No Water, No Moon

[Mp]

Hello everyone,

I came across this wonderful talk about a poem that was written by a Zen Nun named Chiyono (Mugai Nyodai) called, "No Water, No Moon. Enjoy!

With this practice as my companion, I have only to go about my daily life, practicing day and night. ~ Chiyono

http://www.northcountrypublicradio.o...r-no-moon-quot

Here also is a nice little write up as well. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Kyonin]

Thank you Shingen!

Everything is interconnected indeed.

Beautiful story

Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

[Washin]

Thank you Shingen, beautiful.
I love the story of Lady Chiyo.

Gassho,
Sergey
sat-today

[Jundo]

Thank you, Shingen.

I am always reminded of Master Dogen's very beautiful take on this from the Genjo ...

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachin...GenjoKoan8.htm

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Mp]

Thank you, Shingen.

I am always reminded of Master Dogen's very beautiful take on this from the Genjo ...

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachin...GenjoKoan8.htm

Gassho, J

SatToday

Yes, beautiful words indeed Jundo. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Banto]

Thank you Shingen just listened. You mentioned a write up but I'm not seeing it on the link you have of the audio. Maybe it doesn't show on tapatalk or I might be just overlooking it?
Gassho
Rodney #sattoday


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[Kyonin]

Hi Jundo,

It's funny, but I have been thinking about this lately. The first thing that comes to mind is fractals in nature. Every point of a fractal branch contains the information required to create a new branch, exactly the same as the point it comes to. This leads to an infinity of patterns and replication (reflections?) of the original and it's environment.

Could it be that Dogen felt the sacredness in nature and its fractal patterns?

Oh look, it's a Treeleaf!



Gassho,

Kyonin
#SatToday

Thank you, Shingen.

I am always reminded of Master Dogen's very beautiful take on this from the Genjo ...

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.


Gassho, J

SatToday

[Jeremy]

Thank you Shingen just listened. You mentioned a write up but I'm not seeing it on the link you have of the audio. Maybe it doesn't show on tapatalk or I might be just overlooking it?
Gassho
Rodney #sattoday

I guess this is a different write up from the one Shingen mentioned, but I enjoy this commentary:
http://www.lionsroar.com/reflections...water-no-moon/
which interprets the story as being about letting go of things or allowing things to fall apart.

step lightly... stay free...
Jeremy
sattoday

[Mp]

Thank you Shingen just listened. You mentioned a write up but I'm not seeing it on the link you have of the audio. Maybe it doesn't show on tapatalk or I might be just overlooking it?
Gassho
Rodney #sattoday


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Jeremy actually posted the one I was mentioning, but didn't paste in. Thank you Jeremy and Rodney. =)

http://www.lionsroar.com/reflections...water-no-moon/

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Jakuden]

Thank you Shingen, this is beautiful.

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Banto]

'Hearing the words “with this and that” I felt the exhaustion of years of vigilance, all aimed at protecting my idea of myself'

Interesting. I can relate to pieces of this, the scramble to keep it together. Letting go of self in relation and contrast to patching with bamboo.

But in this story, is the moon our suffering?

Gassho,
Rodney #sattoday


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[Risho]

Thank you Shingen

Rodney, that is a good question --> the moon is typically associated with enlightenment. The narrator mentions this in the audio, and you'll see it in Zen symbolism quite a bit. I think, and I want to try to answer your question because I have the same question in a way.... I think that the moon being reflected in the water is an image of the self. The self is in that bucket, and it reflects the moonlight - or it is enlightened. But I think that the nun was trying to grasp for enlightenment as something outside of herself. And to be honest, who doesn't come to practice looking for something. But when the bottom of the bucket fell out, no more moon in the water -- no more separation.. beyond form and emptiness, beyond self and other, just this.

What is just this?!

Dogen's famous question: we are already enlightened, so why do we need to practice? We practice because that is the activity of an enlightened being; it's an expression of who and what we all are; it is the path and the goal and everything here and now. We practice to practice, not as a means to grasp toward some thing out there called enlightenment. It's like if you saw someone on the street and asked them directions to planet Earth. Or in the Sandokai, "Walking forward in the way, you draw no nearer progress no farther".

But even though we don't gain anything, that dropping of gain and loss, that ability to be pulled by thoughts, but then to "VOOMP" back again over and over is something very, very special.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...LLY-HOLY-WHOLE

If you are not practicing to gain enlightenment. If this life, here and now is Nirvana. If all of the ups and downs, when we are in pain, when we face death, this is paradise. That is a very, very special way of living. It's like jumping into life without regret. And feeling like shit, but not worrying about feeling like shit. Allowing it, but still having that underlying stillness that it's ok; it's ok to not be ok.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Mp]

Thank you Shingen

Rodney, that is a good question --> the moon is typically associated with enlightenment. The narrator mentions this in the audio, and you'll see it in Zen symbolism quite a bit. I think, and I want to try to answer your question because I have the same question in a way.... I think that the moon being reflected in the water is an image of the self. The self is in that bucket, and it reflects the moonlight - or it is enlightened. But I think that the nun was trying to grasp for enlightenment as something outside of herself. And to be honest, who doesn't come to practice looking for something. But when the bottom of the bucket fell out, no more moon in the water -- no more separation.. beyond form and emptiness, beyond self and other, just this.

What is just this?!

Dogen's famous question: we are already enlightened, so why do we need to practice? We practice because that is the activity of an enlightened being; it's an expression of who and what we all are; it is the path and the goal and everything here and now. We practice to practice, not as a means to grasp toward some thing out there called enlightenment. It's like if you saw someone on the street and asked them directions to planet Earth. Or in the Sandokai, "Walking forward in the way, you draw no nearer progress no farther".

But even though we don't gain anything, that dropping of gain and loss, that ability to be pulled by thoughts, but then to "VOOMP" back again over and over is something very, very special.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...LLY-HOLY-WHOLE

If you are not practicing to gain enlightenment. If this life, here and now is Nirvana. If all of the ups and downs, when we are in pain, when we face death, this is paradise. That is a very, very special way of living. It's like jumping into life without regret. And feeling like shit, but not worrying about feeling like shit. Allowing it, but still having that underlying stillness that it's ok; it's ok to not be ok.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Wonderful answer Risho, thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Jiken]

Well said.

Gassho

Jiken


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[Jundo]

Wonderful answer Risho, thank you. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

I concur. Ya know, folks have the idea that in Zen, one is not supposed to offer too clear explanation of these things. The reason is to keep us from getting too hung up on the idea, and the intellectual & philosophical understanding alone ... as opposed to the understanding down to the bones where to bucket drops out. That is wise.

However, sometimes a clear explanation is clearly wonderful too. Lovely and also wise. Without a bucket filled with clear water, we would thirst for the moon. Thank you Risho.

Gassho, Jundo

SatToday

[Risho]

My question was just that my understanding was on the right track. I wouldnt have a modicum of practice without this sangha and your teaching Jundo ( yes, im getting corny )

This is going in the chant book "Without a bucket filled with clear water, we would thirst for the moon. "

Gassho

Risho
-sattoday

[Banto]

Risho thank you for writing that. I thought we were to go from turbulent water to still water and then to be the moon in the dew drop. Without the water and thus no moon sounded more like a cessation of enlightenment.
Perhaps some day these stories will make more sense to me. And perhaps not. It is all well
For now, there is sitting
Gassho
Rodney SatToday


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[Jundo]

Risho thank you for writing that. I thought we were to go from turbulent water to still water and then to be the moon in the dew drop. Without the water and thus no moon sounded more like a cessation of enlightenment.
Perhaps some day these stories will make more sense to me. And perhaps not. It is all well
For now, there is sitting
Gassho
Rodney SatToday


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I actually just came across some quotes by Yasutani Roshi on this ...

Yasutani says that the mind of a buddha “is like water that is calm, deep, and crystal clear, and upon which the ‘moon of truth’ reflects fully and perfectly.” The buddha clearly perceives the truth. “The mind of the ordinary man, on the other hand, is like murky water, constantly being churned by the gales of delusive thought and no longer able to reflect the moon of truth.” Yasutani is quick to note that “the moon nonetheless shines down upon the waves”—the truth is still there, one’s original enlightenment is still there—but the churning, muddy waters keep the ordinary being from perceiving that truth. ...

So how do we perceive the truth? “How can we fully illumine our life and personality with the moon of truth?” Yasutani answers, “We need first to purify this water, to calm the surging waves by halting the winds of discursive thought.” The winds must be stilled. “Once they abate, the waves subside, the muddiness clears, and we perceive directly that the moon of truth has never ceased shining.”

The point, however, is that the Moon is always present seen or unseen. So, I disagree with Yasutani a little if he means we must always have a perfectly still mind in order to find Buddha Mind. The Mind of Buddha is truly present in both the calm and in the murk. To the Wise Eye, All is Calm amid both motion and stillness.

Yasutani said we sometimes need to still the waters to see the Moon. Sometimes it is good to do so, so we sit letting thoughts go without stirring up, and letting the waters calm in Zazen. However, Dogen reminded us that, to the wise eye, the moon can be seen in every wave and ripple and drop of life, reflected endlessly. Right in the complexity of life, the moon is always shining.

Right when the bucket drops out in life and your pants and shoes get all wet ... Buddha.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Banto]

Clear water reflecting the moon and moon to be seen in the ripples too make sense to me, .... Until the bottom falling out and there is no more water, clear or rippled, makes it seems like consciousness stops.
Hmmm

Moon always present though yes.
Thanks all for the discussion
Gassho
Rodney SatToday


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[Jundo]

.... makes it seems like consciousness stops.
Hmmm

Oh no. How can one appreciate the moon then!? The moon shines even for the man in the coma or coffin, but better to be awake and alive!

The bucket dropping out is simply that we get soaked to the marrow in Moonlight.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Ongen]

one of my absolute favourite stories

Thank you Shingen

Gassho
Ongen

Sat Today

[Jishin]

I don't understand this story/koan/moon/water/bucket bs. And that's ok.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

I don't understand this story/koan/moon/water/bucket bs. And that's ok.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

Almost spit my water all over the keyboard...!! LOL!!

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[CK732]

Thank you Shingen

Metta

Gassho

Clarisse Sat2Day


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[Matt]

Great story. Thanks for posting, Shingen.

For more stories with women in Zen, the book Women of the Way by Sallie Tisdale is a good one.

Gassho,
Matt
#SatToday

[Mp]

Great story. Thanks for posting, Shingen.

For more stories with women in Zen, the book Women of the Way by Sallie Tisdale is a good one.

Gassho,
Matt
#SatToday

Thanks Matt, I will have a look in that book. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Hogo]

Enjoyable story, and thread.
Thank you.
Gassho
Hogo.
Sat today

[Tai Shi]

I take a lot of medicines, some to keep my life going, some to let the pain subside. For me water is the elixir of life. Every doctor, some women, say I must always have water with me. In a way, water is my friend, and in the 5th precept, I've learned that water is the substance of enlightenment because it dispels strong drink, and as I beheld this beautiful woman finding herself through a pale of water in which the moon is reflected, I believe that Jundo has observed the words of Master Dogen, that one does not really touch the other. But I know how important water is, as I think of the tides caused by the moon for the oceans out of which we all came. Elgwyn, sat today, Gassho _/|\_

[Jishin]

Hi,

I drink water when I am thirsty. But sometimes I drink green tea or diet cokes but I try to drink mostly water because I think it's better for you.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Byokan]

Thank you Shingen

Rodney, that is a good question --> the moon is typically associated with enlightenment. The narrator mentions this in the audio, and you'll see it in Zen symbolism quite a bit. I think, and I want to try to answer your question because I have the same question in a way.... I think that the moon being reflected in the water is an image of the self. The self is in that bucket, and it reflects the moonlight - or it is enlightened. But I think that the nun was trying to grasp for enlightenment as something outside of herself. And to be honest, who doesn't come to practice looking for something. But when the bottom of the bucket fell out, no more moon in the water -- no more separation.. beyond form and emptiness, beyond self and other, just this.

What is just this?!

Dogen's famous question: we are already enlightened, so why do we need to practice? We practice because that is the activity of an enlightened being; it's an expression of who and what we all are; it is the path and the goal and everything here and now. We practice to practice, not as a means to grasp toward some thing out there called enlightenment. It's like if you saw someone on the street and asked them directions to planet Earth. Or in the Sandokai, "Walking forward in the way, you draw no nearer progress no farther".

But even though we don't gain anything, that dropping of gain and loss, that ability to be pulled by thoughts, but then to "VOOMP" back again over and over is something very, very special.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...LLY-HOLY-WHOLE

If you are not practicing to gain enlightenment. If this life, here and now is Nirvana. If all of the ups and downs, when we are in pain, when we face death, this is paradise. That is a very, very special way of living. It's like jumping into life without regret. And feeling like shit, but not worrying about feeling like shit. Allowing it, but still having that underlying stillness that it's ok; it's ok to not be ok.

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

Risho,

wow, this is brilliantly clear, thank you so much. And thanks Shingen for sharing this story.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Banto]

So the bottom of our buckets should fall out?
Rodney <dunce> #sattoday


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[Jundo]

So the bottom of our buckets should fall out?
Rodney <dunce> #sattoday

When the bottom of the bucket falls out, all attachments and barriers drop away.

As Uchiyama Roshi wrote in one of his death poems ...

Simply the water of the whole Universe has been ladled into a bucket
The water does not disappear because it has been scattered over the ground
It is only that the water of the whole Universe has been emptied into the whole Universe

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post167887

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Banto]

Thank you Jundo. I guess where I was getting hung up was the moon was one with the water when the water was in the bucket, so it seemed like separation happened after it broke. Then I wondered the dropping of the water is what made her realize they were together (because now they're not).
I appreciate that Uchiyama poem. This line stood out to me: The life of the whole Universe has been ladled into the hardened "idea" called "I"
Gassho,
Rodney SatToday

[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo. I guess where I was getting hung up was the moon was one with the water when the water was in the bucket, so it seemed like separation happened after it broke. Then I wondered the dropping of the water is what made her realize they were together (because now they're not).
I appreciate that Uchiyama poem. This line stood out to me: The life of the whole Universe has been ladled into the hardened "idea" called "I"
Gassho,
Rodney SatToday

Now maybe feel the meaning more, intellectualize the meaning less.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Banto]

Sound advice, yes thank you much.
Happy Thanksgiving all, much gratitude
Gassho
RodneySatToday


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