Where did it all go...?

[dharmasponge]

Hi,

Was on a bike ride yesterday. Dog ran in front of me and off I came. I was knocked clean out. Concussion, scars and a few broken ribs later I've been laying here asking myself; if mind is separate from the organ of the brain where did both mind and consciousness go when i was out of it?

Didn't sit today ( but crawled out of bed lit incense and did Refuge Prayers )

[Kokuu]

Hi Tony

Glad to hear you are okay.

No idea about where wakeful consciousness comes from and goes to.
Seems to happen every night when I fall asleep, though.

Rest up and feel better.

Gassho
Kokuu
#sattoday

[Jishin]

Hi,

I would ask a 4 or 5 year old.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[Jundo]

Maybe you should ask the dog.

We will sit for your fast recovery.

By the way, when sick one may "sit" Zazen without sitting. When sick and physically limited, the Buddha reclined ...



When crawling just crawl, when moaning just moan. I like to say stuff like ...

We sit with what is ... -AS- what is, having become what is ... which means, when sick, sometimes reclining or the like. When aching, nose blowing, sneezing, coughing ... just ache, nose blow, sneeze and cough, for each is perfectly Zazen when understood as such. Each sneeze is a perfect "ah choo!". Every moan is a kind of sacred chant. The whole universe is wondrously blowing its little nose when appreciated as such!

What does the dog say? Where did he go when you were out?

Gassho, J

[Jishin]

The last person I would ask is a zen master. They like to give answers that are absolutely worthless.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_.

[Anshu Bryson]

Even if mind is 'separate' from the brain (which I doubt is the case in any real sense of the word; and with the 5 aggregates being 'empty of independent existence', after all...?), it is likely still at least 'dependent' on the brain, no...?

Gassho,
Anshu

PS much metta to you; do get well soon!

(sat today)

[Jundo]

Even if mind is 'separate' from the brain (which I doubt is the case in any real sense of the word; and with the 5 aggregates being 'empty of independent existence', after all...?), it is likely still at least 'dependent' on the brain, no...?

Perhaps like the dog is separate from his bark?

Gassho, J

SatToday

[RichardH]

Wishing you a speedy recovery, Tony.

Gassho
Daizan

sat today

[Anshu Bryson]

Perhaps like the dog is separate from his bark?

Gassho, J

SatToday

With the bark being dependent on the dog; surely! ;-)

Gassho,
Anshu

(sat today)

[Jishin]

Maybe there is no tail to wag bark.

Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

[RichardH]

There are the extremes of reducing mind to matter (materialism) and reducing matter to mind (idealism). Mind and brain co-arise. No need to collapse one into the other or raise either to first principle. just sayin... gonna go scramble an egg.

Gassho

Daizan

sat today

btw. Materialism corresponds to "nihilism" and idealism with "eternalism", the traditional extremes warned of. What does that leave?

but then please take this with a grain of salt.

[Myosha]

Metta to all.


Gassho
Myosha sat today

[Anshu Bryson]

"Woof" to all...

Gassho,
Rover

"sat, rolled over and played dead today..."
;-)

[Jinyo]

Feel better soon Tony.

I guess mind/consciousness is an extension of the brain (do mind and brain necessarily co-arise - I'm not sure about that?) I doubt we can have a mind/consciousness without a brain but to
be in a vegetative state is to have a brain - without consciousness.

Even so - there is that sense that the mind is somehow 'out there' - defeating our ordinary notions of space/location/topology.


Anyway - I hope you were wearing a safety helmet - have just bought one each for the grandkids



Gassho



Willow



sat today

[Yugen]

Tony,
Please rest up and wishing you a speedy recovery. We are here if you need anything.

Deep bows
Yugen


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[Risho]

Whoa Tony... man I'm glad you are ok, hope you are feeling better!

Gassho,

Risho
-sattoday

[Rich]

Get well soon.

SAT today

[Byokan]

Tony,

So glad you are ok! Take good care of that concussion. Broken ribs are not as much fun as they're cracked up to be.

For a second there, I thought you were going to say you hit your head and all questions and doubt had disappeared.

What does the dog say? Where did he go when you were out?

I do think that's actually the answer.

Metta, and hopes for swift healing,

Gassho
Lisa
sat today

[Joyo]

Glad you are ok, take care of yourself.

Gassho,
Joyo
sat today

[Jika]

Tony,

thank you for asking this.

I'm often wondering the same.
From my experience, I agree with Willow.
Brain function does not necessarily mean consciousness.

Why does losing consciousness unpredictably trouble me more than going to sleep?
A habit.
The world suddenly non-existing (which, of course, one does not notice) is a worse memory on waking up than embracing sleep like one wanted to the night before.

And sleeping leaves less scars, usually.

So, what does Zen say about sleep and practice in general??
If monks are excused of breaking the precepts in sleep, it seems to be an "out of practice" zone.
How can we strive to awaken - and hit our heads, go to sleep, pass out?
Unattainable

Hope you feel better soon, Tony.

Gassho,
Danny
#sattoday

[KellyRok]

Great question, although I know not the answer.

I hope you heal quickly and can rest both mind and consciousness for a bit. Take care, I'm glad you will be okay in time!

Gassho,
Kelly/Jinmei
sattoday

[Kyosei]

Tony,

thank you for asking this.

I'm often wondering the same.
From my experience, I agree with Willow.
Brain function does not necessarily mean consciousness.

(...)

Then where is that consciousness located?

I mean that one which moves from "wake" to "dreams realm", or that one which shifts from the "abstainer" consciousness to the "junkie"? or that one which goes from the "i'm here" to the "comatosis" counsciousness.

That led me to question: Is that what we call "consciousness" just a reflex of our attainments?

By "reflex" I mean a fantasy, a "movie" which we project into ourselves?

How can we see reality as it truly is, without attainment-born thoughs and feelings?

Sometimes I think we are kinda like "telescopes" through which "THE COUNSCIOUSNESS" sees. Sometimes its lens are very clear, sometimes dirty, sometimes broken. Sometimes we can't see just nothing because the telescope is entirely broken...

Thank you for the question and take care, friend.

**Sat today**

[Jakugan]

Hi,

Was on a bike ride yesterday. Dog ran in front of me and off I came. I was knocked clean out. Concussion, scars and a few broken ribs later I've been laying here asking myself; if mind is separate from the organ of the brain where did both mind and consciousness go when i was out of it?

Didn't sit today ( but crawled out of bed lit incense and did Refuge Prayers )

Hi dharmasponge.

hope you recover quickly.

Gassho

simon

sat today

[Kyotai]

Hope you recover quickly Tony,

Gassho, Kyotai
sat today

[Sekishi]

Hi Tony,

Wishing you a swift recovery. Metta to you and the pup.

Radio waves permeate our bodies, and indeed the whole universe. Without them a radio is silent. But without a radio, we cannot perceive them. Perhaps mind and brain are similar. Radio waves and radios and ears and brains all seem to be required.

I do not know.

Gassho,
Sekishi
#sattoday

[Sekishi]

Radio waves permeate our bodies, and indeed the whole universe. Without them a radio is silent. But without a radio, we cannot perceive them. Perhaps mind and brain are similar. Radio waves and radios and ears and brains all seem to be required.

I knew I heard this as an allegory somewhere before, but I could not remember where from. It popped into my head during Zazen tonight (thanks brain). It is from "No Death, No Fear" by Thich Nhat Hanh:

(But) our true nature is the nature of no coming, no going. We have not come from anywhere, we shall not go anywhere. When conditions are sufficient, we manifest. When conditions are no longer sufficient, we no longer manifest. It does not mean that we do not exist. Like radio waves without a radio, we do not manifest.

It also brings to mind a lovely poem by the Zen scoundrel Ikkyu (from the 1400's):

Break open a cherry tree and there are no flowers,
but the spring breeze brings forth myriad blossoms.

Deviating from the original point a bit, the above also both bring to mind a Koan Dogen discussed in Genjo Koan:

Zen master Pao-ch'ih was fanning himself one summer day when a passing priest asked: "The nature of wind is stationary, and it is universally present. Why do you then use your fan, sir?" The Zen master replied: "Though you know the nature of wind is stationary, you do not know why it is universally present." The priest asked, "Why then is the wind universally present?" The master only fanned himself, and the priest saluted him. Enlightenment through true experience and the vital way of right transmission are like this. Those who deny the need for fanning because the nature of wind is stationary and be cause the wind is sensed without the use of a fan understand neither the eternal presence of the wind nor its nature. Because the nature of wind is eternally present, the wind of Buddhism turns the earth to gold and ripens the rivers to ghee.

Apologies for all the words. Again, much Metta to you Tony, and to the pup, and to all who suffer.

Nine bows,
Sekishi
#sattoday

[dharmasponge]

Thanks for your encouragement. Not really serious in the grand scheme of things - though I am sore as hell 😱 . Quite an experience and has set off my analytical mind on a right one now.

Laid Down Today!

[Yugen]

Take it slow Tony, day by day. An interesting opportunity to see where your mind goes in this time.

Deep bows
Yugen


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[dharmasponge]

This is true. It's a time to recapitulate and look at what I am doing in my practice. Currently I am very aware of how much ego is subtly involved with why I chose 'Zen' as a path. I could be satisfying my ego rather than seeing through it.


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