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Thread: SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: Why Zen Folks FAIL!! (2) - FAIL-NO-FAIL

  1. #1

    SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: Why Zen Folks FAIL!! (2) - FAIL-NO-FAIL



    People fail at Zen because they think there is a place to fail. But in fact, THERE IS NO PLACE TO FAIL!

    People fail at Zen because they think there is -no- place to fail. In fact, THERE ARE ENDLESS PLACES TO FAIL!

    The biggest place to fail is to believe that there either is or is not places to fail. Better said, the trap is the failure to know that ONE CAN FAIL YET NOT FAIL AT ONCE!

    There is a certain "Win-Win No Fail" realized thru this Way (well represented by the wide open sky in the picture above) which sweeps in all small human wins and losses. There is truly NO LOSS POSSIBLE, nor anything more in need of gain from the startless start. All is Buddha, and Buddha Can't Fail at being Buddha!

    And yet, in life, we must win some lose some. If you think that you will someday reach a point fully beyond all of life's wins and losses, ups and downs, where the sun will always shine without a day of rain ... well, not in this world, honey! If you over-idealistically think so, you are bound to fail (at least so long as one is a human being, a Bodhisattva, living in this world).

    And if you drop your guard and fail to be diligent (perhaps thinking that it makes no difference because 'Ol Jundo said "there is no place to fail"), well, that is a ticket to failure too! Practice is in every moment and volitional choice. There are endless traps and mud piles to fall into ... exercise care or you will fall off the Lotus, and be up to your neck in the greedy, angry, divisive, selfish, miserable muck!. You are not yet Buddha although on the road there, and not until you make Buddha manifest in how you choose to live and act now. So, while you are already always flawless Buddha, you are simultaneously not yet Buddha and can fail at being Buddha!

    One of the top places where people fail in Zen Practice is the failure to pierce these facts, get them in their bones and live accordingly. They fail to see how all of the above are true at once, as one! They fail to see how two seemingly opposed conclusions .... such as that one can fail and not fail at once ... can be true at once (such Zenny nonlogic is what so many of those old Koans are about).

    The great Fayen Wenyi took the high seat before the midday meal to preach to his assembly. Raising his hand he pointed to the bamboo blinds. Two monks went and rolled them up in the same manner. Fayen said, ‘One gains; one loses.’ ... commented Wumen: Tell me, which one gained? Which one lost? ... But I must warn you most firmly against arguing gain and loss.


    Even older Practitioners can fall into one extreme or the other ... running after a world of "Never Any Fail" too much, or at the other extreme, falling back into being excessively caught by the delusion of this world of success and failure. (Even many Buddhist teachers seem to put too much emphasis on reaching an extreme Buddha-realm by fleeing the ordinary world ... failing to see and teach how both mutually illuminate fully, the same yet not). If you are a long term Practitioner, but fail to get the meaning of what I say here, you have somehow missed something crucial despite all your efforts. You (or what you think of as "you") FAIL!

    Thru this wondrous Path, one can attain a center point where all life's ups are up, the downs just down, a certain wise balance is attained where one avoids the pitfalls and minefields of harmful words, thoughts and acts with great aplomb ... all as one simultaneously knows a way of seeing and being fully transcendent of up/down/win/lose/rain/sun ...

    ... all right amid life's successes and failures, sun and rain, ups and downs.

    THE DOWNLOADABLE AUDIO PODCAST VERSION IS HERE:


    Last edited by Jundo; 06-01-2015 at 04:30 AM. Reason: Added podcast episode link.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  2. #2
    Hi,

    I think Zen is often described as not One (singularity) and not Two (duality). One can not exist without Two and vice versa. So it's impossible not to fail or not not to fail. This being so, why care if failure is inevitable. Failure is a winning situation if we can accept that it is a part of life. Don't need to get so worked up if things don't work out exactly we want them to.

    Ok. Now what? We have dynamite information that decreases suffering. Failing or not, we still win. Is it fair to keep this information to ourselves?

    NO!

    In order to fulfill our vows of saving sentient beings the above message needs to be propagated by our actions. Our school does this with Shikantaza and other means.

    This is is my take on this topic.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

    PS: Looking for enlightenment or kensho is delusion. But that's just my opinion.

  3. #3
    Thank you Jundo, wonderful talk. =)

    I also agree with Jishin, if one looks at it in this manner, failure is a winning situation and a great place for growth and learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Failure is a winning situation if we can accept that it is a part of life.
    Gassho
    Shingen

    #sattoday
    RINDO SHINGEN
    倫道 真現

  4. #4
    Hi Guys,

    Today's topic is a bit different from saying that failure always has a bright side or is simply a "chance for growth". I will talk about that another time, I promise.

    Today's topic is that there is a Bright Side that transcends human success and failure. Not quite the same. This is growth and no growth, decline or no decline.

    However, I also believe that failure generally has an upside (well, not always. But in most cases). Time for the old Chinese horse story ...

    here is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years.
    One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied.
    The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man.
    The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer.
    The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "May be," said the farmer.
    And of course, there is always this ...


    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-29-2015 at 05:48 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  5. #5
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Between Sea and Sky, Australia.
    Thankyou Jundo!

    So without One and without Two means without discrimination? Like when it is said that the only mistake is to pit what one likes against what one does not like? So the river that washes away our home exists in a not-one-not-two state and its our own short-sightedness that is the real suffering?

    Im having a great time working out new perspectives (Soto) on familiar themes (theravada) and now I think that i cant fail if I just dont stop. Perhaps we cant fail because theres no ultimate goal and we can fail because we can travel the journey without skillful guidance? Im starting to see the "whole approach" to life I think, if it exists it exists and we just have acknowldege it, everything else is delusion. Talk about attacking the root cause lol!


    Gassho,
    Geoff.


    SatToDay
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Getchi View Post
    Thankyou Jundo!

    So without One and without Two means without discrimination? Like when it is said that the only mistake is to pit what one likes against what one does not like? So the river that washes away our home exists in a not-one-not-two state and its our own short-sightedness that is the real suffering?

    Im having a great time working out new perspectives (Soto) on familiar themes (theravada) and now I think that i cant fail if I just dont stop. Perhaps we cant fail because theres no ultimate goal and we can fail because we can travel the journey without skillful guidance? Im starting to see the "whole approach" to life I think, if it exists it exists and we just have acknowldege it, everything else is delusion. Talk about attacking the root cause lol!


    Gassho,
    Geoff.


    SatToDay
    Hi Geoff,

    Yes, when we drop human discrimination and thoughts of division (self from other), there is a Just Flowing right as all. We are a River that holds all earthly rivers and deserts and houses. Thus we sit Shikantaza Zazen which, while it may appear to be sitting, is actually Flowing, Flowing, Flowing.

    Something like that, I have already said way too much!

    Now, just sit and find out.

    Gassho, J

    Sat and Flowed Today
    Last edited by Jundo; 05-31-2015 at 01:56 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  7. #7
    Member Getchi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Between Sea and Sky, Australia.
    A HUGE thankyou to you Jundo, I will go and sit some more!


    Gassho,
    Geoff.

    AboutToSit
    Nothing to do? Why not Sit?

  8. #8

    SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: Why Zen Folks FAIL!! (2) - FAIL-NO-FAIL

    Hi,

    Whenever I am too tired to try to understand something (like now because of traveling all day) but feel that I somehow have to do something about my lack of understanding I cover my ears and mumble form is emptiness and emptiness is form. There. Problem fixed.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

  9. #9
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Whenever I am too tired to try to understand something (like now because of traveling all day) but feel that I somehow have to do something about my lack of understanding I cover my ears and mumble form is emptiness and emptiness is form. There. Problem fixed.
    I like that, I will try it too.

    Gassho
    Shingen

    #sattoday
    RINDO SHINGEN
    倫道 真現

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hi Guys,

    Today's topic is a bit different from saying that failure always has a bright side or is simply a "chance for growth". I will talk about that another time, I promise.

    Today's topic is that there is a Bright Side that transcends human success and failure. Not quite the same. This is growth and no growth, decline or no decline.
    There is another little talk from awhile back that touches on this ...

    What is the difference between gratitude and Great Gratitude seen in a Buddha's Eye? ... there is a greater, transcendent, boundless Gratitude in the Buddha's Teachings that does not even need the subtle "see the bright side" "find the positive to counter the negative" or "personal pay-off of what's ultimately nice for 'me'" in the above sense of ordinary gratitude. Rather, there's an even Greater "Non-Pay-off" than that! A Jewel so precious, it shines as both earthly jewels and life's thrown bricks and stones in our shoe.
    gratitude & Great Gratitude
    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...reat-Gratitude

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    Thank you, Jundo,

    for those first two parts.
    I like this one a lot.

    Gassho,
    Danny
    #sattoday

  13. #13
    Treeleaf Unsui / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Hi all,

    This talk is now available as a podcast. Either see the link in Jundo's original post, or it should auto-magically appear in your podcatcher if you are subscribed.

    Gassho,
    Sekishi
    #sattoday
    sekishi
    石志

    As a novice priest-in-training, this is simply an expression of my opinion. Please take it with a grain of salt.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Sekishi View Post
    Hi all,

    This talk is now available as a podcast. Either see the link in Jundo's original post, or it should auto-magically appear in your podcatcher if you are subscribed.

    Gassho,
    Sekishi
    #sattoday
    Awesomesauce, thank you Skeishi. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    #sattoday
    RINDO SHINGEN
    倫道 真現

  15. #15
    Im glad these are in podcast form for download. That was I can take these with me on adventures that may or may not have internet service. Therefore I will always feel connected to our sangha.

    Gassho
    James
    Sattoday

  16. #16
    Thank you for this teaching, Jundo.

    I couldn't totally agree more. For a lot of people zen is difficult because in this path we avoid thinking in absolutes. Some are successful on this, others like me fail.

    But it all comes down to letting go our own opinions and prejudices and accept life as it is.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  17. #17
    I couldn't totally agree more.
    Kinda Zen-grammar there, Kyonin! Even me, Mr. "Failnofail", was left scratching-not-scratching my head!

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  18. #18
    Thank you, Jundo

    Gassho
    Meishin
    Sat today

  19. #19
    This is a great talk
    It gives me the feeling (hopefully not illusory) that the penny is starting to drop, as we say in England.

    Gassho,
    Jeremy
    Sat Today

  20. #20
    Oh boy, that was bad English. Sorry

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Kinda Zen-grammar there, Kyonin! Even me, Mr. "Failnofail", was left scratching-not-scratching my head!

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  21. #21
    I would like to think I am at least a c+ BUT ,I also know I am constantly failing. What I take away from all of this also is really seeing how the difficult people are all on the path too, even though they might not know it.

    Gassho
    Ishin
    Sat Today!

  22. #22
    Joyo
    Guest
    Thank you, Jundo.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today

  23. #23
    Thank you Jundo.

    Gassho
    Lisa
    sat today

  24. #24
    Thank you Jundo.

    Gassho,
    Onkai
    SatToday

  25. #25
    Hmm. Maybe I should revive this series with a couple of more episodes.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hmm. Maybe I should revive this series with a couple of more episodes.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Yes please do!

    Gassho,
    Jakuden
    SatToday
    清 道 寂田
    SEIDO JAKUDEN
    I am a novice priest. Any resemblance my posts may have to actual teachings about the Dharma, living or dead, is purely coincidental (and just my attempt to be helpful).

  27. #27
    More episodes would be wonderful.

    Gassho,
    Onkai
    SatToday

  28. #28
    Thank you for this teaching, Jundo. Just what I needed to hear.
    Gassho,
    Mateus
    Sat/LAH

  29. #29
    Thank you Jundo for this teaching. This reminds me of the concept of nonduality.

    Gassho
    SAT

    Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

  30. #30

  31. #31
    I'm failing lots as of late. A good reminder.

    Gassho Kyotai
    ST

    Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk
    I am a student at Treeleaf. Please take what I say with a grain of salt. Gassho

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