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Thread: How Do We Not Cling to Non-Clinging?

  1. #1

    How Do We Not Cling to Non-Clinging?

    In another post, we brought up not clinging to non-clinging. How do we do that? I'm guessing the answer is a simple, "Sit! Sit! Sit!" and it all flows as it will. From what I've heard, not clinging to non-clinging is one of the universal challenges faced by Dharma students, that and not clinging to the Three Jewels. Do any of you have experience with this? Experience with letting go of letting go? When the hands let go of the rope, how do the hands then let go of themselves? Haha that was a sloppy metaphor.

    Gaassho, John
    Sat Today

  2. #2
    Joyo
    Guest
    Well I'm not an expert, but I just do my best to live in the moment, enjoying the sunset, washing the floor, taking care of children, scrubbing the toilet. In this way, there is no clinging/non-clinging.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless View Post
    When the hands let go of the rope, how do the hands then let go of themselves?
    The hands lets go of themselves when the hands see the hands as just hands. =)

    Gassho

  4. #4
    Thank you so much Shingen and Joyo. Joyo, I think it was actually you who inspired me to ask this question.

    Gassho, John
    Sat Today

  5. #5
    I usually tell people that our Way is attachment without attachment ... simultaneously holding but not holding, embracing but nothing to clutch ... as if out of one eye we live one way, from the other eye are beyond all need to attach or choose. Two eyes not even one, all a Buddha Eye.

    I also tell folks not to over-think things, but to come to live and feel this in the bones. Thus we sit Shikantaza, Sitting Buddha in a Buddha Eye. Yes, Just Sit, let this Koan resolve and dissolve itself.

    I sometimes write on the related question of what is the difference between a Buddha's "non-attachment" and being detached or apathetic ...

    Our way is to be "non-attached", not "detached" and "unattached". That means that one can emotionally savor, to the marrow, what is happening in life right now ... and one can commit to that and pour oneself into that ... but just do not cling to that, be willing to let it go. Appreciate this life while it is here (for our self for for those selfs we love) ... and when it is over, release (feeling grief when grief at loss of those we love is called for). Feel all emotions, yet simultaneously see through them as mental theatre, do not be imprisoned or made a puppet, seek to keep moderation and balance (although ... even then, moderation may not always be best when it comes to love).

    I think of this quite frequently as our son gets bigger. He is getting older, a time of bitter-sweet happiness. I do not want to be emotionally detached from that, but neither do I want to cling to this moment, try to keep him from growing up, and be unwilling to see it all pass.

    Early Buddhism did emphasize emotional detachment more than the later Mahayana. As I said, now we tend not to see our thoughts and emotions (i.e., the "self") so much as the "enemy" as bits of theatre that have to be seen through, handled wisely, not allowed to tie us up. That is a big difference. Same with ordinary life, which is no longer seen as something to "escape", but as something to also be seen through, handled wisely, not allowed to tie us up.
    One can be attached to Zazen or Buddhism, the people we love and such. Just cling lightly also, even as you fully savor each. Also-also (a double also ) know the Buddha's View free of all views and attachments, All At Once, As One. ... squeezing hard, squeezing lightly and also-also fully open handed AT ONCE! Attached and present, yet not attached in the least. A kind of healthy schizophrenia ... not a "split" personality, but a Whole!

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  6. #6
    Hi John,

    For me it comes to a matter of not getting obsessed with stuff. You can cling to the dharma in the way that it helps life and that it's fascinating, but watch yourself closely to not grow obsessed with it.

    Same goes for our relationship with the universe. It's okay to hold on to our jobs since they pay our lifestyles, but when you get too attached to it, only suffering will come.

    You can love someone and be happy with him/her, but the moment you get too attached you make everyone suffer.

    So a hand loves the other, but they know they both are free. Something like that or I just need more coffee.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Shingen View Post
    The hands lets go of themselves when the hands see the hands as just hands. =)

    Gassho
    That's really lovely.

    I don't know what the answer is to this. All I know is that when some loss occurs, some person or loved one, a pet, even a tree, there's going to be some pain, and that's okay. No running from the pain, but no wallowing in it either. Everything in its place. To me, it's not that emotions are unreal and that's why we shouldn't cling; we don't cling because everything changes - so emotions are changing, always changing, and if they're always changing, then pain changes to being okay and okay to joy and joy to calm, etc. Zazen keeps us from being swept up in any one emotion while also letting each thing (emotion) express itself fully; zazen puts us into the balanced place of letting go. But if we want to let go, if we want to not-cling, well that's the trap.

    Gassho,
    Alan
    sattoday
    Shōmon

  8. #8
    Nothing to add. I just wanted to say that I really love you guys. Great questions, great answers.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    -sattoday

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    A kind of healthy schizophrenia ... not a "split" personality, but a Whole!
    Haha! Excellent, thank you Rabbi! Like talking from both sides of our no-sided mouths. Thank you all! Yes, getting obsessed with anything is rarely healthy. Balance.

    Gassho, John
    Sat Today

  10. #10
    "Your disciple's mind is not at peace yet. I beg you, Master, please put it to rest."

    Bodhidharma said, "Bring me your mind, and I will put it to rest."

    The Second Ancestor said, "I have really searched for my mind, but I cannot find it."

    Bodhidharma said, "There, I have put it completely to rest."


    ----
    Stop thinking too much. Let go. You are trying to undo what is in one way at least...already done!

    Gassho
    Meikyo
    SAT TODAY!
    ~ Please remember that I am very fallible.

    Gassho
    Meikyo

  11. #11
    Hi friends. Thank you so much for these reflections. As John said in his first post, we know that the ultimate response to attain the state of inner peace is sit, but its a long path. Thank you Jundo for your idea of “attachment without attachment”.
    Gassho
    Miguel
    #Sat Today

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by alan.r View Post
    To me, it's not that emotions are unreal and that's why we shouldn't cling; we don't cling because everything changes -
    What Alan said here really flicked a switch for me. I hope I can put it into words. I’m always trying to let go, release, open my hands. But whether to cling or not-cling is a false choice. Both are delusions. How can you cling or not-cling to something that you cannot ever get ahold of, or let go of? Everything is changing and flowing in every moment. If you think you’ve got something in your hands, look again. It has already changed and is flowing on. If you think you’ve let go, look again. How can you let go of anything when everything is in you, and you are in everything? Beyond clinging and not-clinging, grasping and letting go, is just the flow of all things, ever changing, always the same, containing all, and empty.

    Ok, and now I re-read everyone’s posts here and they’ve all said the same thing, but in different words. Ha! Isn’t it funny, how it’s right in front of you but you don’t quite get it until you get it? Thank you Alan, for giving me the magic words for today.

    Sangha rocks.

    Gassho
    Lisa
    sat today

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by raindrop View Post
    But whether to cling or not-cling is a false choice. Both are delusions. How can you cling or not-cling to something that you cannot ever get ahold of, or let go of?
    Whoa, that seems an even better expression of it to these eyes. Thank you right back at you, Lisa. And right back at you, too, Risho.

    Gassho,
    Alan
    sattoday
    Last edited by alan.r; 02-23-2015 at 03:28 AM.
    Shōmon

  14. #14
    Clinging in Sanskrit is UPADANA.
    The main meaning of UPADANA, however, is "fuel," also used as "attachment," "craving," "clinging."
    I went to Wikipedia .

    The fuel def. seems to refer to ego/mind fuel; energy to act in samsara.
    The initial use of this energy is positive; it becomes negative when we obsess.
    As Jundo says above, it does not mean detachment, or to become indifferent, or to completely eradicated clinging; but it's more of a realization of the right way to react to life; to concioulsy be involved, a middle way too.
    I found it interesting how it really means fuel, which is such an important part of life; and it can be used for good ends or bad.
    So, if clinging is ego fuel, then non-clinging should be the wise use of this energy.

    Just sit.

    In gassho,

    Seido,

    sat2day.
    Last edited by Ed; 02-27-2015 at 12:56 PM.
    "Know that the practice of zazen is the complete path of buddha-dharma and nothing can be compared to it....it is not the practice of one or two buddhas but all the buddha ancestors practice this way."
    Dogen zenji in Bendowa






  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless View Post
    In another post, we brought up not clinging to non-clinging. How do we do that?
    Hi,

    You can't.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

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