Is the cosmic mudra important?

[SoR]

Hi all,

For the six years that I've practiced Zen, I've never quite found having my hands on the cosmic mudra to be very comfortable (it hurts my shoulders). It's a bit better if I put some kind of cushion under my hands, but never as comfortable as simply resting my hands on my knees.

I sometimes "cheat" and put my hands on my knees for a few minutes then switch back. I'd honestly rather just keep my hands on my knees the whole time. Does the hand position really matter?

-Sam

#SatToday

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[Kokuu]

Hi Sam

In my opinion being comfortable is more important than having the right mudra. After all, people sit on a chair with hands on their thighs, and hands on knees is not an uncommon way of sitting in other traditions.

Some yoga bods may tell you that the mudra produces some kind of energetic effect but, personally, I don't buy it. There have been debates about which hand goes on top of the other and how much pressure there should be between the thumbs but I have sat in different positions and not noticed any difference in how the sit goes.

Others may know better. Juki probably has the yoga low-down on it.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Juki]

Juki probably has the yoga low-down on it.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

Kokuu and Sam: the truth of the matter is that there is no yoga "low down." In yoga, there are about a dozen different mudras taught to students, but most find it most comfortable to sit with their hands on their knees (often with palms turned upward and thumb and first finger gently touching in a circle). This being said, when I am in a yoga class and the teacher adds a seated meditation session, I turn to the wall and sit in our tradition, with the cosmic mudra.

In yoga, when we do get close, it is to use the Dhyana mudra (left hand on the bottom). But I always fall back on the article written by Koun Franz about "sitting in practice" versus "sitting in verification," and I sit in practice. I always sit using the cosmic mudra, because that is our tradition and it is part of Dogen's instructions to us.

As to the shoulder pain, Sam, use a bolster and don't sit with too much tension in your upper back and shoulders.

Gassho,
Juki

#justsattoday!!

[Jishin]

Hi,

Be one with your body like the cosmos is.

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jakuden]

I seem to remember Taigu addressing this question in one of the beginner videos, either in the video itself or in the comments, and he felt that it was important but I don't remember exactly why. I do try to "use" it to focus energy in the "hara" region below the navel and sometimes put persistent thoughts into my left palm to remain there while I sit, both ideas that I gleaned from Zen instruction somewhere, not sure if that's correct though.

Gassho,
Sierra
SatToday

[Juki]

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...t=Verification

Just posting the prior thread from Taigu which links to the Koun Franz discussion I referenced earlier.

Gassho,
Juki
#sattoday

[Myosha]

Hello,

Thank you for the link.

A keeper.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Kyonin]

Hi Sam,

The mudra is quite useful for me and it's pretty comfortable too.

I sit in half lotus, with my right over the left thigh. This puts my heel right in front of my navel and serves as a support for my hands in mudra. This way my shoulders never hurt. Where are you putting your hands?

mudra-kyonin.jpg

And then the mudra is useful because I use it to gauge my attention and concentration. When I sit and cling to a though, my thumbs start to point up. When I am getting too comfortable and start to doze off, my thumbs relax and fall to the palm of my hand. So I let go, correct the thumbs and get back to zazen.

Hope this helps.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Mp]

Thank you for the question Sam. Some great answers and Juki gave a good link with Taigu. From my experience, when folks have discomfort in their shoulders, it is because they are carrying tension in their shoulders, nothing to do with the hand mudra. Taigu has talked about putting a cushion under the hands to help take the weight off the shoulders, but play with it; adjust the body, allow the shoulders to roll back and down naturally. Sometimes just little tweaks here and there can make a big difference.

Hope this helps. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Joyo]

I sometimes sit in the traditional Soto Zen way and sometimes not; I've found both do not have much affect on my zazen. I agree with Kokuu that being comfortable is the most important thing. However, if you are having pain in your shoulder you could also try being mindful of that area while sitting and trying to relax those muscles. The mudra can make my neck sore, but I've noticed this is not actually the mudra, it's my tense shoulders forcing myself into the mudra that is the problem. Once my shoulders are relaxed, the mudra is no longer painful.


Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jundo]

Some very interesting comments here. I will just offer a few more without being too insistent here ...

Well, first, very rarely, I have heard someone try to offer some very traditional justification such as "Qi/Energy Flow directions", and focusing energy in the "Hara" (the Qi center down that way). However, it is very rare to hear anything like that from modern teachers these days, especially in the west. Also, it is a Mudra, and some people do tend to emphasize esoteric elements. The general meaning is that the roundness is the completeness, the emptiness of the whole cosmos ... thus the name "Cosmic Mudra."

I can usually tell how someone's Zazen is going by how well they maintain that eggy roundness while sitting. "Sagging thumbs, sagging mind" is my moto!

But why do we sit sit way ... Hmmmm. It is Soto Tradition, that's why! Also, ya gotta do something with the hands, why not that? Many Rinzai folks tend to wrap around the thumb as here ...



What should you do? Hmmmm. It is supposed to be comfortable, and rest in the lap. Use a small cushion or towel in your lap for the hands to rest on if you cannot get them to sit comfortable.

I have seen folks carry their hands high, oalmost in the air up by the bottof the ribs, but I do not recommend that. It tires my shoulders and arms.

If you really really cannot get comfortable, then maybe but your hands some other comfortable way. However, try the cushion suggestion first.

[SoR]

Thank you to everyone for their responses!

-Sam

#SatToday

[Heion]

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...t=Verification

Just posting the prior thread from Taigu which links to the Koun Franz discussion I referenced earlier.

Gassho,
Juki
#sattoday

Thank you very much for sharing this. It elucidates a lot of the key points of our practice.

Gassho,
Heion

#sattoday

[Ongen]

Hi All,

For ages I was unable to hold the mudra simply because I had problems (RSI) with the tendons in my wrist. Now I don't have those problems anymore, when I'm 'teaching' the zen intro course at our local zendo I always hold the mudra because I feel it helps to focus, just like any part of the proper posture does, especially when people are just starting to learn how to sit. Personally I usually sit like the example Jundo provided above, with folded thumbs. Still, when the monkey is particularly restless, I feel holding the mudra helps me to calm it down faster

Gassho

Ongen
Sat Today

[jake]

Ah, yet another similarity between Black Elk and Zen- beautiful instructions Jundo!

'Everything an Indian does is in a circle, and that is because the power of the world always works in circles, and everything tries to be round.'

'The sky is round, and I have heard that the earth is round like a ball, and so are all the stars. The wind, in its greatest power whirls. Birds make their nest in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours. The sun comes forth and goes down again in a circle. The moon does the same and both are round. Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing, and always come back again to where they were.'

Namaste and peace
Metta to all,
j

thank you so much for this thread

hehe, good 'ol round emptiness

[Jishin]

Black Elk

Hi Jake,

What is your attachment to Black Elk?

Gassho, Jishin, Sat Today

[jake]

This seems a bit silly! I'm sharing his words because he's very beautiful and wise, and very similar to Zen!!!

Namaste , Peace and Loving-kindness!!!!!!

jake

[Jishin]

Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Byokan]

(...) 'Everything an Indian does is in a circle, and that is because the power of the world always works in circles, and everything tries to be round.'

'The sky is round, and I have heard that the earth is round like a ball, and so are all the stars. The wind, in its greatest power whirls. Birds make their nest in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours. The sun comes forth and goes down again in a circle. The moon does the same and both are round. Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing, and always come back again to where they were.'(...)
hehe, good 'ol round emptiness

Love it! Thank you jake.

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Jinyo]

Serendipity - just been reading Emerson's essay on circles today

http://www.emersoncentral.com/circles.htm

Gassho

Willow

sat today

[Jundo]

[COLOR=#252525][FONT=sans-serif]'The sky is round, and I have heard that the earth is round like a ball, and so are all the stars. The wind, in its greatest power whirls. Birds make their nest in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours. The sun comes forth and goes down again in a circle. The moon does the same and both are round. Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing, and always come back again to where they were.'

Lovely. Squares, triangles, flat tires, sharp nails and whatever this is are also always roundly roundlessly round.

Dogen from the Genjo ...

Enlightenment is like the moon reflected on the water. The moon does not get wet, nor is the water broken. Although its light is wide and great, the moon is reflected even in a puddle an inch wide. The whole moon and the entire sky are reflected in dewdrops on the grass, or even in one drop of water. Enlightenment does not divide you, just as the moon does not break the water. You cannot hinder enlightenment, just as a drop of water does not hinder the moon in the sky. The depth of the drop is the height of the moon. Each reflection, however long or short its duration, manifests the vastness of the dewdrop, and realizes the limitlessness of the moonlight in the sky.

When dharma does not fill your whole body and mind, you think it is already sufficient. When dharma fills your body and mind, you understand that something is missing. For example, when you sail out in a boat to the middle of an ocean where no land is in sight, and view the four directions, the ocean looks circular, and does not look any other way. But the ocean is neither round nor square; its features are infinite in variety. It is like a palace. It is like a jewel. It only looks circular as far as you can see at that time. All things are like this.

Though there are many features in the dusty world and the world beyond conditions, you see and understand only what your eye of practice can reach. In order to learn the nature of the myriad things, you must know that although they may look round or square, the other features of oceans and mountains are infinite in variety; whole worlds are there. It is so not only around you, but also directly beneath your feet, or in a drop of water.

Gassho, J

SatToday on a Round Cushion

[TimF]

Hi Sam,

The mudra is quite useful for me and it's pretty comfortable too.

I sit in half lotus, with my right over the left thigh. This puts my heel right in front of my navel and serves as a support for my hands in mudra. This way my shoulders never hurt. Where are you putting your hands?

mudra-kyonin.jpg

And then the mudra is useful because I use it to gauge my attention and concentration. When I sit and cling to a though, my thumbs start to point up. When I am getting too comfortable and start to doze off, my thumbs relax and fall to the palm of my hand. So I let go, correct the thumbs and get back to zazen.

Hope this helps.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Just looking at that picture makes my legs cry out in protest.

I'm with you in that my thumbs are a 'gauge' for me when I sit. Mine don't rise as yours do when clinging to a thought, but rather they push in tight, with one nail sliding under the other. When they come apart...well, let's just say that it usually means that if I were in a monastery I would need a whack on the back with a stick!

Gassho,
Tim

Sat today

[Kakunen]

Cosmic mudra is very important. That is a sign of our good Zazen.When we make cosmic mudra,lower body is stable,become comfort shoulder. I saw someone use corset for cosmic mudra.That is not good.Please sit naturally and respect our basic. Gassho.


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