Sitting zazen in a chair

[Joyo]

I may have to start sitting zazen in a chair. My massage therapist recommended this as I have chronic lower back problems that I am always having to manage. She said half lotus is too hard on my sacrum, Burmese was ok, chair is best. Since I spend so much time sitting, I'm thinking the chair is the way to go.

My question is, does anyone else at Treeleaf consistently sit in a chair? Has it affected your zazen at all? What, if any, are your experiences with back problems and sitting Burmese and/or in a chair?

(I find Burmese a bit hard, 15 min. is ok, but anything after that and it starts to hurt my back)

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Hotetsu]

I have scoliosis and have to use a chair on occassion when my back is in pain. I manage to do half lotus most of the time, but use a chair when the need dictates.

Gassho

#SatToday

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[Cumminjd]

I have a problem with ligaments in my knee which prevents me from siting cross legged so I too use a chair! I however sit on the end so my back does not touch the chair. This helps me not get "too comfortable"

Gassho
James
SatToday


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[Roland]

There are many kinds of chairs and sitting furniture: for instance there are saddle chairs and sit balls. Maybe one of those is well suited for meditation?

Gassho

Roland
#SatToday

[Jishin]

Hi,

I have several zafus off different shapes and heights and several seiza benches also. All in the hope of finding the magical sweet spot where there is no pain. No such luck. I use one for a few days then something hurts then I move to something else. I given up on the idea of lotus, half lotus or Burmese. The best I can do is Indian style with pillows supporting each knee or seiza. And anyone who disagrees with the way I sit can...



Gasho, Jishin

#Sat2day seiza with itzy bitzy neck pain, pretty good for a 48 year dude

[Joyo]

I understand that, I sit Burmese on my bed often, with pillows supporting my back. I know this is not the traditional way, but it works. And it's better than lying down, which I find very hard to do as it puts me into zzzzzzazen.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Mp]

Hello Joyo,

Nothing wrong with sitting in a chair if the body is not allowing you to sit on your zafu. Be gentle to yourself. =)

Gassho
Shingen

#sattoday

[Tai Shi]

Hi

I do sit in a chair. I use a wedge shaped cushion designed for sitting in a chair, a wedge thicker in front than back. This allows me to practice "just sitting," Shikantaza without undue attention to my bone disease.

Elgwyn
sat today
Gassho

[Jakugan]

I've had knee problems the last few weeks and had to sit in a chair. I think I prefer to sit cross legged but I have got used to it & don't find that sitting that way would have a negative effect.

gassho,

Simon

sat today

[Jundo]

A balanced, stable, comfortable position is a balanced, stable, comfortable position. Don't overly fetishize sitting cross legged. (more on that here) ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post152636
and
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post113821

That being said, I personally like to sit in the Lotus because I find it, in my case, a balanced, stable, comfortable position. Johnson's fine book recommends finding the (ever changing) right position(s) for you, and that can include a chair ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...ll=1#post31651

Our introductory "How To Sit" guide includes pointers on chair sitting ...

https://sites.google.com/site/jundot...edirects=0&d=1

Gassho, J

SatToday (Burmese)

[GregJanL]

Joyo,

I neither own a zafu nor do I attempt lotus or burmese since it puts too much stress on my knees these days. I use a camp chair with a foldable desk attached to it for some tea. I've been to a few formal sitting sessions and there was always the chair option open.

The biggest thing I found stressed about the functional aspects of good physical posture is making sure you have your back straight with or without the support of a back piece on a chair for one reason, maintaining good airflow, having plenty of space for your diaphragm to do its job allowing unobstructed breathing. It's why 'comfortable, loose fitting clothing' always crops up too, it isn't to fuel attachment to comfort (which is why I suspect some get very sticky on the classic postures) but the necessity to maintain good breathing.

I take it as the middle way between indulgence and deprivation while sitting, making sure the function is being done correctly so you don't hurt yourself or fall asleep from a awkward posture.

I hope this helps you work out the kinks.

Metta,
Greg

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[Rich]

Over the years have sat every which way due to knee, back and neck injuries. Right now a hybrid Burmese half lotus feels best.
The secret to lying zazen is to keep the body cold and the head warm.

SAT today

[Joyo]

Thank you everyone. I've experimented with different ways of sitting this weekend. My back injury isn't something that is going to go away. It's chronic, and therefore, I've got to find thing(s) that work long-term. This thread has given me a lot of ideas and things to try.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Yugen]

For anything beyond two hours or so I am migrating to a seated position as well. My knees and back hurt too much. I find a simple shaker style chair to work well.

As has been so wonderfully said here, a comfortable stable position is a comfortable stable position.

Deep bows
Yugen


sat2day

[Joyo]

For anything beyond two hours or so


sat2day

Wow, I am in awe!! I can't sit longer than about 15 min. on the cushion. Then again, I carried a 9 lb, 3 oz baby, and had 37 hrs of back labour before having an emergency c-section.....I'm guessing you've probably never had to go through that.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Yugen]

Joyo,
I have no conception of pain of that type ...... I could never imagine. Have you seen the video clip hat was going round a year or so ago, where a couple of husbands had e - stim belts put around their waists and increasingly powerful muscular contractions were induced to simulate labor? They were incapacitated with pain.... And it wasn't even back labor......

My wife had 48 hours of back labor with our first son and (before she met me) she was a professional ballerina with Russian teachers - this woman knows more about pain than I ever will!

Puts it all in perspective - nine bows to you!

Yugen


sat2day

[Joyo]

Yugen, your poor wife. I know so well the pain she went through. I have never seen that video. I would never recommend anyone wearing one of those, ouchie!!!!

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Mài]

I also have knee problems and had a replacement about two years ago. I have been sitting for some time now in a chair, but on my zafu: I put it on the edge of the chair. With my feet on the floor I have a stable tripod and have no problem with my old back or knees sitting for an hour or so. The mind of course is another issue.

sat today
Gassho
Mai

[Kakunen]

Hai! Joyo-san!

Always thank you! I am Mr K! Sorry ,, I can not write English well!!

When we sit Zazen,I think that important thing is　make a sacrum straight.
When you feel fine at such way of sitting,maybe that is right way of sitting.

In Antaiji some people at injure,they sit in a chair!

[KellyRok]

Hi Joyo and all,

I do sit in a chair sometimes as well. I don't find it changes my zazen in any negative manner, it just ensures my spine won't dislike me as much when I get up . When I first started sitting, I would sit Burmese, but after pulling my spine out of place multiple times I needed to find a better solution. Because of the curve in my lower lumber region, I'm already badly unbalanced.

So now, I sit seiza on a high mountain seat or I sit on my exercise ball. Have you tried that? I find it is great for keeping your balance without putting unnecessary strain on your back or knees. Because it forces you to use your core to stay balanced, you won't have trouble with falling asleep and it keeps your sacrum straight.

I hope you can find some relief.

Gassho,

Kelly/Jinmei
sattoday

[Kaishin]

I'll second Kelly's recommendation for seiza. I turn a big zafu on its edge to sit on. But here's the key for me--I keep my lower legs on a zabuton, BUT I let my feet hang off the edge. This takes all the pressure off the ankles. Pretty much every position causes me a different sort of pain, so I rotate among several different kinds.

Hope you find some comfort!

-satToday

[Getchi]

Thankyou all for the tips, my wife has cmpacted disc in her spine and I have a pretty ruined knee joint, so im grateful for the ideas here

Im also comforted that the idea for Treeleaf is living so well - a Zendo for all who may be to injured or far from formal sitting groups. Wonderful!

I do recommed seiza chairs personally, though im managing to sit on a cushion half lotus on a few sheepskins, which is nice too!


Gassho
Geoff
SatToday

[chankin]

I do my sitting in a wheelchair. I had my leg off a couple of years ago. As long as I keep my back straight and unsupported it works well.
Colin


sat today

[Joyo]

I do my sitting in a wheelchair. I had my leg off a couple of years ago. As long as I keep my back straight and unsupported it works well.
Colin


sat today

Thank you, Colin. You're dedication is a true inspiration to me.

Well, I'll be honest, for anyone here who could benefit from my experience...my back is so bad I've even found sitting in a chair for extended periods of time difficult. I read through Jundo's post that gave instructions on how to sit with a chair. I used my zafu to support my lower back while I kept my spine straight....and....I was in a lot of pain after sitting through part of zazenkai this past week. So, what I do (which is not the traditional way to sit at all) is to sit on my bed, with my zafu supporting my lower back, my legs are in Burmese, and I still straighten my back. So far, this has been the best. Hope this helps anyone, if they need it.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[broahes]

Thank you, Colin. You're dedication is a true inspiration to me.

Well, I'll be honest, for anyone here who could benefit from my experience...my back is so bad I've even found sitting in a chair for extended periods of time difficult. I read through Jundo's post that gave instructions on how to sit with a chair. I used my zafu to support my lower back while I kept my spine straight....and....I was in a lot of pain after sitting through part of zazenkai this past week. So, what I do (which is not the traditional way to sit at all) is to sit on my bed, with my zafu supporting my lower back, my legs are in Burmese, and I still straighten my back. So far, this has been the best. Hope this helps anyone, if they need it.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

Have you ever tried rotating between sitting and laying vs just sitting. I have a friend with a bad back.. He alternates sitting, standing, and laying.. according to how he feels. He has cut his sessions in half but has twice as many sessions.. Still getting in the same amount of time per day. Just a thought. Is this a permanent situation or something you will be dealing with for a long time to come?

Much healing metta and peace your way Joyo.

Gassho,
Brooks sat today.

[Joyo]

Have you ever tried rotating between sitting and laying vs just sitting. I have a friend with a bad back.. He alternates sitting, standing, and laying.. according to how he feels. He has cut his sessions in half but has twice as many sessions.. Still getting in the same amount of time per day. Just a thought. Is this a permanent situation or something you will be dealing with for a long time to come?

Much healing metta and peace your way Joyo.

Gassho,
Brooks sat today.

Thank you, Brooks, I think I will try your suggestion. I've never thought of alternating, but I do find that being in any position for longer than about 15 min gets uncomfortable.

I don't know if it will always be this bad, but it is long term issue. I had a couple of bad falls off a horse when I was younger, and then I was pregnant with a huge baby 10 years ago and there were complications in labour etc. etc. and my back has never been the same since. I'm getting treatments now from 2 different types of massage therapists, and I've changed my yoga to gentle workouts only so I'm hoping this will provide some relief long-term.

Thank you for your post. Really appreciate it!!

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Seishin the Elder]

What Jundo said......don't fetishize your Zazen practice. It can be done just as "really" on a zafu, on a bench, in a chair, a barcalounger, an Adirondack chair on a porch overlooking a lake (Mmmmmm)....just sit, ....or even walk (Kin Hin) is good too.

Gassho,

Seishin/Kyrill