Zazen and earworms

**Ryumon** · 02-19-2017, 08:48 AM

I like music. I listen to music a lot, and I play music as well (at least I try).

Every now and then, I hear a tune that becomes an earworm; that's when you have a melody that your mind keeps playing over and over, that you can't escape. You may experience this when you hear a song on TV just before you go to work; or when you've been listening to the same song a lot. I find that I get earworms often when I'm trying to play new songs on my guitar. (Robert Johnson, lately.)

When I sit zazen, those earworms are present. They arise and fade away. They are probably more pervasive than thoughts, because they repeat themselves. This is probably the hardest thing I've found to deal with in zazen, because they seem to have a life of their own: unlike thoughts, which are generally narratives about things we do, want to do, or have done, earworms seem to have a life of their own. They go nowhere, they just play.

Anyone else get earworms? How do you deal with them when sitting?

Gassho,

Kirk

**Seishin** · 02-19-2017, 10:52 AM

Kirk

Strange I know what you mean, especially when learning to play a new song, listening to the original over and over. I did a cover collaboration with a friend in Russia of an Irish punk rock track. Playing the guitar part was OK but the lyrics were hard to nail and for weeks it was reverberating in my head. It was so hard to escape when sitting and I really had to concentrate hard to get back to my breaths and let go.

I've learnt a few songs since sitting regularly but so far this was the only one causing problems when sitting but hey not surprising at its a pumping tempo full of energy. Oh yeah brings a big grin playing or so singing.

I'll see if this repeats in future projects but I mashed up my left index finger tip early December so my playing has been pants but at least zazen has been improving.

**Jundo** · 02-19-2017, 12:16 PM

Let the tune go, do not grab on.

If that fails to work, follow the rhythm of the breath.

If that does not work, tap your foot in the Lotus and sing along.

But in whichever case, can one hear the Holy Tune that springs from the Emptiness Record Co., with all silence and noise in between and right through each note?

Kirk, you image of Shikantaza seems misplaced. You hear earworms, but fail to hear with Kannon's 1000 ears. Are you still hoping for quiet, or for Silence that is all noise and quiet?

Gassho, J

SatToday

**Ryumon** · 02-19-2017, 12:29 PM

No, not hoping for quiet at all. Just noting recently that musical thoughts seem to come from a different place than discursive thoughts.

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

**Kyonin** · 02-19-2017, 01:14 PM

Hi Kirk!

Many times I have sat with Van Hallen, Herbie Hancock and Daft Punk. I simply let it play and enjoy. Eventually it also fades away

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

**Tairin** · 02-19-2017, 02:23 PM

Hi Kirk

I think I understand what you mean. Ear worms (a term I don't particularly care for) seem to have the ability to lodge themselves in my mind more so than thoughts. I am also a musician and I don't know if that is related or not. While I may be able to sit and let thoughts rise and fall, a song does not seem to fade the same way. When I started practicing Zazen I asked the teacher at my local Zen centre and she said something similar to what Jundo and Kyonin said. These days I just treat it as my life's soundtrack but try to not follow the piece. Just let it be.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

**Ryumon** · 02-19-2017, 02:40 PM

The term is used in psychology. And earworms are actually something that has been studied quite a lot. Here's a link to Google Scholar with lots of articles:

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar...CPDEEQgQMIGDAA

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

I know nothing.

**Tairin** · 02-19-2017, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by kirkmc

The term is used in psychology. And earworms are actually something that has been studied quite a lot. Here's a link to Google Scholar with lots of articles:

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar...CPDEEQgQMIGDAA

Oh I am quite familiar with the term. I just don't care for it.

Gassho
Warren
Sat today

**Ryumon** · 02-19-2017, 03:07 PM

Fair enough. I find it quite an appropriate image. ;-)

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

**Jakuden** · 02-19-2017, 03:24 PM

Wow how funny I never realized how much this was studied. I do have ear worms occasionally when sitting, note them, note my irritation with them , rinse and repeat. Then I let go of the judgement that it was a silly way to spend a Zazen period.

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

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**Jishin** · 02-19-2017, 05:14 PM

It's just exacerbation of OCD. Shikantaza is not a cure for OCD but may help as a pleasant side effect.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Ryumon** · 02-19-2017, 05:35 PM

Earworms have nothing to do with OCD.

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

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**Jishin** · 02-19-2017, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by kirkmc

Earworms have nothing to do with OCD.

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

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Obsessive-compulsive disorder:

Patients with OCD (lifetime prevalence >1%) typically suffer from obsessions and compulsions. Earworms are considered intrusions: unwelcome involuntary thoughts, they are a subtype of obsessions. People experiencing earworms as terribly annoying and stressful are more likely to express typical OCD symptoms (such as mysophobia — a fear of germs, dirt, and contamination).

http://bjgp.org/content/66/643/90

https://askthepsych.com/atp/2008/04/08/earworms/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4304165/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earworm

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Ryumon** · 02-19-2017, 06:00 PM

From Wikipedia:

According to research by James Kellaris, 98% of individuals experience earworms.

So 98% of people have OCD...

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

**Jishin** · 02-19-2017, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by kirkmc

From Wikipedia:

According to research by James Kellaris, 98% of individuals experience earworms.

So 98% of people have OCD...

Gassho,

Kirk

Sat

Read the entire deal from Wikipedia:

With mental illness:

In a 2006 book by Daniel Levitin entitled This Is Your Brain on Music: The Science of a Human Obsession, he states that research has shown musicians and people with obsessive–compulsive disorder (OCD) are more likely to suffer from earworm attacks. An attack usually involves a small portion of a song, a hook, equal to or less than the capacity of one's auditory short-term memory. Levitin reports that capacity as usually 15 to 30 seconds. Simple tunes are more likely to get stuck than complex pieces of music. He also suggests that in some situations, OCD medications might minimize the effects.

IMG_0727.JPG IMG_0728.JPG

If my voice is going over and over in your head, kind of like an earworm, then welcome to the club!

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Hoseki** · 02-19-2017, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Jishin

Obsessive-compulsive disorder:

Patients with OCD (lifetime prevalence >1%) typically suffer from obsessions and compulsions. Earworms are considered intrusions: unwelcome involuntary thoughts, they are a subtype of obsessions. People experiencing earworms as terribly annoying and stressful are more likely to express typical OCD symptoms (such as mysophobia — a fear of germs, dirt, and contamination).

http://bjgp.org/content/66/643/90

https://askthepsych.com/atp/2008/04/08/earworms/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4304165/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earworm

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Hi Jishin,

Am I right in thinking that some intrusions are normal?

Sattoday
Sattoday
Hoseki

**Rich** · 02-19-2017, 08:27 PM

Favorite earworms by new republic, Coldplay, the fray. Enjoy!

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**Jakuden** · 02-19-2017, 08:45 PM

Huh, OCD the only thing I thought I didn't have!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

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**Jakuden** · 02-19-2017, 08:49 PM

I dare anyone to listen to this all the way through and not get an earworm!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

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**Jishin** · 02-19-2017, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Hoseki

Hi Jishin,

Am I right in thinking that some intrusions are normal?

Sattoday
Sattoday
Hoseki

Yes. Intrusions are normal. Except when they are not. They are not normal when they are bothersome to you or others.

It's not a problem unless it's a problem.

My 2 cents.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Jishin** · 02-19-2017, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by Jakuden

Huh, OCD the only thing I thought I didn't have!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

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You have a serious case. So severe you become a doctor because of it. It's all good as long as it is not bothersome to self or others. I would guess that you have other obsessions though...

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Rich** · 02-19-2017, 11:51 PM

I thought zen was my ocd 🤗

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**Jishin** · 02-20-2017, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by Rich

I thought zen was my ocd

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You are very very ill Rich.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Jakuden** · 02-20-2017, 12:21 AM

Originally Posted by Jishin

You have a serious case. So severe you become a doctor because of it. It's all good as long as it is not bothersome to self or others. I would guess that you have other obsessions though...

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Actually, I have ADHD, so if anything, I have had trouble with keeping any routine and following through with anything I want to do. I chase shiny things and forget my intentions as fast as Dory in "Finding Nemo." (Deep bows to Jundo and Treeleaf Sangha for all your help with developing (relatively) consistent practice. ) Wouldn't be surprised if OCD was hiding in there somewhere, if it is, maybe I can "train it" to compulsively do good for others.

Just keep swimming! I mean sitting.

Sorry for hijacking the thread!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

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**Jishin** · 02-20-2017, 12:33 AM

OCD and ADHD often times are comorbid. OCD symptoms can lead to inattentiveness, not being present. ADHD can cause obsessions and compulsive behavior to cope with ADHD.

There. Found it for you.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Jakuden** · 02-20-2017, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by Jishin

OCD and ADHD often times are comorbid. OCD symptoms can lead to inattentiveness, not being present. ADHD can cause obsessions and compulsive behavior to cope with ADHD.

There. Found it for you.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Yes! The second thing you said! Lol. I can offer Veterinary advice in payment for psychoanalysis

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

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**Jundo** · 02-20-2017, 01:48 AM

Gassho, J

SatToday

**Jundo** · 02-20-2017, 03:54 AM

Zazen is not the presence of thinking. Zazen is not the absence of thinking. Zazen is to think not thinking. How do you think not-thinking? Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential art of zazen.

Zazen is not the presence of earworms. Zazen is not the absence of earworms. Zazen is to earworm not earworm. How do you earworm not-earworm? Non-earworm. This in itself is the essential art of zazen.

From the Xin Xin Mingworm ...

The Great Earworm is not difficult for those who do not pick and choose.

When preferences are cast aside the Earworm stands clear and undisguised.

If you cut off all likes or dislikes about earworms, the Earworm is clear like space.

But even slight distinctions made set ear and worm far apart.

If you would clearly hear the Earworm, discard opinions pro and con about earworms.

Neither run toward earworms, nor crawl away from earworms.

To founder in dislike and like of earworms is nothing but the ear's disease.

And not to see the Earworm's deep truth disturbs the ear's essential peace.

The Earworm is perfect like vast space, where there's no lack and no excess.

Our choice to choose and to reject earworms prevents our hearing this simple truth.

Both striving for silence as well as to hum the tune condemns us to entangled hearing.

Just calmly see that all earworms are One, that the Earworm neither comes or goes

and by themselves earworms will go.

Attempts to stop earworm activity will fill you with earworm activity.

Remaining in duality, you'll never know of Earworm unity.

And not to know this unity lets wormy conflict lead you far off key.

That is the only way to be truly rid of the earworm.

Gassho, J

SatToday

**Seishin** · 02-20-2017, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Jakuden

I dare anyone to listen to this all the way through and not get an earworm!

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday

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I've just started learning to play Stairway To Heaven and this thread started me non-thinking that this could soon become a non-earworm. Jakuden has now ensured this won't happen, as my head is now full of "a wimmer way" wash rinse repeat 10000 times then 10000 again. And that's without even listening to that record. As Kylie Minogue sung "I just can't get you outta my head". Will need to sit again today if this carries on or crank up some AC/DC. ��

**Katherine** · 02-20-2017, 12:54 PM

My crazy brain gives me all kinds of ear worms. But it is all grist for the mill.

Gassho!
Katherine
Sat Today

**Kaisho** · 02-20-2017, 02:04 PM

Geez I can't tell you how often I have music in my brain. I often drive my coworkers crazy with it. Luckily lately I have been listening to jpop/jrock and I have no idea how to speak the language. It may save me from my coworkers.

Gassho
Sat2day

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**Jundo** · 02-21-2017, 10:09 AM

I would recommend simply to hear the earworm, and all other seeming distractions of life, with mirrormind. Hearingless hearing.

More here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...nners-%2810%29

Gassho, J

SatToday

**Hoko** · 02-22-2017, 07:01 PM

Hello,

For what it's worth I contend with this earworm issue also. I think we all do at some point or another.
I mean if 98% of the population has it then is it really pathology?
(Frankly I'm more surprised at the 2% of the population that doesn't report getting songs stuck in their head!)

Anyway, one meditation session long ago I noticed my stomach making a lot of noises. I got annoyed.
Here I was hoping for peace and serenity and there's a damn pod of whales singing in the background. How dare they?

Then I realized the only problem with the stomach noises was my problem with the stomach noises!
After all, stomachs make noises! Duh.

Extrapolating this insight further, I realized that stomachs make noises and brains make thoughts.
You can apply this to everything that annoys you during zazen.
Irritating thoughts, irritating bowel sounds, the kids wrestling and screaming downstairs, that rattling refrigerator and yes, that song you can't stop hearing over and over.

To put it succinctly, the moment you find your zazen "isn't right" (by your definition) is the moment you just made your zazen "wrong".
I refer you to Jundo's excellent advice above.

The only other thing I could offer is something I read once online (I can't remember where).
Some random person (bless them) suggested trying to listen to the ambient noises instead of the earworm.
When I do this it creates an awareness of the "sounds" of the music in my head space and the "sounds" of the surrounding area.
Now there's a puzzle! Which is the "real" sound?
The temporal lobe of your brain interprets the vibrations in the air as "sound" but it also registers the earworm as "sound".
Like Dongshan said: is the sound going to the ear or does the ear go to the sound?

Anyway, I'm not saying you should do this; I am not a Zen teacher!
This is purely my anecdotal experience that I am reporting.
But I find that if I am just way too scattered and I'm hanging on to the merry go round with 2 fingers and shikantaza is a total disaster that I can return to the breath and start over from there.
Similarly, if I'm plagued with an earworm and I have tried all of the techniques suggested above and I can't stop "poking at it" then I can look it squarely in the "face" and direct my awareness at it.
"Ok, Sound. Let's be aware of SOUND and see where that takes me."
Then I find it's a little easier to fold the earworm into "everything at once and nothing in particular".

If this helps anyone then great.
If I'm way out of bounds then don't listen to me, I am a noodle brain and I apologize profusely.

Gassho,
Hoko
#SatToday (no earworms to report)

**Jishin** · 02-23-2017, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Hoko

I mean if 98% of the population has it then is it really pathology?
(Frankly I'm more surprised at the 2% of the population that doesn't report getting songs stuck in their head!)

98% of the population has tooth decay and toothaches. Is it really pathology?

Only if the person or loved ones say it is.

Read the articles.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

**Hoko** · 02-23-2017, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by Jishin

98% of the population has tooth decay and toothaches. Is it really pathology?

Only if the person or loved ones say it is.

Read the articles.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

There's a 98% chance I was being rhetorical with a 2% margin of sarcasm that may or may not be statistically significant but I try only to be a wise ass for the benefit or others. _/\_

Also, while untreated earworms aren't capable of killing you, believe it or not tooth decay actually is! Read the article.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/0...ads-death.html

Even though the headline sounds like news from 1817 it's actually dated Feb 1st 2017. So if it's been more than 6 months since you've seen your dentist, give 'em a call.

In any case, while the epidemiology of earworms, tooth decay and arrow wounds are incredibly fascinating (looking at you, Malunkyaputta...) hopefully our dear Sangha will be able to EXTRACT a solution to the earworm problem. (High five for simultaneously making a dental/Buddhist reference?)

Gassho,
Hōkō
#SatToday

**Jishin** · 02-23-2017, 02:28 PM

Gassho, Jishin, ST

**Jakuden** · 02-23-2017, 04:03 PM

This is what my daughter immediately thought of when I mentioned earworms... She is well-trained in Star Trek lore :-D

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

**Shoki** · 02-24-2017, 01:19 AM

Kirk,
I don't usually get earworms during zazen but the other morning I got up at my usual 6:00 am to do my sitting. After I got up the first thing that popped into my head was Robert Johnson singing "Come On in My Kitchen." Then a few hours later I logged on to Tree Leaf and read your post. That's pretty weird.

Sat Today
Gassho
James

Originally Posted by kirkmc

I like music. I listen to music a lot, and I play music as well (at least I try).

Every now and then, I hear a tune that becomes an earworm; that's when you have a melody that your mind keeps playing over and over, that you can't escape. You may experience this when you hear a song on TV just before you go to work; or when you've been listening to the same song a lot. I find that I get earworms often when I'm trying to play new songs on my guitar. (Robert Johnson, lately.)

When I sit zazen, those earworms are present. They arise and fade away. They are probably more pervasive than thoughts, because they repeat themselves. This is probably the hardest thing I've found to deal with in zazen, because they seem to have a life of their own: unlike thoughts, which are generally narratives about things we do, want to do, or have done, earworms seem to have a life of their own. They go nowhere, they just play.

Anyone else get earworms? How do you deal with them when sitting?

Gassho,

Kirk

**Ryumon** · 02-24-2017, 11:59 AM

Ha! Certainly a great song to get stuck. In your head.

Gassho,

Kirk

I know nothing.

**Nengyo** · 03-02-2017, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by Jishin

98% of the population has tooth decay and toothaches. Is it really pathology?

Only if the person or loved ones say it is.

Read the articles.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

My favorite part of our pych modules was watching people squirm around and shyly ask if XYZ was normal, only to be answered with almost your exact answer every time.

On that note I like my earworms. I've been humming a duran duran song for days after hearing it on the radio for the first time in years.

--Nengyo _/\_

Sat today

**Kyonin** · 03-02-2017, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jakuden

This is what my daughter immediately thought of when I mentioned earworms... She is well-trained in Star Trek lore :-D

I salute and celebrate your daughter and your job as a Trekkie Mom.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

**Kyonin** · 03-02-2017, 03:55 PM

Hi guys,

Today my zazen was to the rhythm of Journey's Don't Stop Believing. It went away by the middle of the session.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Mp · 03-02-2017, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kyonin

Hi guys,

Today my zazen was to the rhythm of Journey's Don't Stop Believing. It went away by the middle of the session.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Wow, we are connected in some weird ways ... I too had this song, well the time of my life when this song was a big hit pop into my head during zazen. I heard it while shopping and then the time when I was a kid came up in my zazen ... don't tell anyone, but I think it made me crack a little smile. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

**Hoko** · 03-06-2017, 06:07 PM

**Jakuden** · 03-06-2017, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by Shingen

Wow, we are connected in some weird ways ... I too had this song, well the time of my life when this song was a big hit pop into my head during zazen. I heard it while shopping and then the time when I was a kid came up in my zazen ... don't tell anyone, but I think it made me crack a little smile. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

Ooh yes I heard this yesterday and have been singing it too!! Nothing like a lil' Journey to bring ya back a couple of decades.

As an aside... took daughter to a Journey concert last year... the new singer sounds more like Steve Perry than Steve Perry does. Go figure

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

**Kaishin** · 03-07-2017, 05:11 PM

I generally have songs, rhythms, beats, etc running through my head every waking moment. Never gave it much thought until Kirk posted this, and Jishin labelled it OCD.

Uh oh.

-satToday

**Ugrok** · 03-13-2017, 03:07 PM

Life is OCD !

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat today

**Kenshou** · 03-17-2017, 01:03 AM

My current earworm.
Gassho
Patrick
sat today

**Geika** · 03-17-2017, 01:57 AM

Oh gosh, Patrick! Any theme song can be sticky, but kids shows must be doubly so.

Gassho, sat today

**Jishin** · 03-17-2017, 02:23 AM

This one comes and goes.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Thread: Zazen and earworms

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