Impossible full lotus

[Screature]

I have recently decided, for many reasons, that there very much a place for Zazen in my life. If I've done my research correctly, I believe I am interested purely in Soto Zen, just sitting, nothing more, or less.
Tonight I was going to try my first Zazen session. I had some hard pillows ready (I don't have a proper cushion or mat), I had 20 minutes to myself while tea is in the oven! I thought the oven timer may make a good Zazen timer :-) I tried putting myself in the full lotus position, which I've done many times before as a supple younger guy, because I could and it was comfortable! Now, in my 30s, it was impossible! I managed to position my right foot on my left thigh, but that's it. My left leg just won't come up! I know there are other perfectly good and acceptable positions, but I'm not comfortable using them because I have my sights set on full lotus and I don't think I'd be satisfied until I'm successful!
Is that a silly thing to think? I'm put off Zazen until I've worked on my hips and flexibility and full lotus is achieved. In my mind I want to do it that way, and nothing else will suffice! Did any of you begin with the same silly thoughts?

[Kokuu]

Hi Screature (do you have a human name too and maybe a picture for your avatar?)

I have a chronic illness and often can't even sit upright let alone in full lotus. Our minds are very good at placing unnecessary conditions on us and this is one of them for you. As you say, there are other perfectly good and acceptable positions and, in my experience, full lotus gives no extra benefit other than the thought we are doing it 'right'.

If you want to recover your former flexibility then do, but it would be a shame to let it get in the way of your sitting.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Rich]

Stop being silly and sit any comfortable way you can. There is plenty of info on this site about correct posture. If they had decent furniture back in the day, we would probably be sitting in chairs 🤗🙏

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[Shugen]

It's always better to sit, no matter what position, than not to sit. Work on full lotus if you wish but don't make it a requirement for zazen.

Gassho,

Shugen

Sattoday (on a seiza bench)


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[Taiyo]

This Practice is not about not being satisfied until we're successful. It's not about achieving anything either. It's precisely when we drop ideas of achievements and success when we get them. Are you sure you'll feel completely satisfied after you get to sit full lotus anyway? You'd probably be looking for the next goal, like holding that position longer.

Like Kokuu said, many of the folks here can't even sit upright, that doesn't make their zazen less valid or correct.

The way I see it, full lotus is fine to be stable, but any other stable position will do too. Personally, my European thighs don't let me sit full lotus either, but here we are!!

Of course it's ok to work on your flexibility, but don't quit sitting because of that

Gassho,
Taiyo

SatToday

[Caisson]

Hello Screature. I used to think the same way. Can't be "real" zazen without full lotus. I've been sitting regularly for about 3 years now. Haven't made it to full lotus but it took almost all this time getting to half lotus. I sit burmese sytle for the most part if my legs get too amped up. Still, like was mentioned earlier, it really is just a mind thing. Check out Jundo's beginner videos. I believe they will help you out considerably.

Gassho
Caisson

satoday

[Meian]

Hello,

When i started here, I attempted to sit "properly" and failed miserably at it. I was more concerned with the perfect mechanics than the sitting, but I was also learning about my own limitations having been diagnosed with a chronic condition that does not allow me to sit in a traditional manner. Then I learned that others had similar issues, and even the Buddha had a "reclining" pose when he felt ill. Now I am grateful every day when I can sit, recline, lean, etc for ten minutes or more. It's not long but I do what I can, when I can in small batches. To me it is a gift and a blessing - the how and mechanics, I no longer worry about, I do what my body allows me to do. Often shikantaza is how I do it, because that is my life.

Mind over body - there is a quote on Insight that I love, I think of it often, "Let the myriad things rest." It reminds me to slow my mind and sit

Gassho
Kim
Sat today

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[Kaishin]

Yes, I began with the same silly thoughts, too.

Now, I mostly sit in seiza position. I stopped sitting regularly for awhile, as I couldn't even sit half lotus without pain, and felt lacking.

More silliness.

You'll get over it 😏

-satToday

[Jakuden]

I think I also remember being able to do full lotus once upon a time. I'm ok with letting that be a faint memory. Seiza for me, Burmese if it's not going to be too long a sit. Good enough!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Jishin]

IMG_0075.JPG

Just sit where you don't fall asleep, are not in pain and well balanced.

Lotus position is not made for westerners. Let go of the lotus fetish.

IMG_0076.JPG

IMG_0077.JPG

Don't wish for a chair when on the floor or the floor when on a chair. Just chop wood and fetch water.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

Hello there,

Lots of wonderful and supportive advice here ... not much add, but do agree with Shugen, find what works for you and your body. It is more important to sit then not, so be gentle with yourself and find your own groove ... be patient, your groove will come in time. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Meian]

Always enjoy your cartoons, Jishin

Gassho
Kim
S/t

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[Shokai]

and when one reaches the full-lotus position; don't let it be with a 'na na nana na na, my zazen's better than your zazen' type attitude or it would all be for naught

gassho,

sat today (in my heart position)

[Jundo]

Hi Man,

Welcome again.

Please do check out our "We're All Always Beginners" videos ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forum...OLKS-%28NEW%29

... including the two or three on sitting posture ... including many alternate postures ...

Zazen for Beginners (3) - Basic Postures and The Mechanics of Sitting
Zazen for Beginners (8) - Alternative Postures of Zazen
Zazen for Beginners (17) - Sitting With Pain & Illness

Also check out the photos in the Guide to Basic Sitting (PDF) that I sent you in my welcome email:
https://sites.google.com/site/jundot...edirects=0&d=1

One size does not fit all, the Lotus Posture is not the only way to go. I sometimes sit that way, as here under the Bodhi Tree in India last year, but that was more out of respect for tradition. With my middle-aged Westerners thunder thighs and old football injury knees, I don't recommend it and my Lotus is not so beautiful. I don't recommend sitting so for most people.




Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

PS - By the way, don't get me started on how the Japanese tend to fetishize Lotus as "THE POSTURE" much more than even most Asian continental Buddhists. The Lotus Posture is a wonderful, balanced posture for those who can, and extremely stable which facilitates stability in body and mind. However, other postures can as well. Folks from Thailand to China to Tibet are not as rigid in their sitting postures. Now, outside of Japan (and even there a little) alternatives such as Seiza benches and chairs have become acceptable.

I am not a "one size fits all" fellow when it comes to "proper" Zazen posture. There are many balanced and comfortable positions and, if someone has health issues, they have to find the one (or several) that suits them. You may want to check out this wonderful book. The author says that you will know by listening to your own body and, further, even during a single sitting the "right" posture may change as the body changes.

Book Recommendation: - THE POSTURE OF MEDITATION
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ll=1#post31651

[Jundo]

PPS - You may also want to look at this recent thread ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post197110

[Byrne]

When I started I sat Burmese style because it was the easiest. Then after a few months I sat half lotus. Now I do full lotus. 22 years ago I fractured my spine in three places and I've been soberly reminded of it every day in my right shoulder blade. Changes in climate really remind me. If I want to sit for longer than 15 minutes I need to prep my body with some yoga exercises. Otherwise it will get rough. I've also sat zazen in a chair. That was nice too.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Screature]

Hi!
From reading your responses, I've realised in hindsight my question could be considered insensitive. I complained that I can't, without consideration for those who *can't*. Apologies for that, and thank you for seeing past it to answer!
I should really have absorbed as much beginners information as possible before beginning! I'll do that now.
To answer an earlier post, my "human name" is Mike, chosen because my alien name is difficult to pronounce ;-)
Lovely to meet you all! "Gassho" is the palms together greeting isn't it? Would it be more polite of me to include this in my posts? Autocorrect changes it to "grasshopper"!

Gassho,
Mike

[Kotei]

Hey Mike,
good to have you here.

I took your question just as the natural result of someone, full of curiosity and expectations,
starting a new thing, wanting to do everything in the 'right' way.
(At least that would've been my reason to ask this :-) )
For myself, the 'right' way, more and more, seems to be that there is no 'right way', no 100%.
I have to accept, that I cannot do all I want or think I have to. That seems to be my cure :-).
Actually, I am starting to feel quite comfortable with that.

Regarding 'Gassho', I'd like to echo Kyonin from another thread:

And about gassho, it's pretty much like namasté in yoga. It's a greeting, a reverence, a salute, a symbol of union, peace and wish that all boundaries are lost. To me (can't talk for anyone else) is a sacred mudra (hand posture) that reminds me that we are one.

Gassho,
Kotei sattoday.

[Anka]

Hi Mike,

Glad you found your way over here from ZFI. As you can see there is a very tight knit and caring community.

Don't worry about jumping straight in, we were all as excited about this practice as you are when we first found it. Just remember this practice is a marathon, not a sprint. Get some zazen sessions completed and you will find a new perspective on this question and some others I am sure you have.

-James F

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[Entai]

Mike (there's a really good band named Screature, btw \m/ )

Lots of great advice. I agree to sit in a posture that is comfortable or at least not painful. I sit in seiza, since any other position cuts off circulation to my legs. If you really want to sit in full lotus, maybe you can do stretching and practicing it in a time other than your zazen time. Maybe you'll get back into the flexibility (I could never do it). In the meantime, I'd suggest that you sit in a different posture.

Gassho,
Entai
#SatToday

[Tom]

No, no, no , we're not doing asana practice. There's enough pain in our minds without fighting it in our joints. Plenty of tutorials on the web on alternatives to full lotus, like a seiza bench. I can do full lotus, but chronically sprained ankles make it agony to hold for 30 mins, so I just use half-lotus, or burmese or seiza.
Gassho,
Tom
Sat today.

[BillH]

Hi Screature,

I sit with my legs crisscrossed on my couch. Sadie, our family dog, often jumps up on the couch to sit with me. I usually end up resting my right hand on her shoulder and we meditate together. This works for us and I'm confident that any way you do it will work as well.

Gassho,
Bill
Sattoday

[Risho]

Oh man good timing for this post! I used to sit half lotus quite regularly and would sit full lotus once in a while; my left hip did not like it much and started hurting, so now I'm in a chair. I actually kind of like sitting in a chair - I guess it's novel; I've been sitting on my zafu for years, and I'm seeing different nuances with the chair now. I'll go back to the zafu eventually, but I really am liking the chair because I can sit anywhere now. I could be at work and just sit zazen somewhere. I know this is obvious, but I get so wrapped up in the right way to practice sometime (right in my mind) that I forget hey I can just practice.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Jishin]

That's awesome Risho. Screw form. Go with emptiness!



Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Meian]

Speaking of sitting anywhere - I sat shikantaza last night at a "K-pop" concert with my daughter (she got tickets as a gift). In the middle of thousands of screaming teenagers (and accompanying parents), I sat (and stood, as appropriate) shikantaza and no one was the wiser.

(K-pop is Korean pop music, my younger daughter's favorite.)

Zen travels anywhere

Gassho
Kim
S/t

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