Does it matter how you 'visualise' thoughts?

[Martpr72]

For the most part when in zazen I 'imagine' I am a stone falling through a pool of water in to the still depths. As thoughts come along the water gets cloudy and there are ripples. As the thoughts dissipate the ripples calm down and the water becomes still and clear again. And I'm left sitting in the still calm.

Using the analogy of a blue sky with clouds as thoughts just doesn't work for me. It does with my eyes closed but not with them slightly open.

But this morning the still water just didn't cut it either. It was more like a train coming for each thought and me jumping on a train when a big thought took over. Then I'd be sitting by as the thought went off.

What does everyone else think? And does the analogy change from sitting to sitting? Does it matter?!

Gassho
Mart

Sat2Day


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[Ernstguitar]

Hi Mart,

I do not visualize anything. As you said, this is just an analogy (a state-of-mind-analogy). It helps to understand that nothing has to be done here and now.
Sometimes it happens, that I see my metaphor. But that is not intended.

There is just "now-time", whatever we do. Thinking or not thinking. It is the same now. And when I sit it is the same. If I am like the blue sky and there are clouds, that is how it is sometimes. - that should be the metaphor. Not a picture or a visualisation. That is just my opinion, so take it with........

Gassho,
Ernst

sat today

[Myoku]

Dear Mart,
as I see it the idea of a stone in water or clouds in the sky is just an analogy that helps the thinking mind to grasp an idea of whats going on, its _not_ intended to be visualized during zazen. For me the train you mentioned best fits many times, but then again, this analogy is only useful while we talk here.
When sitting zazen any analogy is just another thought, let it come and go and dont feed it by trying to figure which is right or best suited.
Enjoy zazen and thank you
Gassho
Myoku
sat today

[Eishuu]

I don't think I usually use analogies while actually sitting...there's already a lot going on in my mind. I just try to pay attention. Before or after I might use an analogy to reflect on what I'm about to do or what just happened.

Having said that though the other day an analogy popped into my head in the middle of meditation...it was that my mind was like a house full of bees (I have actually had a swarm of bees in my house, but that's another story). The bees were the thoughts. And if I chased the bees around or got angry with them and tried to get rid of them, they would get more busy and aggitated. So instead I imagined opening the windows and leaving the bees alone. Gradually they started leaving on their own until the swarm turned into just one or two bees or just silence. I think that attitude then carried on through the rest of the sit.

It's interesting that the blue sky and clouds analogy works for you with your eyes closed but not open. I wonder why that is? Is it because having your eyes open tends to stimulate more thoughts? I meditated with my eyes closed for years and am still getting used to having them open...it does feel different. - easier for me to get still with them closed but I feel more connected to everything with them open. I can relate to your image of following a thought as getting on a train...it's definitely like that for me.

Noticed you have just joined. Welcome!

Gassho
Lucy
Sat today

[Jishin]

Hi Mart,

Having some kind of anchor is common. Counting, watching the breath, paying attention to posture or open awareness to surroundings can and are used. Maybe repeating Coca Cola can be used to settle the mind? So what you are doing may be okay to settle the mind. But I would not make an effort to keep the technique going throughout the sitting. It drops off naturally when your minds settles down. Then if it comes back, let it be. If it goes, let it be. Just be still like a mountain.

Ding. The bell has rung. Sitting is over. Time to get up and going with the rest of the day.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

PS: a lot of us use "Insight Timer" app for the smart phone. It allows members to sit together. Hope to see you there!

[Myosha]

For the most part when in zazen I 'imagine' I am a stone falling through a pool of water in to the still depths. As thoughts come along the water gets cloudy and there are ripples. As the thoughts dissipate the ripples calm down and the water becomes still and clear again. And I'm left sitting in the still calm.

Using the analogy of a blue sky with clouds as thoughts just doesn't work for me. It does with my eyes closed but not with them slightly open.

But this morning the still water just didn't cut it either. It was more like a train coming for each thought and me jumping on a train when a big thought took over. Then I'd be sitting by as the thought went off.

What does everyone else think? And does the analogy change from sitting to sitting? Does it matter?!

Gassho
Mart

Sat2Day


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Hello,

Throw it all away.

Just sit.


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jishin]

Throw it all away.

Just sit.

Yes. This is good advice. But then what?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Myosha]

Yes. This is good advice. But then what?

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Hello,

Unimaginable and "just" life.^^


Gassho
Myosha
sat today

[Jishin]

Yes! Got to get ready for work. Running late.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Mp]

Hey Mart,

Sometimes the mind is still, sometimes it is busy ... either way just sit. The mind has its own agenda at times, so our job is to just allow it to be - don't force it. Sitting is just sitting. =)

Gassho
Shingen

s@today

[Jakuden]

Hi Mart,

As Jishin said, I think often an anchor of some sort is helpful in getting the mind to settle, although ultimately shikantaza is to let go even of that. For a long time I had a mental image of ripples in water, and the blue sky/clouds image did not resonate as much with me. Sometimes a turbulent sit with lots of thoughts still brings to mind a little boat being tossed in the water... in my little boat, all is still as the waves come and go. But I think the more one practices, the less one needs those images to get to "just sitting" with open awareness, allowing thoughts to come and go.

Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday

[Jundo]

Dear Mart,
as I see it the idea of a stone in water or clouds in the sky is just an analogy that helps the thinking mind to grasp an idea of whats going on, its _not_ intended to be visualized during zazen. For me the train you mentioned best fits many times, but then again, this analogy is only useful while we talk here.
When sitting zazen any analogy is just another thought, let it come and go and dont feed it by trying to figure which is right or best suited.
Enjoy zazen and thank you
Gassho
Myoku
sat today

I agree with this. We have various analogies ... so clouds or trains or boats or bees are fine. However, I would not carry any of them too literally into sitting. They are just analogies for the experience of sitting. Frankly, if I were pressed for the most powerful analogy (and I will use it more in a new series of Beginners videos I am working on), it is the Clear Mirror analogy, that sits clear and boundless, rejecting nothing which comes into its surface ... beautiful or ugly, war or peace, big or small ... all without rejection, resistance or judgement.

I encourage everyone to listen to this talk and accompanying Reading from a monthly Zazenkai on the Ancient Mirror ... about 40 minutes, starting from the 1:50:00 mark (I think there is a podcast audio file too) ...

SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: MIRROR
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...h-Jundo-MIRROR

And let me introduce another model from another thread today, plus the reminder that (as strange as it sounds) the point of quieting and settling thoughts is --not-- actually about quieting and settling the thoughts!

Yes, this is the method of no-method. Attaining non-attaining. So, a little different from the other kinds of meditation you name. Ultimately, one finds that there is such which cannot be "returned to" nor ever "departed from". We are not trying to attain some special or unusual state but, by allowing the thoughts to still a bit and clear a bit, one realizes what what present all along.

Yesterday, I posted a short film of a Buddha snow globe. Suppose one were searching for the Buddha or the lovely water ...



By allowing the thoughts and emotions to settle a bit, one finds the Buddha present all along, the clear water which was present all along as they slowly emerge. They never went away somewhere, were always present right before one's eyes never truly hidden. However, that is not all, for one also discovers that the Buddha was beautifully reflected in each shining snowflake of thought, that the water was brought to life in the ripples even when not settled ... thus there really was not need to clear the thoughts at all! To the Wise Eye, all was Clear Flowing Buddha all along, settling or no settling, snowing or not snowing. Understand?

Thus, one settles the thoughts as a beginner but, to the advanced practitioner, Buddha Clarity is not a matter of settled thoughts or no settled thoughts (for always present and always seen even as the snow). There was really nothing to settle and clear, for all is Settled and Clear from the startless start, each twirling snowflake and rippling drop of water is Buddha too. Understand?
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post180177

So, the point of clearing and settling is to realize that there was nothing truly in need of clearing and settling all along. The wise eye can find Buddha in all the falling rippling storming twirling snowflakes of thought or no thought. Something like that.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Martpr72]

Thank you so much for the replies. It's really welcoming to receive so many useful insights in reply to my first post in the forum!

I love the bees analogy Lucy! I can really relate to that.

Jundo - the clear mirror analogy really hammers home what others have said. I particularly like this part from Kokyo Henkel...

"If we try to look directly at it, try to grasp the mirror, we won’t be able to; we will only get to see our ideas of it reflected in it. Therefore the practice is, rather than trying to see the mirror, simply to be the mirror."

The podcast is downloaded and I'm looking forward to listening to it.

Gassho,
Mart

Sat2Day

[Martpr72]

PS: a lot of us use "Insight Timer" app for the smart phone. It allows members to sit together. Hope to see you there!

Hi Jishin

I do use Insight Timer, yes. I have added the Treeleaf Zendo group to my profile. How do you use it though to sit together?

Gassho,
Mart

Sat2Day

[Roland]

Jundo, thank you for your teaching. It really touches me.

Gassho

Roland
#SatToday

[Jishin]

Hi Jishin

I do use Insight Timer, yes. I have added the Treeleaf Zendo group to my profile. How do you use it though to sit together?

Gassho,
Mart

Sat2Day

Hey Mart,

You sort of sit together with other people from Treeleaf that you run into while using the Insight Timer app. I usually see at least 3 people in the AM when I am sitting and leave a mssg saying "thanks for meditating with me" which is the default message to send to others that are/sat with you while you are meditating. I then go to the group "Treeleaf" and post something there saying "have a horrible day and don't came back. See you tomorrow". I dont think people get a time and plan on sitting together at the same time though.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Jakuden]

How do you send the "thanks for meditating " message? I saw the option somewhere but then couldn't find it again.
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Jishin]

How do you send the "thanks for meditating " message? I saw the option somewhere but then couldn't find it again.
Gassho,
Jakuden
SatToday


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Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

Aha thanks!
Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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