No need for reverence?

[seeker242]

So I was reading the Bloodstream Sermon earlier. This part struck me as interesting.

Our nature is the mind. And the mind is our nature. This nature is the same as the mind of all Buddhas. Buddhas of the past and future only transmit this mind. Beyond this mind there’s no Buddha anywhere. But deluded people don’t realize that their own mind is the Buddha. They keep searching outside. They never stop invoking Buddhas or worshiping Buddhas and wondering Where is the buddha? Don’t indulge in such illusions. Just know your mind. Beyond your mind there’s no other Buddha. The sutras say, "Everything that has form is an illusion." They also say, "Wherever you are, there’s a Buddha." Your mind is the Buddha. Don’t use a Buddha to worship a Buddha.

Even if a Buddha or Bodhisattva should suddenly appear before you, there’s no need for reverence. This mind of ours is empty and contains no such form. Those who hold onto appearances are devils. They fall from the Path. Why worship illusions born of the mind?

Those who worship don’t know, and those who know don’t worship. By worshiping you come under the spell of devils. I point this out because I'm afraid you’re unaware of it. The basic nature of a Buddha has no such form. Keep this in mind, even if something unusual should appear. Don’t embrace it, and don’t fear it, and don’t doubt that your Mind is basically pure. Where could there be room for any such form? Also, at the appearance of spirits, demons, or divine conceive neither respect nor fear. Your mind is basically empty. All appearances are illusions. Don’t hold on to appearances. If you envision a Buddha, a Dharma, or a Bodhisattva and conceive respect for them, you relegate yourself to the realm of mortals. If you seek direct understanding, don’t hold on to any appearance whatsoever, and you’ll succeed. I have no other advice. The sutras say, "All appearances are illusions." They have no fixed existence, no constant form. They’re impermanent. Don’t cling to appearances and you’ll be of one mind with the Buddha. The sutras say, "’That which is free of all form is the Buddha."

But why shouldn’t we worship Buddhas and Bodhisattvas?

Devils and demons possess the power of manifestation. They can create the appearance of bodhisattvas in all sorts of guises. But they’re false. None of them are Buddhas. The Buddha is your own mind. Don’t misdirect your worship.

It sounds to me that giving respect, reverence, etc. to the teaching and the teachers, is contradictory to the above advice. Is it not? It clearly says "If you envision a Buddha, a Dharma, or a Bodhisattva and conceive respect for them, you relegate yourself to the realm of mortals."

But isn't that exactly what we do with the teachings and the teachers who teach them?

[Kokuu]

Hi Seeker

There is a saying from the Tibetan teaching 'Seven Points of Training the Mind' which says "Don’t turn gods into demons". In my opinion, this seems to be what Bodhidharma is getting at here.

I don't think there is anything wrong with having reverence for Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and teachers. However, if we start to worship them as an end in itself, rather than as exemplars of what we ourselves are and how we should behave then we have missed the point. Buddha and enlightenment are merely ideas in our head and we need to let them go in order to face life just as it is in this moment. It is not for nothing that Linji said "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." He is referring to our conceptual ideas of what Buddhahood is rather than the actual Buddha.

Conversely, should we be respectful to our teachers and elders and have gratitude for the teachings of the Buddha and numerous dharma ancestors? I believe we should. However, we should not mistake our own ideas of what they are like for who they really are and what the path is. Thoughts are just thoughts, not reality (the old 'finger pointing at the moon is not the moon' teaching). Also we should be careful of not clinging to teachers for salvation as they are human too and will not always be there for us. Seeing reality face-to-face is the only thing that will free us.

During Bodhidharma's time it is probable that people were engaged in the worship of spirits and gods. I imagine that this sermon is also a warning against approaching Buddhas and ancestors in the same way - as deities who you can beseech for favours.

Anyway, that is my take on it. There are others which may well be closer to the truth.


Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Joyo]

Thank you, Kokuu, for the very interesting and helpful post.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Mp]

I don't think there is anything wrong with having reverence for Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and teachers. However, if we start to worship them as an end in itself, rather than as exemplars of what we ourselves are and how we should behave then we have missed the point. Buddha and enlightenment are merely ideas in our head and we need to let them go in order to face life just as it is in this moment.

I really like and agree with this part, thank you Kokuu. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Myosha]

Hello,

"If you envision a Buddha, a Dharma, or a Bodhisattva and conceive respect for them, you relegate yourself to the realm of mortals."


So . . . don't "envision" . . . realize the Buddha, the Dharma, the Bodhisattva; self-reverence stops at ego.




Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Rich]

He says don't respect them. The whole notion of respect implies that you are less than. How can you be less than when you are a Buddha. Instead of fearing or respecting; love and accept.

SAT today

[Jundo]

Lovely what Kokuu expressed.

(By the way, historians are now pretty sure that the Bloodstream Sermon was not actually written by Bodhidharma, but by someone much later)

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...oxhead&f=false

In any case, reminds me of the story of burning the Buddha statues on a cold night, or selling it to feed the poor.

http://www.purifymind.com/StoryBuddhaStatue.htm

Sometimes, I replace the Buddha on the altar with a coke bottle, empty space, a flower or a picture of George Bush/Bin Laden after 9-11.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ll=1#post27423

And yet, on most days those other priests and me honor that very same Buddha statue with bows. Why? Because that very same Buddha statue is a reMINDer ... even embodies (as does all the universe and all reality) that very same "MIND" of the Bloodstream Sermon. Is this "MIND" limited to inside or outside you or not you?

When I bow, I bow with gratitude ... for all of life (both the good and bad by small human eyes), for all the world, for this Path. As I write about bowing and full Prostrations for our Rohatsu Retreat ...

Many Westerners don't care for it, because it is not part of our culture generally. We see it as humiliating, embarrassing, somehow "idol worshipping" or undemocratic. I am often asked to whom or what we are bowing ... Is it to some thing, god, place like Mecca, person or effigy?

I answer by saying that there is nothing that's true that is omitted from our bow. We might consider that we're simply bowing to the whole universe, and to ourself and the other people around us … after all, 'All is One'! The hands, palms upwards, are raised in a gesture traditionally symbolic of lifting the Buddha's feet over one's head, but that truly means lifting all things of the universe over one's head as the world lifts us.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post143300

Another example might be the President of the United States in the US: Sure, in one sense, he is just a common citizen among citizens like you or me. One of us. Yet, one might stand when he or she walks in the room out of respect for who and what he embodies.

So, I bet you the author of the Bloodstream Sermon, whoever he was, also bowed down to Buddha Statues like almost all of the old monks. Zen folks have a lovely way of talking out of both sides of their no sided mouth.

Gassho, J

SatToday

[Chiko]

It reminds me of the eightfold path, how it can be viewed as prescriptive: "here is a set of rules to follow in order to wake up." Or it can be seen as descriptive: "here are the behaviors that a buddha demonstrates naturally. In the same way, the text above is a reminder that teachers are people just like us, and at the same time shows us that a buddha might regard everything as a teaching, without hierarchy.

[seeker242]

It is not for nothing that Linji said "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." He is referring to our conceptual ideas of what Buddhahood is rather than the actual Buddha.

I would agree. If you have already killed the Buddha then the above passage would no longer be applicable. Although, he also said "Kill your teachers". Does that mean we should put Jundo's head on the chopping block? And then go sharpen the katana for the impending decapitation?

He says don't respect them. The whole notion of respect implies that you are less than. How can you be less than when you are a Buddha. Instead of fearing or respecting; love and accept.

SAT today

Yes, that's what I was thinking of. Although, it seems quite natural for a student to think they are less than the teacher. After all, the teacher is the teacher for a reason. They don't just hand out "dharma transmission" to just anyone. At least they aren't supposed to! But, if you don't really understand the teaching, how can you think of yourself as a Buddha, without becoming arrogant or perhaps conceited would be a better word? I mean, if you are a Buddha, then you should be able to understand all the sutras no problem.

Lovely what Kokuu expressed.

(By the way, historians are now pretty sure that the Bloodstream Sermon was not actually written by Bodhidharma, but by someone much later)

Either way, still a good one I think.

The fat guy would laugh at you or give you a tasty snack if you showed him reverence

I'm betting he would probably do the same even if you punched him in the face.

[Rich]

I would agree. If you have already killed the Buddha then the above passage would no longer be applicable. Although, he also said "Kill your teachers". Does that mean we should put Jundo's head on the chopping block? And then go sharpen the katana for the impending decapitation?



Yes, that's what I was thinking of. Although, it seems quite natural for a student to think they are less than the teacher. After all, the teacher is the teacher for a reason. They don't just hand out "dharma transmission" to just anyone. At least they aren't supposed to! But, if you don't really understand the teaching, how can you think of yourself as a Buddha, without becoming arrogant or perhaps conceited would be a better word? I mean, if you are a Buddha, then you should be able to understand all the sutras no problem.



Either way, still a good one I think.



I'm betting he would probably do the same even if you punched him in the face.

Is your name seeker or did I miss it?
Do you sit zazen?

it makes a difference in how I respond.

SAT today

[FaithMoon]

This thread brings to mind the story of the Bodhisattva Never-Disparaging. He bowed to everyone, saying "I would never disparage you! You too will become Buddha! See http://nichiren.info/buddhism/lotuss...xt/chap20.html for Burton Watson's translation (Chapter 20 of the Lotus Sutra).

Faith-Moon
sat today

[seeker242]

Is your name seeker or did I miss it?
Do you sit zazen?

it makes a difference in how I respond.

SAT today

Hi Rich! Yes, I've been sitting zazen since 1993 or so. Although, I admit that is has not been for 8,030 consecutive days. That would be extraordinary for any practitioner I would think.

This thread brings to mind the story of the Bodhisattva Never-Disparaging. He bowed to everyone, saying "I would never disparage you! You too will become Buddha! See http://nichiren.info/buddhism/lotuss...xt/chap20.html for Burton Watson's translation (Chapter 20 of the Lotus Sutra).

Faith-Moon
sat today

Jeremy's quote about Budai brought to mind the same story! It's a good one!

Sat today