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Thread: Is everything existing only "inside"?

  1. #1

    Is everything existing only "inside"?

    Friends,

    Lately these days, I've been thinking about how to express in my daily life some experiences I had in Zazen, like, if there is no difference between Buddha, Dharma and Sangha,

    If the Dharma is the Buddha and all of the sentient beings,

    Does everything has Buddha-Nature, or Buddha have (contains) everything?

    In another words, is everything existing "inside" only? (just a way of talk, for there are moments I just don't know if it's "inside" or "outside")

    So what is the main role of every thing and each person in my life, to teach I am in control? if so, why there are apparent individualities?

    How can I "check" if this truth? how can I deepen this "understanding"?

    I beg you sorry if it seems I am making assumptions, but I'd tried to express in words the way I was "developing" a "glimpse" I had for you to share your thoughts with me.
    Last edited by Kyosei; 04-10-2015 at 10:35 AM.
    _/|\_

    Kyōsei

    強 Kyō
    声 Sei

    Namu kie Butsu, Namu kie Ho, Namu kie So.

  2. #2
    Hello !

    The answer to your last question about understanding and checking if this is "truth" or not is beyond categories like "inside", "outside", "container", "contained", etc. It can be experienced by just sitting. If you practice sitting with those questions - meaning, just letting them be, not trying to think about them -, they will, in time, just drop away and become irrelevant.

    Almost everyone goes through those kind of questions, though, they are great koans which need to be investigated thoroughly ! You can do that by reading texts about emptiness, like the Heart Sutra translated by Red Pine, or Nagarjuna's Treaty of the Middle Way, while keeping a steady and regular zazen practice...

    I think you should trust those moments when you don't know if something is inside or outside. In mahayana philosophy, and in yogachara, "inside" and "outside" are not relevant to talk about life as it is. This "don't know" mind, as Seung Sahn, a famous zen master, says, might be the answer.

    Have a good sit !

    Gassho,

    Ugrok
    Sat Today
    Last edited by Ugrok; 04-10-2015 at 11:16 AM.

  3. #3
    What Ugrok said.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  4. #4
    Thank you ugrok and Jundo, but the point that is "itching" here is this: "why there are apparent individualities?" if everything's the same, how can I treat people "as individuals"?

    "Almost everyone goes through those kind of questions, though, they are great koans which need to be investigated thoroughly ! You can do that by reading texts about emptiness, like the Heart Sutra translated by Red Pine, or Nagarjuna's Treaty of the Middle Way, while keeping a steady and regular zazen practice..."

    how can I read these texts properly, is there a method to "study" them? (I have Thich Nhat Hahn's "Heart of Comprehension" and Dalai Lama's commentaries on the "Heart Sutra", are they good sources?)

    Gassho,

    Marcos
    _/|\_

    Kyōsei

    強 Kyō
    声 Sei

    Namu kie Butsu, Namu kie Ho, Namu kie So.

  5. #5
    Hello,

    All people are not individual at all, all people are. So, be as gentle as possible in this life.

    Sitting Zazen is the method, reading some of what was pointed to helps give direction.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday

    PS - Different Teachers and Traditions explain the same things (and non-things) in different ways (though not different). Tibetan ways, TNH ways, same but different, different but the same. Here is the reading list for Soto Zen flavor that we recommend here. A lot there on Heart Sutra and such.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...REELEAF-SANGHA

    In addition to Red Pine, the new Takahashi Sensei book on Heart Sutra, due out this week, is bound to be good.

    http://www.shambhala.com/the-heart-sutra-2.html

    Also, this new book on Dongshan, by Taigen who will be visiting us at Treeleaf next month, is also bound to be good.

    http://www.shambhala.com/just-this-is-it.html
    Last edited by Jundo; 04-10-2015 at 12:59 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hello,

    All people are not individual at all, all people are. So, be as gentle as possible in this life.
    All people are what, where?

    If don't exists individuals beyond Buddha, then who is answering this topic?

    I am starting to understand that Buddha is questioning and being answered by Buddha, but how to explain this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    So, be as gentle as possible in this life.
    Why so? maybe if I am not, at times, is it Buddha hurting the same Buddha?

    Gassho
    Last edited by Kyosei; 04-10-2015 at 01:17 PM.
    _/|\_

    Kyōsei

    強 Kyō
    声 Sei

    Namu kie Butsu, Namu kie Ho, Namu kie So.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by mpdalles View Post
    All people are what, where?
    Yes. Just so.

    If don't exists individuals beyond Buddha, then who is answering this topic?
    Yes. There is nobody beyond Buddha answering this question. So, I am answering, and I am not Buddha.

    I am starting to understand that Buddha is questioning and being answered by Buddha, but how to explain this?
    This is Buddha's question to Marcos, but who is answering?

    Why so? maybe if I am not, at times, is it Buddha hurting the same Buddha?
    OUCH!

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  8. #8
    Treeleaf Unsui / Engineer Sekishi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpdalles View Post
    Thank you ugrok and Jundo, but the point that is "itching" here is this: "why there are apparent individualities?" if everything's the same, how can I treat people "as individuals"?
    Why indeed! Philosophy 101 is filled with these questions. When the acorn is on the oak tree, is it the same or different? When it falls to the ground, is it the same or different? When it begins to sprout, is it the same or different? I recently saw a thing about how huge old redwood trees pass nutrients along to young redwoods around them via mycelium (e.g. the mycelium tap into the roots of both the huge redwood and the young redwood for its own purposes, and in turn transfers nutrients from elder to younger). Three different organisms. Are they separate, or merely different?

    What I would say from my limited understanding is that there are indeed different forms (e.g. "apparent individualities"), but they are not separate. Like all analogies, this one is deeply flawed, but sometimes I imagine a long piece of yarn laid out on a table. With that piece of yarn, we can lay out the outlines of beautiful forms, trees, symbols, geometric shapes, etc. Each is different. But if we pull the two ends of the yarn, it straightens out into a single string again. Each form was part of a whole.

    All that said, what I value about our practice so much is that it is NOT philosophy (for all that Dogen, Nagarjuna and others may have engaged in a bit philosophy from time to time), but a "way". We attempt to refrain from unhelpful actions, and to take up helpful ones. We sit. We bow with gratitude to all sentient beings. Sometimes we might even glimpse a glimmer of the fact that everything is sentient, and we bow to the whole Buddha field, the whole ball of yarn.

    But I don't know anything, so take that with a grain of salt.

    Gassho,
    Sekishi
    #sattoday with the ball of yarn, knots and all

    Last edited by Sekishi; 04-10-2015 at 05:14 PM. Reason: I had not seen this video until after I posted. Perfect except that there are no "ends" to the yarn IMHO. ^_^
    sekishi
    石志

    He/him. As a novice priest-in-training, this is simply an expression of my opinion. Please take it with a grain of salt.

  9. #9

    Is everything existing only "inside"?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpdalles View Post
    Friends,

    Lately these days, I've been thinking about how to express in my daily life some experiences I had in Zazen, like, if there is no difference between Buddha, Dharma and Sangha,

    If the Dharma is the Buddha and all of the sentient beings,

    Does everything has Buddha-Nature, or Buddha have (contains) everything?

    In another words, is everything existing "inside" only? (just a way of talk, for there are moments I just don't know if it's "inside" or "outside")

    So what is the main role of every thing and each person in my life, to teach I am in control? if so, why there are apparent individualities?

    How can I "check" if this truth? how can I deepen this "understanding"?

    I beg you sorry if it seems I am making assumptions, but I'd tried to express in words the way I was "developing" a "glimpse" I had for you to share your thoughts with me.
    Drop the questions. Quit splitting the world in two and one answer appears.

    Gassho, Jishin
    Last edited by Jishin; 04-10-2015 at 08:41 PM.

  10. #10
    _/|\_
    _/|\_

    Kyōsei

    強 Kyō
    声 Sei

    Namu kie Butsu, Namu kie Ho, Namu kie So.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    Drop the questions. Quit splitting the world in two and one answer appears.

    Gassho, Jishin
    What Jishin didn't say.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    What Jishin didn't say.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    I said too much...

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Sekishi View Post
    With that piece of yarn, we can lay out the outlines of beautiful forms, trees, symbols, geometric shapes, etc. Each is different. But if we pull the two ends of the yarn, it straightens out into a single string again. Each form was part of a whole.

    That is truly a lovely, lovely little film.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    That is truly a lovely, lovely little film.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Very cool.

    Gassho, Jishin

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sekishi View Post
    Why indeed! Philosophy 101 is filled with these questions. When the acorn is on the oak tree, is it the same or different? When it falls to the ground, is it the same or different? When it begins to sprout, is it the same or different? I recently saw a thing about how huge old redwood trees pass nutrients along to young redwoods around them via mycelium (e.g. the mycelium tap into the roots of both the huge redwood and the young redwood for its own purposes, and in turn transfers nutrients from elder to younger). Three different organisms. Are they separate, or merely different?

    What I would say from my limited understanding is that there are indeed different forms (e.g. "apparent individualities"), but they are not separate. Like all analogies, this one is deeply flawed, but sometimes I imagine a long piece of yarn laid out on a table. With that piece of yarn, we can lay out the outlines of beautiful forms, trees, symbols, geometric shapes, etc. Each is different. But if we pull the two ends of the yarn, it straightens out into a single string again. Each form was part of a whole.

    All that said, what I value about our practice so much is that it is NOT philosophy (for all that Dogen, Nagarjuna and others may have engaged in a bit philosophy from time to time), but a "way". We attempt to refrain from unhelpful actions, and to take up helpful ones. We sit. We bow with gratitude to all sentient beings. Sometimes we might even glimpse a glimmer of the fact that everything is sentient, and we bow to the whole Buddha field, the whole ball of yarn.

    But I don't know anything, so take that with a grain of salt.

    Gassho,
    Sekishi
    #sattoday with the ball of yarn, knots and all

    Thank you. Loved your words and that short film


    ..sat2day•

  16. #16
    Hi,

    I understand your questions. If you're determined I recommend this book:- http://www.tharpa.com/uk/the-new-heart-of-wisdom.html

    You'll likely get all sorts of opinions about the author - Ignore them. The book is generally held as being one of the best expositions of the Heart Sutra - even Robert Thurman said its was 'Agonisingly Perfect".....bless his cotton socks!

    It will answer your questions about the Two Truths.

    But remember this is not 'Zen'!



    Sat Today
    Last edited by dharmasponge; 04-17-2015 at 08:07 AM.
    Sat today

  17. #17
    That was a most intriguing little video, thanks!
    Does that represent, uhm .... string theory?
    Sorry

    SatToday
    -r

  18. #18
    Kyotai
    Guest
    That was a wonderful little film.

    Gassho, Kyotai
    sat today

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