]

Reading this first section of the book, the main feeling I encountered was a familiar kind of tension. I feel this way any time I read about taking a certain approach to life (I also felt this way when attempting, and ultimately failing, to compete Jukai). It's a sense of being limited, constrained, taught that I need to approach life differently - less selfishly. I suppose I react this way to things that I perceive as a threat to my independence.

This is not a complaint about the book, just something that I will have to sit with as I read. As others have pointed out above - especially in the quote shared by Shoka - there’s an interesting play between my sense that these teachings are constraining, and their own goal of being liberating.

Peter

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Hi Peter,

I'm not sure if this will help but perhaps you can think of the way of the Bodhisattva as neither selfish or altruistic but more like an exercise program. A program that you've decided (vowed) to undertake for your health something that's ultimately your decision and about a concern for your own well being. That feeling of strain you experience when you want to do something that conflicts with your vow are like the stresses and strains of exercise. Exercise can be uncomfortable at times but it is good for you.

Another way to look at is like compulsive behavior. I overeat when I'm anxious, and sadly I'm anxious often, as a result I have more body fat than I would like. So when I'm not feeling well I feel compelled to eat something. I want to eat and the act of eating is pleasurable. But I would also like to be slimmer (and presumably healthier.) So even though I want to eat I also want to not eat. If I set aside the urge to eat or simply sit with it I would be free from that compulsion.


Another way, is to look at the Bodhisattva path as the type of person you want to become. If you want to be like a Bodhisattva then you have to act like one. So you take steps to become one. In our suggested reading list there is a book called Faces of Compassion by Taigen Dan Leighton. This book provides some examples of Bodhisattva from the Sutra's well as real people who exemplified certain characteristics.

In each case we can skip the selfish/altruistic dichotomy because we are bringing care for the self and for others together. I help other because they need help but also because I want to.

These were the things I thought about when I read your post.

Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki

[Jakuden]

Hi Peter,

I'm not sure if this will help but perhaps you can think of the way of the Bodhisattva as neither selfish or altruistic but more like an exercise program. A program that you've decided (vowed) to undertake for your health something that's ultimately your decision and about a concern for your own well being. That feeling of strain you experience when you want to do something that conflicts with your vow are like the stresses and strains of exercise. Exercise can be uncomfortable at times but it is good for you.

Another way to look at is like compulsive behavior. I overeat when I'm anxious, and sadly I'm anxious often, as a result I have more body fat than I would like. So when I'm not feeling well I feel compelled to eat something. I want to eat and the act of eating is pleasurable. But I would also like to be slimmer (and presumably healthier.) So even though I want to eat I also want to not eat. If I set aside the urge to eat or simply sit with it I would be free from that compulsion.


Another way, is to look at the Bodhisattva path as the type of person you want to become. If you want to be like a Bodhisattva then you have to act like one. So you take steps to become one. In our suggested reading list there is a book called Faces of Compassion by Taigen Dan Leighton. This book provides some examples of Bodhisattva from the Sutra's well as real people who exemplified certain characteristics.

In each case we can skip the selfish/altruistic dichotomy because we are bringing care for the self and for others together. I help other because they need help but also because I want to.

These were the things I thought about when I read your post.

Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki

This is so right on. I often want to post and ask, "does the mental resistance ever go away!?" Probably not, any more than the resistance to exercise or turning down ice cream and pizza goes away Am I wrong?

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Kaishin]

I've written a few things, but I keep deleting them

For now I will just say that I am reading along. My wife will be reading along with me as well, and I'm grateful for that!

-satToday

[Hoko]

This section of the book and this thread brought up a lot of great talking points.
I'll try to be brief.

The idea of laying one's self out in the mud to benefit others touches the crossroad between selfless service and (literally) being a doormat.
We have to be VERY clear on the difference here because it's easy to conflate the two.
When we encounter suffering in our daily lives and we drop our clinging to how we prefer things to be does that mean that we are training to become masochists?
Is "radical acceptance" really just "learned helplessness" in disguise?
(For those who are unfamiliar with this term there was a study done where dogs were given electric shocks through a mat on the floor and when they were locked in a cage with nowhere to go and the mat was beneath them giving them shocks the dogs eventually just lay there and took it. Researchers coined the term "learned helplessness" to describe this phenomenon)

I think that this notion of the Bodhisattva vow is one that's very easy to misinterpret as are some other Buddhist concepts.
In describing Zen Buddhism to an old friend he commented that it sounded like "the religion of low expectations".
Maybe I just bungled the explanation but in his defense, I could see his point.
"Life is suffering so I'll just sit here and take it" is not the goal of Buddhist practice but sometimes it's not so obvious to the uninitiated.

To address Jundo's questions at the beginning of the thread there is a deep connection between the Bodhisattva vow, repentance and practice-enlightenment.
Zen practice is the ruthless attention to one's own internal BS. We vow to address it (transform all delusions though delusions inexhaustible) but it's a never ending process.
There is no "last word" in Zen (Case 55 of the Book of Equanimity). Reflection upon our incompleteness motivates us to re-commit.
This in turn mirrors what Uchiyama Roshi says about Vow and Repentance being two sides of a (non-sided) coin.
The coin flips and spins eternally.
It is also very much related to what Dogen says about practice itself being enlightenment.

So VOW ties it all together nicely because a vow is a statement of intention. Intention begets action. And Nishijima Roshi says Zen is a religion of action.

So we vow to save all sentient beings, though beings numberless (the Bodhisattva vow)
We vow to transform all delusions (through the never ending process of rigorous self study viz. zazen)
We vow to perceive reality though reality is boundless (not to "see" what we believe but to "see seeing" for what it is i.e Dongshan's "Just this is it")
We vow to attain the enlightened way, a way non attainable.

Even though we know that it is not something to be "had" or "acquired" this does not absolve us nor dissuade us from making the effort.
And it is in making this effort that we actualize the entire universe and the entire universe actualizes us.

Understanding our intention very, very clearly helps us perceive situations correctly and act accordingly.
This sounds complex but it's not.
If I am clear that my job as a parent is to love my children first and foremost then I am better able to handle things like discipline.
(I use this example because it's very close to my heart.)
If I VOW to love my kids and REPENT that I am not a perfect parent then I am more committed to watching my internal barometer during my interactions with my kids.
When they inevitably misbehave, instead of attaching to the idea that they should be this or that way I can accept the misbehavior for what it is, remember that I love them and be clear about why I am disciplining them. (These are my expectations, you failed to meet them, these are the consequences; I know you don't like it but such as it is...)
This is MUCH better than becoming outraged over the misbehavior or self-recrimination over my "lousy parenting skills".
You can take the same scenario and replace "my kids" with "my thoughts" and it still works.

So am I a Bodhisattva? Well, yes and no. When I am committed to my vows and cognizant of my imperfections then I am.
When I fail to exert devotion (viriya) and allow myself to be pulled about by my karma then I am not.

So far there is a lot to like about this book!

Gassho,
Hoko
#SatToday

[Kaishin]

In describing Zen Buddhism to an old friend he commented that it sounded like "the religion of low expectations".

You must have forgotten to mention the whole "save all sentient beings" part ☺

[Joyo]

My month-long training for my new job is done as of tomorrow. I will be very happy to join in with the book club then, as well as, being part of my Treeleaf home.

Gassho
Joyo
sat today

[Jishin]

IMG_0101.JPGIMG_0103.JPGIMG_0102.JPG

Books should taste good, have good pictures and burn well.

I am not sure we are using this book the way it was meant to be used.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Meitou]

I'm very excited to be reading this book; part of my journey here from Tibetan Buddhism was down to watching a rather lovely talk by Susan Moon about precepts and vows - I hadn't heard of her before and she piqued my already growing interest in Zen.
These are some of the highlights for me so far ...
'I feel that the essence of bodhisattva practice and the common ground of various styles of practice is living by vow' Am I a bodhisattva? I don't know, but I do know that I aspire to be, that it's my intention and I must try.
I felt a slight resistance to the idea of repentance and atonement, I could sense that idea of atoning for one's sins which didn't sit well, however this...
'Because our vow is endless, our practice is never complete. This awareness of incompleteness is repentance'
really clarified the issue for me, showing me a way to look at it in a different light. By coincidence ( are there any?) this quote also arrived in my inbox a couple of days ago..

'To repent is not to feel remorse, but to face one’s faults, realizing they are faults,
and try one’s best not to make the same mistake again.
If one does that, one is already making amends.'
Master Shen-Yeng 'How to be faultless'

I found this very interesting..
'Each bodhisattva makes specific vows unique to his or her personality and capabilities' He's talking here about the general vows and then particular vows. I have never heard of this before, I wonder could someone explain a bit more about this to me or direct me to further info?

I'm also intrigued about being led by karma - again I haven't come across this before and I'm not sure what to make of it., perhaps because I'm coming from the Tibetan tradition where so much emphasis is put on karma, purification and rebirth. I have to say that I've had misgivings many times about attitudes toward 'karma' and merit, almost as if we can carry a Karma Kard and get reward points, something that really annoys me - I once had some Buddhist friends offer to help me move furniture around in my flat; when I declined saying I was fine with it, they pointed out that they would like to help me because they would earn merit - ugh, thanks for that! So yes, I'm looking at the meaning around not being led by karma with curiosity. I love how this is opening up new ideas for me.
I have highlighted a lot of passages but won't go into them all here - but I did just want to post this quote from Dogen Zenji's very beautiful passage on continuous practice..

' The virtue of this continuous practice sustains ourselves and others. The essential point is that, in the entire earth and throughout heaven in the ten directions, all beings receive the merit of our continuous practice. Although neither others nor ourselves know it, that is the way it is' And there it is, that's why I practice

Gassho
Sat with you all today.

[Hoseki]

I found this very interesting..
'Each bodhisattva makes specific vows unique to his or her personality and capabilities' He's talking here about the general vows and then particular vows. I have never heard of this before, I wonder could someone explain a bit more about this to me or direct me to further info?

I'm also intrigued about being led by karma - again I haven't come across this before and I'm not sure what to make of it., perhaps because I'm coming from the Tibetan tradition where so much emphasis is put on karma, purification and rebirth. I have to say that I've had misgivings many times about attitudes toward 'karma' and merit, almost as if we can carry a Karma Kard and get reward points, something that really annoys me - I once had some Buddhist friends offer to help me move furniture around in my flat; when I declined saying I was fine with it, they pointed out that they would like to help me because they would earn merit - ugh, thanks for that! So yes, I'm looking at the meaning around not being led by karma with curiosity. I love how this is opening up new ideas for me.
I have highlighted a lot of passages but won't go into them all here - but I did just want to post this quote from Dogen Zenji's very beautiful passage on continuous practice..

' The virtue of this continuous practice sustains ourselves and others. The essential point is that, in the entire earth and throughout heaven in the ten directions, all beings receive the merit of our continuous practice. Although neither others nor ourselves know it, that is the way it is' And there it is, that's why I practice

Gassho
Sat with you all today.

Hi Frankie,

I can't speak for anyone else's reading but here are my thoughts on those points you mentioned. Our vows maybe unique to us because we are unique and so are our circumstances. For example, if I have a tendency towards cowardice (or actions rooted in fear) then I might be as Hoko mentioned a bit of a door mat (this is true of me incidentally.) So for me to walk the path I may have to be firmer with people in an attempt to care for myself and others. But if someone else was a little brash or bullish they may have to try and hold back a bit when dealing with others lest they hurt others needlessly as well as cause themselves grief and regret. In both case we are trying to look after the well being of ourselves and others but it takes different forms because of our different dispositions and attitudes (things that have been honed in us over time) which we might call Karmic seeds.

The vows maybe the same but actual practice will differ. We are the many hands of Avalokitêśvara responding to the different needs of those around us.


At least that's what came to mind when I read your post.


Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki

[Michael Joseph]

Hello everyone,

So much to say and yet not a word. Perhaps I'll just listen to y'all this week. Thank you for your insights.

Gassho,

Michael

Sat today

[Kotei]

Hello,

thank you for sharing your thoughts.
They made me pull out the book for a second read.
This time, enriched with your perspectives and with a different perspective inside myself, too.

Gassho,
Kotei sat and lah today.

[Kyonin]

Hello all!

This book was a gift from a wonderful friend so I'm reading it with a warm heart and an often silly smile.

Do you believe that the attitude of the Bodhisattva is vital to Zen Practice, and must be focused on helping others before (or together with) ourself? Do you feel like a Bodhisattva yourself according to the definitions given?

Yes, I think this attitude is vital for our practice. I often think and say to people who ask that Buddhism is never for the self, it's a way to make ourselves useful to life. If we act always thinking on the benefit of other sentient beings, life becomes a really nice place to live. Even by sitting zazen we are helping life because we are in silent and still, thus we minimize consumption and keep ourselves from impacting life in any way... at least for the time we sit.

Me? No, I don't feel like a Bodhisattva at all. I'm just that crazy guy who does stuff for others and smiles to people in the street.


The Introduction briefly introduces all the many Chants that Okumura will be looking at more closely later in the book, and seeks to make the point that "Vow" is at the center of all of them. Do you get that?

Yes, I think he makes it very clear that this practice is a vow. And I love that. I am very in tune with the fact that the more we practice compassion and generosity, we are creating ripples of compassion. Zen practice gives us a solid framework to live by our vow.


What do you think about his comment, "Such a reflection and realization of one's own incompleteness is repentance" ?
I think it's a statement that reminds us to see our practice with humility and perspective. It's very easy to fall into self delusion and feel superior when doing things for other beings. But if we think about it, the Bodhisattva work is never done, so we must just be quiet and keep on our service.


Toward the end of the Introduction, there is a long passage from Master Dogen's Shobogenzo-Gyoji about "continuous practice" (which is also known as "Practice-Enlightenment"). Is his meaning clear to you, and any impressions?
I have always liked Gyoji because allows me to understand that this practice never ends, that our acts always create consequences and that regardless of goals we must keep on.

Gassho,

Kyonin
SatToday/LAH

[Mp]

Do you believe that the attitude of the Bodhisattva is vital to Zen Practice, and must be focused on helping others before (or together with) ourself? Do you feel like a Bodhisattva yourself according to the definitions given?

Yes, I think this attitude is vital for our practice. I often think and say to people who ask that Buddhism is never for the self, it's a way to make ourselves useful to life. If we act always thinking on the benefit of other sentient beings, life becomes a really nice place to live. Even by sitting zazen we are helping life because we are in silent and still, thus we minimize consumption and keep ourselves from impacting life in any way... at least for the time we sit.

Well said and so true Kyonin. =)

Me? No, I don't feel like a Bodhisattva at all. I'm just that crazy guy who does stuff for others and smiles to people in the street.

You too eh ... *wehhh* I am not alone!

Gassho
Shingen

SatToday/LAH

[Kaishin]

Do you believe that the attitude of the Bodhisattva is vital to Zen Practice, and must be focused on helping others before (or together with) ourself?

No -- but hear me out. I do not think that attitude is at all required to start on this path or to begin this practice. I certainly did not have such an attitude when I began--I was in a painful mess and was looking only to help myself.

What's amazing is that--even without trying--the longer you follow this path, the more your thoughts, words, and deeds do start to resemble what are described as those of a bodhisattva.

So, no, I do not think it is required -- but you will find yourself becoming a bodhisattva (even if in small ways compared to others) whether you like it or not!!!!

This passage from the Editor's Preface sums this up nicely:

... awareness of emptiness leads naturally to a more peaceful, stable life in our modern world. Impermanence and interdependence are not merely philosophical abstractions. They are fundamental aspects of our daily existence. Ongoing recognition of this reality leads naturally to generosity, egolessness, and inner calm. The appreciation and application of this concept is a very practical antidote to the pervasive angst of our modern consumer society.

Okumura, Shohaku. Living by Vow: A Practical Introduction to Eight Essential Zen Chants and Texts (Kindle Locations 83-87). Wisdom Publications. Kindle Edition.

[Meitou]

Hi Frankie,

I can't speak for anyone else's reading but here are my thoughts on those points you mentioned. Our vows maybe unique to us because we are unique and so are our circumstances. For example, if I have a tendency towards cowardice (or actions rooted in fear) then I might be as Hoko mentioned a bit of a door mat (this is true of me incidentally.) So for me to walk the path I may have to be firmer with people in an attempt to care for myself and others. But if someone else was a little brash or bullish they may have to try and hold back a bit when dealing with others lest they hurt others needlessly as well as cause themselves grief and regret. In both case we are trying to look after the well being of ourselves and others but it takes different forms because of our different dispositions and attitudes (things that have been honed in us over time) which we might call Karmic seeds.

The vows maybe the same but actual practice will differ. We are the many hands of Avalokitêśvara responding to the different needs of those around us.


At least that's what came to mind when I read your post.


Gassho
Sattoday
Hoseki

Hi Hoseki, thanks so much for your comment. I think I may have misunderstood this then, because when I read it I thought it meant that as well as the general vow, the student also takes individual vows, which I assumed would have been agreed with his or her teacher/preceptor. As I'm new to Soto Zen, I had no idea whether this could be the case or not, but again, during the Susan Moon interview, she explains how she gets her students to write the Precepts in their own words so that they have more resonance to them personally - I thought it could be something like that.
I should also apologise because I've jumped the gun with this, the quote appears in Chapter 1. Sorry

Gassho
Sat with you all this morning

[AlanLa]

Do you believe that the attitude of the Bodhisattva is vital to Zen Practice, and must be focused on helping others before (or together with) ourself? Do you feel like a Bodhisattva yourself according to the definitions given?

The Bodhisattva vow is certainly central to my practice. While my professional life (which very much blends into my personal life) is certainly dedicated to helping others, thus being consistent with the vow, but that doesn't mean I feel like I am a bodhisattva. My personal life, on the other hand, is mostly dedicated to taking care of myself so that I can live up to the non-task of helping others. I very much live by my Buddhist vows at the same time I am very much pulled by karma, so for me the Bodhisattva vow is aspirational. I just don't see being a Bodhisattva as an outcome; rather, it's a process.

What do you think about his comment, "Such a reflection and realization of one's own incompleteness is repentance" ?

When I first read that line I thought the word was incompetence, and I was, like, yeah, that's me! I screw up on things all the time. If it weren't for the sangha I work with that support this very fallible self, I don't know where I would be,,, besides maybe unemployed. And that doesn't even begin to cover my efforts at living up to the precepts. But all along, what sustains me on the Bodhisattva Path is reflection and realization as a form of repentance. The good news is all that reflection and repentance is helping me to get better. When I look back to how I was and lived my life when I joined TreeLeaf to now, I see clear and meaningful progress on the Path. Thankfully (and I am finding myself thankful a lot these days), I still have far to go.

Toward the end of the Introduction, there is a long passage from Master Dogen's Shobogenzo-Gyoji about "continuous practice" (which is also known as "Practice-Enlightenment"). Is his meaning clear to you, and any impressions?

Life is practice, but that doesn't mean it's overt practice. When I am in the midst and moment of difficult or challenging situations, as has happened happened recently, I never say anything like, "What would Buddha do here?" or other such silliness. But my practice has made me less reactive, so I handle those situations in a much calmer and effective manner because practice has shown me that those situations are empty. I still screw up and make mistakes (see above), but my mistakes are now fewer and smaller than before. Then, once out of the situation, I resort back to reflection and repentance on my incompleteness, such as was done today by sitting.

BTW, if I'm posting, I've been sitting...

[Risho]

Alan,

hahaha I like what you said about incompetence; you are not alone. lol

Seriously, I want to talk about the Bodhisattva, and how I integrate it into my life. I really do feel like it is central to my practice and my life, which are not two; I also think vow is very, very important. I like reciting the Bodhisattva vows and verse of atonement both as a practice of setting my mindset to remind me where my focus for the day should be. Zazen is similar; it sets the tone of the day.

One of the key things I try to do with practice is integrate it into my life. Things can seem esoteric at first, but when they are practiced routinely they just become the norm. In addition, I find it useful to making it "my" practice, if that makes sense.

This takes me back to what I wanted to talk about, i.e. the Bodhisattva path. First off, I'm a software engineer, and I work for a large corporation. In zen and Buddhist books, I don't find a lot of Bodhisattva examples for people in my profession, i.e. Capitalist pigs.

When I read about Right Livelihood it can seem that what I do is not the recommended livelihood for a stereotypical Buddhist, but by making my practice my own and integrating the Bodhisattva ideal into my life, I've shattered that stereotype for myself, and this has really helped to fuel my practice. I mean I'm not saying I do anything unethical; I'm just stating that sometimes I feel that certain professions have Right Livelihood locked down, so it may not seem that a lay practitioner in a corporation can actually live up to this. In the end, this was just my ego, which is part of the path!

The corporate world, like I guess any job, can have its ups and downs. Sometimes it can be very alienating, but the Bodhisattva path has sort of helped transform my view of my job. Competition is fierce and knowledge is power, but how I practice at work sort of "works" in spite of those qualities. Instead of letting my ego drive my decisions, or fear of competition cause me to hold onto knowledge to have an edge, which is really stressful, I do the opposite.

I try to take care of my people, which are essentially everyone I work with. I try to treat people kindly (not patronizing), I share knowledge and listen and pay attention. I try to teach something knew when I can. I try to share what I've learned over the years to make my team better. I try to give my job my all. I know these sound like common sense things, but I really feel that a lot of this came out of my practice.

Over the past couple of years I've started taking more of a leadership role on my team; I was a little nervous at first, but what helped allay my concerns was when I stopped worrying about me, and instead I decided to focus on service to my co-workers. How could I help my team become better? What could I do to help reduce stress?

Of course, this takes practice, and bad habits spring up, but this vow keeps me rooted.

And that's just work practice. This extends to other areas of my life, but I apply this to my personal life. Since I work a lot, this is one area where I can really be of service as a Bodhisattva.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Joyo]

I have a question in regards to the author's description of living by vow vs living by karma. Don't we all do both? Christians often have dualistic views that they are morally superior and the rest of us are "the world" meaning sinners on our way to hell. How is this any different?

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

[Jundo]

I have a question in regards to the author's description of living by vow vs living by karma. Don't we all do both? Christians often have dualistic views that they are morally superior and the rest of us are "the world" meaning sinners on our way to hell. How is this any different?

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today/lah

Hi Joyo,

I had to let that sink in also. I suppose the meaning, perhaps, is something like "living driven by past history and circumstances, much of it often leading us in bad directions of excess desire, anger and divisive thinking" vs. "living by the vow to change that as we can, live better, help others." Maybe this Practice helps us be free of many of the mental traps, wallowing, self-victimhood, selfishness, dissatisfactions and all the rest that go with the first way of life.

I think that Buddhism posits that we are all victims of greed, anger and divisive ignorance, and we all need to work on that. Further, I don't think one even needs to be a "Buddhist" to do this, and one can be a good and caring believer in any religion or no religion at all, such as an atheist who is a humanitarian "secular humanist" I don't think that all the good people are "Buddhists", or that there are "Buddhists and everyone else." There are only sentient beings.

Something like that maybe.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Joyo]

Thank you, Jundo. What you said makes sense to me.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Meitou]

Seriously, I want to talk about the Bodhisattva, and how I integrate it into my life. I really do feel like it is central to my practice and my life, which are not two; I also think vow is very, very important. I like reciting the Bodhisattva vows and verse of atonement both as a practice of setting my mindset to remind me where my focus for the day should be. Zazen is similar; it sets the tone of the day.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

I know we are moving forward but I just wanted to come back and say how much I love this Risho, it's what I also aspire to.
Gassho

Sat with you all today and LAH

[Tairin]

I got off to a slow start with this book so I have just finished the Introduction now.

The bodhisattva Way is not linear. It’s not a path that we move along from a starting point to a finish

This quote really struck me. So much of life is achievement oriented it remains hard not to put some achievement or goals on this practise. Goalless goals. This is a way of life not a set of boxes to check. I know it and yet the reminder is so helpful. I won't quote it here but the Dogen writing Gyoji really brought home the continual practise. Not an end but a continuum.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today & LAH