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Thread: Return to Sender....maybe! (Jundo: Maybe Not!)

  1. #1

    Return to Sender....maybe! (Jundo: Maybe Not!)

    Hello everyone,

    When sitting in Shikantaza and the mind 'wanders' what does it wander from?

    I ask as I am often told that there is no specific focus in Shikantaza - if so were to we bring the mind back to and from where does is wander from when sitting?

    If it is just the process of sitting then this is the focus like any other...Anapanasati for example - maybe?

    Sat Today
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-28-2015 at 06:15 AM.
    Sat today

  2. #2
    Hi Tony

    I would not say that the mind wanders from something but just wanders. Where is the fixed point in sitting? Or in life?

    In shikantaza our attention may wander from birdsong to achy knees, the smell of incense and thoughts about what we are doing that evening.

    Life and practice are one long wander through the woods of existence.

    Of course, as people pointed out in the thoughts thread, we try not to feed thoughts or attach to them, but thoughts happen and that is fine. I guess the difference there is we let the wandering happen rather than forcing our own agenda on it. Or analysing whether we are getting it right!

    Maybe don't think of it as returning but instead of emptying your bowl.

    Caveat - this advice comes from an inexperienced student of the way who often has difficult remembering where he left his keys and should be taken as such.

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #satandwanderedtoday
    Last edited by Kokuu; 01-27-2015 at 11:03 AM.

  3. #3
    <gently pulls hair out>
    Sat today

  4. #4
    Tony

    If you find yourself thinking, stop feeding the thinking. That is it. All else can happen by itself.

    There is no right or perfect state so I wouldn't keep looking for one.
    Let go of the sides of the pool and float free. The water is nice and it is quite liberating!

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    Last edited by Kokuu; 01-27-2015 at 11:09 AM.

  5. #5
    Hi Tony,

    One could argue about whether Shikantaza Zazen is meditation or not.
    Normally, meditation has an object to focus on (e.g. the breath), but Shikantaza is lacking this.
    In fact, I have read several times from people who say that zazen is not meditation.
    (I don't care though, I just sit.)

    Just allow your thoughts to drift by. Accept things as they are, as IT is. Let go of yourself. Don't cling/attach.
    What remains is the entire universe, in fact all there is.

    Just my two cents.


    Gassho,

    Daitetsu


    #sat2day
    no thing needs to be added

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Daitetsu View Post
    Hi Tony,

    ....In fact, I have read several times from people who say that zazen is not meditation.


    #sat2day

    Ahhhhh....! Shikantaza is NOT meditation - now that would explain away a LOT of my confusion if thats the case!

    Sat Today
    Sat today

  7. #7
    Hi Tony,

    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    Ahhhhh....! Shikantaza is NOT meditation - now that would explain away a LOT of my confusion if thats the case!
    Just to be sure: I don't say this is the case (I am no authority on these matters!), but I think one could argue about this point.
    But then one just ends up in another (cumbersome) game of definitions, whereas zazen is beyond definitions.
    Shikantaza is shikantaza - whether one calls it meditation, waste of time, lkwjflksjsldkjflsk is the same to me. It does not change a thing. The only thing you'd change is the label you put on it.
    Drop the labels, just sit.

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu

    #sat2day
    no thing needs to be added

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    Hello everyone,

    When sitting in Shikantaza and the mind 'wanders' what does it wander from?

    I ask as I am often told that there is no specific focus in Shikantaza - if so were to we bring the mind back to and from where does is wander from when sitting?

    If it is just the process of sitting then this is the focus like any other...Anapanasati for example - maybe?

    Sat Today
    No.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

  9. #9

    Return to Sender....maybe!

    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    Ahhhhh....! Shikantaza is NOT meditation - now that would explain away a LOT of my confusion if thats the case!

    Sat Today
    No.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

  10. #10
    Hi Tony,

    this may be very stupid.
    I had to do some tests a while ago, remember as many words as possible.
    I noticed my mind linking this list of words by a story with scenes - and imagined movement.
    I didn't do it on purpose, like stepping to the left or walking outside.

    In zazen, I do the opposite, I step back.
    As if stepping back behind my eyes, inside me, detached me from the thoughts and they are simply there or not, like birdsong is sometimes there or not.
    By stepping back, I also step outside: because there is no focus inside, everything is the focus.

    You know much more, but I hope some of my experience can be helpful.

    Gassho,
    Danny
    #sattoday

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Jishin View Post
    No.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_

    ...this is not good for PR Jishin.

    Trust me this is the very thing that puts people off even starting to become interested in Zen.

    If you're enlightened then good for you. I and many other in here are not yet...consequently I neither have the time or inclincation to fathom the depths of your mind.

    I appreciate the party line in terms of Zenny answers, but to some f us they're utterly without meaning metaphysical or otherwise.

    It just looks silly to be honest.

    Sorry, but I have a blunt sword and little time for stroking!
    Sat today

  12. #12
    Hi Tony,

    No metaphysical or religious explanations here. Just a raw and common sense oriented opinion.

    I am not an expert but in my view and for what I have read, the mind evolved to think and wander. It is how we relate with the universe and how we process information. The mind produces thoughts all the time, non stop. It doesn't wanders from or escapes to nowhere. It just does its job keeping us processing information.

    What we do in Shikantaza is to observe the thoughts pop up and do our best not to cling to them and not to add stuff to them. If we caught ourselves clinging, then we let go and return to the present moment. We let them be and go away.

    I have found that with training the process becomes a little easier.

    So no wandering. Just the mind doing what the mind does.

    Gassho,

    Kyonin
    #SatToday
    Hondō Kyōnin
    奔道 協忍

  13. #13
    dharmasponge,

    Like Daitetsu, I also don't know whether I have this stuff right yet ...

    Where I "come back to", if I 'come back' at all (oftentimes, I will just 'stay' and let everything else 'go past', if that makes any sense...), is the 'now'.

    All of the conversations going on in my head are generally either 1. dwelling on things in the past, or 2. worrying about things in the future. I want to sit in the space between those poles, if I can, as it is very seldom that we can dwell in the 'now' in our daily lives (there is far too much thinking to be done just in order to function!).

    I know that might sound a bit vague, but this is all experiential and difficult to describe in menu form...

    Finally, while this might not be my place, please let me remind you that this forum is not the place for 'blunt swords', but for "gentle speech"; you are much more likely to elicit a positive response through that method...

    Gassho,

    Bryson

    sat today
    Last edited by Anshu Bryson; 01-27-2015 at 01:21 PM.

  14. #14

    Return to Sender....maybe!

    Hey Tony,

    I am giving you the most compassionate answer that I can come up with to your questions. Since you are in the mental health business, I will put my answer to you in the mental health lingo:

    The Ego of Tony does not want to sit. Period. Any answers that I give the Ego of Tony that are intellectual in nature will give the Ego of Tony a chance to sink its teeth on and continue intellectualizing as a defense mechanism to the dissolution of the Ego of Tony. If one of the goals of Buddhism is the dissolutions of the Ego, then the more the Ego of Tony continues to intellectualize, the further away the Ego of Tony gets from becoming one, whole, returning to the source, enlightened or whatever you want to call it.

    So, the answer is No! It's hard for the Ego of Tony to sink teeth on this answer, No. This is a favorite answer in Zen and its a good one. Read the Heart Sutra and Koans to see this teaching all over the place.

    No no no no no! This is my very compassionate answer to the Ego of Tony, believe or not.

    So there. Sink your teeth on this answer and intellectualize some more since now you know why I say no. I am talking to you and not you.

    Gassho, Jishin, _/st\_
    Last edited by Jishin; 01-27-2015 at 01:43 PM.

  15. #15
    Hi Tony !

    Where is it, where am i, where does the mind come from, where does it go, what is it, what is it not, what is a thought, where does it come from, who am i...

    I can do the next bunch of questions for you if you want ! There is a good post of Jundo about those questions, i think you can find it in "teacher's talk".

    I think Jishin is right. Nobody can answer you seriously without putting fuel on the fire, because these questions have no purpose, no relevance (and no answer) other than trying to make your reality fit in premade categories, which is a defense mechanism because, well, categories feel secure. I know it because i experienced all the questions you ask here (as well as the hair pulling and head exploding - and anxiety, which i hope you don't feel too much), and, through sitting mainly (but not only !), those questions don't arise anymore.

    I know it is said often in zen, not to intellectualize, and not to put things into concepts, etc (which is quite fun since there are like 258 tons of philosophy books written by zen masters). But if you are, like me, a "thinker", that likes to get to the end of things with reason and logic, then you might find out that a good way to get rid of this is to use it ! The questions you ask are adressed in Nagarjuna's philosophy, for example : the concept of "where", of "space", of "time", are logically investigated, through and through. The conclusion of the logical analysis is that it is not possible to give a stable, absolute, "REALER THAN REAL" logical account of any of those. If you go to the end of logical reasoning, it falls apart. You could listen to John Dunne's podcasts at Upaya Zen Center's website, entitled "Revealing Nagarjuna". It's fun, and it gets your logical mind cornered. This really helped me a lot coming to terms with those questions. This, and therapy, and sitting zazen, as well, because what helps really is to drop everything that you "know", even the fact that you know that you don't know. Sitting, and studying, will get you out of these questions. I would also add someone to talk to without him/her judging you or giving you advice is a blessing.

    I know this is not well perceived in the zen community, where people always tell you to "stop thinking" and to stop rationalizing things, but for me, thinking precisely and logically about some of this stuff allowed me to let go of a lot of premade conceptions about reality when i saw that, even logically, a lot of stuff we "think" about does not make sense !

    Gassho,

    Ugrok,

    Sat Today
    Last edited by Ugrok; 01-27-2015 at 04:20 PM.

  16. #16
    Hi Tony,

    Another thing (and the following is not meant as criticism):
    You should consider why you ask your questions about Shikantaza and this practice.
    Because you think you might do something wrong?
    Out of curiosity?
    Because you are afraid you are wasting your time?
    Because you have some expectations that have not been met yet?

    Think about your reasons of your questions honestly. Perhaps this is revealing (or not).

    I knew when I began with this practice years back I had questions myself.
    But if you carry on sitting despite everything, these questions will eventually dissolve by themselves. You might even forget some of those questions.
    And then you just practise in order to practise.
    You will lose yourself and finally find yourself.
    Zazen zazenning zazen.

    Gassho,

    Daitetsu

    #sat2day
    no thing needs to be added

  17. #17
    I'm not a teacher, I've only been sitting for a few years. When my mind 'wanders', I typically mean that it is no longer 'here', aware of this now. It has gone off into a stream of thoughts.. pulled into an old argument, some fantasy, etc.

    So when I sit, I'm bringing my attention back here... not to a dot on the wall, not to the breath.. .here... now.

    Car honks, now, fine. that's here. Birdsong, door creaks, AC starts, someone yells at their angry pet bird.. all fine, now

    Gassho,

    Risho
    -missed morning sit, will sit at lunch

  18. #18
    Hmmmm.

    Here is a "on the one hand (clapping), but then again on the other hand" response ...

    First, the thoughts do not "come from" anywhere do not "return to" anywhere. There is no "there" or "here" for return. One must sit as such realization. The simplest image for this in Mahayana Buddhism is the "mirror mind". The mirror shines as all without judgement, in wholeness. The mirror does not come from anywhere to be the mirror, does not go someplace to be the mirror. The light and images in the mirror do not come or go anywhere, for all are in the mirror ... are the mirror's very shining. So, please stop thinking that one is leaving or getting to somewhere. Thus, in Shikantaza, one sits as Total Manifesting, Whole and Complete. PLEASE STOP THINKING THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO GET SOMEWHERE,BECAUSE YOUR THOUGHTS OF "OVER THERE" ARE PRECISELY WHAT MAKES THINGS EVER MORE DISTANT! Do not be a mirror looking for the mirror. Do not be the dog chasing its own tail. The mirror is present when there are thoughts, the mirror is present when there are no thoughts. Mirror does not depend on thoughts or no thoughts. Mirrors are smart ... people and tail chasing dogs are stupid.

    But on the other hand ...

    In Zazen, we want to avoid to be tangled in thoughts, and so we return again and again to the quiet between thoughts. Eventually, when getting good at this, one finds that the quiet is between thoughts AND right at the heart of thoughts too (this is the same as finding that the mirror, the light, shines both as the absence of thoughts and their presence). Why do we wish to untie from thoughts? Because being all tied up in runaway thoughts, judging and emotions is what makes it so hard to realize the mirror that is always present in thoughts or no thoughts! So, we untangle from thoughts, judgments and runaway emotions in order to realize that, ultimately, it is not a matter of thoughts or no thoughts, etc. However, until we get a bit untangled and clear seeing, one has a hard time to realize so! So, the place to "come from" is the place with lots of thoughts and emotions, and where to "come back to" is where one is not tangled and grabbing at thoughts, and the light of clarity begins to shine.

    See?

    I do not quite agree with Daitetsu on this, and think it wrong ...

    Normally, meditation has an object to focus on (e.g. the breath), but Shikantaza is lacking this.
    Well, in order to untangle from thoughts, in Shikantaza one may come back to the breath, the posture, the Hara. Even the "open, spacious awareness" I emphasize for various reasons is a kind of focus away from tangled thoughts ... That is the "object" which we as a "subject" look toward to get untangled.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post139055

    However, I completely agree with Daitetsu when he writes, so rightly beyond and right through right and wrong ...

    Normally, meditation has an object to focus on (e.g. the breath), but Shikantaza is lacking this.
    Shikantaza is completely lacking an object of focus. The mirror does not need a focus to find the mirror. One must sit beyond and right through a "subject" and "object". There is no one to focus, no separate target to look toward.

    Gee, folks, in this Mahayana Way, ya gotta stop seeing things just one way.

    I posted something on another thread tonight about gift giving. It is about how we give a gift to a recipient but, at the same time, there is no gift, giver or givee. Moreover, nothing is lacking. If you get the logic of this, perhaps what I write above will make sense too .

    Gassho, J
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-30-2015 at 03:41 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post

    When sitting in Shikantaza and the mind 'wanders' what does it wander from?
    Hi Tony. Yes! What you wrote right there, that question, it goes right through everything. It's in you. That question is it. Sit with that.

    Gassho,
    Alan
    sattoday
    Shōmon

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Hmmmm.

    Here is a "on the one hand (clapping), but then again on the other hand" response ...

    First, the thoughts do not "come from" anywhere do not "return to" anywhere. There is no "there" or "here" for return. One must sit as such realization. The simplest image for this in Mahayana Buddhism is the "mirror mind". The mirror shines as all without judgement, in wholeness. The mirror does not come from anywhere to be the mirror, does not go someplace to be the mirror. The light and images in the mirror do not come or go anywhere, for all are in the mirror ... are the mirror's very shining. So, please stop thinking that one is leaving or getting to somewhere. Thus, in Shikantaza, one sits as Total Manifesting, Whole and Complete. PLEASE STOP THINKING THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO GET SOMEWHERE,BECAUSE YOUR THOUGHTS OF "OVER THERE" ARE PRECISELY WHAT MAKES THINGS EVER MORE DISTANT! Do not be a mirror looking for the mirror. Do not be the dog chasing its own tail. The mirror is present when there are thoughts, the mirror is present when there are no thoughts. Mirror does not depend on thoughts or no thoughts. Mirrors are smart ... people and tail chasing dogs are stupid.

    But on the other hand ...

    In Zazen, we do not get tangled in thoughts, and return again and again to the quiet between thoughts. Eventually, when getting good at this, one finds that the quiet is between thoughts AND right at the heart of thoughts too (this is the same as finding that the mirror, the light, shines both as the absence of thoughts and their presence). Why? Because being all tied up in runaway thoughts, judging and emotions and makes it so hard to reallize the mirror that is always present! So, we untangle from thoughts, judgments and runaway emotions in order to realize that, ultimately, it is not a matter of thoughts or no thoughts, etc. However, until we get a bit untangled and clear seeing, one has a hard to to realize so! So, the place to "come from" is the place with lots of thoughts and emotions, and where to "come back to" is where one is not tangled and grabbing at thoughts, and the light of clarity begins to shine.

    See?

    I do not quite agree with Daitetsu on this, and think it wrong ...



    Well, in order to untangle from thoughts, in Shikantaza one may come back to the breath, the posture, the Hara. Even the "open, spacious awareness" I emphasize for various reasons is a kind of focus away from tangled thoughts ... That is the "object" which we as a "subject" look toward to get untangled.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post139055

    However, I completely agree with Daitetsu when he writes, so rightly beyond and right through right and wrong ...



    Shikantaza is completely lacking an object of focus. The mirror does not need a focus to find the mirror. One must sit beyond and right through a "subject" and "object". There is no one to focus, no separate target to look toward.

    Gee, folks, in this Mahayana Way, ya gotta stop seeing things just one way.

    I posted something on another thread tonight about gift giving. It is about how we give a gift to a recipient but, at the same time, there is no gift, giver or givee. Moreover, nothing is lacking. If you get the logic of this, perhaps what I write above will make sense too (p 55 here).

    https://books.google.com.br/books?id...0empty&f=false

    Gassho, J

    Yup^^


    Gassho,
    Myosha sat today
    "Recognize suffering, remove suffering." - Shakyamuni Buddha when asked, "Uhm . . .what?"

  21. #21
    Return to clear space.

    Sat today
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by alan.r View Post
    Hi Tony. Yes! What you wrote right there, that question, it goes right through everything. It's in you. That question is it. Sit with that.

    Gassho,
    Alan
    sattoday
    ....nice Alan. That struck a chord!!!
    Sat today

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Anshu Bryson View Post
    dharmasponge,

    Finally, while this might not be my place, please let me remind you that this forum is not the place for 'blunt swords', but for "gentle speech"; you are much more likely to elicit a positive response through that method...

    sat today
    Hi,

    I wasn't being harsh I promise. I'm just pointing out that I (personally) am unable to resonate with what seem to have become colloquially known as 'Zen' responses - an example of which I was talking about. If someone thrust a banana in my face I'd likely have them arrested.

    I am by nature an analytical man, I enjoy the banter and the understanding that results. Nothing wrong with understanding is there?

    I get Jishins point re not wishing to embellish the ego. But to be honest it's impossible not to. I'd posit it was his ego responding.

    If that's the case then we might just as well give up now!

    Catch 22!
    Sat today

  24. #24
    Hi.

    I defer to this from the "beginner" series:

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...28Part-VIII%29

    I hope it helps.

    Gassho
    Meikyo
    SAT TODAY!
    ~ Please remember that I am very fallible.

    Gassho
    Meikyo

  25. #25
    Where does the mind wander to and from? It doesn't matter. It's not important.

    And yet it wanders.

    Where is the focus? Here.

    And yet it wanders.

    I love to learn, a longtime ponderer. I love a puzzle and seeing what I can do with some code. But don't go hungry ghost and let it get in the way. The consuming starts consuming you, even with thinky things like this. That's something I still have to watch myself with.

    It's the leaves in the Buddha's hand we're here for, if you know that tale. The rest? Doesn't matter. Irrelevant. I just try to let it go, like the thoughts in my head while sitting. And what a relief.

    Made sense to me. Not sure what I know, and I'm not gonna worry about it. Just gonna hit submit here and hope something is helpful. Always a beginner.


    Gassho,
    Stacy

    #SatToday
    Last edited by Stacy; 01-27-2015 at 09:22 PM.

  26. #26
    Yugen
    Guest
    When sitting in Shikantaza and the mind 'wanders' what does it wander from?

    Quote Originally Posted by alan.r View Post
    Hi Tony. Yes! What you wrote right there, that question, it goes right through everything. It's in you. That question is it. Sit with that.

    Gassho,
    Alan
    sattoday
    I have to emphasize what Alan siad here - this is the key question - and for each of us what we might discover is different. Tell us what you find when you wander off the reservation mate.

    Deep bows
    Yugen

  27. #27
    Joyo
    Guest
    Why does it matter where the mind wanders from?

    There are a lot of good responses here already. I, personally, like to keep my practice of shikantaza simple and not overthink it. As Rich said, just return to the clear space. Sometimes the open space is clearly there, other times it is clouded by layers and layers of thought. Just sit.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today
    Last edited by Joyo; 01-28-2015 at 12:17 AM.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by dharmasponge View Post
    Hi,

    I wasn't being harsh I promise. I'm just pointing out that I (personally) am unable to resonate with what seem to have become colloquially known as 'Zen' responses - an example of which I was talking about. If someone thrust a banana in my face I'd likely have them arrested.

    I am by nature an analytical man, I enjoy the banter and the understanding that results. Nothing wrong with understanding is there?

    I get Jishins point re not wishing to embellish the ego. But to be honest it's impossible not to. I'd posit it was his ego responding.

    If that's the case then we might just as well give up now!

    Catch 22!
    I am also quite analytical (both by nature and by training), so I can hear what you are saying.

    While I am also not a fan of what I refer to as "affected Zen-speak", commentaries from teachers and experienced practitioners are not simply an affectation, and can actually open the intuitive part of the mind if one lets them resonate a little. I'd urge you to swill them around a little, and fight the urge to immediately spit them out... ;-)

    I don't know if you were able to join Muho's session on the weekend; he did mention one point that has worked for me in the past, that, although the amount of time we sit doesn't necessarily matter, things often tend to sort themselves out a little better after maybe 25 minutes (an arbitrary figure; it could be more or less for each individual...). So, sometimes the answer might be to sit a little longer (another old nugget is that, if you haven't got time to sit 20 minutes, sit 40 minutes...!).

    Either way, follow the bouncing ball for a bit. Use the posture. Breathe. Sit. Don't expect 'results', particularly not immediate results. Don't over-think it.

    I am ranting now, not saying anything that hasn't already been said, so I'll sign off there. Just know that we all go through similar issues and phases; it's all part of the trip...

    Gassho,

    Bryson

    sat today

  29. #29
    Hi Tony,

    you are pretty good in catching the attention of the forum. You are asking questions - in my interpretation - like Koans. First: there is no answer. Second: if there is an answer you can say: "Yes, but....." And I also want to put this things in certain boxes. But they just do fit in for a short time. Then again, they jump out of the box and we want to find a new one, which fits better. It gives the Ego the food for his/her existence. I would say: if there are no words - no ego - no existence of I- then fear is the reaction. So we start again to think about the whole. For me the intelect gives us a feeling of safety. As long as we do a lot of things.
    Facing the wall it gets a crisis. But I do not think you should not ask. There is IMO notthing to "accept" but there are a lot of things, which cannot answered by anybody but yourself.

    I think, there was a hint to Muho´s Video. There he says something about his teacher and his teachers teacher: "You create your teacher and what you can learn." Something like that and a bit more about Muhos idea of his teacher. So, do not try to confuse yourself and the others when it is just for brain-satisfaction. Do so, if it comes from your heart. There is nobody, who can proof that. But so many good answers as you got......I am jealous....

    What I would like to know is your idea of an answer: "From where does is wander from when sitting?

    Gassho, Ernst
    sattoday
    p.s.: so the No was a very good answer from Jishin if I am allowed to say that.

  30. #30
    It does all come down to a mixture of instinctively feeling that Shikantaza is the way to go.....

    ....and bricking it in case I am wasting my time zoning out in some blurry attempt to avoid the hard work of Samatha/Vipassana.

    Fear.



    Sat Today
    Sat today

  31. #31
    bricking it in case I am wasting my time zoning out in some blurry attempt to avoid the hard work of Samatha/Vipassana.
    Actually, Tony, I think sitting with this non-doing is much harder work for you than vipassana would be!

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #sattoday

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokuu View Post
    Actually, Tony, I think sitting with this non-doing is much harder work for you than vipassana would be!

    Gassho
    Kokuu
    #sattoday

    Possibly - but sitting is not non-doing, its sitting.
    Sat today

  33. #33
    I am a little concerned by this thread all day, and wanted to put my finger on what it is.

    So, let me ask folks to truly examine one's sitting. Be careful and aware of what I am going to say, please!

    Please, please avoid all functionality, use of Zazen as some tool, thoughts of benefit, payoff and results, some bad place to go from, a better place to get to. There is still so much of that unintentionally running through descriptions here, with advice like "If you do this, then the good thing will eventually happen." It is a trap. One must radically drop all hope or need of benefit, payoff and result. Don't look to get something, don't think of Zazen as a tool to get it. Be the Mirror of Equanimity.

    Why?

    Counter-intuitive as it may sound, the Real Benefit, Payoff and Results of Zazen can only come through radically abandoning the tail chasing and hunt for payoff and results. (Otherwise, you are like a person standing in Times Square who feels lost and unable to find New York City! The more she keeps hunting, the more she is blinded to where she stands. She needs to stop and just open her eyes.) Counter-intuitive as it may sound, giving up all chasing (provided it is sufficiently to the marrow) --does not-- result in resignation, stagnation, blindly accepting all faults, wallowing in one's present mess. Quite the contrary. (If you think I am advising folks to just continue in ongoing ignorance and confusion, wallowing in their mess, I am not at all.) Rather, the "giving up of chasing" results in finding that which can only be found by being very still. In abandoning all running after change ... radical changes occur! The way to find peace and satisfaction is NOT by feeling dissatisfied that one lacks satisfaction, determined to find satisfaction somewhere down the road. It makes no sense whatsoever to hunt for satisfaction by being dissatisfied by satisfaction's absence, never satisfied by the absence of satisfaction. Rather, the way to find peace and satisfaction is simply to be satisfied here and at peace with that fact.

    If you do that, then the good thing will eventually happen. I promise. If you do that, Zazen is a most effective tool.

    Next, also counter-intuitive, one must sit fully and energetically in the Wholeness and Completeness of what is, feeling that there is not one thing in need of change, adding or taking away ... but NONETHELESS letting thoughts go and not latching on, not getting caught in or wallowing in excess or negative emotions.

    Why?

    Only by doing so does one realize clearly that there is nothing in need of changing and never was! Only by fixing these things about us do we taste that there was never anything to fix!

    Next, never forget to sit Zazen as Sacred Action, the one place to be, one action to do in all the universe in that moment! Folks do not emphasize this anywhere enough in their sitting (as if it would suddenly be too "religious" or something. But it is not just some silly ritual or matter of faith, not anything superstitious.) Truly, a minute of sitting is a minute of Buddha Sitting!

    Why?

    Simply because we human beings rarely perceive the little things we do each day as so whole, complete and sacred. We feel that things are okay at best, substandard at worst, and that something is always lacking or needs more to be added on. We do not know how to sit still, in the Total Fruition of Just This, Yippee! Please sit in the Sacredness and Wholeness and Buddhaness of Just Sitting. If you fail to do so, then sitting while abandoning "all functionality, thoughts of benefit, payoff and results", will in fact result in mere resignation, stagnation and wallowing. One must sit in energetic "This is Buddha" to avoid that dead end.

    Kinda get it? I know it is kinda crazy, and seems sometimes like it doesn't make sense. But this is Zen after all, which don't always make "sense." It is, in fact, very functional and goal oriented, but only when one stops thinking in such terms.

    Gassho, J

    SatToday
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-29-2015 at 02:15 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  34. #34
    Thank you, Jundo

    Gassho
    Meishin
    Sat today

  35. #35
    Joyo
    Guest
    Thank you, Jundo. As a forever beginner, I cannot read this advice too often. It is lifechanging.

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today

  36. #36
    Oh, Joyo and Rich.

    You two keep emphasizing the simplicity of your sitting ...

    I, personally, like to keep my practice of shikantaza simple and not overthink it. As Rich said, just return to the clear space. Sometimes the open space is clearly there, other times it is clouded by layers and layers of thought. Just sit.
    That's fine! That's the way!

    Of course, just never forget how Whole, Self-Fulfilling and Sacred just that is, simple as pie. If sitting with that energy and attitude, then simple is the best!

    Gassho, J
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  37. #37


    KISS, keep it simple...silly.


    Gassho,
    Stacy

    #SatToday

  38. #38
    Mp
    Guest
    Thank you Jundo, simplicity in it's simplest form has always been a good friend. =)

    Gassho
    Shingen

    SatToday

  39. #39
    Joyo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Jundo View Post
    Oh, Joyo and Rich.

    You two keep emphasizing the simplicity of your sitting ...



    That's fine! That's the way!

    Of course, just never forget how Whole, Self-Fulfilling and Sacred just that is, simple as pie. If sitting with that energy and attitude, then simple is the best!

    Gassho, J
    Oh Jundo, you are a smart one, because with everything that you said, the one thing I thought I could work on is to view my sitting as "sacred." Is it wrong to have the attitude of just letting it go, not fretting over the busy mind? I sit and my mind races, but I just do my best with a "come what may" attitude. (your blender analogy often comes to mind while I am sitting) I don't want to get stressed over my monkey-mind. It is there, and other times it is not. Does that seem too carefree of an approach?

    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today

  40. #40
    Thank you Jundo.

    Gassho,

    Risho
    -sattoday

    Edit -- my "struggle" is that I know that most of the time I sit for myself and not others, that I'm trying to use zazen instead of being used by zazen. I have to laugh when I hear the old distinction of Hinayana and Mahayana and how Hinayana is not as "good" because it only is for the good of oneself. But in a way, don't we all come the practice as Hinayana? Anyway, just rambling.
    Last edited by Risho; 01-28-2015 at 08:04 PM.

  41. #41
    Jundo, thanks for the reminder. Being present for this sacredness is truly joyous.
    Joyo, I think you are headed in the right direction

    Sat today
    _/_
    Rich
    MUHYO
    無 (MU, Emptiness) and 氷 (HYO, Ice) ... Emptiness Ice ...

    https://instagram.com/notmovingmind

  42. #42
    Thank you Jundo for your wonderful teaching here!


    ..sat2day•

  43. #43
    Thank you for this teaching Jundo.
    Gassho
    Heisoku
    Sat 'just sitting' today
    Heisoku 平 息
    Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

  44. #44
    Hi all,

    Too...Many....Words! Brain....Will....Explode! Must....Find....Zafu!

    (To be read in a William Shatner voice while appearing to be tossed back and forth by an invisible force).

    I don't care if it's a cliche...just sit. Please?

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    Sat today

  45. #45
    But of course!

    Gassho,

    Bryson

    sat today

  46. #46
    Joyo
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho View Post
    Hi all,

    Too...Many....Words! Brain....Will....Explode! Must....Find....Zafu!

    (To be read in a William Shatner voice while appearing to be tossed back and forth by an invisible force).

    I don't care if it's a cliche...just sit. Please?

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    Sat today


    Gassho,
    Joyo
    sat today

  47. #47
    An interview (thanks Aske for posting!) at Tricycle with the great Shohaku Okumura Roshi (student of Kodo Uchiyama and 'Homeless' Kodo Sawaki Roshis at Antaiji) touches upon this. Folks who have been around the Shikantaza block have heard this kind of thing before many times, but always good to hear again.

    http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...l=1#post147384

    Okumura speaks about Sawaki's famous saying that Zazen is "good for nothing".

    In the world, it’s always about winning or losing, plus or minus. Yet in Zazen, it’s about nothing. It’s good for nothing. That’s why it is the greatest and most all-inclusive thing there is.

    ...

    When somebody asks me what zazen is good for, I say that zazen isn’t good for anything at all. And then some say that in that case they’d rather stop doing zazen. But what’s running around satisfying your desires good for? What is gambling good for? And dancing? What is it good for to get worked up over winning or losing in baseball? It’s all good for absolutely nothing! That’s why nothing is as sensible as sitting silently in zazen. In the world, “good for nothing” just means that you can’t make money out of it.

    Often people ask me how many years they have to practice zazen before it shows results. Zazen has no results. You won’t get anything at all out of zazen.

    ...

    What’s zazen good for? Absolutely nothing! This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you’re truly practicing what’s good for nothing. Until then, your zazen is really good for nothing.

    You say you want to become a better person by doing zazen. Zazen isn’t about learning how to be a person. Zazen is to stop being a person.

    Zazen is unsatisfying. Unsatisfying for whom? For the ordinary person. People are never satisfied.

    http://antaiji.org/archives/eng/kodo...i-to-you.shtml
    Okumura recounts how, years ago, he worked as a farm hand picking berries. There were delicious, valuable blueberries, but also worthless, inedible "dogberries" that had to be separated out so that they would not get mixed in. It strikes me that this is much as we sit during Zazen, letting the "dogberry" thoughts and emotions go without plucking. However, what finally struck Okumura is that, even though we do not love them, and consider them like weeds to human eyes, the dogberries are also "good" as worthless dogberries, and have their place in the sun as much as luscious blueberries! Blueberries just do their blueberry thing, dogberries are just dogberries. When human evaluations are dropped, all are beautiful! Each just nothing, each a treasure! When we pluck them, they do not go anywhere ... when we leave them, they do not remain.

    Nonetheless, do not pick the dogberries of life as best one can!

    He can explain much better than me.

    ---------------------------------------

    [Q] You just mentioned “good-for-nothing zazen.” I assume that was a reference to one of Sawaki’s sayings: “Zazen is good for nothing.” I think I understand the meaning of that. Zazen has no ulterior purpose; it’s not a means to an end. Yet surely zazen is good for something—otherwise we wouldn’t do it and Sawaki Roshi wouldn’t have encouraged people to practice it.

    The first time I heard this English expression, “good for nothing,” I was living in Massachusetts. One summer, to support our practice, we worked for a farmer harvesting blueberries. There were some high school students working there too, as a summer job during their vacation. There was a part of the field were another kind of berries were growing, called dogberries. The students were not very careful, so sometimes they mixed dogberries in with the blueberries. The farmer was always shouting: “Stop picking those good-for-nothing dogberries!” I really liked this expression, “good for nothing,” and I thought, “What’s the difference between those good-for-nothing berries and the blueberries?” Dogberries are not edible, but they are pretty. Blueberries are pretty, too, but they are also edible, so they have market value. That means they’re “good for something.” Dogberries have no market value so we consider them “good for nothing.” But when we put aside our human evaluation, then blueberry and dogberry are the same. They are both pretty and just live to continue their lives. So I thought, dogberries are good but for nothing. That’s why I translated Sawaki Roshi’s expression that way: “Zazen is good for nothing.” To me, this means zazen is good—but not for something. It is good in itself. I think this is very important. It is the same as what Bodhi-dharma said when the Emperor Wu told him he [the emperor] had helped Buddhism by creating hundreds of temples and monasteries and asked what karmic rewards he could expect. Bodhidharma said, “No merit at all.”

    Soto Zen is sometimes talked about as Zen without satori [sudden realization or enlightenment]. Is this correct? How does the distinction between gradual and sudden enlightenment apply to Dogen’s Zen?

    This depends on the definition of satori. Dogen Zenji often said, “Practice and enlightenment, or satori, are one.” That means our practice of zazen is itself enlightenment. In that sense, this is very sudden. When we sit, enlightenment is there. But we still need to continue this practice endlessly, so that within the process of practice, we become a deeply matured person, and that is very gradual. So in our practice, both gradual and sudden enlightenment are there.

    ... And when Dogen then said, “Shu and sho, or practice and verification, are one,” that means, within our practice, this verification is already there. But that means our practice is itself the verification of the truth of the teaching. And that teaching means that we are living together with all beings, interconnected with all beings, and when we sit we really become part of this network of interdependent origination. That’s why Dogen said this practice is itself verification, and in this case, verification is what satori means: we really see that we are connected with all beings. This awakening that we are together with all beings is satori, in my understanding. And within our practice of zazen, this satori is already actualized.

    This is very different from the commonly held idea of satori that D. T. Suzuki wrote about in his books: “the sudden flashing into consciousness of a new truth hitherto undreamed of.”

    Yes, that is the Rinzai approach of koan practice, where satori is the goal of the practice, something we need to achieve. Dogen’s approach is a little—actually, not a little but very different. Dogen said, “We don’t practice to attain enlightenment, we practice being confirmed by enlightenment.”

    That’s why it’s good for nothing.

    Yes.


    Last edited by Jundo; 01-29-2015 at 03:36 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Dosho View Post
    Hi all,

    Too...Many....Words! Brain....Will....Explode! Must....Find....Zafu!

    (To be read in a William Shatner voice while appearing to be tossed back and forth by an invisible force).

    I don't care if it's a cliche...just sit. Please?

    Gassho,
    Dosho

    Sat today
    LOL no offense to anyone and their hard work thinking and writing in this post, but I am with Dosho.. my head hurts!

    But you know I'm going to have to read through all this 3 or 4 times anyway.

    Gassho
    Ishin
    Sat Today

  49. #49
    Hi Jundo,

    Please, please avoid all functionality, use of Zazen as some tool, thoughts of benefit, payoff and results, some bad place to go from, a better place to get to. There is still so much of that unintentionally running through descriptions here, with advice like "If you do this, then the good thing will eventually happen." It is a trap. One must radically drop all hope or need of benefit, payoff and result. Don't look to get something, don't think of Zazen as a tool to get it. Be the Mirror of Equanimity.
    Thank you. I think, that I fall in this trap all the time.

    Gassho, Ernst
    sat today

  50. #50
    NOTE FROM JUNDO: I SOMEHOW ERASED PART OF THIS POST BY ACCIDENT TRYING TO RESPOND! WELL, THAT HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE! MY APOLOGIES!! TONY, PLEASE PUT BACK WHAT YOU SAID!!!

    I guess I can see the radical(ness) of letting go of everything - in particular dropping the aspiration for a pay off. It's hard to see though how that can really ever be done without the quietest of whispers in the darkest corner of my mind saying "payday soon".

    If that was completely absent I'd struggle to sit at all. There's a belief that's a part of my DNA now that says there is liberation from suffering and that is the payday available to us all through which ever conduit we choose....even the one that drops everything

    The Method of no Method......is still a method - no?
    Last edited by Jundo; 01-29-2015 at 04:23 PM.
    Sat today

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