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Thread: A Buddhist Studies online course: Integrated Dharma

  1. #1
    Member Roland's Avatar
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    Brussels and Antwerp, Belgium

    A Buddhist Studies online course: Integrated Dharma

    Tricycle announces an online course about 'Integrated Dharma': 'Integrated Dharma is a new approach to understanding and embodying the teachings of the Buddha. It is intended to bring contemporary people living in the modern world into very intimate contact with the thoughts and words of the historical Buddha. The approach is respectful of the classical tradition and faithful to the original teachings, but also secular in its orientation and focused more on the practical psychology of Buddhism than upon its religious or metaphysical aspects.'The teacher is Andrew Olendzki. I guess it could be interesting?

    Gassho,
    Roland
    #SatToday

    PS The course is not free but there's a discount for Tricycle-members.
    Last edited by Roland; 07-24-2015 at 11:42 AM.

  2. #2
    Roland,

    I do think that a applicable understanding of how interdepenendent existence and compassion woven with the virtue of neither indulgence nor austerity born from deepening appreciation of impermanence can be touched without a single 'magical' siddhi or skillset not obvious to ones senses.

    That being said there is considerable merit to the notion that the 'paranormal' aspect of Buddhism is just as real and important to grasp and is less paranormal then a normal expression of nature that is touched so rarely these days to make it seem 'wild' and 'paranormal' because it is simply not touched often.

    People used to think a platypus was a made up creature and were bewildered by the novelty of its reality when they saw it, novelty wore off and then it was a common thing like everything else. I'm worried a bit about for example, hell realms being seen exclusively as a mental phenomena with the dismissal that these realms don't have a physical counterpart to be born into. I give a lot of it the benefit of the doubt since so much of Buddhism doesn't amount to nothing that is touchable. It is mildly worrying that things seen more 'religious' are possibly unimportant since they may have no obvious immediate relationship to the 'seen'.

    I don't know the full extent of the impact of the unseen interactions and meaning Buddhism holds but I do greatly value the adoption of a dharma protector practice to help clear 'inner, outer, and secret obstacles' to practice.

    Whatever does happen to Buddhism down the road I hope the functional truth and practices that help develop heart-mind and whatever other required skill sets needed for full Buddhahood do survive both Buddhism going to the west and online like with Treeleaf.

    If you do attend this course, I hope you do share whatever is said that will help peoples practice here flourish.

    Metta,
    Greg

    Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
    A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope. - Dean Koontz

  3. #3
    That being said there is considerable merit to the notion that the 'paranormal' aspect of Buddhism is just as real and important to grasp and is less paranormal then a normal expression of nature that is touched so rarely these days to make it seem 'wild' and 'paranormal' because it is simply not touched often.
    The following is not important except to people interested in such silly things ... the rest can disregard ...


    Hi,

    Mr. Olendski is a good Thervadan/Mindfulness Teacher, although I sometimes feel he is too rooted in those fine Traditions. We need to offer something like this more for the Mahayana.

    I will be talking about this in a couple of weeks on the Secular Buddhist podcast (interview scheduled this weekend). I call our flavor "Religious-Secularism", keeping the best and most profound Teachings of Buddhism while abandoning many of the more superstitious elements. I do not have much trust in the so-called "paranormal", and beyond trust, I have even less need.

    I am working on a draft of what this means now (still rough). Here is a small taste ...

    I wish to offer a flavor of Buddhism which avoids both (1) literal belief in baseless myth, unfounded superstition, primitive magic and historical ignorance, and (2) the opposite extreme of stripping down old teachings and practices to such a degree that the “baby Buddha” is thrown out with the bath water, and many worthwhile and challenging teachings are lost due to being wrongly labeled as myth and magic. Many ancient legends maintain great value even if wholly or partly ahistorical legends, many of our most potent and challenging teachings do not conflict in any way with modern and scientific understanding (in fact, many may be seen as supported by modern discoveries), and many of our most beautiful ancient customs and practices have understandable value and meaning even in this day and age.

    I believe that it is possible to maintain beliefs that are freed of superstition, demanding that there must be some credible evidence and basis to support which claims and suppositions about reality are true. More is demanded than simple blind faith in the assertions of an ancient book or teacher, even the purported words of the Buddha himself (assuming his actual words can even be known). It is time to recognize that many of the beliefs of ancient men and women, even of the Buddha himself, may have been the narrow and ill informed views of people limited to knowledge as it existed in centuries past. For some of us, there is need to discard fictions and foolish suppositions in the light of modern evidence.

    On the other hand, we need not go to excess in rejecting all that is old merely for being old and hard to fathom in ordinary thinking, and we should not make the mistake of turning Buddhism into primarily some form of therapy or relaxation technique robbed of many ancient riches. Thus, I propose that we maintain the best of all possible worlds, what may be called a "Religious Secular Buddhism" which represents one "Third Way" to bridge some issues and difficulties facing Buddhism in the West.

    ..... [For example] We might maintain incense simply for its role in creating a psychological state of removal from worldly concerns in a certain space and time through the olfactory sense. One might maintain a statue or painting or old legend (even while recognizing that the story may have no legitimate historical foundation) as a reminder of a certain teacher or valid teaching or imparted truth. ...

    On the other hand, we might jetison other claims and beliefs [such as in prayer services and the magic incantations known as "Dharani"] as baseless beliefs primarily employed as a kind of magic incantation absent showing of some other role or proof or real worldly effect. (We might recognize the retention of some practices for placebo effect, which has been show to actually exist and be a recognized too). We might abandon or remain skeptically agnostic on mechanical views of "rebirth" for lack of proof, and also out of a belief that such a system is not central to forms of Buddhism centered on "this world" practice here and now.

    We continue to call this "religion" only in the narrow sense of being a teaching of the sacred and wondrous in all of life, combined with a willingness to look beyond many of our common sense assumptions about reality and self-identity. Apart from that, however, the superstition and silliness of traditional religious beliefs should be cast aside.
    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-27-2015 at 11:34 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4
    Member Roland's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Brussels and Antwerp, Belgium
    Thank you Jundo and Greg for your responses. I look forward to the podcast about Religious Secular Buddhism - one of the reasons I got deeply interested in Soto Zen Buddhism is that it seems very secular indeed.

    If ever we could organize a Massive Open Online Course about this topic, that would be most wonderful.

    Gassho
    Roland
    #SatToday

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Thank you Jundo and Greg for your responses. I look forward to the podcast about Religious Secular Buddhism - one of the reasons I got deeply interested in Soto Zen Buddhism is that it seems very secular indeed.
    Oh, Soto Zen historically is no more secular or free of myth and superstition than any other religion, Buddhist or otherwise. (I am now reading a book about Keizan, the 14th Century Ancestor, who was driven by dreams and visitations, fortune telling).

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...yokoji&f=false

    Soto Zen in its Western, modern forms tends to be more secular. However, there are big exceptions, such as Kennett Roshi of the Shasta Abbey/OBC, who was also quite prone to dreams and visions and very wild interpretations.

    https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=...isions&f=false

    Depends.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-27-2015 at 05:18 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    .. I do not have much trust in the so-called "paranormal", and beyond trust, I have even less need...
    I believe this is the main reason I was drawn to Zen, and Soto Zen in particular, as there is really no belief or faith required. I believe in the application of the Dharma as it relates to the practical results that I have had based on practice bringing experience. Many people feel the need for different things, and I have no I'll will or need to argue any point. For me, the results I experience are the only faith needed.

    Gassho,
    Brooks sat today.

  7. #7
    Looking forward to it, Jundo.
    Thanks,
    Kaishin (開心, Open Heart)
    Please take this layman's words with a grain of salt.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Tricycle announces an online course about 'Integrated Dharma': 'Integrated Dharma is a new approach to understanding and embodying the teachings of the Buddha. It is intended to bring contemporary people living in the modern world into very intimate contact with the thoughts and words of the historical Buddha. The approach is respectful of the classical tradition and faithful to the original teachings, but also secular in its orientation and focused more on the practical psychology of Buddhism than upon its religious or metaphysical aspects.'The teacher is Andrew Olendzki. I guess it could be interesting?

    Gassho,
    Roland
    Hello,

    Cut the baloney, save money: just sit.


    Gassho
    Myosha sat today
    Last edited by Myosha; 07-27-2015 at 07:25 PM.
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  9. #9
    I'm giving it a try. My understanding is the Mr. Olendzki will teach the first 4 months, on Theravada, and that successive courses will cover later schools of Buddhism, with other teachers.

    _/\_ L.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    The following is not important except to people interested in such silly things ... the rest can disregard ...


    Hi,

    Mr. Olendski is a good Thervadan/Mindfulness Teacher, although I sometimes feel he is too rooted in those fine Traditions. We need to offer something like this more for the Mahayana.

    I will be talking about this in a couple of weeks on the Secular Buddhist podcast (interview scheduled this weekend). I call our flavor "Religious-Secularism", keeping the best and most profound Teachings of Buddhism while abandoning many of the more superstitious elements. I do not have much trust in the so-called "paranormal", and beyond trust, I have even less need.

    I am working on a draft of what this means now (still rough). Here is a small taste ...



    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    In light of metta and interdependence that can even be appreciated intellectually at the least and not in practice, I don't see how a 'siddhi' has a beneficial force multiplier potential. I fully appreciate the secular 'show me the money' ideology, keeps things from getting too crazy. But I also give people the benefit of the doubt relating the existence of Colorado since I never been there but hear about it. Something like a siddhi is rarely demonstrated and hard to quantify regardless if it is referenced often, granted but remote viewing for example would have definite application for a aspiring bodhisattva, knowing where help is needed.

    So show me the money...ok

    I have a paper to build said case published by Jessica Utts from the University of California that explores the possibility of remote viewing being legitimate.

    AN ASSESSMENT OF THE EVIDENCE FOR PSYCHIC FUNCTIONING

    Link to paper: https://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/air.pdf

    "It was indeed found that there was a correlation between the change in entropy in the target and the remote viewing quality." Page 20 Paragraph 1, Sentence 4

    In basic English: when stuff changed while the person saying they could see stuff far away, they were right and had no way of knowing since there were appropriate controls in place.

    The conclusion section of the paper supports that there is no other context to take the previous information in that the paper presents and I used.

    "It is clear to this author that anomalous cognition is possible and has been demonstrated." Page 23, Paragraph 6, Sentence 1.

    It's far less wordy and almost impossible to misunderstand but she said, 'I have enough proof that psychic phenomena is real.

    ...

    Yes there are plenty of fakes and liars and superstitious people but I think there is plenty of applicable utility in what Buddhist Colorado says is possible with full respect that some of it might not be regardless of cognitive bias for or against supernatural phenomena as they are known within our outside of Buddhism.

    Metta,
    Greg






    Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
    A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope. - Dean Koontz

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by GregJanL View Post
    In light of metta and interdependence that can even be appreciated intellectually at the least and not in practice, I don't see how a 'siddhi' has a beneficial force multiplier potential. I fully appreciate the secular 'show me the money' ideology, keeps things from getting too crazy. But I also give people the benefit of the doubt relating the existence of Colorado since I never been there but hear about it. Something like a siddhi is rarely demonstrated and hard to quantify regardless if it is referenced often, granted but remote viewing for example would have definite application for a aspiring bodhisattva, knowing where help is needed.

    So show me the money...ok

    I have a paper to build said case published by Jessica Utts from the University of California that explores the possibility of remote viewing being legitimate.

    AN ASSESSMENT OF THE EVIDENCE FOR PSYCHIC FUNCTIONING

    Link to paper: https://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/air.pdf

    "It was indeed found that there was a correlation between the change in entropy in the target and the remote viewing quality." Page 20 Paragraph 1, Sentence 4

    In basic English: when stuff changed while the person saying they could see stuff far away, they were right and had no way of knowing since there were appropriate controls in place.

    The conclusion section of the paper supports that there is no other context to take the previous information in that the paper presents and I used.

    "It is clear to this author that anomalous cognition is possible and has been demonstrated." Page 23, Paragraph 6, Sentence 1.

    It's far less wordy and almost impossible to misunderstand but she said, 'I have enough proof that psychic phenomena is real.

    ...

    Yes there are plenty of fakes and liars and superstitious people but I think there is plenty of applicable utility in what Buddhist Colorado says is possible with full respect that some of it might not be regardless of cognitive bias for or against supernatural phenomena as they are known within our outside of Buddhism.

    Metta,
    Greg






    Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
    Correction, doesn't have a beneficial force multiplier effect. No 'Freudian slip', mistake, Freud was a very ill man projecting his own deep seated issues on people in light of modern psychology that I still don't take seriously due to 'soft science', trying to cover a few bases at once..

    Metta,
    Greg

    Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
    A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope. - Dean Koontz

  12. #12
    Dear Roland,

    The course seems quite well structured to me, if not perhaps a little expensive...

    While it is not necessary, of course to be a *gasp* 'Buddhist' to practice zazen, I think it is helpful to understand the paradigm. Even for those who don't subscribe to some of the religious elements (rebirth can be a sticking point, for example), it is always good to know exactly what it is with which one disagrees...

    I have found Bhikku Bodhi's Pali Canon translations particularly useful. Wisdom Publications has a number of these on offer at reasonable prices (given the scope of the work) - http://www.wisdompubs.org/books/pali-canon.

    But, as Jundo said above, this is not important except to the folk who are interested in these silly things (I am doing some formal study at present; they might become handy paperweights once I finish with that...!).

    Gassho,
    Anshu

    -sat today-

  13. #13
    Hi friends,
    I cannot talk for Roland and other dharma friends inclined to take this course, but I remember that at the beginning of my practice I was extremely attached to the need of “understand” ideas and concepts related to Buddhist teachings (maybe because I used to be a professor and I had a strong intellectual predominance at that time). Then I remember many years ago I took a formal course about the same concepts in the Japanese association of my city, and every year I take a time to review all my notes of the course about those complex concepts. As other friends appointed it was not only an important investment in time (it was not an online course but in a classroom) but also in money. However, for a weird reason I felt that I needed that.
    After some years of practice I have changed my mind and I agree with most of friends that think that sitting is the key, and go deep in those concepts is maybe not necessary to have a good practice. I my case that doesn’t mean that I dont read more about dharma, but Im most focused on core sutras and texts that help us with them, in general texts like them of Shunryu Suzuki, Joko Beck or Pema Chodron, and in podcasts of some Zen teachers in Internet. But I insist that I needed a time to change my mind and to feel me comfortable letting behind all these silly things, as Jundo said :-D. And Im sure that there are other people like me.
    Gassho
    Miguel

  14. #14
    I forgot something important:
    _(Sat today)_

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by GregJanL View Post
    But I also give people the benefit of the doubt relating the existence of Colorado since I never been there but hear about it. Something like a siddhi is rarely demonstrated and hard to quantify regardless if it is referenced often, granted but remote viewing for example would have definite application for a aspiring bodhisattva, knowing where help is needed.

    So show me the money...ok

    I have a paper to build said case published by Jessica Utts from the University of California that explores the possibility of remote viewing being legitimate.

    AN ASSESSMENT OF THE EVIDENCE FOR PSYCHIC FUNCTIONING

    Link to paper: https://www.ics.uci.edu/~jutts/air.pdf
    Hello Greg,

    Whether Siddhis (paranormal powers claimed by some Buddhists and other mystics) exist or not is not vital to my Practice. To me, the most amazing "mystical powers" exist in the human ability to drink a cool glass of water on a hot day, to smile, to cry, to breathe. Amazing that we are alive for such, here in this world! A couple of old talks ...

    X - Whattsa Who'sa Bodhisattva? - The Virtue of Mystical Powers
    http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/w...al-powers.html

    XI - Whattsa Who'sa Bodhisattva? - (MORE) The Virtue of Mystical Powers
    http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/w...al-powers.html


    But I may also criticize and doubt the existence of many of the wilder claims for powers. I believe that "Colorado" exists while "Oz" (the one with the Wizard, not Australia) does not because I personally witness that (unlike Oz) planes seem to come and go to my town from there without incident, that I have tasted beer labeled as made there, that the residents seem to cast votes in the presidential elections, my mom sent me a postcard from Denver, and that I have seen the Broncos win and lose the Super Bowl. While that all could be a dream or amazing conspiracy to fool one into the existence of "Colorado", it seems more likely that there is a "Colorado". I also have reason to believe that "Oz" is based on a book by a writer of fiction named Frank Baum, as was a Hollywood Movie with Judy Garland.

    Statistics can be bent and interpreted to point to many possibilities. It is a statistical possibility that Oz is real while Colorado is not. Before putting too much faith in a single statisticians report, you should look at the counter-evidence (after all, you have never met the author of "AN ASSESSMENT OF THE EVIDENCE FOR PSYCHIC FUNCTIONING", Jessica Utts, so how do you know she exists?)

    Please read this article ...

    When we examine the basis of Utts’s strong claim for the existence of psi, we find that it relies on a handful of experiments that have been shown to have serious weaknesses after undergoing careful scrutiny, and another handful of experiments that have yet to undergo scrutiny or be successfully replicated. What seems clear is that the scientific community is not going to abandon its fundamental ideas about causality, time, and other principles on the basis of a handful of experiments whose findings have yet to be shown to be replicable and lawful.

    Utts does assert that the findings from parapsychological experiments can be replicated with well-controlled experiments given adequate resources. But this is a hope or promise. Before we abandon relativity and quantum mechanics in their current formulations, we will require more than a promissory note. We will want, as is the case in other areas of science, solid evidence that these findings can, indeed, be produced under specified conditions.

    Again, I do not have time to develop another part of this story. Because even if Utts and her colleagues are correct and we were to find that we could reproduce the findings under specified conditions, this would still be a far cry from concluding that psychic functioning has been demonstrated. This is because the current claim is based entirely upon a negative outcome — the sole basis for arguing for ESP is that extra-chance results can be obtained that apparently cannot be explained by normal means. But an infinite variety of normal possibilities exist and it is not clear than one can control for all of them in a single experiment. You need a positive theory to guide you as to what needs to be controlled, and what can be ignored. Parapsychologists have not come close to this as yet.


    Ray Hyman is professor emeritus of psychology, University of Oregon.
    http://www.csicop.org/si/show/eviden...s_vs._reality/

    But then again, anything is possible. There may be a Wizard, but not Kansas.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-30-2015 at 03:11 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTango View Post
    Hi friends,
    I cannot talk for Roland and other dharma friends inclined to take this course, but I remember that at the beginning of my practice I was extremely attached to the need of “understand” ideas and concepts related to Buddhist teachings (maybe because I used to be a professor and I had a strong intellectual predominance at that time). Then I remember many years ago I took a formal course about the same concepts in the Japanese association of my city, and every year I take a time to review all my notes of the course about those complex concepts. As other friends appointed it was not only an important investment in time (it was not an online course but in a classroom) but also in money. However, for a weird reason I felt that I needed that.
    After some years of practice I have changed my mind and I agree with most of friends that think that sitting is the key, and go deep in those concepts is maybe not necessary to have a good practice. I my case that doesn’t mean that I dont read more about dharma, but Im most focused on core sutras and texts that help us with them, in general texts like them of Shunryu Suzuki, Joko Beck or Pema Chodron, and in podcasts of some Zen teachers in Internet. But I insist that I needed a time to change my mind and to feel me comfortable letting behind all these silly things, as Jundo said :-D. And Im sure that there are other people like me.
    Gassho
    Miguel
    Hi Miguel,

    Well, there is a time to understand intellectually Buddhist, Zen and Mahayana history, philosophy and perspectives. This "Way beyond words and letters", by the way, was never completely beyond book study and "words and letters" (except for some rare radicals of centuries past). Primarily it meant to take the Sutras and other writings in small doses, not getting tangled in them, seeing right through them to the light which shines through and as the words. Know when to pick a book up, know when to put it down. Sit on a Zafu, not only in an armchair. Dogen, Bodhidharma, even 6th Ancestor Hui-Neng (though supposedly illiterate) were extremely well read and studied in the Buddhist texts. Perhaps it is better to say that we burn the books ... but only after we have read them!.

    Then there is a time to just do-non-do ... putting the books downs and letting the thoughts go. Stop thinking about what one has read. When sitting, just sit and do not "think about" all that complexity in the books.

    Then, rising from the cushion ... perhaps all that was written behind between and right thought-and-through the words will begin to come to life.

    A little study and reading on Zen and other Buddhist Teachings, and the words of Teachers old and today, give shape and direction to our Practice. Zazen without understanding the teachings of the Buddha and Ancestors is like formless clay. Study is necessary to properly mold the vessel being made. Yet, we see in/as/behind/through/with and without the words and letters, so it is called a teaching "beyond words and letters".

    It is rather like sailing: There is a time to read a book about sailing, study the maps and the weather reports. But then ... one must just put the reading away, get out on the open water and ... SAIL!

    Gassho, J

    SatToday (read a little today afterwards)
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-30-2015 at 03:09 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hello Greg,

    Whether Siddhis (paranormal powers claimed by some Buddhists and other mystics) exist or not is not vital to my Practice. To me, the most amazing "mystical powers" exist in the human ability to drink a cool glass of water on a hot day, to smile, to cry, to breathe. Amazing that we are alive for such, here in this world! A couple of old talks ...

    X - Whattsa Who'sa Bodhisattva? - The Virtue of Mystical Powers
    http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/w...al-powers.html

    XI - Whattsa Who'sa Bodhisattva? - (MORE) The Virtue of Mystical Powers
    http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/w...al-powers.html


    But I may also criticize and doubt the existence of many of the wilder claims for powers. I believe that "Colorado" exists while "Oz" (the one with the Wizard, not Australia) does not because I personally witness that (unlike Oz) planes seem to come and go to my town from there without incident, that I have tasted beer labeled as made there, that they seem to cast votes in the presidential elections, and that I have seen the Broncos win and lose the Super Bowl. While that all could be a dream or amazing conspiracy to fool one into the existence of "Colorado", it seems more likely that there is a "Colorado". I also have reason to believe that "Oz" is based on a book by a writer of fiction named Frank Baum, as was a Hollywood Movie with Judy Garland.

    Statistics can be bent and interpreted to point to many possibilities. It is a statistical possibility that Oz is real while Colorado is not. Before putting too much faith in a single statisticians report, you should look at the counter-evidence (after all, you have never met the author of "AN ASSESSMENT OF THE EVIDENCE FOR PSYCHIC FUNCTIONING", Jessica Utts, so how do you know she exists?)

    Please read this article ...



    http://www.csicop.org/si/show/eviden...s_vs._reality/

    But then again, anything is possible. There may be a Wizard, but not Kansas.

    Gassho, Jundo

    SatToday
    Jundo,

    It's definitely a difficult issue, it honestly feels like there are enough resources online, points and counter points that one can play the devils advocate on any issue. Give me enough time I can paint a verbal picture suggesting the sky is green and humanity is suffering from some version of a hallucinatory Oslo syndrome. making them think it's blue and stay at it until my head turns blue. This paper may be houey, might not be, proverbial 'tantalizing evidence'..

    Oz, Smoke and Mirrors, Mentalism, mass delusion assumed real are problematic to the point that it does create the realistic demand for facility to replicate findings multiple times to the scientific community in this case in relation to psychic phenomena or others..Still gets me wondering about the cognitive bias of the researchers themselves in any 'conclusive' stuff I read no matter what, never get the 'case closed' satisfaction even on mundane stuff, satisfactory but not 'done'.

    This woman was at the very least honest with her title of the paper, could have gone further into intellectual word salad and completely hidden all motive that can be proven beyond reasonable doubt of where she might be leaning. Might have even made a paper that was and is actually flawed far more popular and referred to as some end all by bandwagon types.

    These are all very valid points, I was wondering if you were completely closed to these possibilities regardless. I know I'm walking a minefield of embarrassment here, I just wonder about this stuff sometimes. It isn't too important at the end of the day since people without skill full actions and consideration for the rest of themselves can 'get' them too apparently, (the legit versions of 'abilities', whatever they are!) and use them for anything but considerate things..

    The 'simplicity of a glass of water' thing is definitely something I'm either under or overestimating the profundity of in a similar way you probably did when you described NOW 5:30 when you encountered your first teacher. My gut appreciation of it is on a very muggy day when a persons mind is calm, a cold glass of water is more 'interesting' then how much of 'Colorodo' I am aware of without the gimmicks. If that is the implication I am fortunate enough to have those experiences more often these days.

    Metta,
    Greg

    Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
    A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope. - Dean Koontz

  18. #18
    Also I can't watch any of the talks yet...I have data but my carrier throddles it to a crawl after the first two gb every month. I'm on the dirt cheap data plan. This has definitely been a rewarding conversation, plenty to 'cook' besides the fundamentals to zen book that was suggested.

    Metta,
    Greg

    Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
    A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope. - Dean Koontz

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by GregJanL View Post
    Freud was a very ill man projecting his own deep seated issues on people in light of modern psychology
    Hi,

    Regarding Freud, I think a certain chairman of a neuropsychiatric department teaching institution double boarded in psychiatry and neurology and author of a medical text or two might disagree with you. So I guess it's a matter of opinion.

    Regarding the other stuff in this thread, why not just sit and save energy for helping sentient beings? Just live once, ya know.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  20. #20
    Hello,

    IMHO Sigmund Freud - a great medical doctor who uncovered important truths about human psychology, AND a gifted artist, a philosophical visionary who re-imagined human nature and helped us confront taboos, but whose theories, offered as science, fail.


    Gassho
    Myosha sat today

    Last edited by Myosha; 07-30-2015 at 12:55 PM.
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Just live once, ya know.
    Only once? That's a cue for a heated debate, with opinion clashing against opinion, isn't it?

    Gassho,
    Jeremy
    SatToday

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Only once? That's a cue for a heated debate, with opinion clashing against opinion, isn't it?

    Gassho,
    Jeremy
    SatToday
    Hi,

    I was not talking to you. I was talking to you.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Myosha View Post
    Hello,

    IMHO Sigmund Freud - a great medical doctor who uncovered important truths about human psychology, AND a gifted artist, a philosophical visionary who re-imagined human nature and helped us confront taboos, but whose theories, offered as science, fail.


    Gassho
    Myosha sat today

    Hi,

    Freud stuff is great shit in vivo. But that's just my opinion.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Last edited by Jishin; 07-30-2015 at 03:41 PM.

  24. #24
    Hi. I have stayed out of this kind of discussion for a while, but would like to say just a couple of things here. First of all Oz is just as real as the rock in my back yard. It is just real in a different way. The rock is a material object, and Oz is a mental/cultural object. They are both real, otherwise we could not talk about Oz or a rock and understand each other. The problem is when the type of real is confused.
    Also, material objects, according to scientific evidence, have a miraculous beginning just as crazy sounding as Genesis. Roughly speaking all matter/energy, not just this house, or this town, or this country, or this 8000 mile diameter planet, ... but ALL the matter/energy of a hundred billion galaxies, non-began and expanded from a dimensionless point. I remember casually talking about this with a friend who was not familiar with the “big bang” theory, who thought I was making crazy stuff up, being really loopy. Science... sober, no-fantasy, science followed its own nose to the doorstep of miracle, mystery, and Wonder . How does the entire universe expanding from a dimensionless point sound any more probable than the days and nights of Brahma?... or the worlds within world of the Kepler Space Telesco...uh... I mean the most fevered sounding Mahayana sutra? Today's knowledge will appear just as silly tomorrow as aether and mesmeric fluids look to us today, and I would bet all the hydrocarbon dunes on Titan that the future will be full of wild surprises. In the meantime I'm going to download an audio book and visit Oz this afternoon. But I won't try to kick it.




    Just blabbing

    Gassho
    daizan

    sat today
    Last edited by RichardH; 07-30-2015 at 08:56 PM.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Hi,

    Regarding Freud, I think a certain chairman of a neuropsychiatric department teaching institution double boarded in psychiatry and neurology and author of a medical text or two might disagree with you. So I guess it's a matter of opinion.

    Regarding the other stuff in this thread, why not just sit and save energy for helping sentient beings? Just live once, ya know.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Jishin,

    I'm not sure who you are referring to, perhaps this is a intelligent and helpful man, a doctor house of western mind medicine or maybe not..

    The reality of the situation is that mental health is trying to treat mental health problems that they themselves are either unsure to what ideal of 'sanity' they are trying to treat towards. Hard to fix broken when by the admission of most psychology types I talked to don't even know what 'normal' is supposed to be.

    There are factors for well being, like lets say having enough food to eat or a safe place to rest ones head that the solipsist-like mind only people completely miss when trying to figure out why a food starved individual is not responding well to questions. The person asking never considers much beyond the point of interaction, not the causality of them being ill. It's not nurture vs nature or nature vs nurture, they both play a role in well being.

    Like with everything, Between Buddha and a stoner thinking they are Buddha, Dr House and the hacks who's work he has to heroically fix there is a gradient. Unfortunately it's not clear where someone falls in the help giving end of this gradient but everyone certainly doesn't have the same level of applicable insight from even the exact same book since their previous knowledge base will have a play on the newer one with or without them understanding how and why.

    I think that the intellectual ivory tower of academia has grown very very far out of touch with what happens in the world. Too much 'good enough because I can sell it to a journal, not because it makes sense'. Not just from psychology..That I'm no expert of...Beginners mind in sincerity at all times and not just rhetoric..

    This applies to everything in a real way, computer generated papers getting into real journals due to a lack of quality checking from either side. This is why even some chief head of a million fields is subject to inquiry to me since I don't know where the bs starts and ends, I don"t even know if it can be really known.

    Here's one article about the cg papers in journals, not the one I first read but it's something.

    http://www.theguardian.com/technolog...oding-academia

    Metta,
    Greg



    Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
    A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope. - Dean Koontz

  26. #26
    Hi Greg,

    You have a lot of energy.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Daizan View Post
    Hi. I have stayed out of this kind of discussion for a while, but would like to say just a couple of things here. First of all Oz is just as real as the rock in my back yard. It is just real in a different way. The rock is a material object, and Oz is a mental/cultural object. They are both real, otherwise we could not talk about Oz or a rock and understand each other. The problem is when the type of real is confused.
    Also, material objects, according to scientific evidence, have a miraculous beginning just as crazy sounding as Genesis. Roughly speaking all matter/energy, not just this house, or this town, or this country, or this 8000 mile diameter planet, ... but ALL the matter/energy of a hundred billion galaxies, non-began and expanded from a dimensionless point. I remember casually talking about this with a friend who was not familiar with the “big bang” theory, who thought I was making crazy stuff up, being really loopy. Science... sober, no-fantasy, science followed its own nose to the doorstep of miracle, mystery, and Wonder . How does the entire universe expanding from a dimensionless point sound any more probable than the days and nights of Brahma?... or the worlds within world of the Kepler Space Telesco...uh... I mean the most fevered sounding Mahayana sutra? Today's knowledge will appear just as silly tomorrow as aether and mesmeric fluids look to us today, and I would bet all the hydrocarbon dunes on Titan that the future will be full of wild surprises. In the meantime I'm going to download an audio book and visit Oz this afternoon. But I won't try to kick it.


    Lovely. I am going to steal some of these perspectives for the "Skeptical Buddhist" podcast interview this weekend.

    Science... sober, no-fantasy, science followed its own nose to the doorstep of miracle, mystery, and Wonder . How does the entire universe expanding from a dimensionless point sound any more probable than the days and nights of Brahma?... or the worlds within world of the Kepler Space Telesco...uh... I mean the most fevered sounding Mahayana sutra?

    What we take as this "solid, real world" is something of a fiction by Buddhist perspective (in fact, you are just experiencing right now a "virtual" simulation or recreation somewhere in your brain of the room where you sit whereby light and other data enters through the eyes and other senses, is turned into electro-chemical signals and reprocessed in the brain ... with representational images (which may or may not look like what is "out there" ... assuming something is "out there"), categories of objects, names, judgments about the objects and (most centrally) the self-other divide imposed. Much of our Buddhist Practice is to pierce this fact, see the "Wizard" behind the curtain of what is going on with that process. However, as you say, "The problem is when the type of real (and type of unreal) is confused."

    It is a bit beyond the discussion here about what makes our dreams and hallucinations different from the "virtual reality" of daily life encountered in the brain, but it is such aspects as regularity, consistent patterns, social agreement, predictability, testability. For example, if I (what I experience as "I") get on a plane (experienced by me only through my senses, of course) and head to Kansas City, put white cow milk in the refrigerator at my friends house and close the fridge door, it is probably going to get cold and be there when I open the door again (unless my friend drinks it). There is a stable pattern and predictability (good for plane flying, as the pilot's controls, the shape of the sky and the runway don't keep changing! That is why we prefer our pilots not to fly on LSD! ). In a dream or hallucination, the milk may be constantly changing colors, come from a dragon or monkey instead of a cow, get hot and turn to wine, which pattern constantly changes wildly.

    Today's knowledge will appear just as silly tomorrow as aether and mesmeric fluids look to us today
    Yes, we must not over-rely on "science" either. An old thread from this forum (which I can only find because this forum follows predictable thread search rules) ...

    Let me mention too that a faith in science to excess, whereby "only" science has the answers and all of life ... love, poetry, beauty ... can be reduced to a test tube or an equation ... can also be dangerous, also a kind of ignorance by "scientism". DNA and Darwin, protons and quarks, carbon and oxygen ... while amazing and wondrous, each holding the building blocks of reality ... can also miss the "Big Picture" if we focus too much on those alone. Furthermore, I believe that many of our most accepted beliefs today will someday be chuckled at by people of the future, much as we now chuckle at the beliefs of people of the 17th century (22nd Century husband talking to wife: "Martha, can you believe that those naive people 100 years ago still believed in gravity?" )
    For those interested, a couple more old threads on Buddhism and Science ...

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post154028

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post121622

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-31-2015 at 04:41 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  28. #28
    Here is a resource that IS free; again, only for those who care (so please don't "just sit" me... )

    http://buddhasutra.com/index.html

    Gassho,
    Anshu

    -sat today-

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    The course is not free but there's a discount for Tricycle-members.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    A little study and reading on Zen and other Buddhist Teachings, and the words of Teachers old and today, give shape and direction to our Practice. Zazen without understanding the teachings of the Buddha and Ancestors is like formless clay. Study is necessary to properly mold the vessel being made. Yet, we see in/as/behind/through/with and without the words and letters, so it is called a teaching "beyond words and letters".

    It is rather like sailing: There is a time to read a book about sailing, study the maps and the weather reports. But then ... one must just put the reading away, get out on the open water and ... SAIL!
    Thanks a lot my friends for such an interesting thread.
    And thank you Jundo for your kind teaching. I found the sailing metaphor frankly great.
    Gassho
    Miguel
    _(Sat today)_

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post

    ...... I am going to steal some of these perspectives for the "Skeptical Buddhist" podcast .......
    I thought I stole them from you...


    Gassho
    Daizan

    sat today

  31. #31
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Between Sea and Sky, Australia.
    Beautiful thread, thankyou all!


    In a similar vein, perhaps, I consider "Romeo and Julliet" by Dire Straits one of the greatest love songs of all time. Can we quantify this please?

    Gassho,
    Geoff

    SatToday
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Hi Greg,

    You have a lot of energy.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Jishin,

    Buddhism definitely helped with that. The observable reality of interdependence necessitating a different degree of compassion with 'beginners mind' keeps things fresh and vibrant to me even if I heard the same thing over and over. 'we are always beginners', 'beginners mind' for me starts with the reality of knowing that I don't know what I don't know nor do I know if I fully know what I think I know well'

    But I still have to go about my business regardless. I think the mind-blowing 'who am I' is the result of a experience if expressed in words of the real recognition of the presumptuous self affirming validity of someone's thoughts being seen as circular self reinforcing logic.

    This kind of experience I think can help close the gradients between the Dr House's and not so much.

    Then again...beginners mind.

    what am I?
    what is this?
    what?
    don't know.

    sat today, can't hurt to sit more, never does.

    Metta,
    Greg

    Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
    A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope. - Dean Koontz

  33. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by GregJanL View Post
    sat today
    Hey you! You look familiar...

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by GregJanL View Post
    But I still have to go about my business regardless. I think the mind-blowing 'who am I' is the result of a experience if expressed in words of the real recognition of the presumptuous self affirming validity of someone's thoughts being seen as circular self reinforcing logic.
    I like that!

    In fact, I like a lot of your scepticism. I can confirm the existence of Colorado - not that my assertion is of any help to you. On the other hand, I can't confirm the existence in the past of 'the historical Buddha', whose thoughts and words are to be brought into 'intimate contact' with those who participate in the Integrated Dharma course referenced in the opening post.

    Go easy... step lightly... stay free,
    Jeremy
    SatToday
    Last edited by Jeremy; 08-01-2015 at 10:05 AM.

  35. #35
    Thank you all, I believe the "Secular Buddhist" interview went well. It should be distributed in about 2 months, Ted said.

    As a sneak peak on part of the discussion, I wrote this little essay describing my view ... here is a taste ...

    There is not one “right” view of Buddhism suitable for all practitioners, and I will never claim my way as best for all. Different suffering beings may require medicines in varied mix and dosage (even placebos and the mere promise of hope at times). Certainly, throughout its history, Buddhism has flowered in countless ways, via the interpretations of countless individuals, as envisioned through their views and beliefs. That will always continue, and simply reflects the genius of the human mind to create endless artistic, philosophical, literary and religious expressions.

    However, I wish to offer a new flavor of Buddhism which avoids both (1) what may be baseless myth, unfounded superstition, primitive magic and historical ignorance among traditional Buddhist practices, and (2) the opposite extreme of stripped down teachings and practices reduced to such a degree that the “baby Buddha” is thrown out with the bath water, whereby many worthwhile and challenging teachings and rituals are lost due to being wrongly limited or labeled as myth and magic. In fact, many ancient legends maintain great value and truth even if wholly or partly ahistorical fictions, many of our most potent and challenging teachings do not contradict or conflict whatsoever with modern and scientific understanding (in fact, many may be seen as supported by modern discoveries), and a long list of our most beautiful, ancient customs and practices have understandable value and meaning even in this day and age.

    I believe that it is possible to maintain beliefs that, as best we can, are freed of superstition. I demand that there be some credible evidence and basis … beyond rumor, anecdote, hearsay and supposition … to rely on claims and suppositions about reality which purport to be true. More is demanded than simple blind faith in the assertions of ancient books or ancestors, even the alleged words of the Buddha himself (even assuming his actual words can be known).
    More some other time ...

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 08-01-2015 at 06:14 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    I can confirm the existence of Colorado
    Me too. I hold it in my hands this very moment!

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  37. #37
    To anyone watching this thread,

    I'm overall supportive of the 'flavor' thus far presented here. There has clearly been a good dialogue on Treeleaf that really sits well of a middle way of provable and unprovable in relation to Buddhism. I see the lack of extremes, the lack of 'if I didn't see it myself it doesn't exist or is doable' and the lack of 'some dude somewhere said something that kinda made sense and therefore magic is real because I saw something weird once'.

    Treeleaf is a microcosm of extremely nuancal rational thought, ethics, and causality of peace that does translate into life if you accept the lack of linearity and also value it by knowing you won't make a proverbial pureland just because you are now a zennie wherever you go. 'Just Sit' is valuable advice for people that appreciate the personal and passive beneficial impact this has on them and hopefully their lives.

    I can't turn off other peoples blenders but I can greatly slow down my own to maintain greater equanimity and find more creative solutions in places where there is nothing resembling a sangha even if they don't work any better!

    I forget where but they say that a single meditator abiding in equanimity while others freak out, at the very least, is more likely to not exacerbate volatile situations and perhaps leave others noticing that freaking out may be a option, the second arrow might be a option.

    From what I understand, where other traditions maintain similar output through elaborate dialogues that are equally as valid as 'just sit', The meditation schools simply go right for applied experience. Zen is no less profound and impactful then the beautiful explanations of what's what in Buddhist experience then the schools that explore technicals. That's my 'take' on gradual vs sudden enlightenment, most current and longest settled one at least.

    Not a original thought process but who cares about originality if something has rung true.

    May all beings abide in sorrowless bliss, free of attachment, bias, and anger.

    Metta,
    Greg

    Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
    A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope. - Dean Koontz

  38. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by GregJanL View Post
    'Just Sit' is valuable advice for people that appreciate the personal and passive beneficial impact this has on them and hopefully their lives.
    "Each moment of zazen is equally wholeness of practice, equally wholeness of realization. This is not only practice while sitting, it is like a hammer striking emptiness: before and after, its exquisite peal permeates everywhere. How can it be limited to this moment?" -

    Dōgen

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    "Each moment of zazen is equally wholeness of practice, equally wholeness of realization. This is not only practice while sitting, it is like a hammer striking emptiness: before and after, its exquisite peal permeates everywhere. How can it be limited to this moment?" -

    Dōgen

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Jishin,

    Thank you for your sitting with Dogen and the approximate paraphrasing. Never had a chance yet to work 'personally' with his actual words but your work wasn't 'limited to your moment in emptiness'.

    Metta,
    Greg

    Sent from my ALCATEL ONETOUCH P310A using Tapatalk
    A fine line separates the weary recluse from the fearful hermit. Finer still is the line between hermit and bitter misanthrope. - Dean Koontz

  40. #40
    Hi Greg,

    You have a point.

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_

  41. #41
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
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    Between Sea and Sky, Australia.
    Jundo, your second point is why ive settled here at treeleaf. Truth, to me, is a metaphr; thats what i learnt from working through point one. lokin forward to your podcast.

    Greg, you must clear the ground before you lay a foundation. youre very clever and i enjoy your posts so far
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  42. #42
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Hey you! You look familiar...

    Gasho, Jishin, _/st\_
    ha, i think im just old enough to understand this!
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

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