The layman. The monk. No one.

[Kairu]

Hello fellow Treeleafers,

I've begun to understand the differance/non-differance between those who wholeheartedly act out their practice in a monestary, and those who wholeheartedly act out their practice in "normal" life. One seems ruthless, as the other gains no publication.

I have been contemplating putting every fiber of my being Into the practice, but have been hesitant because I don't know if its necessary or not. Even today I bowed to a toilet I was about to clean at work, but almost felt as though I shouldn't have to because "I'm just a layman".

I have met some Buddhists in my lifetime who live as though their home is a monestary, and I have met those who treat the practice casually (but not without seriousness).

What is the way way? I'd sure like to.

Kyle,
Sattoday.

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk

[Ryan379]

Life is our temple
Our home is our monastery
Work is our samu
All is sacred
Every moment is an opportunity to practice

Personally I see nothing wrong in bowing to the toilet, the shower, toothbrush etc, gasshoing before and after eating, gasshoing to others etc.

Since nothing is separate we're simply bowing and gasshoing to ourselves, and to the universe in its various manifestations

On the subject of bowing to toilets, I believe that in Zen temples in Japan monks and priests bow and even prostrate 3 times before the toilet etc before and after use at times

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

[Rich]

The way is loose and natural. It's just that most of the time we are caught up in our thinking, delusion and ego. Just being aware helps.

SAT today

[Jishin]

Hi,

I don't bow to the toilette because I crap in it.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

[Kyonin]

Hi Kyle,

It is true what the folks up there say. Life is our temple and everything we do is sacred. Sometimes bowing to a toilet allows us to acknowledge its usefulness, the work behind it and how much it serves to our lives. Sometimes there's no time for that or we simple aren't in a mindful mood.

Just today I bowed several times to an old computer that died on me. It was a friend that served me well for 8 years! I bowed, felt a little sad and will sit and light some incense for it.

Whatever the case, we must learn to see all in life is sacred. You don't need to be a monk to realize this.

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Byrne]

Bowing ain't my thing. Feels weird. Feels artificial. When I'm finding myself at a service with a lot of bowing I play along respectfully, but in day to day I try to keep the sense of what we all sense through this senseless practice on my mind and hope it comes through in my actions. I dig toilets though. They do a fine job.

Gassho

Sat Today

[Jundo]

Bowing ain't my thing. Feels weird. Feels artificial. When I'm finding myself at a service with a lot of bowing I play along respectfully, but in day to day I try to keep the sense of what we all sense through this senseless practice on my mind and hope it comes through in my actions. I dig toilets though. They do a fine job.

Gassho

Sat Today

Sometimes when doing a lot of bowing and bowing at a Sesshin, it begins to feel repetitive, pro forma.

At other times though, I have been so moved with feelings of gratitude for the interconnection and mutual support of everybody and everything in life ... toilets and mountains, spoons and shovels, flowers and stars ... that I have cried like a baby as I bowed.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jundo]

Hello fellow Treeleafers,

I've begun to understand the differance/non-differance between those who wholeheartedly act out their practice in a monestary, and those who wholeheartedly act out their practice in "normal" life. One seems ruthless, as the other gains no publication.

I have been contemplating putting every fiber of my being Into the practice, but have been hesitant because I don't know if its necessary or not. Even today I bowed to a toilet I was about to clean at work, but almost felt as though I shouldn't have to because "I'm just a layman".

I have met some Buddhists in my lifetime who live as though their home is a monestary, and I have met those who treat the practice casually (but not without seriousness).

What is the way way? I'd sure like to.

Kyle,
Sattoday.

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk

It may be interesting to you that, by the Buddha's own Words in the old Suttas, living an ordinary life ... finding balance and Buddha in all daily things and the complexities of this world ... may actually be the HARDER and more DEMANDING practice than being in a monastery! It is true. By one perspective, the Buddha traditionally may have been prescribing "homeleaving" and practice "removed from the world" for folks who just could not 'handle it on the outside' (as they say in prison movies). The Buddha was quoted to say the following in several old Sutta ... such as here, from the Cūḷahatthipadopama Sutta: The Shorter Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprint ...

... Notice that the Buddha simply says "not easy, while living in a home". This implies that leaving home is the easier path, while Practice amid the crowds and dust takes some Mahayana Insight to simultaneously encounter the utterly perfect in and amid the crowds, the purity unhindered by dust. He never says it is impossible at all at home ... just not as easy.

“A householder or householder’s son or one born in some other clan hears that Dhamma. On hearing the Dhamma he acquires trust in the Tathāgata. Possessing that trust, he considers thus: ‘Household life is crowded and dusty; life gone forth is wide open. It is not easy, while living in a home, to lead the holy life utterly perfect and pure as a polished shell. Suppose I shave off my hair and beard, put on the yellow robe, and go forth from the home life into homelessness.’ On a later occasion, abandoning a small or a large fortune, abandoning a small or a large circle of relatives, he shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the yellow robe, and goes forth from the home life into homelessness."

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middl...padopama-sutta

The routine, set schedule, warm place to sleep, hot meals, and "leaving worldly responsibilities behind" could be a shelter for those afraid of the world. In fact, the "world out there" is "Ruthless Practice," my friend.

There are folks better suited to Practice inside walls, some outside, some as hermits naked in a cave. Different medicines for different patients, and Buddhism thrives for having all kinds. All good, so long as we drop all thought of "walls". For most of us, I believe that there is a time to Practice in Retreat, sitting long and hard (like Mr. K. at Antaiji these days, sitting Zazen 15 hours a day in Sesshin, working in the fields and bowing to the WC), and there is a time to find our sacred space in each inch of this world. We find that Buddha’s Truths may be practiced any place, without divisions of “inside” walls or “outside”. For some of us, the family kitchen, children’s nursery, office or factory where we work diligently and hard, the hospital bed, volunteer activity or town hall are all our “monastery” and place of training. Some monks act self-lessly, while on the other hand, I have seen monks as concerned about "getting ahead" shining and "publication" inside monasteries as in any Fortune 500 company ... depends on the person.



I have seen folks outside (some working for companies) who are truly self-effacing, other directed and with no place in need of going.

About 150 years ago, Japanese priests began openly marrying, having kids and "the full catastrophe" (to quote Zorba the Greek). I believe it a good thing for some of us.

For thousands of years, it was nearly impossible to engage in dedicated Zen practice except in a monastic setting, to access fellow practitioners, teachers and teachings, to have the time and resources and economic means to pursue serious practice, except by abandoning one’s worldly life. By economic and practical necessity, a division of “Priest” and “Lay” was maintained because someone had to grow the food to place in the monks’ bowls, earn the wealth to build great temples, have children to keep the world going into the next generation. Although Mahayana figures like Vimalakirti stood for the principle that liberation is available to all, the practical situation was that only a householder with Vimalakirti’s wealth, leisure and resources might have a real chance to do so. Now, in modern societies with better distributions of wealth (compared to the past, although we still have a long way to go), ‘leisure’ time, literacy and education, media access and means of travel and communication across distances, many of the economic and practical barriers to practice and training have been removed. This is the age when we may begin to figuratively “knock down monastery walls”, to find that Buddha’s Truths may be practiced any place, without divisions of “inside” walls or “outside”.

In other words, bowing to toilet is not a matter of priest or layman. Everybody, even the Buddha, uses the toilet and can bow.

Anyway, enough of my soap box.

If you are interested, I wrote several essays on these topics found in this thread ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...onastery+walls

Gassho, J

SatToday right Thru Inside and Outside

[Kairu]

Thank you all for your insightful replies. I just felt like there was this huge gap between monk and layman, but at the same time I wasn't sure if the gap was just an illusion I made up. I never thought of practicing at home as harder, but now that it's been explained... Yeah, it is hard, isn't it? Heh.

About bowing to that toilet: I've been trying to do a little of that samu mentioned in the Rohatsu thread, and man is it hard. I find it to be even harder than sitting zazen. I find myself thinking about getting the job done, or I'll keep looking at the clock.

I decided that the best way to get back on track is to sing the word samu to the tune of jingle bells. Hahaha.

Also thank you all for giving me a lot of terms, names, and articles to look up.

Kyle,
-Samu all day erry day.

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk

[Ryan379]

Hi,

I don't bow to the toilette because I crap in it.

Gassho, Jishin, ST

This reminds me of case 21 of the Mumonkan (Katsuki Sekida translation):

A monk asked Unmon, "What is Buddha?"

Unmon replied, "Kanshiketsu!" (A dry shit-stick.)

Mumon's Comment:
Unmon was too poor to prepare plain food, too busy to speak from notes.

He hurriedly took up*shiketsu*to support the Way.

The decline of Buddhism was thus foreshadowed.

Mumon's Verse:

Lightning flashing,
Sparks shooting;
A moment's blinking,
Missed forever.

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

[Jundo]

This reminds me of case 21 of the Mumonkan (Katsuki Sekida translation):



Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

Yes. I will also point out Dogen's extensive writings on the sacredness of the toilet, only some of which I posted in preparations for our upcoming Rohatsu Retreat ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post166940

I left out some of his other writing on the sacredness of the toilet (this story references the habit of Rahula, the Buddha's biological son ... from when he was married before he started Buddhaing ... who became a monk, to sleep in the toilet room ... ) ...

In the fourteenth section of the Ten Procedures to Be Recited it says:
When Rahula, the Buddha’s son, was a novice, he took to
spending his nights in the Buddha’s lavatory. The Buddha, fully aware
of what His son was doing, patted Rahula on the head with His right
hand and recited this verse:

My son, it was not to be poor or in want,
Nor to rid yourself of fortune or position,
But simply to seek the Way that you left home,
Which will surely bring hardships enough to bear.

So, you see, the Buddha’s temple had its lavatory too. The form for dignified
behavior in the Buddha’s lavatory was to wash oneself clean, and the Ancestors, in
turn, passed this on to us. The conduct of the Buddhas has still been preserved: to
follow the ancient ways is a great joy and something indeed hard to come by.
Further, thankfully, the Tathagata gave voice to the Dharma for Rahula whilst in
the lavatory. The lavatory was a place fit for the Buddha to turn the Wheel of the
Dharma. How to conduct oneself in that training place of the Way is what the
Buddhas and Ancestors truly Transmitted.

Why did Rahula sleep there? Long story ...

A.i.24; the Vinaya (iii.16) gives a story illustrating Rāhula's extreme conscientiousness in the observance of rules. He arrived one evening at Kosambī, when the Buddha was staying there in the Badarikārāma. Rāhula was told there of a new rule which had been laid down to the effect that no novice should sleep under the same roof as a fully ordained monk. Unable to find any resting place which did not violate this rule, Rāhula spent the night in the Buddha's jakes [water closet]. When the Buddha discovered him there the next morning, he modified the rule. This incident and Rāhula's keenness in observing rules are described again in greater detail at J.i.161f.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pal.../r/raahula.htm

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jishin]

https://www.facebook.com/BuddhistHum...67300726687046

Buddhist Humor
November 7, 2012

A monk once asked Ummon, "What is the Buddha?"
Ummon answered thus: "A dried shit-stick!"
(Note: A 'dry shit stick' was the medieval equivalent of toilet paper. Hence Yunmen's reply is sometimes translated as "Something to wipe your arse on!")
------------
In his Enlightenment Day jodo, a dharma talk on Buddha's awakening, master Dogen said:

Whether Buddha is present or not present, I trust he is right under our feet. Face after face is Buddha's face; fulfillment after fulfillment is Buddha's fulfillment.

Last night, this mountain monk [Dogen] unintentionally stepped on a dried turd and it jumped up and covered heaven and earth. This mountain monk unintentionally stepped on it again, and it introduced itself, saying, "My name is Shakyamuni." Then, this mountain monk unintentionally stepped on his chest, and immediately he went and sat on the vajra seat, saw the morning star, bit through the traps and snares of conditioned birth, and cast away his old nest from the past. Without waiting for anyone to peck at his shell from outside, he received the thirty-two characteristics common to all buddhas, and together with this mountain monk, composed the following four line verse:

Stumbling I stepped on his chest and his backbone snapped,
Mountains and rivers swirling around, the dawn wind blew.
Penetrating seven and accomplishing eight,
bones piercing the heavens,
His face attained a sheet of golden skin.
----
Explanation: Buddha is everywhere. The Buddha-field is not just for animate observers, for we are contiguous with experience beyond us. There is no separation. If we experience a piece of crap, it is part of the Buddha-field experience.

"...To understand Dogen's bizarre story we must first understand the koan, a story in which the master Ummon says that Buddha is the same as a dry shit on a stick. Master Ummon simply says that Buddha is the same as reality before our eyes. If there is a dry shit on a stick right in front of our eyes, then reality is just a dry shit on a stick. Thus Buddha is a dry shit on a stick. If it still seems disrespectful, imagine how the historical Buddha taught somewhere: "I'm mountains, rivers, forests, skies, clouds, grass, all living and non-living beings, earthworms, sand, wind, rocks, but certainly I'm not a shit. And certainly not a shit on a stick, something you wipe your ass with."

When Buddha attained enlightenment, he said that together with him all things and all beings attained it. Enlightenment means to wake up to reality and reality does not exclude anything, so even a dry turd on a stick is necessarily a part of the enlightened reality."

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jishin]

"The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences." - Hsin Hsin Ming

With this disclaimer in mind...

Why bow to the toilette when it does not bow to me? And if it did bow to me would I not think "how bizarre, this is not a toilette at all!"

If a toilette could talk it would say "are you delusional? I am a toilette. Quit being ridiculous and crap on me. That is my proper function. That is my form. The sky is blue. The grass green. I am a toilette and made for holding shit and not bowing."

Just my crappy thoughts.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Kairu]

"Take everything with a spoon of neutrality" is what I'm gathering from this. Yet revere even the things we see as the lowest of low, because even the Buddha can be found in it. And even the highest of the high, even though we despise it. Cut perceptions with the flaming sword of wisdom, so to say?

Kyle
Sattoday.

Sent from my LG-D851 using Tapatalk

[Byokan]

Why bow to the toilette when it does not bow to me? And if it did bow to me would I not think "how bizarre, this is not a toilette at all!"

If a toilette could talk it would say "are you delusional? I am a toilette. Quit being ridiculous and crap on me. That is my proper function. That is my form. The sky is blue. The grass green. I am a toilette and made for holding shit and not bowing."

Hi All,

Toilets. Do you think that your toilet is not bowing to you? Your toilet rolls at your feet in ecstasy. Toilets not only talk, they sing. All the toilets, stars, rocks, trees, animals, buildings, machines, doughnuts, hammers, shoes, the very sky and the planets swinging in their orbits and every atom in the universe, are all singing a song, singing their hearts out, singing about you. It's not out of line to say, hey thanks for the song, that's very nice. Toilet form and function? Sure. Also toilet formless and functionless. Also toilet dancing and singing for, with, and as, you. Look again.

Crazy talk from a raindrop.
Gassho
Lisa
sat today
on the toilet and everywhere

[Jishin]

Hey crazy talk,

Form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Sure. But I still need to shit somewhere.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Byokan]

Hey crazy talk,

Form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Sure. But I still need to shit somewhere.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Do it with a smile, my friend.

54c75067b01c0.jpg

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Jishin]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Ryan379]

Perhaps a toilet is just a toilet, crapping is just crapping and bowing is just bowing, with no significance other than what we project onto them?

As Jishin says; we all need somewhere to crap. Rather the toilet than the sofa!

Gassho

Ryan

Sat Today

[Byokan]

...I have been contemplating putting every fiber of my being Into the practice, but have been hesitant because I don't know if its necessary or not. Even today I bowed to a toilet I was about to clean at work, but almost felt as though I shouldn't have to because "I'm just a layman".

I have met some Buddhists in my lifetime who live as though their home is a monestary, and I have met those who treat the practice casually (but not without seriousness).

What is the way way? I'd sure like to....

Hi Kyle,

I got all ecstatic about the potty and forgot what I originally wanted to say in response to your question. Just this: practice your own practice. Sit your own sit. Live your own life. No two people ever walked through the same dharma gate.

You're asking what is necessary? Necessary for what? To get to... enlightenment, or Buddhahood, or nirvana, or some other spiritual destination or state? In fact, you cannot go to IT, no matter how hard you try. IT is already here, and expressing ITself through/as you. All Buddhism does is help us remove obstacles and impediments to let IT flow freely, naturally. If monastic life helps you to remove obstacles, then live monastically. If practicing in the “normal” world helps you to remove obstacles, then practice in the “normal” world. Neither is better, and each is right in its own time. Living gently, cultivating awareness and compassion, walking the Eightfold Path, practicing the Precepts, wherever and however you live, are all ways to remove obstacles. Doing these things, your life and your actions will come to express the Buddha/Dharma/Truth more authentically, more appropriately. Your actions, and “every fiber of your being,” will align with your true Buddha nature.

Ok, um, actually, there aren’t really any obstacles. But we have to realize this, once, again, and 10,000 times.

Or not. I don’t know anything, this is just my current understanding; hopefully you will find something useful in it.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

p.s. Ryan, yes I agree, the toilet, the zafu, and the sofa are all the same, and yet, should never be confused. Crap happy!

[Jundo]

Lovely. A lot of wisdom on this bathroom wall.

**

Gassho, J

** Although images like that can get you in trouble in some places. Buddhism comes in many beautiful varieties, suited to varied practitioners. Chan/Zen folks always tended to be respectful and irreverent at once, finding the Sacred which shines through both sacred and irreverent.

Buddha Toilet In France Causes International Fracas
http://gadling.com/2013/03/07/buddha...tional-fracas/

[Jishin]

His hair looks like a bunch of little turds.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Geika]

I see no reason why not to live in monastery or retreat-like fashion, walking in shashu around the house, bowing, wearing the rakusu, chanting, etc. I also don't do that sometimes. It's usually when I am alone or doing housework, but I try to wear the robe even if not wearing it.

Gassho, sat today