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Thread: Zazen for Beginners Series: THREAD for QUESTIONS, COMMENTS

  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Koki View Post
    Thank you Jundo!
    You are quite the "Realtor" at pointing out our TRUE HOME

    Gassho
    Koki
    Sattoday
    l get 6% for every closing ... and opening.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #202
    Hello
    I have some questions about video 20 - what can it actually mean to save another sentient being?
    How can anyone "save" anyone else?
    Aren't we "saved" when we sit?
    So if someone refuses to sit?.....

    As I understand it in Mahayana the Bodhisatva vow is usually some form of "May I attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings".
    Is it the same/similar in this tradition?
    If so, I save other sentient beings by attaining my own buddhahood? (Hhmmm truly talking in two directions at the same time - I am slowly starting to pick this zen thing up!)


    Also, how is compassion defined in this tradition?
    If I want to be "compassionate" then knowing what constitutes that is kind of important!
    Previously, I heard from a teacher (different tradition) who defined compassion as seeing the source of a persons suffering; so, a compassionate act is always one that diminishes suffering; this means to assist a suffering person to see their cause of suffering as a result of being in conflict (somewhere along the line) with, or denial of, the four noble truths - the remedy being the Noble Eightfold Path (a self-referential feedback loop for the four noble truths). Is it the same in zen or am I looking for some emotional content based around "heart"?
    (I am compassionate in daily life - ask all my rescue dogs! - and I put the flies outside too)

    Thanks
    Gassho
    Scott

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by DogBreath View Post
    Hello
    I have some questions about video 20 - what can it actually mean to save another sentient being?
    How can anyone "save" anyone else?
    Aren't we "saved" when we sit?
    So if someone refuses to sit?.....

    As I understand it in Mahayana the Bodhisatva vow is usually some form of "May I attain Buddhahood for the benefit of all sentient beings".
    Is it the same/similar in this tradition?
    If so, I save other sentient beings by attaining my own buddhahood? (Hhmmm truly talking in two directions at the same time - I am slowly starting to pick this zen thing up!)


    Also, how is compassion defined in this tradition?
    If I want to be "compassionate" then knowing what constitutes that is kind of important!
    Previously, I heard from a teacher (different tradition) who defined compassion as seeing the source of a persons suffering; so, a compassionate act is always one that diminishes suffering; this means to assist a suffering person to see their cause of suffering as a result of being in conflict (somewhere along the line) with, or denial of, the four noble truths - the remedy being the Noble Eightfold Path (a self-referential feedback loop for the four noble truths). Is it the same in zen or am I looking for some emotional content based around "heart"?
    (I am compassionate in daily life - ask all my rescue dogs! - and I put the flies outside too)

    Thanks
    Gassho
    Scott
    Hi Scott,

    First, may I ask you to change your photo from a dog to a human face? Although a dog has Buddha Nature, and although we love dogs, there is something about a human face that let's us look each other in the eyes and be a bit warmer here. Thank you.

    Next, on saving sentient beings ... although, truly there were never any sentient beings from the first in need of saving ... I usually tell folks this:

    This wise-crazy [Mahayana] Way is to realize, and allow other sentient beings to realize, that there have never been (ultimately) any sentient beings from the start, and thus (in the Wholeness which is "Emptiness") no conflict or lack from the start in need of repairing and rescuing! In the Wholeness which is emptiness, there is no lack in need of filling. Allowing sentient being to experience so in this world of separate beings who conflict and lack is how we rescue-non-rescue these beings-non-beings.

    However, so long as they/we are alive ("birth and death", by the way, are also ultimately only one way to view things), the sentient beings still need to live in this complicated, sometimes beautiful and sometimes ugly world, so another way to rescue sentient beings is to help them master how to live in the interplay of these two ways of viewing ... lack and no lack, fear and nothing originally to fear, conflicts and no individuals to conflict, death but no death etc. It's tricky!

    Finally, in modern times, many Buddhists have become a bit more focused on "rescuing sentient beings" by material actions in this world, e.g., feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, etc. It was not that Buddhists would not have liked to do such in the past (and there were many ancient Buddhists who did good charitable work like that in the past), but it was much harder in the medieval, agricultural, traditional, class bound kingdoms and empires of old Asia. So, a lot of Buddhists took the attitude that this world was just hopeless, best to "get out of Dodge," either by escaping rebirth completely or just building a wall and shutting the monastery gates. Now, today, in modern societies, "engaged" Buddhist efforts to make an impact on the problems of society such as hunger, war and poverty are possible for the first time, so many Buddhists (Treeleaf folks among them) are more socially involved.

    Many ways to rescue even if ... ultimately ... nobody in need of rescue. Even if there are no hungry mouths to feed "ultimately" ... there are hungry mouths to feed in this world, so let's feed them!
    It is not merely a matter of compelling others to sit Zazen (I don't know that it would be legal!), nor even something that we can even accomplish. However, the above also tells us that, while we keep working, there was never anything to "accomplish" from the start. Thus our crazy-wise Bodhisattva Vows which many of us recite say this ...

    To save all sentient beings, though beings numberless

    To transform all delusions, though delusions inexhaustible

    To perceive Reality, though Reality is boundless

    To attain the Enlightened Way, a Way non-attainable

    As to Compassion, it is really all of the above too, and has many facets. First, reality is already "Compassionate" because there is not suffering from the startless start. Yet, sentient beings in their broken vision of the world do not realize this, so we are Compassionate when we seek to get suffering sentient beings to realize this Wholeness of Emptiness. We are also Compassionate when we reach out to aid people in their earthly needs and pains. Alas, it is an endless road, yet we have never but arrived!

    Does that make any sense?

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #204

  5. #205
    Thanks, I will check out the links and try to upload another photo.
    Gassho
    Scott

  6. #206
    Hello Jundo
    Profile pic:-
    I just went to my profile page and the second photo I tried to upload is there - is that one ok, or would you prefer a different one without the dog and shades? Please let me know if I need to change it or not.
    avatar image:-
    I assume I still need to upload a 80x80 pixel photo? Am not sure how to find something so small (I'm a Luddite by choice which can be a problem when you actually need to use the machine!) - I will work on that later today.
    Gassho
    Scott

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by DogBreath View Post
    Hello Jundo
    Profile pic:-
    I just went to my profile page and the second photo I tried to upload is there - is that one ok, or would you prefer a different one without the dog and shades? Please let me know if I need to change it or not.
    avatar image:-
    I assume I still need to upload a 80x80 pixel photo? Am not sure how to find something so small (I'm a Luddite by choice which can be a problem when you actually need to use the machine!) - I will work on that later today.
    Gassho
    Scott
    Hi Scott,

    I love dogs (honestly, well, I am more of a cat fellow although dogs are great too!), but would prefer a human face. It helps keep things warm and human (not furry) around here. Thank you.

    Instructions are here ...

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...n-Avatar-Photo

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  8. #208
    Could you please look at posts at end of Precepts on anger? I have I think been angry about weather or not Shikantaza was going well, but today somewhat sad’ I followed directions for Zazen as best I can and used insight timer. Time felt like nothing and when I finished at about 17 min 40 sec I felt nothing at first then calm.
    Tai Shi
    sat
    Gassho



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Shi View Post
    Could you please look at posts at end of Precepts on anger? I have I think been angry about weather or not Shikantaza was going well, but today somewhat sad’ I followed directions for Zazen as best I can and used insight timer. Time felt like nothing and when I finished at about 17 min 40 sec I felt nothing at first then calm.
    Tai Shi
    sat
    Gassho



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    One should sit in equanimity and patience, accepting even days when it is sunny or when it rains, when Zazen feels "right and calm" or feels "off" somehow. Then, if sitting with such equanimity and patience, Zazen is always right and there is nothing to be angry about.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  10. #210
    True beginners mind here.

    History:
    I have been sitting zazen twice a day for 30 minutes each session. I've been doing this for the last 14 days. I've also read "Beginners Mind" by Suzuki, "Why Buddhism is true" by Wright, "What is Zen" by Fisher and Moon, "The Circle of the Way" by O'Brian, and now reading "Taking the Path of Zen" by Aitken.

    Question:
    When I sit, the "clouds" that come into my mind are zen sayings and zen focused thoughts instead of being emotions or other issues in my life. Should I quit reading about zen until I asorb what's bouncing around and the zen clouds quite down?

    Gassho, Drew

  11. #211
    Hi Drew;

    It almost sounds as if you are seeing these clouds like the balloons in comics. This reminds me of a few months ago a lady in our Monday sitting group (she has been sitting Zazen for over thirty years) asked how one opens the hand of thought and lets the thoughts go because she thinks mostly in pictures and it takes some time for the images to dissipate. Well, I put the question out here on the forum and one of our members replied that for years he has been struggling with images of hand positions demonstrating various ways to play chords on a keyboard. It finally occurred to him that this was his egos way of catching his attention; being a pianist and practicing different voicings is a preoccupation with him and his ego recognized that. Once he caught on to this he no longer saw it as a problem and his brain stopped showing the hand positions. Nothing has power except what you give it (quote from a greek philosopher) There is no good Zazen and there is no bad Zazen. There is just YOUR Zazen. Shall we dance?

    gassho, Shokai
    stlah

    P.s. can we see your avatar sometime soon?
    Last edited by Shokai; 01-07-2020 at 01:11 AM.
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by drew View Post
    True beginners mind here.

    History:
    I have been sitting zazen twice a day for 30 minutes each session. I've been doing this for the last 14 days. I've also read "Beginners Mind" by Suzuki, "Why Buddhism is true" by Wright, "What is Zen" by Fisher and Moon, "The Circle of the Way" by O'Brian, and now reading "Taking the Path of Zen" by Aitken.

    Question:
    When I sit, the "clouds" that come into my mind are zen sayings and zen focused thoughts instead of being emotions or other issues in my life. Should I quit reading about zen until I asorb what's bouncing around and the zen clouds quite down?

    Gassho, Drew
    Hi Drew,

    Welcome again, and Happy New This Moment!

    When clouds of thought come, whether on Zen sayings or that you need to buy eggs or whatever, just let them drift by and away without engaging with them too much. Know the clarity, openness and light of the clear sky that shines between AND right through the clouds as they drift. Clouds come and clouds go, to be met with the same nonengagement and equanimity as anything else in the room where you sit, like a table in the corner or the sound of a car passing outside.

    So, it is okay to keep reading and studying a bit (when off the sitting cushion, of course! )

    By the way, those books you mention are all wonderful, but know that they each come from somewhat different approaches to Buddhism and/or Zen, like different chefs talking about how they make soup. Beginners Mind is a Soto Zen classic, and "What Is Zen" is also about at the top of my own list of books recommended for folks new to Soto Zen. But why Buddhism is true is a very stripped down psychological approach to vipassana and "mindfulness" meditation. "Taking the Path of Zen" is also excellent, but Aitken Roshi comes from a corner of Zen Buddhism that emphasizes Koan centered Zazen to attain Kensho experiences, and that comes through on some pages of the book. "Circle of Zen" is a wonderful history, but might be a lot of information for somebody so new to the Practice.

    In any case ... keep sitting!

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatTodayLAH
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  13. #213
    Jundo,

    thank you. I did notice the different biases or basis in each book. I did find the walkthrough history in circle of Zen very interesting and also realized that I will need to read it again later to gain better insight. I forgot to mention that I have also listen all 22 of your intro videos, thanks for those as well.

    I'm off to sit.

    Gassho, drew

  14. #214
    First off, wanted to say that the beginner talks are excellent! Thank you. They have been very helpful (...and I love how Yuriko comes in to steal the spot light from time to time ) I kind of like to go slow, so I'm only up to video 12 -- hence why I've been a little quiet.

    Anyway, I do have a couple personal observations that I am curious about...

    I'm not exactly brand new to the Zazen posture, but I am 100% self-taught. The Basic Postures and Mechanics of Sitting talk was very helpful. I have always found the Burmese sitting style the most comfortable.

    When I sit (currently about 15 - 20 minutes a day, occasionally twice a day, and sometimes half hour sessions on weekends) I always start out feeling pretty balanced and relaxed. Sometimes, about midway in, it is as if my thigh muscles are flexing to help keep me balanced. I am using a zafu and my knees touch the floor, so its not that. It is almost like my thigh muscles are working to keep my core posture in alignment. I know this is probably hard without seeing my posture, but is this normal? It can be distracting sometimes, but I also thought maybe it is just something that will get better as I condition myself more to sitting? Or is this a sign that I might need to readjust my posture when I notice my thigh muscles doing this?

    Gasho,
    Ryan
    Sat Today

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan-S View Post
    First off, wanted to say that the beginner talks are excellent! Thank you. They have been very helpful (...and I love how Yuriko comes in to steal the spot light from time to time ) I kind of like to go slow, so I'm only up to video 12 -- hence why I've been a little quiet.

    Anyway, I do have a couple personal observations that I am curious about...

    I'm not exactly brand new to the Zazen posture, but I am 100% self-taught. The Basic Postures and Mechanics of Sitting talk was very helpful. I have always found the Burmese sitting style the most comfortable.

    When I sit (currently about 15 - 20 minutes a day, occasionally twice a day, and sometimes half hour sessions on weekends) I always start out feeling pretty balanced and relaxed. Sometimes, about midway in, it is as if my thigh muscles are flexing to help keep me balanced. I am using a zafu and my knees touch the floor, so its not that. It is almost like my thigh muscles are working to keep my core posture in alignment. I know this is probably hard without seeing my posture, but is this normal? It can be distracting sometimes, but I also thought maybe it is just something that will get better as I condition myself more to sitting? Or is this a sign that I might need to readjust my posture when I notice my thigh muscles doing this?

    Gasho,
    Ryan
    Sat Today
    Hi Ryan,

    Is you Zafu perhaps rather tall, or are you sitting a bit far back on the Zafu? Your spine should be slightly in front of the center axle of the round Zafu, and the Zafu should wedge nicely to offer support. Like here:



    This fellow is too far back ...



    I am thinking that something like this is too high, and would also put strain to stay on board ...



    There should be no such strain to stay in position. Experiment and report back.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #216
    I have found that in the past year I’ve been asking more about actually Soto Zen practice. I started the book Genjokoan and this next year will continue reading. It is my hope to get into the Diamond Sutra, to review Red Pine on the Heart Sutra, not sure I got much initially and continue learning about history of Buddhism, specifically b differences between Theravada, Tibetan, and Mahayana.
    Tai Shi
    sat
    Gassho


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  17. #217
    Wish to know more about Dogen. I’ve watched the film on Facebook, read a little more in How to Cook Your Life. Maybe read a short biography now. So MUCH reading!
    Gassho
    Tai Shi


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Ryan,

    Is you Zafu perhaps rather tall, or are you sitting a bit far back on the Zafu? Your spine should be slightly in front of the center axle of the round Zafu, and the Zafu should wedge nicely to offer support. Like here:



    This fellow is too far back ...



    I am thinking that something like this is too high, and would also put strain to stay on board ...



    There should be no such strain to stay in position. Experiment and report back.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Hi Jundo,

    Thank you for the advice and visual references. Much appreciated!

    I did some experimenting this morning with what you shared in mind and think I might be onto something now.

    I was very careful to ensure I was sitting so my spine was slightly in front of the center of my zafu and still experienced what I described. However, I took a moment to examine my posture after my session, and think my thigh muscles flexing is a result of me pitching forward slightly as I sit. It was such a gradual shift that I didn't notice. My back was still straight, but I was leaning forward a bit from the waist.

    My zafu looks similar in size and fullness to the one you use in your Beginners Series. Even so, I think it could be a little too high for me. Mine is stuffed with buckwheat hulls, and doesn't squish down much when I settle into it (gets pretty much daily use and I haven't noticed it breaking down much yet).

    I'll keep experimenting and work to keep my posture more centered. I also think I would like to try removing a cup or so of the buckwheat hulls. It may not be wedging enough for proper support, and therefore partially responsible for me pitching forward like this as I sit.

    Gassho,
    Ryan

    Sat Today

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan-S View Post
    Hi Jundo,

    Thank you for the advice and visual references. Much appreciated!

    I did some experimenting this morning with what you shared in mind and think I might be onto something now.

    I was very careful to ensure I was sitting so my spine was slightly in front of the center of my zafu and still experienced what I described. However, I took a moment to examine my posture after my session, and think my thigh muscles flexing is a result of me pitching forward slightly as I sit. It was such a gradual shift that I didn't notice. My back was still straight, but I was leaning forward a bit from the waist.

    My zafu looks similar in size and fullness to the one you use in your Beginners Series. Even so, I think it could be a little too high for me. Mine is stuffed with buckwheat hulls, and doesn't squish down much when I settle into it (gets pretty much daily use and I haven't noticed it breaking down much yet).

    I'll keep experimenting and work to keep my posture more centered. I also think I would like to try removing a cup or so of the buckwheat hulls. It may not be wedging enough for proper support, and therefore partially responsible for me pitching forward like this as I sit.

    Gassho,
    Ryan

    Sat Today
    Yes, you are actually the best judge of posture. This book is highly recommended for finding the posture(s) for you (plural, because the body is actually a bit fluid in sitting).

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-OF-MEDITATION

    However, I was just think to ask folks to post some pictures in another thread. You may want to do so so that I can take a look.

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yes, you are actually the best judge of posture.
    Prior to Treeleaf, about 7 years ago, I was able to sit one hour or more at a time without any pain. It was not till I joined Treeleaf and began reading and taking other folks advice on how to sit properly that I began to have pain and difficulty with sitting or kneeling for extended periods. Sitting is intuitive. Little instruction is needed. Attachment to “right sitting” or “posture” in my case has caused a lot of problems. I always do better when I ignore advice on how to sit and just sit.

    Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__

  21. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Prior to Treeleaf, about 7 years ago, I was able to sit one hour or more at a time without any pain. It was not till I joined Treeleaf and began reading and taking other folks advice on how to sit properly that I began to have pain and difficulty with sitting or kneeling for extended periods. Sitting is intuitive. Little instruction is needed. Attachment to “right sitting” or “posture” in my case has caused a lot of problems. I always do better when I ignore advice on how to sit and just sit.

    Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
    Ya see, this place does have effects on people!

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  22. #222

  23. #223
    It had another effect too. At work, there is somebody that was thrown on our team during a re-org who irritates everybody. Strongly suspect narcissistic issues. Today there was an IM thread complaining about and disparaging that person. I started to type my own comment and then thought. "There is much suffering that causes him to act this way" I will feel compassion and will not say anything disparaging.


    A small thing but a shift in thoughts and actions.

    Gassho, drew
    Sat

  24. #224
    Lately my Zazen has been mixed because of discomfort, not exactly the sensations I’m used to, I’ve been going without Lidocaine patches more often, so what I feel is more natural to my norm. Yet, I feel this may have nothing to do with how I feel during Shikantaza so maybe ignore sensation as best I can no matter the situation? Especially when sitting Zazen?
    Tai Shi
    sat
    Gassho


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  25. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Tai Shi View Post
    Lately my Zazen has been mixed because of discomfort, not exactly the sensations I’m used to, I’ve been going without Lidocaine patches more often, so what I feel is more natural to my norm. Yet, I feel this may have nothing to do with how I feel during Shikantaza so maybe ignore sensation as best I can no matter the situation? Especially when sitting Zazen?
    Tai Shi
    sat
    Gassho


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Do not ignore the situation, but do as you can not to run toward the situation or become tangled in thoughts about it.

    If you need (and it sounds like you may), sit focused on following the breath or counting the breath. If you need something stronger, I may even recommend a mantra (you can make your own, Tai Shi, that speaks to your heart and let me know. Perhaps something with your Christian faith would be fine.)

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  26. #226
    Thank you Jundo—think I’ll loop my mantra to simple breath counting then punctuate with The a Serenity Prayer.
    Tai Sho
    sat/ lah
    Gassho


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Peaceful Poet, Tai Shi. Ubasoku; calm, supportive, limited to positive 優婆塞 台 婆

  27. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Yes, you are actually the best judge of posture. This book is highly recommended for finding the posture(s) for you (plural, because the body is actually a bit fluid in sitting).

    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-OF-MEDITATION

    However, I was just think to ask folks to post some pictures in another thread. You may want to do so so that I can take a look.

    Gassho, Jundo
    Hi Jundo,

    I added the book to my list, I'll be sure to check it out. Thanks!

    I'll see about posting a picture sometime if you kick a thread up for that. I really appreciate how the focus is on being comfortable, and that this fact is brought up repeatedly in the intro video. I need to keep that my focus when it comes to posture.

    Short update -- I did experiment more this morning, removed a full cup of the buckwheat hulls (boy did I nearly make a mess there!) and my session was better. I definitely think the zafu height is part of it.

    Gassho,

    Ryan
    Sat Today

  28. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Prior to Treeleaf, about 7 years ago, I was able to sit one hour or more at a time without any pain. It was not till I joined Treeleaf and began reading and taking other folks advice on how to sit properly that I began to have pain and difficulty with sitting or kneeling for extended periods. Sitting is intuitive. Little instruction is needed. Attachment to “right sitting” or “posture” in my case has caused a lot of problems. I always do better when I ignore advice on how to sit and just sit.

    Gassho, Jishin, __/stlah\__
    Hi Jishin,

    I'm certainly one to overthink things, and can totally see where I might be working too hard to be in what I have in my head as an "authentic" posture. Thank you for this -- I think I needed a reminder/reinforcement that the whole idea is quite simple: "just sit"

    I'll be sure to keep this in mind as I settle in next time.

    Gassho,
    Ryan

    Sat Today

  29. #229
    Member bayamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Campinas, Săo Paulo, Brazil
    Aw geez how this bugs me. For all me years sitting, watching paint dry (actually now it's tiles, my wall has tiles), I've never been able to shake the "is my back straight?", and always check my shadow on the wall.
    #sattoday

    Sent from my SM-G610M using Tapatalk
    Oh, yeah. If I didn't have inner peace, I'd go completely psycho on all you guys all the time.
    Carl Carlson

  30. #230
    Member Yokai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2020
    Location
    Havelock North, Hawkes Bay, New Zealand
    Listened to Zazen for Beginners 1. Incisive. My head is full of blenders! Many thanks Jundo. Gasho Chris - sat today -

  31. #231
    If not for Treeleaf I would not be practicing at all.

    Due to certain issues, I am unable to straighten my spine, nor am I able to hold certain postures for lengths of time without severe pain or lingering side effects.

    Here, I don't have to - I sit or recline in a way that minimizes problems while fulfilling the intent and purpose of shikantaza.

    And sometimes, when the pain is there no matter what, I sit with that also and let things be as they are.

    Gassho
    Meian
    St lh

    Sent from my SM-G930U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Meian; 01-14-2020 at 03:03 PM.
    My life is my temple and my practice.

  32. #232
    合掌,生開
    gassho, Shokai

    仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

    "Open to life in a benevolent way"

    https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

  33. #233
    Zazen for Beginners (1) - Turning Down The Noise

    I had to take care watching this one as I have severe tinnitus, so thanks for the warning.

    As a former high school teacher, I wish that I had encountered the video earlier. It's superb for conveying the sense of what Zen and Buddhism itself are all about to teenagers (and older adults like myself). Even in retirement there are still ways and means of spreading the word about this Dharma talk. So if I am fortunate enough to survive the Coronavirus pandemic and get a chance to, that's what I'll do.

    Gassho,

    ZenHalfTimeCrock

    ST
    Last edited by ZenHalfTimeCrock; 03-21-2020 at 07:51 AM.

  34. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenHalfTimeCrock View Post
    Zazen for Beginners (1) - Turning Down The Noise

    I had to take care watching this one as I have severe tinnitus, so thanks for the warning.

    As a former high school teacher, I wish that I had encountered the video earlier. It's superb for conveying the sense of what Zen and Buddhism itself are all about to teenagers (and older adults like myself). Even in retirement there are still ways and means of spreading the word about this Dharma talk. So if I am fortunate enough to survive the Coronavirus pandemic and get a chance to, that's what I'll do.

    Gassho,

    ZenHalfTimeCrock

    ST
    Hi Zen (Would you mind to sign a human first name? lt makes things just a touch more human around here.)

    l like to say that Zazen is about hearing the Big "S" Silence that is found ringing forth as both ordinary worldly silence AND the greatest earthly noise. There are some old Zen book that say that sound is an excellent doorway in Zazen. Do you know that the tinnitus is in your ears, but the "being disturbed" by the tinnitus is your own doing between the ears. Try to practice not being disturbed even amid usually disturbing things. Later, there is a video about Zazen in downtown Tokyo that makes much the same point.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  35. #235

    Lightbulb

    I'm watching the full Zazen for Beginners series and I particularly loved the video number 7.

    When Jundo talks about the fact "we have forgotten the wisdom of the garden"—comparing our non-stop thoughts about right and wrong with the rocks and trees of his garden, it reminded of Master Dogen's koan #16 from Shinji-Shobogenzo:

    A monk asks the Zen Master: "How can we make mountains, rivers, and the earth belong to ourselves?"
    The Master says: "How can we make ourselves belong to mountains, rivers, and the earth?"


    According to the koan's commentary: "Mountains, rivers and the great earth are ceaselessly manifesting the teachings, yet they are not heard with the ear or seen with the eye. They can only be perceived with the whole body and mind. Be that as it may, how can we make ourselves belong to mountains, rivers, and the earth? What is that you are calling mountains, rivers and the earth? Indeed, where do you find yourself?"

    In my view, the interplay between subjectivism, objectivism and action in this koan is very interesting (to use Nishijima's approach). The monk, with his question, sees nature from the perspective of the self, while the master's retort makes the monk consider a completely different perspective, that of the mountains, rivers and earth. This apparent contradiction serves to show us that, in the end, only "the whole body and mind" can perceive reality, i.e. only when we bring subjectivity and objectivity together through action—Zazen.

    To get back to Jundo's video, when just sitting, we find ourselves beyond the self and also beyond perception. "Where do we find ourselves?" The answer is: in pure action.

    Thanks for the thought-provoking (pun intended) videos!

    Gassho,

    Luigi
    ST
    Last edited by Luigi; 04-18-2020 at 01:40 PM.

  36. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Luigi View Post

    In my view, the interplay between subjectivism, objectivism and action in this koan is very interesting (to use Nishijima's approach). The monk, with his question, sees nature from the perspective of the self, while the master's retort makes the monk consider a completely different perspective, that of the mountains, rivers and earth. This apparent contradiction serves to show us that, in the end, only "the whole body and mind" can perceive reality, i.e. only when we bring subjectivity and objectivity together through action—Zazen.
    Hi Luigi,

    I agree -- this was a very thought provoking talk from Jundo . Thank YOU for your thoughts and for sharing that koan as well! That gave me a lot to think about.

    Gassho,

    Ryan S
    Sat Today

  37. #237
    Just wanted to say a heartfelt "thank you" to Jundo for sharing this wonderful series of "beginner" videos. I'm looking forward to working my way through the rest of the series. Regardless of how long I've been practicing, I always find myself drawn back to the basics of Zazen. While the deeper teachings of Dogen and others certainly have their place too (and I do enjoy them), sometimes it really is as simply as just turning off the blender so that the water can become still once again, right?

    And call me crazy, but I can't help but think that "Jundo's Blender" would be a great name for either a new Koan or perhaps an alternative rock band. :-)

    Gassho,

    Rob

    --SatToday

  38. #238
    Thank you to Jundo for this series and for the whole Sangha for their insight into the lessons.
    I did #1 today with the blender. Oh my, what a great analogy. I was having this trouble even during sitting today. There are days, for whatever reason that I have times where this is an issue.

    I have practiced for a while on my own with no teacher or Sangha so this experience of having these two things is a bit daunting yet refreshing all at the same time. So I am learning and well frankly relearning all at the same time. Something to be grateful for, certainly.

    Gassho

    Sat Today.

    Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk

  39. #239
    Jundo,
    Regarding the #10 Mirror-mind, if I'm digesting the lesson correctly, I can understand the mirror-mind it two ways:

    1) The mirror represents how our minds should process information--without bias. A snake is neither good or evil--it is simply a snake.
    2) The mirror represents our senses in that we can never directly experience reality. We are always experiencing the world reflected through our senses.

    Either way seems to lead to the roughly the same conclusion.

    But Master Dogen's comment, "Just this moment is miscellaneous bits of utter delusion, in hundred thousand myriads of shining mirror reflections," doesn't seem to fit in either of these two understandings.
    Am I missing something?

    Thanks again for your teachings.

    Gassho,
    steve
    ST/LaH

  40. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by adahee View Post
    Jundo,
    Regarding the #10 Mirror-mind, if I'm digesting the lesson correctly, I can understand the mirror-mind it two ways:

    1) The mirror represents how our minds should process information--without bias. A snake is neither good or evil--it is simply a snake.
    2) The mirror represents our senses in that we can never directly experience reality. We are always experiencing the world reflected through our senses.

    Either way seems to lead to the roughly the same conclusion.

    But Master Dogen's comment, "Just this moment is miscellaneous bits of utter delusion, in hundred thousand myriads of shining mirror reflections," doesn't seem to fit in either of these two understandings.
    Am I missing something?

    Thanks again for your teachings.

    Gassho,
    steve
    ST/LaH
    Hi Steve,

    Most Zen wisdom is not based on an "either/or" way of encountering the world, but is more a way of knowing from simultaneously true perspective(s) (and non-perspective leaping past "perceiver" vs. "perceived" too) at once.

    So, for example, the mirror holds all within without judgement, in total non-resistance and equanimity, without separation or distinction of one thing from another ("this" and "that," me and you, friend and enemy, beautiful vs. ugly, etc.) In Zazen, one can sit within this mirror mind of equanimity and non-distinction, with all things both wholly one thing (the boundless mirror), and all things also wholly their own individual thing too shining brightly (each thing in the mirror might be said to also shine as the entire boundless mirror).

    That said, our daily life must function as countless bits of shattered mirror broken into this and that, me and you, friend and enemy, beautiful and ugly together. Master Dogen observed that, even so, it is still the same mirror, with each individual shattered thing still wholly one thing (still wholly the boundless mirror) and shining as its own individual thing too (each is still fully holding the entire boundless and unbroken mirror).

    For Dogen, it is not simply that we should call the former view of an unbroken mirror "wisdom," and the latter broken world as "ignorance," but we can come to see the wisdom that is always shining as and perfuming the ignorance. To see ignorance and division alone is ignorance, but to see through ignorance and division is wisdom in the guise of ignorance and division, i.e., the ignorance and division is just another face of wisdom and wholeness.

    I am not so concerned about this "directly experiencing reality," which is a bit of a false goal that some Zen folks misunderstand. We are always encountering the world as human beings, which means our mental experience of interpreting reality and the models of reality that we create between the ears, and are merely replacing one mental model of reality with experience of what seems a wiser one. To be human, we must live in a world divided, but we can also encounter the mental model of wholeness.

    A similar image is within the famous lines of the Genjo Koan:

    Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water.
    Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.


    This language contrasts with another moon reference a little earlier in the Genjo in which we make the mistake as seeing the moon of "Wholeness" and the divided things of the world as separate:

    When you see forms or hear sounds, fully engaging body-and-mind, you intuit dharma intimately. [It is then] unlike things and their reflections in the mirror, and unlike the moon and its reflection in the water, in which one side is illumined, but the other side is dark.

    Instead, the moon is the reflection, the reflection is the moon, and the wholeness of the mirror is never separate from the reflected separate things it holds.

    Let me know if that helps.

    Gassho, Jundo

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-07-2020 at 02:05 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  41. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    So, for example, the mirror holds all within without judgement, in total non-resistance and equanimity, without separation or distinction of one thing from another ("this" and "that," me and you, friend and enemy, beautiful vs. ugly, etc.) In Zazen, one can sit within this mirror mind of equanimity and non-distinction, with all things both wholly one thing (the boundless mirror), and all things also wholly their own individual thing too shining brightly (each thing in the mirror might be said to also shine as the entire boundless mirror).

    That said, our daily life must function as countless bits of shattered mirror broken into this and that, me and you, friend and enemy, beautiful and ugly together. Master Dogen observed that, even so, it is still the same mirror, with each individual shattered thing still wholly one thing (still wholly the boundless mirror) and shining as its own individual thing too (each is still fully holding the entire boundless and unbroken mirror).

    For Dogen, it is not simply that we should call the former view of an unbroken mirror "wisdom," and the latter broken world as "ignorance," but we can come to see the wisdom that is always shining as and perfuming the ignorance. To see ignorance and division alone is ignorance, but to see through ignorance and division is wisdom in the guise of ignorance and division, i.e., the ignorance and division is just another face of wisdom and wholeness.
    Yes that helps immensely. Thank you. So the model isn't concerned with the reflection. Rather the model considers the mirror as a perfect and infinite container that holds things perfectly without bias. I think I'm starting to "grok in full" (if anyone is a Heinlein fan). I think I see the wisdom of the broken mirror concept too.

    I love, "The depth of the drop is the height of the moon". That one line spoke a great deal to me.

    Again, I thank you for your teachings. I have so much to learn.

    Gassho,
    steve
    ST/LaH

  42. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by adahee View Post
    Yes that helps immensely. Thank you. So the model isn't concerned with the reflection. Rather the model considers the mirror as a perfect and infinite container that holds things perfectly without bias. I think I'm starting to "grok in full" (if anyone is a Heinlein fan). I think I see the wisdom of the broken mirror concept too.

    I love, "The depth of the drop is the height of the moon". That one line spoke a great deal to me.

    Again, I thank you for your teachings. I have so much to learn.

    Gassho,
    steve
    ST/LaH
    Hi Steve,

    The equanimity and "holding all within" of the mirror is something to feel in the bones, when sitting Zazen and when out in living the rest of life encountering all the sharp and round shards of the mirror.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatTodayLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  43. #243
    Member simone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
    Video #1 evoked a strong visceral reaction to the contrast between blender and calm. I “felt” how violent my constant mental chatter can become and had to watch it several times before I could allow myself to move on. Video #2 raised self-doubt and the question in me, “can I actually put down the hammer?”

    Gassho
    Simone
    ~sat today~

  44. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by simone View Post
    Video #1 evoked a strong visceral reaction to the contrast between blender and calm. I “felt” how violent my constant mental chatter can become and had to watch it several times before I could allow myself to move on. Video #2 raised self-doubt and the question in me, “can I actually put down the hammer?”

    Gassho
    Simone
    ~sat today~
    Hi Simone,

    Welcome again.

    You will find that many acts in Zen practice happen by -not- trying too much. I sometimes compare letting thoughts go to the child's game of "Chinese finger cuffs." Remember those?



    The more one pulls and pulls, the tighter they become, and the more difficult to escape. But simply relax, stop pulling, and they drop right off.

    Remember that our way is not to stop all thoughts and emotions in Zazen. Thoughts still come and go. It is just that we don't engage with them, let them lead us one after the other, or buy into what the emotions are selling. We just disentangle from thoughts.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatTodayLah
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  45. #245
    Number 7. Masterful metaphors. Dawn after a cloudy night.

    Gassho,

    Peter, who sat.

  46. #246
    I am not able to relocate the thread for Zendo do and don't during Zazenkai. Please advise. Thanks.

    Gassho,
    Judy
    sat

  47. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by MJG27 View Post
    I am not able to relocate the thread for Zendo do and don't during Zazenkai. Please advise. Thanks.

    Gassho,
    Judy
    sat
    Here they are Judy, both videos ... (Oh, and not a "wrong," but would you mind to put a human face photo to accompany your posts? It helps us look each other in the eye a bit here. Thank you. Here is how: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...n-Avatar-Photo )


    PS - There is no "wrong" or "right" in Zazen ... yet here is a little explanation of the "right" times to Bow (A Koan) ...


    Chant Book is here for those who wish to join in: CHANT BOOK LINK

    The other video I mention on Zendo decorum is this one, from our "Always Beginners" video Series:

    Sit-a-Long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners (12) - Basic Zendo Decorum At Home
    https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...093#post189093
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  48. #248
    I just wanted to share that two of the books recommended by Jundo really helped me shape a comfortable way to sit. Over three sentences here, but feel it is okay in this case

    The Posture of Meditation by Will Johnson

    This helped me understand the importance of alignment/relaxation/resilience (as the author breaks it down in the book). Specifically, feeling the pull of gravity on my posture and working with that to benefit my comfort so that I am not distracted by discomfort as much. Here, I feel that posture is absolutely what ever works best for an individual, so no matter if one has to recline, use a chair, is lucky enough to sit in a lotus variation, etc. --- I feel like this is a great book for all.

    Opening the Hand of Thought by Kōshō Uchiyama

    Among so many other things, this text helped me to learn how to handle a wandering mind. In it, he mentions returning to the posture/entrusting everything to the posture, which is how I think these two books work so well together. I take this to be: take a moment and reflect on what I learned from The Posture of Meditation at the beginning and during when I catch myself drifting. When my mind is wandering, I notice that my posture has often shifted, tensed up, or I'm leaning out of my center. I adjust ever so slightly, let go of the hand of thought, the rinse and repeat.

    Anyway, I know these are already recommended highly in the Sangha, but I wanted to share from one who is a beginner (always a beginner) to others finding their way to shikantaza that these two books work very well together.

    Gassho,

    Ryan s
    Sat Today
    Last edited by Bokugan; 08-20-2020 at 12:30 PM.

  49. #249
    Just finished this series. What a wonderful gift: Simplicity, wisdom and comedy, all in one. Very helfpul, thank you Jundo. I will continue with the Bodhisattva basics.

    Gassho, Tomás
    Sat&LaH

  50. #250
    I just finished this series, thank you Jundo for the incredibly helpful, accessible and practical content! I was particularly struck by the Mirror mind talk, video number 10. I am very interested in practicing cultivating this type of mind.

    Gassho,
    John
    Sat today

    Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk

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