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Thread: Old demons

  1. #1

    Old demons

    Hello !

    I'm wondering if you guys also go through what i am experiencing right now : the coming and going of old demons, meaning, by that, the good old fears or psychological "stuff" that bothers you from time to time on a more or less regular basis and that seems to be "part of you".

    I'm kind of disappointed right now because, well, i started sitting zazen a few years ago to end this kind of bullshit : for me, mostly, it's health anxiety : for example this time i got a bit sick, i began over worrying about it, then from the worry my throat felt tight, i felt it during zazen, and i began to worry about my throat being tight, and the more i worried the tighter it became, until i began to fear that i could not swallow or breathe anymore because of the lump in my throat (which is of course totally untrue or i would not be there writing about it). Of course usually after a few days of this i have a cancer or the worst unknown disease in the world. This kind of "crisis" happens regularly in my life, often starting when i'm really tired or when i'm in some kind of transition (changing job, changing home, changing woman, etc.).

    Thing is, at first zazen helped me a lot ; i mean, for two years i did not have this kind of anxiety anymore. I thought that somehow it was over. It really pains me to see that i can fall in that trap again. Still i notice that i have made some progress : i can now be calm and experience the emotional storm without it leading me to do stupid things, like really panic, call 911 or stuff like that.

    But i'm really blocked with the fear of my own body aging and being uncomfortable, i often feel like it's my enemy. I begin to see that i have to allow everything in zazen, and maybe during those last months of practice i did not do it but tried to do "good zazens". In the middle of anxiety and discomfort, for the first time yesterday, i could allow everything to be as it was, and i felt a tremendous comfort in that, in a "well, let me die here if i must" kind of way. Sadly, if i know this attitude in zazen, it's really more difficult during "everyday life". Especially the fact that this attitude, in fact, should not be "commanded" by will ; if i begin to "try" to feel like letting go, it doesnt work - and it's really harder to have this frame of mind during work for example (im a teacher).

    Maybe all of this is a kind of lesson ? Because this forces me to change my attitude in zazen, to explore new ways of being and to try to make peace with discomfort. Kind of sad it has to go through crises to evolve. I also see now that i kind of thought, without being really conscious of it, that zazen "protected" me or something like that. Now i see that it's the opposite attitude that "works" : zazen is really good for nothing, and if it makes you strong, it's by making you acknowledge that you are completely vulnerable, and the weakest thing on earth. Which in a way is a relief.

    Oh well. Started as a question, ended as rambling, sorry.

    Ugrok
    Sat Today

  2. #2
    zazen is really good for nothing, and if it makes you strong, it's by making you acknowledge that you are completely vulnerable, and the weakest thing on earth. Which in a way is a relief


    I find this to be true too. At first I thought zazen was going to fix all my fears and anxieties. It can certainly make them easier to sit with but even if we manage to resolve one set of issues in some way, there is surely another set waiting to come and, as you have experienced, old demons have a habit of showing up again.

    As you also say, not seeing these things as an enemy is a huge relief and makes a big difference. I don't think we are ever going to stop the demons coming, but we can learn to make friends with them.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #sattoday

  3. #3
    Hello demons,

    Recognized, acknowledged and let go.

    "Rinse, and repeat as needed."




    Gassho
    Myosha
    sat today
    Last edited by Myosha; 11-08-2016 at 12:42 PM.
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  4. #4
    Hi Ugrok,

    Thing is, at first zazen helped me a lot ; i mean, for two years i did not have this kind of anxiety anymore. I thought that somehow it was over. It really pains me to see that i can fall in that trap again. Still i notice that i have made some progress : i can now be calm and experience the emotional storm without it leading me to do stupid things, like really panic, call 911 or stuff like that.
    I read your text and I want to tell you something I am not shure if it is the common understanding here. Dogens idea of "dropping body and mind" is the starting point. But I think - perhaps not like the Soto-People - that this saying is wordly true. I translated it for me in: "I am not my body. I am not my mind." So, the only thing I can say is that if you drop body-and-mind you still exist . . When I started with zazen I was shure, that my problems are not a problem without judging them.
    The self makes the self....... something like that was the sentence from Sawaki. And that was maybe the reason, that you did not have this kind of anxieties. So, no problem anymore. As long as you are in that thinking-style you are really free of that. But than the routine comes and .......

    So, I don´t worry so much about illness. I do not take my body too serious. It is not what it is all about!?

    just my idea.

    sat today
    Gassho

    Ernst

  5. #5
    Mp
    Guest
    Hey Ugrok,

    Attitude and perception are facets of the mind, understand that they exist, but try to not allow me to take over and determine your outlook on life. Experience life through the lens of the present moment and not by the shadows within your mind. We all face bumps along the way in our practice, this is normal ... just don't get knocked off track while going over those bumps.

    “Life and death are of supreme importance. Time swiftly passes by and opportunity is lost. Each of us should strive to awaken. Awaken! Take heed, do not squander your life.” - Dogen
    Gassho
    Shingen

    s@today

  6. #6
    Recognized, acknowledged and let go.

    "Rinse, and repeat as needed."
    Thanks Myosha _/\_

    sat Today
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  7. #7
    I have been doing zazen for over 20 years now and I still have old demons come back now and then. For me I have found that if I greet those old demons as old friends they disappear. But you need to find their roots and through zazen those root strings will be cut.

    Good luck.
    Gassho

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N930A using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Hi Ugrok,

    The more meaning you look for, the more you seek, the more your inner demons will haunt you. Just sit for the sake of it and then go do something for the well being of other sentient beings.

    Generosity and compassion always work because they allow us to get off from ourselves and center in the needs of others. Then when you look back inside you, the demos become smaller. Maybe just a little, but it helps.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  9. #9
    Joyo
    Guest
    I too have old demons that reappear. I can go along for quite some time, thinking they are gone, and then some sort of trigger and there they are again.

    There's a lot of good advice posted here already. =)

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today

  10. #10
    Invite the demons in for tea and listen to their plans. Politely decline and offer them more tea.

    I think this is the best approach... they will always be around
    Thanks,
    Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
    Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

  11. #11
    Echoing what others (and you) have said. Darn good-for-nothing Zazen! Deep bows to you for continuing to sit regardless of what goes on in the mind, and remember we are all there with you having tea with the demons. My anxiety demon especially likes to show up on Sunday night and Monday morning, but she also does random drive-by's just to keep me on my toes. Maybe we could introduce them and they will leave us alone.
    Gassho
    Jakuden
    SatToday


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  12. #12
    Thanks for all your kind and helpful answers.

    Things are sometimes strange. Before this "crisis", zazen was quite hard, especially in the dojo with my local sangha. Now that i'm really feeling anxious, zazen has become the most peaceful and easy moment of my day, even in the dojo. I can feel my body tension dissolve the longer i sit, when before, it was the complete opposite.

    It's all zazen, i guess, no matter what the content is. But i must say it helps a lot to have a kind of oasis in which i can retreat from the irrational fear of my own body - for christ's sake, body, i've been living my life "normally" with this lump in my throat for the last 10 days now, if it was really dangerous or harmful you would know it by now ! But guess what ? No, I still believe somehow that it will kill me, that it will never disappear, that i'm stuck with discomfort for the rest of my life. Even when i see this tension dissolve again and again when i sit, which clearly shows me that it's only due to worrying. But can't seem to stop it rationnaly, so i just have to somehow stop trying and go with it i guess.

    I'm also aware that it is a kind of mistake to kind of "use" zazen like that, but i can't help it for now.

    Uggy, demonsat today
    Last edited by Ugrok; 11-09-2016 at 11:22 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Myosha View Post
    Hello demons,

    Recognized, acknowledged and let go.

    "Rinse, and repeat as needed."




    Gassho
    Myosha
    sat today
    Ukrok, thanks for sharing, I think that my demons are always there, all depends where I decided to see. Sorry for my English. Good day. Big huge.

    Thank you Myosha, big huge, Gassho.

    Sat today.
    Last edited by Judith del Carmen; 11-09-2016 at 07:59 PM.

  14. #14
    Try immersing right into the feeling that is generated, as you sit. Don't reject it. Stay in it, or return back into it if the mind wanders. Each outward breath can be used to immerse deeper. What happens after a time?

    IME these can be wonderful doorways

    m

    sat-2day
    Last edited by michaeljc; 11-10-2016 at 05:40 AM.

  15. #15
    Well, as i just experienced, a tremendous relief, near extasy... damn im sad that i have to get up from the cushion !

    Uggy
    Sattoday

  16. #16
    Now make no big deal out if it. I regularly use this technique (calling it my house cleaning) and find that hard times are more fruitful in practice than good times. A burning life issue can work rather similar to a koan

    m

    Sitting soon

  17. #17
    Still, it's really incredible how your body can spontaneously produce bliss in the middle of suffering ! Sadly, it does not last and you have to get up sooner or later, but i now get that people can become addicted to what they call "jhanas" in other schools of buddhism.

    What is interesting is also, as you mentioned, the "time" factor. It takes time to settle and go deeper.

    I agree with you that practice is more fruitful during difficult times. Maybe it is because when we are in trouble, we do not cling as much to our sense of self as usual. For example, nowadays on the cushion, i really let go, i'm in a "no matter if i die, anyway i feel like crap" attitude. And i find that it's really opening. There is a line in one of suzuki's books, a student asks him : "Roshi, do we have to lose the will to live ?" And he answers "Yes, but without gaining the will to die". When i feel really bad and anxious as is the case nowadays, i really let go. Sometimes on the cushion i don't care anymore if i die or not. And i think this bliss comes, in part, from this frame of mind. Maybe i'm wrong, but this might explain in part why practice in a difficult time is more fruitful.

    Uggy, sat today

  18. #18
    Hi Uggy

    In my view our practice has not started to mature until we lose fear of death. I too find that time each session on the cushion is important. Things don't start to kick in inside 30 m. I find that longer sits of 45 m + with the attitude "I am going to sit for ever" to be useful. I can't see anyway around time on the cushion. No sitting means no practice (IMO).

    Yes, bliss can be addictive. The problem is we/I can be tempted to go back looking for it. It don't work :-)

    Cheers

    m

    Sat 2day

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